Angel is pretty much terrible throughout, although it's watchable after the first season. Then season 5 makes it all worth it, not only with an amazing season-long arc that redefines "ballsy" on the part of the writers, but with one home run episode after another. Next to Firefly it's the best season of TV Whedon has ever produced.
As for the comics, the Angel comic is actually quite good. It's the Buffy comic that's terrible, a horrible confusing unfun mish-mash of all the stuff Joss Whedon has ever wanted to do but couldn't afford on a television budget. Even Whedon has admitted he should have reigned it in a bit. Basically it ignores the characters in favor of ridiculous plot twists and overwraught action. And it's non-canon with the Angel comics for a reason, too.
So much terrible here. Firstly, Angel was consistently good throughout. Far better then post-S3 Buffy. (Although Buffy still had some serious highlights)
Secondly, the Angel comics are terrible and are a good example (along with the stuff for the Buffy animated series and some other shit) of why budget contraints were the best thing to happen to these shows.
Things season 4 did to me that made me hate it:
-The Beast is boring. He's boring-looking, he's a boring character, the fights are boring, there's absolutely nothing of interest about it in the slightest.
-Cordelia is consistently sidelined, and in ways that are really really annoying and pointless. I gather the writers didn't have a choice, but still.
-4 is Connor's only full season, and while he inspires great reactions in everybody as a plot point, he's really really annoying as a whiny teen. I continually want to slap him and make him listen to perfectly reasonable explanations of Angel's (and others') motivations so he would understand. Whinging git.
-The Angelus bits are great, but they don't add up to much of anything.
-"Oh ho! In reality, everything you have experienced up to this point was merely in service of this precise plot development! Pay no attention to the ret-conning behind the curtain!"
-The Jasmine ending feels AWFUL to sit through. It's Buffy's "Superstar" all over again, but for longer. Wouldn't it be fun if all our favorite cast members were mind-controlled and their personalities replaced by one-note simpering? No. No it would not.
-Aside from that, episode to episode it's not very good. There are a few exceptions--the reappearance of Faith, the opening episode, the Angel/Angelus dream sequence episode--but overall, even the filler is mediocre.
- The Beast is awesome. He's great at the beginning as an unstoppable force. The whole of Apocalypse Nowish, with the fight at the end and everything, is amazing.
- Connor is a whiny git, but that's the point. He's a fucking maladjusted teenager after all. And his arc with Angel is incredibly tragic and well done.
- I don't get what your problem with the Jasmine bit was. I mean, it involves mind-control/altered-personalities so it can't be good? Wha? The whole point is the "big evil" is world peace at the cost of free will. It's a great dilemma with Angel ultimately plunging the world (or at least, California) into at least temporary anarchy
- The Cordelia stuff in the middle and the retconning are the real weak points and for all that it weakens the story, it's also not really their fault. Still, it detracts from the season.
- also you forgot Gwen as the worst thing that went nowhere in that season
Oh man, looking over the episode list for S4 in wikipedia...
...man, that was one fuckawful season of television.
Huh?
- Deep Down, Spin the Bottle, Apocalypse, Nowish, Habeas Corpses, Soulless, The Magic Bullet, Sacrifice, Peace Out, Home
All good to great to at least funny episodes.
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JuliusCaptain of Serenityon my shipRegistered Userregular
The Conor/Cordelia madness was icky, we all get that. But, more important, the season just does not make any fucking sense. Like, what the fuck was the point of Jasmine bringing back Angelus?
To keep everyone distracted. To keep them running in circles so they don't stop and think about what's going on.
Once everything is dealt with and back in order, everyone quickly sits down, notices what's going on and the jig is up.
Yeah but on the other hand it didn't seem like they needed that on account of them all acting really dumb all the time. Season 4 was actually pretty great but damn did it include a lot of "oh let's not even think about doing anything that makes much sense"
To be fair, Jasmine came out of the fucking left field so any smart thing the gang could've done wouldn't have mattered.
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ArchonexNo hard feelings, right?Registered Userregular
edited July 2011
You should like Connor for how his S4 arc and S5 lead-in ends.
Watching him go from
a maladjusted teenager, to being broken so badly that he makes Wolfram and Hart's employees look nice, to actually getting a bit of redemption and acknowledging his father (Right before the assumed heroic sacrifice.) is pretty nice.
Though on a first viewing you probably won't appreciate the awesomeness until the end. They actually give you a visual, in depth example, on how someone can become so screwed up as Wolfram and Hart's employee's are, without just making the reasoning behind it "olol evil".
Also, Buffy did indeed become a bitch. Though I always attributed that, to some extent, to Sarah Michelle Gellar becoming a bit of a bitch, and the writers going with what worked best. The few stories i've heard of her from that time, say that she was massively stuck up over her role in a leading TV show.
I mean, it's not like she had that many excuses past the initial screw-ups. Even Spike occasionally popped in to tell her to stop being so goddamned annoying and self-centered. And her (significantly weaker) cohorts, like Xander, went through shit just as bad, if not worse, in some cases, and kept a bright face. Except for that incident with Willow.
But really, given how screwed up that arc was. I don't think anyone can blame Willow for doing her best Dr. Doom impersonation.
I don't get people's problems with the redemption of various characters. (And by people, I think I mean enlightenedbum.)
Spike attempted to rape Buffy because he was an undead embodiment of evil. His entire existence once he was chipped was hell for him, and he overrode his fundamental nature through sheer force of will. And when he ultimately realized that was impossible, he went on a quest to get his soul back. I can understand why Buffy, rape victim, might not have sympathized with his plight. I can't understand why an objective viewer wouldn't understand that, though.
Willow was granted redemption by her extremely close friends because they were extremely close friends, and because she was basically driven insane by grief and dark magicks.
Andrew was really never accepted by the gang until arguably the very end, but they kept him around because the alternative was to kill him and they weren't murderers. And, in the end, he's genuinely repentent and does what he can to aid in the effort.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
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ArchonexNo hard feelings, right?Registered Userregular
I don't get people's problems with the redemption of various characters. (And by people, I think I mean enlightenedbum.)
Spike attempted to rape Buffy because he was an undead embodiment of evil. His entire existence once he was chipped was hell for him, and he overrode his fundamental nature through sheer force of will. And when he ultimately realized that was impossible, he went on a quest to get his soul back. I can understand why Buffy, rape victim, might not have sympathized with his plight. I can't understand why an objective viewer wouldn't understand that, though.
Willow was granted redemption by her extremely close friends because they were extremely close friends, and because she was basically driven insane by grief and dark magicks.
Andrew was really never accepted by the gang until arguably the very end, but they kept him around because the alternative was to kill him and they weren't murderers. And, in the end, he's genuinely repentent and does what he can to aid in the effort.
The thing about Buffy and Spike is. They sort of imply that vampires, when they're made, aren't entirely in control of their actions. These aren't Anne Rice style vampires. They're "unholy abomination of the night" vampires, with all the negative aspect's of their personality magnified.
Buffy didn't need to suddenly leap into his arms after he tried to make amends, and make things right. But she also didn't exactly need to treat him like he was arch-enemy number one, and lock him up in the basement. The dude was fixed. He had compassion. Hell, if anything, he was more of a hero, by the end of the series, then Angel actually ever was. For how much she tries to play herself to be the hero, she really is not good at the whole "heroic compassion" thing.
And like Spike loves to point out, Angel only feels bad about what he did because the curse made him feel bad, and have definably human emotions. Without the guilt that was forced onto him, odds are he'd just be another (very effective) monster, albeit one that would probably be a bit more relatable then Angelus. Angel had his redemption forced onto him. Spike suffered and actively sought out his.
