You know, it's funny, but people keep acting as if I'm a legal realist (this is a term of art), saying that "if it's law, it's good and just". I'm not. What I am saying though is that legal scholars, debating the points for decades now, have agreed that a draft is both moral and constitutional.
Moreover, I'd love to see your cogent, well thought-out argument why a draft isn't morally right, much less why its not constitutional.
because i got nothin against no viet cong! no vietnamese ever called me a nigger!
If the writing was such "dogshit", I struggle to wonder how you'd have written it.
Just so you know, this is the absolute worst counter to any argument in history. "I'd like to see you do better" implies that someone can't have any opinion on anything unless they are professionals. That's dumb. And ridiculous.
We'll just have to see if he can mount a legal challenge from his current prison, then. If not, and if nobody else can, then the point is legitimized.
Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that Cap almost certainly would have been sent to to 42 and, since none of the prison's occupants could do anything from their cells (unless they were too lazy to), would likely have been helpless from there. It's moot now, but at the time it was a valid justification for his going underground.
(a) People can file petitions for a writ of Habeas Corpus on your behalf, as is the case with the Gitmo prisoners in the real world. Even if Rogers were being held in 42, somene could have filed on his behalf if they had an appropriate relationship.
(b) Editorial statements have indicated and confirmed that only villains were to be stored in 42 permanently. The indications are that the heroes there temporarily were only there because of Rogers' ongoing insurrection which (obviously) would have tried to rescue them to get reinforcements.
If the writing was such "dogshit", I struggle to wonder how you'd have written it.
Just so you know, this is the absolute worst counter to any argument in history. "I'd like to see you do better" implies that someone can't have any opinion on anything unless they are professionals. That's dumb. And ridiculous.
You're correct, if I were using it to refute his argument. I'd refuted his argument earlier, and was now just responding to his comment about writing. I've agreed that there are writing problems with the series, but here I was calling the person out on being pointlessly obscene.
Vulgarity has its place, and can be fun. Hell (!), it can be plain funny (I love Family Guy and South Park as much as anyone. That said, when it's used for no reason - such as calling the writing in CW dogshit - it just becomes stupid and pointless.
We'll just have to see if he can mount a legal challenge from his current prison, then. If not, and if nobody else can, then the point is legitimized.
Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that Cap almost certainly would have been sent to to 42 and, since none of the prison's occupants could do anything from their cells (unless they were too lazy to), would likely have been helpless from there. It's moot now, but at the time it was a valid justification for his going underground.
(a) People can file petitions for a writ of Habeas Corpus on your behalf, as is the case with the Gitmo prisoners in the real world. Even if Rogers were being held in 42, somene could have filed on his behalf if they had an appropriate relationship.
(b) Editorial statements have indicated and confirmed that only villains were to be stored in 42 permanently. The indications are that the heroes there temporarily were only there because of Rogers' ongoing insurrection which (obviously) would have tried to rescue them to get reinforcements.
What constitutes an appropriate relationship?
At the same time, were the Secret Avengers privy to the editorial statements made by the story's creators or, at least, the information available within them? If not, then how could they be expected to act with that information in mind?
If the writing was such "dogshit", I struggle to wonder how you'd have written it.
Just so you know, this is the absolute worst counter to any argument in history. "I'd like to see you do better" implies that someone can't have any opinion on anything unless they are professionals. That's dumb. And ridiculous.
You're correct, if I were using it to refute his argument. I'd refuted his argument earlier, and was now just responding to his comment about writing. I've agreed that there are writing problems with the series, but here I was calling the person out on being pointlessly obscene.
Vulgarity has its place, and can be fun. Hell (!), it can be plain funny (I love Family Guy and South Park as much as anyone. That said, when it's used for no reason - such as calling the writing in CW dogshit - it just becomes stupid and pointless.
to be fair though, the writing was fuckass dickdrip shitsplatter
You know, it's funny, but people keep acting as if I'm a legal realist (this is a term of art), saying that "if it's law, it's good and just". I'm not. What I am saying though is that legal scholars, debating the points for decades now, have agreed that a draft is both moral and constitutional.
Moreover, I'd love to see your cogent, well thought-out argument why a draft isn't morally right, much less why its not constitutional.
because i got nothin against no viet cong! no vietnamese ever called me a nigger!
