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I can't believe I'm getting a divorce.
MetroidZoid
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
I really don't know what help I'm looking for other than, despite the creeping feeling that our year + relationship has been getting worse and worse, the finality of watching my wife pull out of the driveway, belongings packed, has just broadsided me. I have no idea where to go from here. I'm only 24 and I just feel stupid.
We just weren't congruent. Maybe if we got married later. Maybe if we just took longer to accept who we were. But it's a relationship where neither one of us was 100% okay with who the other was. So .. it's been over a year, that's too soon for annulment, right? And there was no pre-nup. I don't think of her as the vengeful type, I really think we'd be able to split things amicably. Where do I go from here?
We just weren't congruent. Maybe if we got married later. Maybe if we just took longer to accept who we were. But it's a relationship where neither one of us was 100% okay with who the other was. So .. it's been over a year, that's too soon for annulment, right? And there was no pre-nup. I don't think of her as the vengeful type, I really think we'd be able to split things amicably. Where do I go from here?
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Lawyer up. Or at least talk to one.
Depending on if you had kids or not and the amount of assets at hand determines the difficulty level of this whole thing.
Lawyering up doesn't mean you hate her or are out for blood. But it's still a good idea to have an experienced law person look over documents for you, at minimum.
You sound like you're kind of in shock... you should probably try to find a friend to hang out with tonight.
Secret Satan
Like wulf asked, have you done counseling?
but they're listening to every word I say
On the surface this sounds like the normal college age year+ breakup most first-world 20somethings go through. The only difference being that you have a legal contract you both need to dissolve before you can truly move on. Which is an added layer of complication and has its disadvantages, but it could have some advantages as well, for which you do need to consult a lawyer.
This is not to belittle your feelings at all. This is just to say that you are not as stupid as you think you are. You certainly are not alone. It sucks now and it's gonna suck for awhile, but this need not be the defining moment of your entire life.
Standard HA breakup advice still applies here. Go strengthen other social ties by hanging out with other friends, hit the gym, listen to whatever music suits your fancy and emotional need, maybe take up a new hobby, and let the soothing cushion of time do its work.
Good luck, OP. You're gonna be okay.
Even though what you are dealing with now is no fun at all you can now look forward to the possibility of finding someone you do click with 100% or 99%.. Honestly, I would settle for 90% because odds on finding someone who agrees with everything you that consistently seem pretty long. Even if you did manage to find that you may find that isn't exactly what you want.
Every state has a no-fault divorce, but there are different requirements. If you go to about.com and search for "[your state] divorce" there'll be a page that covers what you have to do at the minimum. If it's amicable and there's no property or kids to divide, it's pretty simple, although there may be limitations on how soon you can do it if she's just moving out now.
my wife for 15 years and me have had loads of ups and downs, but in the end we always realize we are a pretty kick ass couple and keep on truckin'
So basically what ceres said, though my marriage lasted a whole lot longer than it should have simply because my ex was deployed/underway/just gone for the majority of the time we were married. I definitely struggled with being embarrassed about it and with feeling like I had failed in my duty to be married, but a lot of personal development (including therapy) helped me to realize that it really does take two people to make or break a marriage--and if you are the wrong people for each other from the get-go there's a very small chance for success.
Its not clear from your OP if you and your spouse have discussed counseling, separation and/or divorce or what avenue you've specifically decided on, but assuming that it's the latter I would suggest trying to find out if your state/locality offers what's called pro se divorce. If you can both agree on what you own and feel comfortable enough with each other to do so without a lawyer, pro se divorce allows you to do so.
And again, hugs. If you want to ask questions about my personal experience my PM box is always open.
I'm not a lawyer, and consulting one certainly wouldn't hurt. However, my ex and I were able to, for the most part, split things amicably, and we didn't need a lawyer. Get some info on the local laws about it and see what's necessary. We put all of our agreements in writing and had them notarized, and that was good enough for the judge.