Archonex on
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AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
- The Beast is awesome. He's great at the beginning as an unstoppable force. The whole of Apocalypse Nowish, with the fight at the end and everything, is amazing.
- Connor is a whiny git, but that's the point. He's a fucking maladjusted teenager after all. And his arc with Angel is incredibly tragic and well done.
- I don't get what your problem with the Jasmine bit was. I mean, it involves mind-control/altered-personalities so it can't be good? Wha? The whole point is the "big evil" is world peace at the cost of free will. It's a great dilemma with Angel ultimately plunging the world (or at least, California) into at least temporary anarchy
- The Cordelia stuff in the middle and the retconning are the real weak points and for all that it weakens the story, it's also not really their fault. Still, it detracts from the season.
- also you forgot Gwen as the worst thing that went nowhere in that season
-Unstoppable forces are awesome. Unfortunately, the Beast was an immoveable wall. Much less interesting to watch heroes throw themselves repeatedly at something that can't be beat.
-I get that Connor's character is consistent, and I like the idea of the character, and young Pete Campbell is actually kind of a heartthrob. I just find the way Connor behaves to be frustrating and grating. He's great at the end of the show, once he's been fixed; but until then, his best moments are as a baby or getting a serious talking-to from Angel (ala the first episode of season 4).
-More than most shows, you watch Whedon shows for the characters. Watching an entire cast walk around brainwashed is essentially the same as watching an episode where they're all in peril offscreen. I found it tremendously frustrating. I agree that the ideas behind it are fascinating, and actually that's one problem Angel never had--the thematics are almost always really interesting. But sitting through the actual episodes were excruciating until the gang was back in their right heads.
-Gwen was in that season? Was that the electric love interest that never went anywhere or the werewolf love interest that never went anywhere? I get those pointless subplots mixed up. I know she wasn't the cop love interest that never went anywhere... (I'm kidding... slightly.)
As to Buffy's inability to deal gracefully with post S4 events:
Up until mid-S5, Buffy had the support of her mom. No matter what happened, Mom would keep her safe. And then her mom just up and dies with barely any warning, and Buffy realizes that she has to figure out how to be a grown-up. While, you know, also making sure bad guys don't cause Armageddon. I can see her being a bit emo in the face of all that.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
And like Spike loves to point out, Angel only feels bad about what he did because the curse made him feel bad, and have definably human emotions. Without the guilt that was forced onto him, odds are he'd just be another (very effective) monster, albeit one that would probably be a bit more relatable then Angelus. Angel had his redemption forced onto him. Spike suffered and actively sought out his.
I mostly agree, but I thought Angel just felt bad as a side-effect of having a soul. Because you couldn't have a soul and not feel awful about all of the horrific things he'd done. I don't recall the curse having a specific and separate guilt-feature.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
I mean, it's not like she had that many excuses past the initial screw-ups. Even Spike occasionally popped in to tell her to stop being so goddamned annoying and self-centered. And her (significantly weaker) cohorts, like Xander, went through shit just as bad, if not worse, in some cases, and kept a bright face. Except for that incident with Willow.
Yeeaah, I don't remember any of them dying, being ripped from heaven, then having to dig themselves out of a casket and forced to take care of all of the people within the household and then more people she barely even knows while dealing with a sis who cannot act her age for the life of her (until season 7). If anything, Willow and Tara got a free ride (really, what were they living on while Buffy was gone). Willow was getting out of control and mind wiped (and in some instances fans would say even raped for the sex they had in Once More with Feeling) Tara and then lost Tara. Xander...well the only thing Xander did was screw up his relationship with Anya at the worst time ever and then lost an eye.
Yeah, I really do not know what you'd want Buffy to do with all of that on her.
I mean, it's not like she had that many excuses past the initial screw-ups. Even Spike occasionally popped in to tell her to stop being so goddamned annoying and self-centered. And her (significantly weaker) cohorts, like Xander, went through shit just as bad, if not worse, in some cases, and kept a bright face. Except for that incident with Willow.
Yeeaah, I don't remember any of them dying, being ripped from heaven, then having to dig themselves out of a casket and forced to take care of all of the people within the household and then more people she barely even knows while dealing with a sis who cannot act her age for the life of her (until season 7). If anything, Willow and Tara got a free ride (really, what were they living on while Buffy was gone). Willow was getting out of control and mind wiped (and in some instances fans would say even raped for the sex they had in Once More with Feeling) Tara and then lost Tara. Xander...well the only thing Xander did was screw up his relationship with Anya at the worst time ever and then lost an eye.
Yeah, I really do not know what you'd want Buffy to do with all of that on her.
I must say that I am loving this thread though
Did you completely forget all of the work done to show how Xander is not only the heart, but the foundation of the entire Scooby gang? Without him, shit collapses.
Xander is the best, but Wesley became my favorite character by the end of Angel. His entire arc was... well, simply amazing. Everyone else had a fairly straight line I feel.
I mean, it's not like she had that many excuses past the initial screw-ups. Even Spike occasionally popped in to tell her to stop being so goddamned annoying and self-centered. And her (significantly weaker) cohorts, like Xander, went through shit just as bad, if not worse, in some cases, and kept a bright face. Except for that incident with Willow.
Yeeaah, I don't remember any of them dying, being ripped from heaven, then having to dig themselves out of a casket and forced to take care of all of the people within the household and then more people she barely even knows while dealing with a sis who cannot act her age for the life of her (until season 7). If anything, Willow and Tara got a free ride (really, what were they living on while Buffy was gone). Willow was getting out of control and mind wiped (and in some instances fans would say even raped for the sex they had in Once More with Feeling) Tara and then lost Tara. Xander...well the only thing Xander did was screw up his relationship with Anya at the worst time ever and then lost an eye.
Yeah, I really do not know what you'd want Buffy to do with all of that on her.
I must say that I am loving this thread though
Did you completely forget all of the work done to show how Xander is not only the heart, but the foundation of the entire Scooby gang? Without him, shit collapses.
Xander is the best, but Wesley became my favorite character by the end of Angel. His entire arc was... well, simply amazing. Everyone else had a fairly straight line I feel.
Xander
was supposed to be gone by season 5. So I think they would have survived without him if he left
per the actor. Xander may have been the heart, but he was Background Boy for the most part
until the comics where they suddenly made him badass? Seriously, what the hell Joss.
Edit: Also, how does being the heart of the group make him go through shit just as bad as the slayer? ALMOST everything bad that happened to him, happened because of an action he took. Bad things happened to Buffy because she was Born That Way. :P
Mim on
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ArchonexNo hard feelings, right?Registered Userregular
And like Spike loves to point out, Angel only feels bad about what he did because the curse made him feel bad, and have definably human emotions. Without the guilt that was forced onto him, odds are he'd just be another (very effective) monster, albeit one that would probably be a bit more relatable then Angelus. Angel had his redemption forced onto him. Spike suffered and actively sought out his.
I mostly agree, but I thought Angel just felt bad as a side-effect of having a soul. Because you couldn't have a soul and not feel awful about all of the horrific things he'd done. I don't recall the curse having a specific and separate guilt-feature.
I may be wrong, but I think it was implied a few times, but never outright stated. "Gypsy Magic" was pretty much a code word for macguffin in Angel and Buffy anyways.
If nothing else, Spike seems remarkably cool for someone who spent the last few centuries terrorizing the world. If pressed, he'll certainly admit that he has some regret for what he's done. But as he likes to point out every now and then, nothing he does will make it right, and he's not going to dwell on what he can't fix.