This is a reference, unless I'm mistaken, to Muhammed Ali/Cascius Clay's explanation for why he refused to enter the armed forces. If not, I assume it's a more general reference to why many blacks refused.
That, actually, is a fair point. At the time of the Vietnam War - when the draft was in full force - blacks were still being openly discriminated against in a severe fashion. The argument then was that if the USA wasn't going to afford full rights to the black citizens, then why should those black citizens be forced to register for the draft, much less to serve?
I believe I've summarized your point, right?
The answer is simple: this isn't an appropriate draft. Unlike 1960s-70s era blacks, superheroes aren't discriminated against unconstitutionally. Equal Protection demands that blacks be treated like all other races (here, it assumes the existence of race) because there is no meaningful difference between the races as far as rights are concerned. I've explained this before.
On the other hand, the SHRA targets superheroes (or rather, superpowered individuals) because they are the only means available to counter the superpowered criminals. As I've explained time and time again, ALL civil rights may be infringed, if that infringement survives strict scrutiny. Strict scrutiny only requires a "compelling state interest" (here, fighting the supercriminals) and the chosen means to be "the least restrictive means possible" (here, registering the only superpowered people available, and if they want to help, forcing them to be trained).
As I explained earlier this afternoon, this is actually WAY better than the real American draft, in that you never serve unless you want to. You can register, and go sit at home and waste your powers. Or, you can get trained and - if you want - become a SHIELD employee. If you choose to enlist, that's your call, but it's got responsibilities attached (just like in the real world).
I should have unpacked this question earlier. Basically, their "next friend" in legal terms.
There needs to be a "valid reason" (explained in a moment) for a "next friend" to petition for the writ of habeas. If so, then that friend can proceed. (Figueroa v. Rivera, 147 F.3d 77 (1st Cir. 1998).
One example of a valid reason is incompetance (in the legal sense), where his or her guardian ad litem acquires standing to file the petition (Harris By and Through Ramseyer v. Wood, 64 F.3d 1432 (9th Cir. 1995)). In such a situation, you have to show meaningful evidence for the prisoner having mental disease, disorder, or defect that "substantially affects his or her capacity" for rational decision-making. (Minerva v. Singeltary, 4 F.3d 938 (11th Cir. 1993), cert. dismissed 509 U.S. 944 (1993)).
Recently, in the much publicized Padilla v. Rumsfeld case, the Supreme Court affirmed that counsel for a prisoner being held incommunicado as an "enemy combatant" (as Rogers et al. would have been held in 42) had sufficient standing due to their relationship.
Basically, all Rogers had to do was make a call to ACLU or some other Civil Rights group, take them on as his counsel, and they could take it from there. Even if you assume he was right to flee the Cape Killer units that 'attacked' him initially, this means the next step was to seek counsel not to launch an armed rebellion.
At the same time, were the Secret Avengers privy to the editorial statements made by the story's creators or, at least, the information available within them? If not, then how could they be expected to act with that information in mind?
See, here's the thing: none of them looked into it.
As the story shows, all of them made their decision to go with Rogers (as Rogers himself did) without reading the SHRA. They never made inquiries into details, nor into the legal validity of the SHRA.
See, here's the thing: none of them looked into it.
As the story shows, all of them made their decision to go with Rogers (as Rogers himself did) without reading the SHRA. They never made inquiries into details, nor into the legal validity of the SHRA.
now i don't think i believe that
you'll have to prove that one to me
here's the way i see it- maria hill had her shield goons draw down on cap, who, being cap, kicked their asses while running away. now, i don't think it's unreasonable to assume that, say, cloak and dagger didn't read the entire act and just joined up with cap because he's captain friggin america and who wouldn't, but you'll have to cite the panel and issue where the man (who memorizes pages and pages of mark twain such is his love for the country he represents) himself didn't read the act that would have this big an impact on him and his world before it got to the point of him surfing an f-14 down to kansas
See, if it was to fight some big menace that was threatening the planet, and SHIELD needed everyone together, then the draft would have a decent purpose.
