Kevin Church yells at people.

hughtronhughtron __BANNED USERS
edited February 2007 in Graphic Violence
...And maybe that's exactly why I'm just so fucking pissed off at the majority of you out there. You are the reason so many of them suck. Yes, you - you're getting the books you deserve.

You complain about the ads in Marvel and DC pamphlets, yet you buy them each and every month instead of waiting for the trade. You complain about how delayed Civil War is, yet buy every quickie cash-in to reward the publisher for their lateness. You bitch about how expensive comics are, but when Marvel and DC raised the cost of a regular 22-page pamphlet to $3, you just kept on picking them up without hesitation...


Plenty more over at his blog. Personally I think he's pretty much right on. A few months ago I took a good, hard look at my pull-list and stopped buying nearly everything on it, even some books by Grant Morrison. (gasp!)

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  • ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Yes


    The best thing for the comics industry is if everyone stops buying comics

    Scooter on
  • hughtronhughtron __BANNED USERS
    edited February 2007
    Scooter wrote: »
    Yes


    The best thing for the comics industry is if everyone stops buying comics

    Just the bad ones.

    hughtron on
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  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    He's very right, but on the other hand, I can't really help myself. Even as I bitch about it's lateness, I'm dutifully awaiting the next issue of Wonder Woman. Right now, though, I can't really think of any of the rest of my books that I'm dissatisfied with. If anything, I feel like there are more good books than I can afford to buy.

    wwtMask on
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  • hughtronhughtron __BANNED USERS
    edited February 2007
    And, I mean, it's not like this is anything new, or specific to comics. Look at the box office results on any given weeked. A lot of people buy a lot of crap. This is a universal truth.

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  • Bad KarmaBad Karma Registered User
    edited February 2007
    I don't know who this guy is but he makes a mean point or two.

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  • Conditional_AxeConditional_Axe Registered User
    edited February 2007
    The whole thing is predicated on the hidden truth that I don't like the books I'm reading. As much as I read Kevin Church's blog and am entertained by it, I think we have fundamentally different ideas about what makes books good or bad. I mean, I like Geoff Johns.

    That said, his advice is good advice, and there are plenty of books I can cut without missing.

    Conditional_Axe on
  • ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    hughtron wrote: »
    Just the bad ones.


    From the quote, it sounds like "bad ones" includes all of DC and Marvel.

    Scooter on
  • Target PracticeTarget Practice Registered User
    edited February 2007
    Scooter wrote: »
    From the quote, it sounds like "bad ones" includes all of DC and Marvel.

    And anything with an ad.

    How many comics lack ads? The only one I can think of is Fell, and even that has one on the back cover sometimes (I think).

    Not to mention that if nobody buys a comic, it might not make it to trade anyhow.

    Target Practice on
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  • MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    if you're getting excited over Watchmen as a two-hour movie, then go fuck yourself. No, really, go ahead and do it now - I'll wait. Superhero comics have their very own Finnegan's Wake and The Crying of Lot 49 rolled into one, beautiful piece of work and you want to see it raped and reduced to a 120-minute running time? What the hell is wrong with you? Support the medium, not the bastardization thereof.

    This, I felt, was a very good point.

    Marathon on
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited February 2007
    Marathon wrote: »
    This, I felt, was a very good point.

    Because it won't attract new people to the medium?

    Because seeing it in another medium won't be fresh or exciting?

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  • MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Because it won't attract new people to the medium?

    Because seeing it in another medium won't be fresh or exciting?

    No, because most super hero movies are just what he said. A bastardization of the source material edited down and snipped until it fits a 120 min. timeframe.

    Seeing them in a new medium is fresh and exciting when they are done well. When they roll out every possible comic property as fast as possible the end product is usually less than stellar.

    Marathon on
  • Conditional_AxeConditional_Axe Registered User
    edited February 2007
    Because it won't attract new people to the medium?

    Because seeing it in another medium won't be fresh or exciting?
    because pretentious snob fans equate any transposition of a story from one medium to another like it's a rape.

    Conditional_Axe on
  • ServoServo Registered User, ClubPA
    edited February 2007
    And anything with an ad.

    How many comics lack ads? The only one I can think of is Fell, and even that has one on the back cover sometimes (I think).

    Not to mention that if nobody buys a comic, it might not make it to trade anyhow.

    criminal doesn't have ads and it's even published by marvel

    Servo on
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  • SquashuaSquashua __BANNED USERS regular
    edited February 2007
    hughtron wrote: »
    Just the bad ones.

    Like "Manhunter" and "Nextwave".