Angel, by contrast, seems to have a somewhat unhealthy obsession with the concept of redemption. And it's not like he was a very good person before he was vamped. Spike would probably beat him every time on which of them was a better person, pre-vamping.
About the only time he really started freaking out was when he thought he was being dragged to Hell. And, really, those were some really screwed up episodes toward's the end. I can't blame him for freaking out.
Edit: Xander was always a bit of a hidden badass. Remember that episode where he unknowingly saved the world while Buffy and co were freaking out and fighting a different world destroying threat in the background all episode? It was both hilarious, and awesome.
I wish I could remember what episode that was.
Edit 2: Ah, it's the Zeppo. I need to watch that one again.
- The Beast is awesome. He's great at the beginning as an unstoppable force. The whole of Apocalypse Nowish, with the fight at the end and everything, is amazing.
- Connor is a whiny git, but that's the point. He's a fucking maladjusted teenager after all. And his arc with Angel is incredibly tragic and well done.
- I don't get what your problem with the Jasmine bit was. I mean, it involves mind-control/altered-personalities so it can't be good? Wha? The whole point is the "big evil" is world peace at the cost of free will. It's a great dilemma with Angel ultimately plunging the world (or at least, California) into at least temporary anarchy
- The Cordelia stuff in the middle and the retconning are the real weak points and for all that it weakens the story, it's also not really their fault. Still, it detracts from the season.
- also you forgot Gwen as the worst thing that went nowhere in that season
-Unstoppable forces are awesome. Unfortunately, the Beast was an immoveable wall. Much less interesting to watch heroes throw themselves repeatedly at something that can't be beat.
-I get that Connor's character is consistent, and I like the idea of the character, and young Pete Campbell is actually kind of a heartthrob. I just find the way Connor behaves to be frustrating and grating. He's great at the end of the show, once he's been fixed; but until then, his best moments are as a baby or getting a serious talking-to from Angel (ala the first episode of season 4).
-More than most shows, you watch Whedon shows for the characters. Watching an entire cast walk around brainwashed is essentially the same as watching an episode where they're all in peril offscreen. I found it tremendously frustrating. I agree that the ideas behind it are fascinating, and actually that's one problem Angel never had--the thematics are almost always really interesting. But sitting through the actual episodes were excruciating until the gang was back in their right heads.
-Gwen was in that season? Was that the electric love interest that never went anywhere or the werewolf love interest that never went anywhere? I get those pointless subplots mixed up. I know she wasn't the cop love interest that never went anywhere... (I'm kidding... slightly.)
Oh man, so true. I never really connected those three pointless bits.
And like Spike loves to point out, Angel only feels bad about what he did because the curse made him feel bad, and have definably human emotions. Without the guilt that was forced onto him, odds are he'd just be another (very effective) monster, albeit one that would probably be a bit more relatable then Angelus. Angel had his redemption forced onto him. Spike suffered and actively sought out his.
I mostly agree, but I thought Angel just felt bad as a side-effect of having a soul. Because you couldn't have a soul and not feel awful about all of the horrific things he'd done. I don't recall the curse having a specific and separate guilt-feature.
I may be wrong, but I think it was implied a few times, but never outright stated. "Gypsy Magic" was pretty much a code word for macguffin in Angel and Buffy anyways.
If nothing else, Spike seems remarkably cool for someone who spent the last few centuries terrorizing the world. If pressed, he'll certainly admit that he has some regret for what he's done. But as he likes to point out every now and then, nothing he does will make it right, and he's not going to dwell on what he can't fix.
Angel, by contrast, seems to have a somewhat unhealthy obsession with the concept of redemption. And it's not like he was a very good person before he was vamped. Spike would probably beat him every time on which of them was a better person, pre-vamping.
About the only time he really started freaking out was when he thought he was being dragged to Hell. And, really, those were some really screwed up episodes toward's the end. I can't blame him for freaking out.
Edit: Xander was always a bit of a hidden badass. Remember that episode where he unknowingly saved the world while Buffy and co were freaking out and fighting a different threat in the background all episode? It was both hilarious, and awesome.
I wish I could remember what episode that was.
The Zeppo. One of the five or so best episodes, by far.
...but Wesley became my favorite character by the end of Angel. His entire arc was... well, simply amazing. Everyone else had a fairly straight line I feel.
I hated Wesley so hard in Buffy, that I was actively angry when he showed up on Angel. Of course, by the end he was second only to Lorne as my favorite on that show.
And like Spike loves to point out, Angel only feels bad about what he did because the curse made him feel bad, and have definably human emotions. Without the guilt that was forced onto him, odds are he'd just be another (very effective) monster, albeit one that would probably be a bit more relatable then Angelus. Angel had his redemption forced onto him. Spike suffered and actively sought out his.
I mostly agree, but I thought Angel just felt bad as a side-effect of having a soul. Because you couldn't have a soul and not feel awful about all of the horrific things he'd done. I don't recall the curse having a specific and separate guilt-feature.
I may be wrong, but I think it was implied a few times, but never outright stated. "Gypsy Magic" was pretty much a code word for macguffin in Angel and Buffy anyways.
If nothing else, Spike seems remarkably cool for someone who spent the last few centuries terrorizing the world. If pressed, he'll certainly admit that he has some regret for what he's done. But as he likes to point out every now and then, nothing he does will make it right, and he's not going to dwell on what he can't fix.
Angel, by contrast, seems to have a somewhat unhealthy obsession with the concept of redemption. And it's not like he was a very good person before he was vamped. Spike would probably beat him every time on which of them was a better person, pre-vamping.
About the only time he really started freaking out was when he thought he was being dragged to Hell. And, really, those were some really screwed up episodes toward's the end. I can't blame him for freaking out.
Edit: Xander was always a bit of a hidden badass. Remember that episode where he unknowingly saved the world while Buffy and co were freaking out and fighting a different threat in the background all episode? It was both hilarious, and awesome.
I wish I could remember what episode that was.
The Zeppo in season 3. But that's really the last time we get to see Xander be badass until the comics.
And like Spike loves to point out, Angel only feels bad about what he did because the curse made him feel bad, and have definably human emotions. Without the guilt that was forced onto him, odds are he'd just be another (very effective) monster, albeit one that would probably be a bit more relatable then Angelus. Angel had his redemption forced onto him. Spike suffered and actively sought out his.
I mostly agree, but I thought Angel just felt bad as a side-effect of having a soul. Because you couldn't have a soul and not feel awful about all of the horrific things he'd done. I don't recall the curse having a specific and separate guilt-feature.
I may be wrong, but I think it was implied a few times, but never outright stated. "Gypsy Magic" was pretty much a code word for macguffin in Angel and Buffy anyways.
If nothing else, Spike seems remarkably cool for someone who spent the last few centuries terrorizing the world. If pressed, he'll certainly admit that he has some regret for what he's done. But as he likes to point out every now and then, nothing he does will make it right, and he's not going to dwell on what he can't fix.
Angel, by contrast, seems to have a somewhat unhealthy obsession with the concept of redemption. And it's not like he was a very good person before he was vamped. Spike would probably beat him every time on which of them was a better person, pre-vamping.
About the only time he really started freaking out was when he thought he was being dragged to Hell. And, really, those were some really screwed up episodes toward's the end. I can't blame him for freaking out.
Edit: Xander was always a bit of a hidden badass. Remember that episode where he unknowingly saved the world while Buffy and co were freaking out and fighting a different threat in the background all episode? It was both hilarious, and awesome.
I wish I could remember what episode that was.