Thing is, that kind of stuff has happen quite a few times before, and the heroes banded together all on their own with no need for Capekillers and mind-destroying prisons. So the only reason I can see for Adolph Stark and the Iron Youth to force people to register is so that they can have an army of heroes under their thumb.
I mean hell, look what Stark told Jessica Jones, and she wasn't even a hero anymore.
See, here's the thing: none of them looked into it.
As the story shows, all of them made their decision to go with Rogers (as Rogers himself did) without reading the SHRA. They never made inquiries into details, nor into the legal validity of the SHRA.
now i don't think i believe that
you'll have to prove that one to me
here's the way i see it- maria hill had her shield goons draw down on cap, who, being cap, kicked their asses while running away. now, i don't think it's unreasonable to assume that, say, cloak and dagger didn't read the entire act and just joined up with cap because he's captain friggin america and who wouldn't, but you'll have to cite the panel and issue where the man (who memorizes pages and pages of mark twain such is his love for the country he represents) himself didn't read the act that would have this big an impact on him and his world before it got to the point of him surfing an f-14 down to kansas
Fair question. I'm on break (ah, sun!) so I don't have issues in front of me so forgive a bit of imprecision, please. In fact, I may have mispoken there: we know empirically he didn't understand SHRA since he was so wrong about its legality and constitutionality. He may have read it - in fact, if you're right that he memorizes Mark Twain (I'm not familiar with that, but it sounds plausible so I'll take it on your word) - then it seems likely. The problem (as I described earlier today) is that he was ill-equipped to understand it apparently.
Law can be hard to analyze, that's why we have three years of training in how to read laws, how to analyze cases, and how to make predictions about legal interpretations by judges. Rogers may be brilliant, but that doesn't make him a laywer.
Assume for the moment that Hill was utterly wrong to have the cape killers draw a bead on Rogers (she actually might have had a justification, but let's leave that issue aside). Rogers busts out dramatically (like CW or hate it, that was an awesome sequence). He goes straight underground, never contacting any lawyers (since, if he had, they would have said "fists never change laws"). I don't have the issue in front of me, so I can't remember the exact dialogue, but nothing in it even suggested that Rogers had read the SHRA. You may be right, and he may have read it. That doesn't change the fact that the conclusion he reached - that SHRA was illegal and/or unconstitutional - is unreasonable from a legal perspective.
I'll stick with my earlier medical analogy: it's as if nurse told him "A doctor tells me that you've got appendicitis, and we'll need to remove it." Rogers then, without medical training, reads his chart and says "I know better than doctors about my body - I'm Captain America!" and refuses to submit to surgery. In fact, he starts going around and convincing people who have appendicitis not to get surgery. They even start actively fighting with the doctors who are trying to perform appendectomies.
No doubt, they have good intentions. That doesn't mean they're right. They're ill-trained and/or ill-educated regarding medical analyses, and they came to the wrong conclusion. If only they'd been registered with the government and then trained by SHIELD, maybe they wouldn't have caused several dozen innocent civilians to die when their appendixes burst.
See, if it was to fight some big menace that was threatening the planet, and SHIELD needed everyone together, then the draft would have a decent purpose.
Remember that in the Marvel Universe, Parker only got his powers around fifteen years ago. That sets a maximum timeframe for everything that's happened in the past.
Marvel Americans have seen the sudden appearance in the span of a quarter-generation of countless supervillains. They've seen people suddenly destroying cars, buildings, etc. while trying to save lives. They've started to have to dive into subways to avoid becoming collateral damage.
What's the threat? The threat is the sudden swarm of supervillains that are always around. Even if we assume only the events we see in comics occur - that there are no "off screen" fights - that means dozens of fights a month. It's a constant occurence.
Hell, a short while ago, Thor moved the entire island of Asgard to float over NYC and caused all sorts of problems.
Not to mention things like Maximum Carnage where a ton of murders were perpetuated by a creature that is - let's face it - entirely Spider-Man's fault (if he'd been better about containing the symbiote, we'd never have Venom much less Carnage). It's trite, but how many times has the Green Goblin gotten out of jail and killed more people? (yeah, this is part of why it's stupid that Stark hired Osborne as part of the Thunderbolts).