Okay, now that I'm of a not-so-emotionally-charged mind, here's the gist of it: we have a few primary issues that, on a person to person basis, wouldn't be really abnormal for anyone (I think). Just normal personality traits. For me, and I personally blame part of it on how I was raised in my disfunctional family, but when I get angry I have to find an outlet for that. I know that sends up red flags, but you'd have to know me and my closest, honest friends can attest to this. If I get really frustrated by something, the easiest outlet I have is to do minimal to no damage to something invaluable. Smash a tin can. Kick a brick wall. It has NEVER been hurting someone else, and I abhor the thought of domestic abuse, or hurting anything people or animal at all. It makes me sick to think about it. I feel like I kind of have to defend this because I don't want people jumping to the wrong conclusions. So there's that, and there's also the part of me that is exceptionally laid back. Definitely pro procrastination, but I do get things done. I don't live in a trashed house like some people I know. The yard is taken care of. I'm not having bill collections breathing down my back. I just do things whenever I get in the mood to do them. Lastly, in regards to sex, I have a near-constant libido. Like I never grew out of being 16. In contrast is my wife: she doesn't like most showings of negative emotion because they link to her dad. I believe this in part from what she's told me, and part I'm just guessing. She could also just not like people being angry, which is of course normal. She likes things very ordered and planned, and I think this is where we contrast the most. Maybe in the beginning it was part of the attraction, but I can see where this would become a problem when two people have to live complete lives together. Thirdly, her libido in short is not as active as mine. While I know that's normal, it's been an issue before (less of one now that we're not living with roommates who were near rabbits, basically) when she goes through long period of well withdraw.
So last Friday she's leaving to go on a family trip and it happens that morning that we get into another argument. Except this time, there is no quick fix. Not for a few days. There's apologies, sure, but there's no discussion, no talking. It makes me, and probably her, ponder why we fight so often, what causes it, what it's doing to us, etc. It makes both of us think. And what I realized, more than before, that we're just in congruent. And to make matters worse, we married to soon. I can finally admit that and not make excuses. We were having personality clashes then and when I thought I saw us drifting apart (when in reality we were still pretty close, just close enough now to see the rough edges if that makes sense), so I proposed to bring us closer. Any time there's a big event, eg a new place, a big trip, the wedding, some big distraction makes us happy and there's no fighting for awhile. And when I say fight, I mean an argument every couple of weeks. Only rarely, very rarely, have they devolved into a shouting match. So like I said I realized that we just have these differing personalities, and we've been able to vaguely spell-out what irritated us about each other before, now I was able to see clearly. And after seeing that, I figured out that the only way for us to work was to be able to 100% accept each other for the people we were. That didn't mean "Oh I know he's like that but it irritates me". No, to honestly know and expect how the other was, not to encourage that behavior but also not to constantly hold that against them and it went for both of us.
Now when she got home, while I wanted to talk (whenever she was ready) about what I figured out, and hear her thoughts, it became an argument. I don't know if either of us were fully to blame because she just finished an 8-hour drive, and I was still sick, so while I wasn't cornering her into a pressured talk, she might've felt that way and replied with "What's it matter if we talk later, it's just going to end up the same way and we'll fight again". I told her this time it was different; I didn't want the same thing every time and I mentioned divorce but at first she acted like I was just bluffing. It wasn't until later that I came back into the room, told her how I felt about us marrying too young, why I proposed, how we're different, how I still love her, and then how if we couldn't figure out how to accept one another it wasn't going to work and I didn't want to drag things out, that she finally realized. It was about that time she packed up went to her friends and that's when I broke down and after about an hour started looking for help wherever. See first post.
Thank god for good friends, I did have a friend who upon texting "I think I just agreed to a divorce", he immediately came over no questions. He mostly just listened. And later that night my wife came back, friend went home.