The zeppo. But yeah I don't think Xanders gets particularly crazy in the comic. He's still only an alright fighter and mostly keeps everyone together. Nothing he does seems out of character for someone who was a part time Vamp hunter for 7 years and then went full time. But then I kinda like the comics. They arn't perfect but I think there are some good arcs there. The one with dracula for example.
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ArchonexNo hard feelings, right?Registered Userregular
And like Spike loves to point out, Angel only feels bad about what he did because the curse made him feel bad, and have definably human emotions. Without the guilt that was forced onto him, odds are he'd just be another (very effective) monster, albeit one that would probably be a bit more relatable then Angelus. Angel had his redemption forced onto him. Spike suffered and actively sought out his.
I mostly agree, but I thought Angel just felt bad as a side-effect of having a soul. Because you couldn't have a soul and not feel awful about all of the horrific things he'd done. I don't recall the curse having a specific and separate guilt-feature.
I may be wrong, but I think it was implied a few times, but never outright stated. "Gypsy Magic" was pretty much a code word for macguffin in Angel and Buffy anyways.
If nothing else, Spike seems remarkably cool for someone who spent the last few centuries terrorizing the world. If pressed, he'll certainly admit that he has some regret for what he's done. But as he likes to point out every now and then, nothing he does will make it right, and he's not going to dwell on what he can't fix.
Angel, by contrast, seems to have a somewhat unhealthy obsession with the concept of redemption. And it's not like he was a very good person before he was vamped. Spike would probably beat him every time on which of them was a better person, pre-vamping.
About the only time he really started freaking out was when he thought he was being dragged to Hell. And, really, those were some really screwed up episodes toward's the end. I can't blame him for freaking out.
Edit: Xander was always a bit of a hidden badass. Remember that episode where he unknowingly saved the world while Buffy and co were freaking out and fighting a different threat in the background all episode? It was both hilarious, and awesome.
I wish I could remember what episode that was.
The Zeppo. One of the five or so best episodes, by far.
...but Wesley became my favorite character by the end of Angel. His entire arc was... well, simply amazing. Everyone else had a fairly straight line I feel.
I hated Wesley so hard in Buffy, that I was actively angry when he showed up on Angel. Of course, by the end he was second only to Lorne as my favorite on that show.
Wesley gets fucking awesome by Season 5. He starts the season out by
infiltrating the heart of evil on earth, commando style, and ends it taking out frigging Lucifer.
Which is simultaneously awesome, sad, and probably one of the actor's best performances in the series' entire run. Wish I could see the last scene on the rooftop again. Wesley is one cold son of a bitch when it comes to getting the job done.
Even if he'll be so physically disgusted at himself and what he's done, that he ends up drunkenly staggering over to a nearby vent and pukes into it, after it's all over.
Also, I wish they elaborated on just who the hell that was at the end. That was a great loose plot thread, that helped establish that there were other good guy organizations out there aside from the Scoobies and Angel.
Which is simultaneously awesome, sad, and probably one of the actor's best performances in the series' entire run. Wish I could see the last scene on the rooftop again. Wesley is one cold son of a bitch when it comes to getting the job done.
Netflix has it all streaming
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ArchonexNo hard feelings, right?Registered Userregular
Which is simultaneously awesome, sad, and probably one of the actor's best performances in the series' entire run. Wish I could see the last scene on the rooftop again. Wesley is one cold son of a bitch when it comes to getting the job done.
Netflix has it all streaming
I just watched it. The name of the episode is Lineage. And I was wrong. He's not cold blooded about it.
Never fuck with Fred. Especially when it's obvious that there's some underlying trust issues in the family. He empties half a clip into that poor bastard before he can even finish pointing his gun at her. The way they had the actor do the scene, I get the feeling that we're supposed to think that Wesley didn't even know what he was doing until after he did it.
Holy shit, I never saw the scene that's after it. This pep talk is hilarious. Quoted it below in spoilers, because of spoilers.
Angel (Over Wesley murdering his father.): Don't beat yourself up over it.
*Sits up, orders himself, and begins to speak.*
Angel: You know, I killed my actual dad. It was one of the first things I did when I became a vampire!
Wesley (With a look that could best be described as O_o on his face.): I...Hardly see how that's the same situation.
Angel: Yeah...I didn't think that one through.
Wesley: I...Should get some rest.
*Walks out, SPIKE OUT OF NOWHERE.*
Spike: Heard what happened with your dad. Off'in him and all.
Spike: Don't know if you know this, but, uh...I killed my mum.
Wesley (Even more disturbed): O_o
Spike:---Actually, i'd already killed her once, and then she tried to shag me, so I had to, uh---
*Spike raises his hand, imitating the "staking a vampire" animation. Though it looks like something else.*
Wesley *Raising his hands as if to try to ward off the horror* : THANK YOU....I'm....Very comforted.
*Wesley practically flees the scene after giving Spike a very long "What the hell is wrong with you?" look.*
Buffy and Angel are both wildly uneven shows. Joss and his stable of writers never do anything brilliant without doing something stupid for good measure. There is a mix of awesome and terrible in every season. Although there are all-time lows (Angel season 4) and all-time highs (Angel season 5).
This person speaks great truths. Well, actually I don't remember which seasons of Angel are which, so don't know if I agree there, but... it's weird. I watched Buffy religiously as it aired, but I quit watching Angel after season 2 due to plot and character things that really annoyed me. Then THIS YEAR I watched all of what I missed on Netflix, and loved it. I don't know if it was just time away, or watching it all without missing key explanation episodes, or what, but it worked.
And everyone I knew hated Buffy. No one watched Buffy the show for Buffy the character, you watched it for all the OTHER characters.
Buffy's ending wrapped up a lot of shit for me and even though I read the comics, I didn't feel like I had to.
Angel's ending was insane in that it didn't wrap up anything and just said, "boy, shit just got real... bet you wish we had another season!!!"
I know we briefly talked about them but... I haven't read the Angel comics. Do they work well?
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ArchonexNo hard feelings, right?Registered Userregular
Buffy's ending wrapped up a lot of shit for me and even though I read the comics, I didn't feel like I had to.
Angel's ending was insane in that it didn't wrap up anything and just said, "boy, shit just got real... bet you wish we had another season!!!"
I know we briefly talked about them but... I haven't read the Angel comics. Do they work well?
The Angel comic is actually what they were going to do if they got another season, with some concepts expanded on since they had the time and artistic capabilities given the medium.
The art is apparently very hit or miss, depending on who's doing it at what time. But i've not actually heard anything bad about it. If you like Angel, you'll probably like the comic.
From what I can tell, Buffy got really weird after the whole Tokyo arc, though. Last few pictures someone showed me of it, it looked like Buffy just got done making love to Angel in the Gummi Bear version of Valhalla, or something.
I don't get people's problems with the redemption of various characters. (And by people, I think I mean enlightenedbum.)
Spike attempted to rape Buffy because he was an undead embodiment of evil. His entire existence once he was chipped was hell for him, and he overrode his fundamental nature through sheer force of will. And when he ultimately realized that was impossible, he went on a quest to get his soul back. I can understand why Buffy, rape victim, might not have sympathized with his plight. I can't understand why an objective viewer wouldn't understand that, though.
Willow was granted redemption by her extremely close friends because they were extremely close friends, and because she was basically driven insane by grief and dark magicks.
Andrew was really never accepted by the gang until arguably the very end, but they kept him around because the alternative was to kill him and they weren't murderers. And, in the end, he's genuinely repentent and does what he can to aid in the effort.