Thing is, that kind of stuff has happen quite a few times before, and the heroes banded together all on their own with no need for Capekillers and mind-destroying prisons. So the only reason I can see for Adolph Stark and the Iron Youth to force people to register is so that they can have an army of heroes under their thumb.
I mean hell, look what Stark told Jessica Jones, and she wasn't even a hero anymore.
If you need to resort to calling Stark a Hitler, you're not prepared to debate. Ad hominem attacks are pointless: all they do is reveal your inability to consider the alternative.
The heroes banding together do not fix all the problems: they keep capturing these villians, but the villains never stay in jail. More supervillains keep appearing. It's a compelling state interest to find a better way to stop these people. The existing method - of random vigilantes - isn't working at all. At best, it's a stable equillibrium. At worst, it's getting worse and worse.
With Decimation eliminating most mutants, it was the perfect opportunity for the government to try and solve the problem proactively.
Fair question. I'm on break (ah, sun!) so I don't have issues in front of me so forgive a bit of imprecision, please. In fact, I may have mispoken there: we know empirically he didn't understand SHRA since he was so wrong about its legality and constitutionality. He may have read it - in fact, if you're right that he memorizes Mark Twain (I'm not familiar with that, but it sounds plausible so I'll take it on your word) - then it seems likely. The problem (as I described earlier today) is that he was ill-equipped to understand it apparently.
Law can be hard to analyze, that's why we have three years of training in how to read laws, how to analyze cases, and how to make predictions about legal interpretations by judges. Rogers may be brilliant, but that doesn't make him a laywer.
Assume for the moment that Hill was utterly wrong to have the cape killers draw a bead on Rogers (she actually might have had a justification, but let's leave that issue aside). Rogers busts out dramatically (like CW or hate it, that was an awesome sequence). He goes straight underground, never contacting any lawyers (since, if he had, they would have said "fists never change laws"). I don't have the issue in front of me, so I can't remember the exact dialogue, but nothing in it even suggested that Rogers had read the SHRA. You may be right, and he may have read it. That doesn't change the fact that the conclusion he reached - that SHRA was illegal and/or unconstitutional - is unreasonable from a legal perspective.
I'll stick with my earlier medical analogy: it's as if nurse told him "A doctor tells me that you've got appendicitis, and we'll need to remove it." Rogers then, without medical training, reads his chart and says "I know better than doctors about my body - I'm Captain America!" and refuses to submit to surgery. In fact, he starts going around and convincing people who have appendicitis not to get surgery. They even start actively fighting with the doctors who are trying to perform appendectomies.
No doubt, they have good intentions. That doesn't mean they're right. They're ill-trained and/or ill-educated regarding medical analyses, and they came to the wrong conclusion. If only they'd been registered with the government and then trained by SHIELD, maybe they wouldn't have caused several dozen innocent civilians to die when their appendixes burst.
i both agree and disagree
it can and is difficult to understand the wording of the law (any law), i fully grant you that. my dad's a lawyer, and i have to ask him to help me through legal wording all the time. however, i think what mattered in terms of the story is that steve knew the intentions of the act, and when he was informed by maria hill that he would be obligated under it to hunt down his friends and possibly hurt them quite badly, he couldn't in good conscience reconcile those actions with his feelings. what maria hill tried to make him do told him everything about the way the act was going to be enforced that he wanted to know. it is, i think, not even about the legal document itself, but the actions of the people who were going to enforce it. (his actions, i mean)
and i have to say that the medical analogy seems like something of a false one, in that it was be more like the nurse telling him 'here is a list of all the people who need appendectomies today go get 'em cap' and cap felt that it was those people's right to choose whether or not they want treatment, so he crashed an f-14 into the ground again.
and the mark twait stuff was in a civil war tie-in (asm, i think) actually. i'm going to find the scans now because it's an awesome scene
I just wanted to point out something from the Brevoort interview, beyond the whole gnashing-of-teeth and wailing-voices paron some peoples' part:
Maybe Tony would have gleefully tossed Cap in there had he submitted earlier, or maybe not. He's not, AFAIK, sitting in 42 post-surrender. To that end, I think some concerns about how he could have mounted a legal challenge may be in retrospect overblown.
2 issues with that though.
1. At this point, 42 has been wrecked to hell by 2 escape attempts.
2. They put DareFist in there, along with many others.
Unless you count anyone arrested to be a villain.