This is where things lay now: me and the wife want it to work. We know it's going to be hard. And we both know the end result if we can't. And really don't want to throw away 6 years of a relationship that, sure, it had issues, but we also had a lot of fun. Like Bwanie said, a lot of times we just work out in the end. So I'm looking for options on marriage counseling. I'm not throwing in the towel just yet. Thank you, all of you guys, for being there. For now, I'm not getting a divorce. Hopefully, we won't have to.
3DS FC: 4699-5714-8940 Playing Pokemon, add me! Ho, SATAN!
Whether it works or it doesn't in the end, don't be too hard on yourselves.
Glad you guys are trying to work things out though, good luck!
if you both really feel that way and are willing to put in the effort to either change yourself or understand the other, you've got a good chance.
best of luck to both of you.
To put my two cents in, even though I'm different from your personality and my wife was different from your wife's personality, there were a lot of similar elements. Namely, my wife stated at the end that she felt that she married me when I asked because she believed if she said no, it was the end of the relationship, and she didn't necessarily want the relationship to end. And I proposed under similar circumstances, ultimately -- I asked her because I felt "well, I like her, I don't see us breaking up, so why not?" Why not is kind of a bad reason to marry someone, even if your heart is in the right place.
It sounds like you two are starting to see a lot of the surface incongruities more clearly, and that may reveal the deeper ones. For example, of course my libido differed from my ex-wife's, but the split and the arguments wasn't about sex -- it was about affection, intimacy, how we expressed it to each other, and what we needed from our partner to be happy.
Similarly, as with any relationship, there's compromise where you have a disagreement and agree to work to be a little different. In my case, my ex-wife would point out something that I did or didn't do, and say that she would like it if I changed that behavior. Often it was good things that she wanted me to change, so it wasn't just petty things. Over time, though, I realized that the things I changed about myself were making me unhappy, and she was not putting in any effort of her own to change herself. For example, I mention the libido difference again because you say the same thing in your post. My ex-wife said that it made her uncomfortable to feel pressured into sex, and it made her want sex less. So I agreed to not bring it up or be pushy about it, stating that if me asking about sex caused her to not want to have sex, then it makes sense that I simply don't bring it up. At the time, we both assumed that it would lead to us having more sex, but the opposite was true -- without me bringing it up, she simply didn't think about it, which made me more unhappy even though I had changed my behavior to suit her.
We communicated openly to each other about our problems, but as our relationship went on we realized the inherent incongruities in our personalities. Sadly, many of these personality traits are things you don't realize until you've been with someone for a very long time. But you discover those basic incompatibilities through communication and being honest with each other, and that's also the same way to discover ways past them, if they exist. I wish you luck, but don't beat yourself up if it doesn't work out.
I don't mean to sound rude but I understand why she stormed off. People argue. Having an argument once every two weeks that isn't a shouting match doesn't sound like express ticket to divorce city.
Maybe you should look into some kind of anger management because violent behavior toward objects is intimidating and not really okay at all. If it upsets her and you still feel the need to do it, then at least put on the nice face and then go off elsewhere and hit something.
You bring up chores or procrastination, but you don't really explain why. This gives me the impression that there is some disagreement about housework. You say you like procrastination but you still get things done. So if there is some kind of argument about getting the chores done, why don't you just not procrastinate? Set up some kind of schedule for yourself and stick to it. It won't cast you into a pit of misery to do chores on a schedule instead of whenever you feel like it.
Libido issues can usually be worked out, unless they are super drastically different. Getting upset about these differences usually just makes it worse. This will involve you wheeling it back a little. Make time for each other for romance. Go on dates. It's easy to get into relationship being static and never doing anything. Make time for each other. If there is still a gap in libido then there is always porn. It's why the internet is great.
I'd keep the divorce talk to a minimum. Work on talking about solutions to your problems. Don't go with the nuclear option right away.
but they're listening to every word I say
This is absolutely true. If you can't find a better way to work out your emotions, you need to seek out someone who can help you with it.
I just got back from work and I want to restate this again because I think it is so important.