My issue was that Buffy excused it and became the world's #1 Spike fan. I also think Spike was a shit character generally from the minute the stupid chip plot started, because he committed the cardinal sin of being boring. I'm going to kill/fuck the Slayer! That's all he said or did or motivated him. And he's a delightful little misogynistic woman abusing piece of shit both before and after he gets a soul. Spike was always an asshole, and without cocky, sarcastic evil, he's a boring asshole. Alternately phrased: Spike not in the opening credits? Awesome. Spike once he got in the opening credits? Awful.
Willow I can forgive, though her plot would have been considerably better if they cut the addiction bullshit they made up because drugs are bad, mmmkay and then Giles kindly informed us was all a crock of shit anyway in season seven. If Willow lost control because she finally thought she *had* control and was worth something that would have been really interesting and consistent with the character, as Willow was always insecure. Instead, they just took away all of her agency and said she was just a smack addict and so needed to get better.
I think the major problem is that in season six and seven the only character I consistently like is Anya (well, and Tara but she's gone half of six and then gone for seven). Which is... not good as she's at best the fifth lead. Five is wildly inconsistent with some really excellent episodes and some truly awful ones. Four has Riley and Adam and the best episode is one where they don't actually speak. Good sleep aid though.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
And like Spike loves to point out, Angel only feels bad about what he did because the curse made him feel bad, and have definably human emotions. Without the guilt that was forced onto him, odds are he'd just be another (very effective) monster, albeit one that would probably be a bit more relatable then Angelus. Angel had his redemption forced onto him. Spike suffered and actively sought out his.
I mostly agree, but I thought Angel just felt bad as a side-effect of having a soul. Because you couldn't have a soul and not feel awful about all of the horrific things he'd done. I don't recall the curse having a specific and separate guilt-feature.
I may be wrong, but I think it was implied a few times, but never outright stated. "Gypsy Magic" was pretty much a code word for macguffin in Angel and Buffy anyways.
If nothing else, Spike seems remarkably cool for someone who spent the last few centuries terrorizing the world. If pressed, he'll certainly admit that he has some regret for what he's done. But as he likes to point out every now and then, nothing he does will make it right, and he's not going to dwell on what he can't fix.
Angel, by contrast, seems to have a somewhat unhealthy obsession with the concept of redemption. And it's not like he was a very good person before he was vamped. Spike would probably beat him every time on which of them was a better person, pre-vamping.
About the only time he really started freaking out was when he thought he was being dragged to Hell. And, really, those were some really screwed up episodes toward's the end. I can't blame him for freaking out.
No, you are remembering it wrong. All the Gypsy Curse does is restore his soul.
In Buffy/Angel, when you get turned into a Vampire, you die. Your soul goes bye-bye and a demon takes up residence in your corpse. It has all your memories and the like, but it's a demon with no soul. It has no conscience.
The whole point of Angel's curse was to give him back his soul and thus return to him his conscience. And, because of that, he feels bad for all the shit he's done.
But the point of Spike and Angel's different reactions is that they are different people. Of course they deal with it differently. Not to mention, Angel was a fucking lunatic as a vampire and thus Angel has alot to feel bad about.
Anyway, Angel's obsession with redemption mostly starts with Whistler coming to pull him out of the gutter and make something useful of him. He switches from punishing himself over his past to trying to redeem himself. And over the course of years, his ideas on this change considerably (which is one of the best parts of Angel the series, as you watch him grow and change as his ideas on how to deal with who he is change).
Spike, on the other hand, doesn't think he can't make up for it, he just doesn't care. This is what alot of their interactions in S5 are about. Spike ultimately doesn't feel guilt for what he did as a vampire (or, at least, pretends not to). Although really, he just doesn't think about it. It's only when what he's done is forced to the front that he begins to confront it and he begins to actually become a hero (which he achieves by the end along with a large degree of self-acceptance as seen from his drunken poem reading in the last episode).
Buffy's ending wrapped up a lot of shit for me and even though I read the comics, I didn't feel like I had to.
Angel's ending was insane in that it didn't wrap up anything and just said, "boy, shit just got real... bet you wish we had another season!!!"
How didn't it wrap it up?
I mean, it didn't wrap it up with the whole "mega-happy, kill the dragon, save the world, get the princess" stuff, but that's the point. It's the point of the whole show right from the start.
It ended the only way it really could I think without going off the deepend and losing the thematic heart of the show. No big win, no big reward, just once more into the breach.
I know we briefly talked about them but... I haven't read the Angel comics. Do they work well?
No. Ugh, god no.
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ArchonexNo hard feelings, right?Registered Userregular
edited July 2011
A point about Spike.
He's only a misogynistic piece of shit before he gets his soul back, and he's obsessed with Buffy. And even then, before he gets obsessed with her, in regards to his social life, it's pretty clearly established that he's more of a (jackass) parody of romantically inspired vampires then anything else. Hence the whole part where he goes along with destroying the world for awhile, just to keep that crazy oracle vampire he was in love with, happy.
I mean, he spouts off bad poetry multiple times in the series. It's practically one of his pre-vamp defining traits.
After he gets his soul back, the only person he really torments is Angel, who he really doesn't seem to like, and anyone who deliberately goes out of his way to mess with him. And even then, it's always just trying to irritate them, rather then murder them. He pretty clearly appreciated everything Fred did, even though she couldn't help him, and was always respectful to her up until the Bad Thing happened.
And he gives numerous attempted (And hilarious, as I demonstrated up above.) pep talks to the cast at various points.
- I don't get what your problem with the Jasmine bit was. I mean, it involves mind-control/altered-personalities so it can't be good? Wha? The whole point is the "big evil" is world peace at the cost of free will. It's a great dilemma with Angel ultimately plunging the world (or at least, California) into at least temporary anarchy
-More than most shows, you watch Whedon shows for the characters. Watching an entire cast walk around brainwashed is essentially the same as watching an episode where they're all in peril offscreen. I found it tremendously frustrating. I agree that the ideas behind it are fascinating, and actually that's one problem Angel never had--the thematics are almost always really interesting. But sitting through the actual episodes were excruciating until the gang was back in their right heads.
Yeah, but it's like .. one episode. Not even really since they spend about half an episode establishing it before it starts unraveling. It seems like you just didn't like the very idea of characters acting out of character and that soured you on the whole thing.
Angel's ending was insane in that it didn't wrap up anything and just said, "boy, shit just got real... bet you wish we had another season!!!"
Yeah, but, you know what? I still maintain that was one of the best finales I've ever seen. Like, I remember watching the last scene, where they meet back up, and I glanced at the time I thought, "Sweet! Double-length finale!"
Nope, instead I got the biggest cliffhanger ending EVAR. And in retrospect, I fucking loved it.
My girlfriend had the same reaction to it as well, except we were watching it on DVD, so she didn't know how much time was left. It ended, she looked at me, and I'm trying not to laugh because I know what's going through her head.
Angel's ending was insane in that it didn't wrap up anything and just said, "boy, shit just got real... bet you wish we had another season!!!"
Yeah, but, you know what? I still maintain that was one of the best finales I've ever seen. Like, I remember watching the last scene, where they meet back up, and I glanced at the time I thought, "Sweet! Double-length finale!"
Nope, instead I got the biggest cliffhanger ending EVAR. And in retrospect, I fucking loved it.
My girlfriend had the same reaction to it as well, except we were watching it on DVD, so she didn't know how much time was left. It ended, she looked at me, and I'm trying not to laugh because I know what's going through her head.
her: "Fu-....REALLY?!?!?"
Me: :-D :-))
The ending really makes sense in context to both Angel and Buffy as a whole series.