Considering SHIELD's initial actions against Cap, I'd be inclined to distrust them
.
And aside from SHIELD reacting semi-violently to someone under their command going rogue, he knew, what, none of that?
there's some contextual stuff here but basically spidey has just come to cap after defecting from tony's side and he asks cap how he can do this with the whole country against him and cap's response is
Remember that in the Marvel Universe, Parker only got his powers around fifteen years ago. That sets a maximum timeframe for everything that's happened in the past.
Marvel Americans have seen the sudden appearance in the span of a quarter-generation of countless supervillains. They've seen people suddenly destroying cars, buildings, etc. while trying to save lives. They've started to have to dive into subways to avoid becoming collateral damage.
What's the threat? The threat is the sudden swarm of supervillains that are always around. Even if we assume only the events we see in comics occur - that there are no "off screen" fights - that means dozens of fights a month. It's a constant occurence.
Hell, a short while ago, Thor moved the entire island of Asgard to float over NYC and caused all sorts of problems.
Not to mention things like Maximum Carnage where a ton of murders were perpetuated by a creature that is - let's face it - entirely Spider-Man's fault (if he'd been better about containing the symbiote, we'd never have Venom much less Carnage). It's trite, but how many times has the Green Goblin gotten out of jail and killed more people? (yeah, this is part of why it's stupid that Stark hired Osborne as part of the Thunderbolts).
And funny, things like an entire nation of millions of people getting nuked didn't cause backlash like Stamford did. Nor did Magneto killing thousands in Manhatten. Almost like the PTB at Marvel wanted it to happen...
If you need to resort to calling Stark a Hitler, you're not prepared to debate. Ad hominem attacks are pointless: all they do is reveal your inability to consider the alternative.
Actually, I'm quoting Warren Ellis, as I think Adolph Stark and the Iron Youth is funny.
Someone asked him about Nextwave appearing in Thunderbolts.
Warren Ellis: No chance of seeing Nextwave in TBolts, no. What I can promise is Robbie Emo Stabby Boy in his underwear, Norman Osborn taking more pills, Moonstone deciding that some people are in her way, and the return of more cannon fodder. I mean, the return of more old superheroes who never bothered to get registered with Adolf Stark and the Iron Youth, or whatever those people are called. And, frankly, if you think the TBolts screwed up the Jack Flag situation, you're going to be amazed by the FUBAR condition their next mission will turn into.
there's some contextual stuff here but basically spidey has just come to cap after defecting from tony's side and he asks cap how he can do this with the whole country against him and cap's response is
but then he got tackled by a firefighter and well
anyway, i just like that scene
Agreed, it's a great scene. Twain was right, that you must stand up for your morals.
The problem is that Rogers misread what "no, you move" meant. It meant what MLK, Jr. thought it meant: you change the system.
Rogers picked a technique that, if he had thought about it for an instant, he should have immediately realized would be futile. He couldn't have honestly believed that - after watching his rebels cause all this damage - people would come about to his side. He picked a method of Standing Up that would never accomplish his goal.
The method that would have accomplished his goal - and here, we're beating a dead horse - was to proceed through the legal system.
The beauty of America is that everyone is able to stand in front of Lady Justice and plead his case. Every American can fight the laws of our land, because every American can challenge them.
Rogers believed himself to be above that legal process. He believed that he was the one who got to decide what was right and what was wrong, and that he didn't need to fix the problems the same way a normal American would.
I mentioned it before: what would Rogers have said to a young man in prison - in jail for violating a law that the young man believed to be immoral, e.g. pot possession - who didn't want to wait out the judicial process? Would Rogers have broken him out of jail, and helped him to find a military group that would battle for the elimination of laws that prohibit possession of pot?
Rogers only cares about this law because it's him. He doesn't support the violate rebellion against any other laws. He's not breaking blacks out of jail because they're not treated equally under the law. He's not beating up CFOs because women are paid less in the workplace.
The only law he resorted to violence against was the law that would finally make Captain America responsible for his actions as Captain America.
And funny, things like an entire nation of millions of people getting nuked didn't cause backlash like Stamford did. Nor did Magneto killing thousands in Manhatten. Almost like the PTB at Marvel wanted it to happen...