    Squashua on
  • Garlic BreadGarlic Bread Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Squashua wrote: »
    Like "Manhunter" and "Nextwave".

    are you being sarcastic or did you just call manhunter bad?

    Garlic Bread on
  • kdrudykdrudy Registered User
    edited February 2007
    because pretentious snob fans equate any transposition of a story from one medium to another like it's a rape.

    Or maybe because Watchmen is so good we are afraid to see it made badly. We'd love to see it made well, but its so easy to make a bad film these days we desperately don't want that to happen here.

    kdrudy on
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  • PookieMan357PookieMan357 Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Just reading the OPs quote of the original article, I'm inclined to agree. Personally, though it means I have to skip many discussions on new comics, I'd rather wait for a collected edition. A full storyline every 6 to 12 months is worth more to me than a chapter a month, especially if the chapter is littered with advertisements. The consequence is that I fall far behind current events, but the advantage is that I get an uninterrupted story.

    PookieMan357 on
  • Conditional_AxeConditional_Axe Registered User
    edited February 2007
    kdrudy wrote: »
    Or maybe because Watchmen is so good we are afraid to see it made badly. We'd love to see it made well, but its so easy to make a bad film these days we desperately don't want that to happen here.
    I don't see how letting them make a movie devalues your enjoyment of the original.

    At this point, it's clear to me that comic book movies are not for comic book fans. They exist to deliver the stories to the mainstream. That's the reason we're never happy with them, because they often disregard the painful minutiae that we regard as essential to anybody's proper enjoyment of the story, work from something more distilled than we personally would like, and have a few liberties taken for the sake of the transition. When Watchmen gets made, you know there are going to be people complaining because Doctor Manhattan probably won't have his giant blue dick bouncing around everywhere. These guys, and the guy who bitches about the lenses on Nite-Owl's mask not being accurate, or how Rorshach doesn't sound exactly the way they'd pictured it in their heads, they're not even evaluating it as a movie. Whether it's a good movie or not. Not to mention the legion of fans who will refuse to see the movie and still talk shit on it because Alan Moore said that movies are bad.

    Conditional_Axe on
  • robocop is bleedingrobocop is bleeding Registered User
    edited February 2007
    Huh. I randomly ran into this guy last night. He was reading a Jack Kirby collection at the bar while I was reading a Lucifer graphic novel. Weird.

    robocop is bleeding on

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  • The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Scooter wrote: »
    Yes


    The best thing for the comics industry is if everyone stops buying comics

    It really is!

    Then Marvel and DC have a REASON to jack the price up per comic.
    Or delay comics(Who cares? No one's reading them!)
    Or stuff them with ads.
    Or do all this shit he's doing to increase their profit margin. Which the now need to do more of to increase their profit margin even FURTHER.

    The Muffin Man on
  • Conditional_AxeConditional_Axe Registered User
    edited February 2007
    It really is!

    Then Marvel and DC have a REASON to jack the price up per comic.
    Or delay comics(Who cares? No one's reading them!)
    Or stuff them with ads.
    Or do all this shit he's doing to increase their profit margin. Which the now need to do more of to increase their profit margin even FURTHER.
    as much of a point as you have, I'm not going to buy books I don't enjoy just to 'support the industry' or whatever.

    Conditional_Axe on
  • The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    as much of a point as you have, I'm not going to buy books I don't enjoy just to 'support the industry' or whatever.

    And neither will I. You don't have to.

    But purposely not buying books until it gets to trades just to "send a message" is not only pointless, it's not a very good way to make comic prices go down, or make shit come out on time, or get less ads.

    The Muffin Man on
  • BriareosBriareos Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    I don't see how letting them make a movie devalues your enjoyment of the original.

    At this point, it's clear to me that comic book movies are not for comic book fans. They exist to deliver the stories to the mainstream. That's the reason we're never happy with them, because they often disregard the painful minutiae that we regard as essential to anybody's proper enjoyment of the story, work from something more distilled than we personally would like, and have a few liberties taken for the sake of the transition. When Watchmen gets made, you know there are going to be people complaining because Doctor Manhattan probably won't have his giant blue dick bouncing around everywhere. These guys, and the guy who bitches about the lenses on Nite-Owl's mask not being accurate, or how Rorshach doesn't sound exactly the way they'd pictured it in their heads, they're not even evaluating it as a movie. Whether it's a good movie or not. Not to mention the legion of fans who will refuse to see the movie and still talk shit on it because Alan Moore said that movies are bad.