What I got from it is that there's no ending. No riding off into the sunset after a climatic showdown. Just because they leveled a very powerful cult, doesn't mean it ends there. Evil will always be there, and if someone doesn't stand up to it, it wins. You can't beat human nature into submission, like you can a physical monster. Which multiple employee's of Wolfram and Hart make a point of pointing out, multiple times, over the course of the series, is what they're actually capitalizing off of.
All you can do is try to fight to make sure people don't get hurt. There'd be another fight, after that fight, and another one after that, until the world ends, or people improve. Because that's how the world is, and that's what the heroes had to do, if they wanted to make a difference.
It's a pretty heroic way to end the series, when you think about it. Though I do wish we got another season. As if you exclude the comics, it goes from being a "this story continues on" moment to
a glorious last stand against the combined forces of Hell.
.
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AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
I know we briefly talked about them but... I haven't read the Angel comics. Do they work well?
No. Ugh, god no.
The Angel comics aren't terrible. They make some difficult choices--what they do with Wesley and Gunn, for instance--and the ending is kind of unsatisfying because it undoes a lot of what the "season" did... but it feels like the show, the dialog reads like the show, and aside from the "production design" it adheres fairly closely to what you imagine they would have filmed.
Anyway they're better than Buffy, which loses sight of its characters, and feels virtually nothing like the show. Buffy the show was always grounded--high school, college, small town, this one group of friends. Buffy the comic jumps all over the globe, huge battle scenes, a massive and underdeveloped cast, and so on--plus really hard plot turns in quick succession. In three issues it could go from tiny evil vampire toys in Tokyo to battling lizard-people on the moon, and it did that every three issues.
So maybe I have a slightly overinflated opinion of Angel Season 6 because I read Angel after I read Buffy.
Angel's ending was insane in that it didn't wrap up anything and just said, "boy, shit just got real... bet you wish we had another season!!!"
Yeah, but, you know what? I still maintain that was one of the best finales I've ever seen. Like, I remember watching the last scene, where they meet back up, and I glanced at the time I thought, "Sweet! Double-length finale!"
Nope, instead I got the biggest cliffhanger ending EVAR. And in retrospect, I fucking loved it.
My girlfriend had the same reaction to it as well, except we were watching it on DVD, so she didn't know how much time was left. It ended, she looked at me, and I'm trying not to laugh because I know what's going through her head.
her: "Fu-....REALLY?!?!?"
Me: :-D :-))
The ending really makes sense in context to both Angel and Buffy as a whole series.
What I got from it is that there's no ending. No riding off into the sunset after a climatic showdown. Just because they leveled a very powerful cult, doesn't mean it ends there. Evil will always be there, and if someone doesn't stand up to it, it wins. You can't beat human nature into submission, like you can a physical monster. Which multiple employee's of Wolfram and Hart make a point of pointing out, multiple times, over the course of the series, is what they're actually capitalizing off of.
All you can do is try to fight to make sure people don't get hurt. There'd be another fight, after that fight, and another one after that, until the world ends, or people improve. Because that's how the world is, and that's what the heroes had to do, if they wanted to make a difference.
It's a pretty heroic way to end the series, when you think about it. Though I do wish we got another season.
Yeah, this is pretty much it. If you felt unsatisfied, I think you need to rewatch Lindsey's mocking of Angel after they rescue him. His little speech there pretty much flat out articulates the show's themes from the very start and is why the ending is the way it is.
And given how the Angel comic went, I'm kinda thinking these days it worked out better for the show that it got cancelled when it did. We got a pretty much pitch-perfect ending instead of a Buffy style one where the show limps off in a muddle.
So maybe I have a slightly overinflated opinion of Angel Season 6 because I read Angel after I read Buffy.
Ok, in that context I can totally see what you mean.
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OrcaAlso known as EspressosaurusWrexRegistered Userregular
Buffy and Angel are both wildly uneven shows. Joss and his stable of writers never do anything brilliant without doing something stupid for good measure. There is a mix of awesome and terrible in every season. Although there are all-time lows (Angel season 4) and all-time highs (Angel season 5).
This seems to be a constant for Whedon's shows. Firefly was brilliant, but had moments that left me facepalming. I recently started watching The Dollhouse, and pretty quickly noticed some of the same things that annoyed me back when I was watching Buffy and Angel...but without the wonderful character interaction that made those shows so enjoyable to watch.
I feel like he needs to get an editor to smack his hands when he goes to do something stupid.
Buffy and Angel are both wildly uneven shows. Joss and his stable of writers never do anything brilliant without doing something stupid for good measure. There is a mix of awesome and terrible in every season. Although there are all-time lows (Angel season 4) and all-time highs (Angel season 5).
This seems to be a constant for Whedon's shows. Firefly was brilliant, but had moments that left me facepalming. I recently started watching The Dollhouse, and pretty quickly noticed some of the same things that annoyed me back when I was watching Buffy and Angel...but without the wonderful character interaction that made those shows so enjoyable to watch.
I feel like he needs to get an editor to smack his hands when he goes to do something stupid.
I don't remember any parts of Dollhouse being facepalm-worthy, aside from the first few episodes (true of just about any series) and the very end (which is expected when you have to rush an ending due to cancellation).
Or maybe those were the parts you were talking about?
Buffy and Angel are both wildly uneven shows. Joss and his stable of writers never do anything brilliant without doing something stupid for good measure. There is a mix of awesome and terrible in every season. Although there are all-time lows (Angel season 4) and all-time highs (Angel season 5).
This seems to be a constant for Whedon's shows. Firefly was brilliant, but had moments that left me facepalming. I recently started watching The Dollhouse, and pretty quickly noticed some of the same things that annoyed me back when I was watching Buffy and Angel...but without the wonderful character interaction that made those shows so enjoyable to watch.
I feel like he needs to get an editor to smack his hands when he goes to do something stupid.
I don't remember any parts of Dollhouse being facepalm-worthy, aside from the first few episodes (true of just about any series) and the very end (which is expected when you have to rush an ending due to cancellation).
Or maybe those were the parts you were talking about?
The middle 25-30 episodes were solid as hell.
I also really enjoyed the character interactions there too. Especially before they decided to go for the whole Whedon-esque "quirky family" thing. Back when it was really more evident how fucked up and damaged all these people were.
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HachfaceNot the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking ofDammit, Shepard!Registered Userregular
Firefly was the most consistently good season of television Whedon ever produced, with the possible exception of Angel season 5 (which, while spectacular, was burdened by a need to do continuity clean-up of previous seasions and premature cancellation). But in keeping with Whedon's quivering ratio of brilliance to stupidity, he marred what would have been a sparkling little unfinished gem of a show by grafting a rushed and unsatisfying ending to it with Serenity.
Yeah, this is pretty much it. If you felt unsatisfied, I think you need to rewatch Lindsey's mocking of Angel after they rescue him. His little speech there pretty much flat out articulates the show's themes from the very start and is why the ending is the way it is.
And given how the Angel comic went, I'm kinda thinking these days it worked out better for the show that it got cancelled when it did. We got a pretty much pitch-perfect ending instead of a Buffy style one where the show limps off in a muddle.
I totally get why it ended that way. I can think something is amazing and still not feel fulfilled. The ending of Angel was just sooooo good and made me go "AAAAHHHHH NOOOOO I WANT TO SEE MOOOOOORE".
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They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
What the fuck is this shit? Here. Let me fix you.
So much terrible here. Firstly, Angel was consistently good throughout. Far better then post-S3 Buffy. (Although Buffy still had some serious highlights)
Secondly, the Angel comics are terrible and are a good example (along with the stuff for the Buffy animated series and some other shit) of why budget contraints were the best thing to happen to these shows.