It doesn't matter if you abhor violence and it makes you sick. It doesn't matter of you are Gandhi. Getting in an argument and then hitting something is threatening. You may not literally say "I'm going to hurt you", but by acting in such a manner you are speaking a universal language that says "I'm going to hurt you" and she is absolutely in the right to feel threatened and upset about your actions. It is equivalent to a threat.
Because of this it sends the message "We can't talk about our problems because if we do, and I don't like the things you say, I am going to threaten you". You have built a wall where you cannot discuss your problems.
but they're listening to every word I say
Work out what works for you. Remember, if you had to spend all day every day with your childhood best friend, you probably would have murdered them by now.
I think there's a point in there somewhere.
Oh, also learn to lose an argument. They really don't matter.
Be Zen.
Never be smug. Unless you can pull it off in an infuriatingly cute way.
Where do I go from here? Do I really need to lawyer up if it's completely civil between us? Already there's been semi-joking talk about who gets what. There's never been an issue among us on what's hers and mine. We still have separate bank accounts, just because of how we like to handle our money in different ways. She's already acknowledged that she can't afford to live on her own, and I've accepted that I'm going to keep renting this place. It'll be costly, but I'll cut costs where I can, sell some things, and save up extra money in case I do need to move out. I've also been pondering moving out of state, starting a new life, but that's not until much later, once this is all settled. There was no ... shot, the thing you draft before a marriage. Pre-something. Anyways, none of that. No big expenses between us. My truck is my truck, her car is her car.
And then there's the basic stuff. Do I just go down to the courts and get a, what, divorce license? Set a court date? I'm really oblivious where to go from here. It's not like there's as many how-to shows on divorces as there are weddings. And above all, thank you guys for all your help and advice. This is going to be a hard time for me; I don't think it's nearly hit me yet, and this weekend will probably be hell. Thank you for being a good bunch of people I can count on.
3DS FC: 4699-5714-8940 Playing Pokemon, add me! Ho, SATAN!
I'm generally of the opinion that professional counseling is a great idea, especially if your insurance covers it. I doubt this will be a painless thing and having someone who's not a friend but a professional to talk to and work things out with may be very helpful! Plus the counselor will likely be a bit more comfortable helping you identify places you might want to work on changing with regards to your anger and personality.
I'm not sure where you are within the US or anything but just in case things get particularly bad you might see if there's a depression center nearby. I worked at an emergency psych unit for awhile in grad school that was affiliated with the network of depression centers. Even if you don't go there physically just giving them a call they may be able to direct you to services in your area. Be good man.
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http://nndc.org/members [/url]
I'm so sorry that you're going through it, it sucks, it's awful and it's going to be really difficult but it sounds like it may be what you both need. As it is, I'll give you what advice I can:
Definitely try to pursue counseling independently, you may find a low-cost therapist by using the resources that Lando listed above, you may be able to find one through your insurance, and your employer may offer a number a free counseling sessions through their EAP (employee assistance program). The EAP may also offer you a number of free consultations with a lawyer.
Since the two of you seem to be pretty amicable, depending on what state your in they may call it something different, you'll want to look for something called "pro se" divorce which is essentially a do-it-yourself divorce. Most of the forms and instructions should be available on the courthouses website and often times the court clerk will help you figure out how to fill out the forms yourself.
In Connecticut where I got divorced, I filed the pro se paperwork, had my soon-to-be ex husband served with the a copy (which involved getting a marshall to deliver it, but they provided a list of available people in the downloadable forms), enduring the waiting period (three months), showed up to court to talk to the judge, and waited (another week or so) for the official divorce decree in the mail. We had no kids, no mixed bank accounts or property so divvying up our stuff was really quite easy.
Honestly the divorce paperwork process itself was much less difficult than the emotional rollercoaster I went through while getting all of that done, and counseling helped me immensely.
So many hugs dude, if you need anything let me know.