Yeah, it's almost like Marvel Americans don't care as much about mutants as they do flatscans (wait...).
No one is denying that everything that happens in fiction is a function of the writers'/editors' whims.
Actually, I'm quoting Warren Ellis, as I think Adolph Stark and the Iron Youth is funny.
Someone asked him about Nextwave appearing in Thunderbolts.
Warren Ellis: No chance of seeing Nextwave in TBolts, no. What I can promise is Robbie Emo Stabby Boy in his underwear, Norman Osborn taking more pills, Moonstone deciding that some people are in her way, and the return of more cannon fodder. I mean, the return of more old superheroes who never bothered to get registered with Adolf Stark and the Iron Youth, or whatever those people are called. And, frankly, if you think the TBolts screwed up the Jack Flag situation, you're going to be amazed by the FUBAR condition their next mission will turn into.
Warren Ellis is a great artist (I love Transmetropolitan). That doesn't mean he's above the rhetorical rule that calling people Hitler is an attempt to end the debate through appeal to emotion.
Stark never ordered the genocide of entire races.
Stark never got 20 million russians killed.
Stark never had a gestapo that had lampshades made from human skin.
It is disgusting to compare anyone who is just a bad guy to Hitler. It denigrates the memory of WWII and its victims, especially those in the Holocaust. It denigrates the horrible destruction that man reaped upon the world.
there's some contextual stuff here but basically spidey has just come to cap after defecting from tony's side and he asks cap how he can do this with the whole country against him and cap's response is
but then he got tackled by a firefighter and well
anyway, i just like that scene
Agreed, it's a great scene. Twain was right, that you must stand up for your morals.
The problem is that Rogers misread what "no, you move" meant. It meant what MLK, Jr. thought it meant: you change the system.
Rogers picked a technique that, if he had thought about it for an instant, he should have immediately realized would be futile. He couldn't have honestly believed that - after watching his rebels cause all this damage - people would come about to his side. He picked a method of Standing Up that would never accomplish his goal.
The method that would have accomplished his goal - and here, we're beating a dead horse - was to proceed through the legal system.
The beauty of America is that everyone is able to stand in front of Lady Justice and plead his case. Every American can fight the laws of our land, because every American can challenge them.
Rogers believed himself to be above that legal process. He believed that he was the one who got to decide what was right and what was wrong, and that he didn't need to fix the problems the same way a normal American would.
I mentioned it before: what would Rogers have said to a young man in prison - in jail for violating a law that the young man believed to be immoral, e.g. pot possession - who didn't want to wait out the judicial process? Would Rogers have broken him out of jail, and helped him to find a military group that would battle for the elimination of laws that prohibit possession of pot?
Rogers only cares about this law because it's him. He doesn't support the violate rebellion against any other laws. He's not breaking blacks out of jail because they're not treated equally under the law. He's not beating up CFOs because women are paid less in the workplace.
The only law he resorted to violence against was the law that would finally make Captain America responsible for his actions as Captain America.
Yeah, it's not like they attack him for not going with the law before it even was a law or anything.
though he did hire a psychopath to take potshots at innocent atlanteans in an attempt to instigate a war
A war with the most powerful and largest and most technologically advanced nation on earth. Where every man, woman and child has the strength of at least fifty men.
Also, the king of this country used to beat up the Hulk.
Absolutely nothing at all could go wrong! Everybody in America would be united against Atlantis, after all!
That way they can all get massacred together in one fell swoop as opposed to dying one by one in a long, drawn-out war with no hope of victory whatsoever. No, Tony's way is much more cozy.
Absolutely nothing at all could go wrong! Everybody in America would be united against Atlantis, after all!
That way they can all get massacred together in one fell swoop as opposed to dying one by one in a long, drawn-out war with no hope of victory whatsoever. No, Tony's way is much more cozy.
And don't forget the US is currently in a Cold War with the Inhumans, led by that fella who can knock Hulk out with a word and go toe to toe with the Silver goddamn Surfer.
Absolutely nothing at all could go wrong! Everybody in America would be united against Atlantis, after all!
That way they can all get massacred together in one fell swoop as opposed to dying one by one in a long, drawn-out war with no hope of victory whatsoever. No, Tony's way is much more cozy.