- Connor is a whiny git, but that's the point. He's a fucking maladjusted teenager after all. And his arc with Angel is incredibly tragic and well done.
- I don't get what your problem with the Jasmine bit was. I mean, it involves mind-control/altered-personalities so it can't be good? Wha? The whole point is the "big evil" is world peace at the cost of free will. It's a great dilemma with Angel ultimately plunging the world (or at least, California) into at least temporary anarchy
- The Cordelia stuff in the middle and the retconning are the real weak points and for all that it weakens the story, it's also not really their fault. Still, it detracts from the season.
- also you forgot Gwen as the worst thing that went nowhere in that season
Huh?
- Deep Down, Spin the Bottle, Apocalypse, Nowish, Habeas Corpses, Soulless, The Magic Bullet, Sacrifice, Peace Out, Home
All good to great to at least funny episodes.
To be fair, Jasmine came out of the fucking left field so any smart thing the gang could've done wouldn't have mattered.
Watching him go from
Also, Buffy did indeed become a bitch. Though I always attributed that, to some extent, to Sarah Michelle Gellar becoming a bit of a bitch, and the writers going with what worked best. The few stories i've heard of her from that time, say that she was massively stuck up over her role in a leading TV show.
I mean, it's not like she had that many excuses past the initial screw-ups. Even Spike occasionally popped in to tell her to stop being so goddamned annoying and self-centered. And her (significantly weaker) cohorts, like Xander, went through shit just as bad, if not worse, in some cases, and kept a bright face. Except for that incident with Willow.
But really, given how screwed up that arc was. I don't think anyone can blame Willow for doing her best Dr. Doom impersonation.
Spike attempted to rape Buffy because he was an undead embodiment of evil. His entire existence once he was chipped was hell for him, and he overrode his fundamental nature through sheer force of will. And when he ultimately realized that was impossible, he went on a quest to get his soul back. I can understand why Buffy, rape victim, might not have sympathized with his plight. I can't understand why an objective viewer wouldn't understand that, though.
Willow was granted redemption by her extremely close friends because they were extremely close friends, and because she was basically driven insane by grief and dark magicks.
Andrew was really never accepted by the gang until arguably the very end, but they kept him around because the alternative was to kill him and they weren't murderers. And, in the end, he's genuinely repentent and does what he can to aid in the effort.
Buffy didn't need to suddenly leap into his arms after he tried to make amends, and make things right. But she also didn't exactly need to treat him like he was arch-enemy number one, and lock him up in the basement. The dude was fixed. He had compassion. Hell, if anything, he was more of a hero, by the end of the series, then Angel actually ever was. For how much she tries to play herself to be the hero, she really is not good at the whole "heroic compassion" thing.
And like Spike loves to point out, Angel only feels bad about what he did because the curse made him feel bad, and have definably human emotions. Without the guilt that was forced onto him, odds are he'd just be another (very effective) monster, albeit one that would probably be a bit more relatable then Angelus. Angel had his redemption forced onto him. Spike suffered and actively sought out his.
-I get that Connor's character is consistent, and I like the idea of the character, and young Pete Campbell is actually kind of a heartthrob. I just find the way Connor behaves to be frustrating and grating. He's great at the end of the show, once he's been fixed; but until then, his best moments are as a baby or getting a serious talking-to from Angel (ala the first episode of season 4).
-More than most shows, you watch Whedon shows for the characters. Watching an entire cast walk around brainwashed is essentially the same as watching an episode where they're all in peril offscreen. I found it tremendously frustrating. I agree that the ideas behind it are fascinating, and actually that's one problem Angel never had--the thematics are almost always really interesting. But sitting through the actual episodes were excruciating until the gang was back in their right heads.
-Gwen was in that season? Was that the electric love interest that never went anywhere or the werewolf love interest that never went anywhere? I get those pointless subplots mixed up. I know she wasn't the cop love interest that never went anywhere... (I'm kidding... slightly.)
Yeah, I really do not know what you'd want Buffy to do with all of that on her.
I must say that I am loving this thread though
Did you completely forget all of the work done to show how Xander is not only the heart, but the foundation of the entire Scooby gang? Without him, shit collapses.
Xander is the best, but Wesley became my favorite character by the end of Angel. His entire arc was... well, simply amazing. Everyone else had a fairly straight line I feel.
Xander
Edit: Also, how does being the heart of the group make him go through shit just as bad as the slayer? ALMOST everything bad that happened to him, happened because of an action he took. Bad things happened to Buffy because she was Born That Way. :P
If nothing else, Spike seems remarkably cool for someone who spent the last few centuries terrorizing the world. If pressed, he'll certainly admit that he has some regret for what he's done. But as he likes to point out every now and then, nothing he does will make it right, and he's not going to dwell on what he can't fix.
Angel, by contrast, seems to have a somewhat unhealthy obsession with the concept of redemption. And it's not like he was a very good person before he was vamped. Spike would probably beat him every time on which of them was a better person, pre-vamping.
About the only time he really started freaking out was when he thought he was being dragged to Hell. And, really, those were some really screwed up episodes toward's the end. I can't blame him for freaking out.
Edit: Xander was always a bit of a hidden badass. Remember that episode where he unknowingly saved the world while Buffy and co were freaking out and fighting a different world destroying threat in the background all episode? It was both hilarious, and awesome.
I wish I could remember what episode that was.
Edit 2: Ah, it's the Zeppo. I need to watch that one again.
Oh man, so true. I never really connected those three pointless bits.
The Zeppo. One of the five or so best episodes, by far.
I hated Wesley so hard in Buffy, that I was actively angry when he showed up on Angel. Of course, by the end he was second only to Lorne as my favorite on that show.
The zeppo. But yeah I don't think Xanders gets particularly crazy in the comic. He's still only an alright fighter and mostly keeps everyone together. Nothing he does seems out of character for someone who was a part time Vamp hunter for 7 years and then went full time. But then I kinda like the comics. They arn't perfect but I think there are some good arcs there. The one with dracula for example.
Wesley gets fucking awesome by Season 5. He starts the season out by
There's also this episode.
Which is simultaneously awesome, sad, and probably one of the actor's best performances in the series' entire run. Wish I could see the last scene on the rooftop again. Wesley is one cold son of a bitch when it comes to getting the job done.
Netflix has it all streaming
I just watched it. The name of the episode is Lineage. And I was wrong. He's not cold blooded about it.
Holy shit, I never saw the scene that's after it. This pep talk is hilarious. Quoted it below in spoilers, because of spoilers.
Angel (Over Wesley murdering his father.): Don't beat yourself up over it.
*Sits up, orders himself, and begins to speak.*
Angel: You know, I killed my actual dad. It was one of the first things I did when I became a vampire!
Wesley (With a look that could best be described as O_o on his face.): I...Hardly see how that's the same situation.
Angel: Yeah...I didn't think that one through.
Wesley: I...Should get some rest.
*Walks out, SPIKE OUT OF NOWHERE.*
Spike: Heard what happened with your dad. Off'in him and all.
Spike: Don't know if you know this, but, uh...I killed my mum.
Wesley (Even more disturbed): O_o
Spike:---Actually, i'd already killed her once, and then she tried to shag me, so I had to, uh---
*Spike raises his hand, imitating the "staking a vampire" animation. Though it looks like something else.*
Wesley *Raising his hands as if to try to ward off the horror* : THANK YOU....I'm....Very comforted.
*Wesley practically flees the scene after giving Spike a very long "What the hell is wrong with you?" look.*
Vampire pep talks are harsh.