When you described yours and your wife's personality differences, it was like you were describing me and my fiancee. We've been together for over ten years, though, and living together for about four. I remember the first year we lived together... it was insane. I'm of the belief that it doesn't matter how well you think you know someone, it really all comes out when you are living together. Our personality differences became more than just interesting things we knew about each other; they were now conflicting things we had to overcome. My messiness met her obsessive cleanliness. Eventually, you have to learn to compromise in all things. She accepts that I might leave a pair of jeans hanging over the bench in the bedroom, and I accept that she doesn't want to wake up in the morning to a few empty beer bottles on the counter in front of the coffee machine.
Compromise. Good luck, and keep the open mind and understanding that you've demonstrated so far in your posts.
Maybe what you need is time apart so you can work on yourselves a little and then see if life brings you two back together again. I've had a pair of friends and a brother-in-law separate or divorce before, sometimes for financial reasons (they are still very much in love and a couple just separated) and other times for very emotional and angry reasons like infidelity. With this being more on the amicable side I'd say keep things going with the divorce if that's what you both feel is needed and if things get tense, take a break or bring in a third party like a lawyer or counselor and talk through them if you must.
Also, I don't ascribe to the idea that there's only one other person out there for us. So even if it may feel to you like this is the last shot you have or like now you're damaged goods don't hold onto it. People survive divorce and live happy and fulfilling lives and you can certainly be one of those people.
I also don't believe in that idea, Lando. I'm an open person; I like and care for a lot of people. I never used to be this way; I think part of our issues started back in high school because here's the one girl who I had a connection with, we shared a ton and it was rapidly growing relationship. But we're both good people, this split isn't out of any damaging violation of our relationship, and I think we'll be okay in the end. I've been talking to a friend throughout this, and he says after time, he can see us showing up at the same backyard bbq or something and still being okay with one another.
The weird thing is going to be talking to my family and co-workers. Only one of the latter has any clue we've been having relationship problems, and my family has been kept out of it on purpose. It's already a strained relationship with them. Long term, I am definitely considering moving, potentially down to the Bay Area to be near my half-sister and her family. That's from a lot of factors but none of that will happen for at least a year or two, if at all.
3DS FC: 4699-5714-8940 Playing Pokemon, add me! Ho, SATAN!
3DS FC: 4699-5714-8940 Playing Pokemon, add me! Ho, SATAN!
I'm just paranoid as fuck when it comes to separations.
On that note, she's going to stay with a friend tonight. I don't think she's talked to her family yet about it, and she's spending the whole day with them on a trip to see her brother. I feel for her. I haven't told anyone except my best friend. I think I may call up my sister tonight.
3DS FC: 4699-5714-8940 Playing Pokemon, add me! Ho, SATAN!
And there's no assets to speak of, really. The only thing in question is my car, which was a gift via she refinanced her car, and gave me the check to pay for a used clunker. She acknowledges this, and even when I said "Well you paid for it, you'd be entitled for it if you wanted" she said she'd never take that away from me, partly because she gave it to me as a gift, partly because of all the work I put into it. I'm not worried about that in the slightest. The other thing that might possibly be an issue is the down payment on the house (rental), but we're going to talk about that tomorrow. That and living arrangements and insurance and taxes and how long before we want to go from separated to ink-on-the-paper divorced. There's no shared bank accounts, no credit cards in both of our names (she has one, I have none). No outstanding debt besides her car loan and her credit card, and she acknowledges those are her responsibility.
3DS FC: 4699-5714-8940 Playing Pokemon, add me! Ho, SATAN!
Until legal documents are signed, the car is both of yours, the debts are both of yours (I believe, IANAL just paranoid), retirement plans are both of yours, everything is both of yours until legal documents are signed.
edit: Its entirely possible you both are on the up and up. I don't mean to rail on this.
There are no retirement plans.
And I understand, it's a precaution.
3DS FC: 4699-5714-8940 Playing Pokemon, add me! Ho, SATAN!
If you can't afford to live on your own and she can't afford to live on her own . . . why doesn't the person who stays in the apartment get some roommates, while the other person moves into a different apartment with, again, roommates?
Sorry you're going through this and good luck.