    The people who want to see all the minutiae of their favorite off-screen property brought to life on-screen are not comic book fans; they are assholes. For Watchmen, I want to see someone make a good movie based on the source material. I don't care if Rorschach is played by Ving Rames as long as the screenwriter, actors, and director are up to the task of making an interesting, challenging, and morally ambiguous movie.

    For example, for all the panning V for Vendetta received from comics fans, I think the movie did a darn good job of hitting the most of the key points present in the original format. It was by no means exactly how I would have liked to have seen it done, but it was done skillfully and intelligently enough for me to appreciate it as a movie.

    In response to Church's rant: "If you love superhero comics, stop supporting shitty superhero comics. If you love comics in general, start supporting better comics."

    I agree with this statement, but the rest of his rant is complete bullshit. It sounds to me like he's responding to a vocal minority, not the majority of comic book consumers.

    Briareos on
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  • Garlic BreadGarlic Bread Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    And neither will I. You don't have to.

    But purposely not buying books until it gets to trades just to "send a message" is not only pointless, it's not a very good way to make comic prices go down, or make shit come out on time, or get less ads.

    I am not buying Jeff Smith's Shazam mini-series until it hits trades to send the message that $6 an issue is seriously fucking ridiculous

    Garlic Bread on
  • hughtronhughtron __BANNED USERS
    edited February 2007
    Briaros, the majority of comic book customers are buying really shitty superhero comics. It's just like the majority of moviegoers are watching really shitty movies. 'A Night At The Museum' has been in the top ten box office weekend results for like two months. 'The DaVinci Code' topped the bestsellers list for eons.

    hughtron on
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  • The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Keith wrote: »
    I am not buying Jeff Smith's Shazam mini-series until it hits trades to send the message that $6 an issue is seriously fucking ridiculous

    See THAT might accomplish something. It's out of the norm, and I imagine people are already going "6 bucks an issue!? Fuck that."

    The Muffin Man on
  • BriareosBriareos Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Keith wrote: »
    I am not buying Jeff Smith's Shazam mini-series until it hits trades to send the message that $6 an issue is seriously fucking ridiculous

    Fair enough, but you should probably clue the publisher into your motivation, because otherwise you are just one person among the millions who don't buy the comic for an array of reasons. A simple letter to DC saying, "I'm really interested in this series, and I plan to buy it when the trade hits, but I won't buy the monthly because I am not paying $6 an issue for it" would really drive the point home.

    Briareos on
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  • hughtronhughtron __BANNED USERS
    edited February 2007
    Huh. I randomly ran into this guy last night. He was reading a Jack Kirby collection at the bar while I was reading a Lucifer graphic novel. Weird.

    Do you post at Metafilter? Your name is very familiar.

    hughtron on
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  • robocop is bleedingrobocop is bleeding Registered User
    edited February 2007
    hughtron wrote: »
    Do you post at Metafilter? Your name is very familiar.

    Ayup, that's me. Or rather, ayup, I do also post on Mefi.

    robocop is bleeding on

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  • BriareosBriareos Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    hughtron wrote: »
    Briaros, the majority of comic book customers are buying really shitty superhero comics. It's just like the majority of moviegoers are watching really shitty movies. 'A Night At The Museum' has been in the top ten box office weekend results for like two months. 'The DaVinci Code' topped the bestsellers list for eons.

    As I said, I agree with his statement that if you think a book is shitty, you should not buy it. I don't agree with his ranting and raving at "comic book fans" because I think he does not have a balanced or realistic view of what "comic book fans" like and don't like.

    As for "Night at the Museum," the New York Times gave it a decent review for the kind of movie that is, i.e. rather fluffy and comforting entertainment. Just because it isn't Citizen Kane doesn't mean it's crap.

    The same holds true for comics. Not every comic book is going to be "The Dark Knight Returns," but no one said that every comic book should be. Sometimes they can just be fun and silly.

    I mean, they are comic books for fuck's sake. Let's not take them (and ourselves) too seriously.

    Briareos on
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  • hughtronhughtron __BANNED USERS
    edited February 2007
    Except that for the last twenty years, ever since Dark Knight Returns everybody has been crawling over themselves to have comics taken seriously. 'Civil War' or 'The Authority' or 'Infinite Crisis' or whatever are all so dreadfully serious that I can't even stand to read them.

    hughtron on
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  • hughtronhughtron __BANNED USERS
    edited February 2007
    Ayup, that's me. Or rather, ayup, I do also post on Mefi.