This person speaks great truths. Well, actually I don't remember which seasons of Angel are which, so don't know if I agree there, but... it's weird. I watched Buffy religiously as it aired, but I quit watching Angel after season 2 due to plot and character things that really annoyed me. Then THIS YEAR I watched all of what I missed on Netflix, and loved it. I don't know if it was just time away, or watching it all without missing key explanation episodes, or what, but it worked.
And everyone I knew hated Buffy. No one watched Buffy the show for Buffy the character, you watched it for all the OTHER characters.
Angel's ending was insane in that it didn't wrap up anything and just said, "boy, shit just got real... bet you wish we had another season!!!"
I know we briefly talked about them but... I haven't read the Angel comics. Do they work well?
The Angel comic is actually what they were going to do if they got another season, with some concepts expanded on since they had the time and artistic capabilities given the medium.
The art is apparently very hit or miss, depending on who's doing it at what time. But i've not actually heard anything bad about it. If you like Angel, you'll probably like the comic.
From what I can tell, Buffy got really weird after the whole Tokyo arc, though. Last few pictures someone showed me of it, it looked like Buffy just got done making love to Angel in the Gummi Bear version of Valhalla, or something.
Willow I can forgive, though her plot would have been considerably better if they cut the addiction bullshit they made up because drugs are bad, mmmkay and then Giles kindly informed us was all a crock of shit anyway in season seven. If Willow lost control because she finally thought she *had* control and was worth something that would have been really interesting and consistent with the character, as Willow was always insecure. Instead, they just took away all of her agency and said she was just a smack addict and so needed to get better.
I think the major problem is that in season six and seven the only character I consistently like is Anya (well, and Tara but she's gone half of six and then gone for seven). Which is... not good as she's at best the fifth lead. Five is wildly inconsistent with some really excellent episodes and some truly awful ones. Four has Riley and Adam and the best episode is one where they don't actually speak. Good sleep aid though.
In Buffy/Angel, when you get turned into a Vampire, you die. Your soul goes bye-bye and a demon takes up residence in your corpse. It has all your memories and the like, but it's a demon with no soul. It has no conscience.
The whole point of Angel's curse was to give him back his soul and thus return to him his conscience. And, because of that, he feels bad for all the shit he's done.
But the point of Spike and Angel's different reactions is that they are different people. Of course they deal with it differently. Not to mention, Angel was a fucking lunatic as a vampire and thus Angel has alot to feel bad about.
Anyway, Angel's obsession with redemption mostly starts with Whistler coming to pull him out of the gutter and make something useful of him. He switches from punishing himself over his past to trying to redeem himself. And over the course of years, his ideas on this change considerably (which is one of the best parts of Angel the series, as you watch him grow and change as his ideas on how to deal with who he is change).
Spike, on the other hand, doesn't think he can't make up for it, he just doesn't care. This is what alot of their interactions in S5 are about. Spike ultimately doesn't feel guilt for what he did as a vampire (or, at least, pretends not to). Although really, he just doesn't think about it. It's only when what he's done is forced to the front that he begins to confront it and he begins to actually become a hero (which he achieves by the end along with a large degree of self-acceptance as seen from his drunken poem reading in the last episode).
How didn't it wrap it up?
I mean, it didn't wrap it up with the whole "mega-happy, kill the dragon, save the world, get the princess" stuff, but that's the point. It's the point of the whole show right from the start.
No. Ugh, god no.
I mean, he spouts off bad poetry multiple times in the series. It's practically one of his pre-vamp defining traits.
After he gets his soul back, the only person he really torments is Angel, who he really doesn't seem to like, and anyone who deliberately goes out of his way to mess with him. And even then, it's always just trying to irritate them, rather then murder them. He pretty clearly appreciated everything Fred did, even though she couldn't help him, and was always respectful to her up until the Bad Thing happened.
And he gives numerous attempted (And hilarious, as I demonstrated up above.) pep talks to the cast at various points.
Yeah, but, you know what? I still maintain that was one of the best finales I've ever seen. Like, I remember watching the last scene, where they meet back up, and I glanced at the time I thought, "Sweet! Double-length finale!"
Nope, instead I got the biggest cliffhanger ending EVAR. And in retrospect, I fucking loved it.
My girlfriend had the same reaction to it as well, except we were watching it on DVD, so she didn't know how much time was left. It ended, she looked at me, and I'm trying not to laugh because I know what's going through her head.
her: "Fu-....REALLY?!?!?"
Me: :-D :-))
The ending really makes sense in context to both Angel and Buffy as a whole series.
What I got from it is that there's no ending. No riding off into the sunset after a climatic showdown. Just because they leveled a very powerful cult, doesn't mean it ends there. Evil will always be there, and if someone doesn't stand up to it, it wins. You can't beat human nature into submission, like you can a physical monster. Which multiple employee's of Wolfram and Hart make a point of pointing out, multiple times, over the course of the series, is what they're actually capitalizing off of.
All you can do is try to fight to make sure people don't get hurt. There'd be another fight, after that fight, and another one after that, until the world ends, or people improve. Because that's how the world is, and that's what the heroes had to do, if they wanted to make a difference.
It's a pretty heroic way to end the series, when you think about it. Though I do wish we got another season. As if you exclude the comics, it goes from being a "this story continues on" moment to
The Angel comics aren't terrible. They make some difficult choices--what they do with Wesley and Gunn, for instance--and the ending is kind of unsatisfying because it undoes a lot of what the "season" did... but it feels like the show, the dialog reads like the show, and aside from the "production design" it adheres fairly closely to what you imagine they would have filmed.
Anyway they're better than Buffy, which loses sight of its characters, and feels virtually nothing like the show. Buffy the show was always grounded--high school, college, small town, this one group of friends. Buffy the comic jumps all over the globe, huge battle scenes, a massive and underdeveloped cast, and so on--plus really hard plot turns in quick succession. In three issues it could go from tiny evil vampire toys in Tokyo to battling lizard-people on the moon, and it did that every three issues.
So maybe I have a slightly overinflated opinion of Angel Season 6 because I read Angel after I read Buffy.
Yeah, this is pretty much it. If you felt unsatisfied, I think you need to rewatch Lindsey's mocking of Angel after they rescue him. His little speech there pretty much flat out articulates the show's themes from the very start and is why the ending is the way it is.
And given how the Angel comic went, I'm kinda thinking these days it worked out better for the show that it got cancelled when it did. We got a pretty much pitch-perfect ending instead of a Buffy style one where the show limps off in a muddle.
Ok, in that context I can totally see what you mean.
This seems to be a constant for Whedon's shows. Firefly was brilliant, but had moments that left me facepalming. I recently started watching The Dollhouse, and pretty quickly noticed some of the same things that annoyed me back when I was watching Buffy and Angel...but without the wonderful character interaction that made those shows so enjoyable to watch.
I feel like he needs to get an editor to smack his hands when he goes to do something stupid.
I don't remember any parts of Dollhouse being facepalm-worthy, aside from the first few episodes (true of just about any series) and the very end (which is expected when you have to rush an ending due to cancellation).
Or maybe those were the parts you were talking about?
The middle 25-30 episodes were solid as hell.
I also really enjoyed the character interactions there too. Especially before they decided to go for the whole Whedon-esque "quirky family" thing. Back when it was really more evident how fucked up and damaged all these people were.
I totally get why it ended that way. I can think something is amazing and still not feel fulfilled. The ending of Angel was just sooooo good and made me go "AAAAHHHHH NOOOOO I WANT TO SEE MOOOOOORE".