    I see. I've had an account there since like 2001. I lurk but I very rarely post. Your name looked very familiar though. It's a story about bunnies or something, isn't it?

    hughtron on
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  • ben0207ben0207 Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    hughtron wrote: »
    Except that for the last twenty years, ever since Dark Knight Returns everybody has been crawling over themselves to have comics taken seriously. 'Civil War' or 'The Authority' or 'Infinite Crisis' or whatever are all so dreadfully serious that I can't even stand to read them.

    I think most comic readers are like this and thats probably why NextWave sold so well as to get an ongoing.

    Oh Wait.



    (I'm not disagreeing that some books are too serious, I just wanted to highlight the difference 'tween us and most people that buy books)

    ben0207 on
  • robocop is bleedingrobocop is bleeding Registered User
    edited February 2007
    Yeah, it started as a tomwaitsian pun but instead proved to be horribly prophetic when our pet rabbit Robocop got in a fight with the much larger rabbit Grendel. Robo survived and has gone on to have bouts with the new pet rabbit, Beef Wellington, with fair to middling success.

    He's a scrapper, our Robes!

    robocop is bleeding on

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  • BriareosBriareos Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Yeah, it started as a tomwaitsian pun but instead proved to be horribly prophetic when our pet rabbit Robocop got in a fight with the much larger rabbit Grendel. Robo survived and has gone on to have bouts with the new pet rabbit, Beef Wellington, with fair to middling success.

    He's a scrapper, our Robes!

    I now suspect you of running a rabbit-fighting gambling ring.

    Back on-topic:
    ben0207 wrote: »
    I think most comic readers are like this and thats probably why NextWave sold so well as to get an ongoing.

    Oh Wait.



    (I'm not disagreeing that some books are too serious, I just wanted to highlight the difference 'tween us and most people that buy books)

    I'm all for comics being treated as a serious medium, but the most effective efforts in that area have been from non-superhero stories (for examples, Maus and One Bad Rat).

    Superhero comics are ridiculous by definition, and thus I'm not terribly concerned when they involve lots of superhero storytelling conventions. In fact, sometimes I rather enjoy it.

    Edit: Odd. The new software doesn't automatically nest quotes. I wanted hughtron's original comment in there, too.

    Briareos on
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  • Target PracticeTarget Practice Registered User
    edited February 2007
    Marathon wrote: »
    No, because most super hero movies are just what he said. A bastardization of the source material edited down and snipped until it fits a 120 min. timeframe.

    Seeing them in a new medium is fresh and exciting when they are done well. When they roll out every possible comic property as fast as possible the end product is usually less than stellar.

    I'd say editing down is less of an issue than what they add in.

    It wasn't the things that got left out of the V for Vendetta movie that upset me, it was stupid shit like making Evey an overt love interest.

    In any event, the fact of the matter is that comics do not sell well anymore. Movies are about the only way 95% of the world will know anything about Watchmen or anything else that isn't Spider-Man or Batman or one of the other handful of comic characters who have worked their way into mainstream consciousness.

    And on that note, can anyone name a single comic book character created after the 60s that qualifies? The only one I can think of that even comes close is Wolverine.

    Target Practice on
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  • Target PracticeTarget Practice Registered User
    edited February 2007
    See THAT might accomplish something. It's out of the norm, and I imagine people are already going "6 bucks an issue!? Fuck that."

    I cringe at anything over $3.

    As much as I've liked Peter David's Marvel 1602 mini, the fact that it's $3.25 and yet appears to have fewer pages than the average comic irritates the hell out of me. (I'm guessing the extra money is for the covers, which appear to be made of posterboard or something instead of standard magazine paper.)

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  • The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Does Deadpool count?

    The Muffin Man on
  • hughtronhughtron __BANNED USERS
    edited February 2007
    I'd say editing down is less of an issue than what they add in.

    It wasn't the things that got left out of the V for Vendetta movie that upset me, it was stupid shit like making Evey an overt love interest.

    In any event, the fact of the matter is that comics do not sell well anymore. Movies are about the only way 95% of the world will know anything about Watchmen or anything else that isn't Spider-Man or Batman or one of the other handful of comic characters who have worked their way into mainstream consciousness.

    And on that note, can anyone name a single comic book character created after the 60s that qualifies? The only one I can think of that even comes close is Wolverine.

    Maybe Spawn?
    Naruto?

    hughtron on
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  • Target PracticeTarget Practice Registered User
    edited February 2007
    Does Deadpool count?

    I wouldn't say Deadpool has infiltrated the mainstream consciousness.

    I wouldn't say any manga character qualifies, at least in the West.

    Spawn? Maybe. But I'm willing to bet you'd find plenty of people who have no idea who he is. Find me the American who's never heard of Batman or Spider-Man.

    Target Practice on
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