Think about it. You're about to die. Do you want the last thing you see to be Tigra's ass, or some fat guy trying to run away from the Atlantean army?
Absolutely nothing at all could go wrong! Everybody in America would be united against Atlantis, after all!
That way they can all get massacred together in one fell swoop as opposed to dying one by one in a long, drawn-out war with no hope of victory whatsoever. No, Tony's way is much more cozy.
And don't forget the US is currently in a Cold War with the Inhumans, led by that fella who can knock Hulk out with a word and go toe to toe with the Silver goddamn Surfer.
It's the perfect time to start a new war.
Less of a cold war and more of a all-out war now, actually. Although Sentry might have put a stop to it by pointing out that if he and Black Bolt went toe to toe they would probably destroy Earth and several surrounding planets.
Absolutely nothing at all could go wrong! Everybody in America would be united against Atlantis, after all!
That way they can all get massacred together in one fell swoop as opposed to dying one by one in a long, drawn-out war with no hope of victory whatsoever. No, Tony's way is much more cozy.
And don't forget the US is currently in a Cold War with the Inhumans, led by that fella who can knock Hulk out with a word and go toe to toe with the Silver goddamn Surfer.
It's the perfect time to start a new war.
Less of a cold war and more of a all-out war now, actually. Although Sentry might have put a stop to it by pointing out that if he and Black Bolt went toe to toe they would probably destroy Earth and several surrounding planets.
Eh, I got to go with Black Bolt in that one, as as powerful as Bob is he has the mental fortitude and willpower of a 6 month old kitten.
Really, Bob doesn't have to throw a punch. Just hold Black Bolts mouth shut and fly off. I mean, unless Black Bolt can HUM destructively, Bob is pretty much all set with the strength to hold his mouth shut.
The Muffin Man on
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NogsCrap, crap, mega crap.Crap, crap, mega crap.Registered Userregular
edited March 2007
well...the letter M is just humming the letter N. I don't think it would be to far off to say black bolt could hum the world bye-bye. Man..lets hope he never takes a good shower.
Really, Bob doesn't have to throw a punch. Just hold Black Bolts mouth shut and fly off. I mean, unless Black Bolt can HUM destructively, Bob is pretty much all set with the strength to hold his mouth shut.
His humming would actually do ridiculous damage.
Fuck, the last time he screamed he tore a hole in space and time.
The only law he resorted to violence against was the law that would finally make Captain America responsible for his actions as Captain America.
hardly. he's a registered shield agent and has been ever since he got unfrozen and joined the avengers, and was a soldier in the US army before that.
cap, more than any other hero in the marvel universe has always been responsible for his actions
A good point to think about. Given that I'm not 100% on Hill's giving the cape-killers the order to fire, I'll get back to you on it. The point, however, is still true for every single other anti-reg hero in Rogers' army.
While I consider that, I'd like to hear your point as to why Rogers never resorted to violence to protect anyone else's rights like this in the face of a slow justice system? Why was it okay for Rogers to use force to short-cut the justice system here (given that we've established he would have had access to the courts, even in 42) when it wouldn't be okay for a normal criminal in the same situation to do so? Why did Rogers only use force to short-cut the justice system here when he hasn't used it for any of those other criminals?
Really, Bob doesn't have to throw a punch. Just hold Black Bolts mouth shut and fly off. I mean, unless Black Bolt can HUM destructively, Bob is pretty much all set with the strength to hold his mouth shut.
His humming would actually do ridiculous damage.
Fuck, the last time he screamed he tore a hole in space and time.
It really is hard to figure out why that's cool but Superboy-Prime punching reality is lame...
That said, I fully believe that Black Bolt's tearing space/time a new one was cool, and that Superboy-Prime punching reality was lame.
The only law he resorted to violence against was the law that would finally make Captain America responsible for his actions as Captain America.
hardly. he's a registered shield agent and has been ever since he got unfrozen and joined the avengers, and was a soldier in the US army before that.
cap, more than any other hero in the marvel universe has always been responsible for his actions
A good point to think about. Given that I'm not 100% on Hill's giving the cape-killers the order to fire, I'll get back to you on it. The point, however, is still true for every single other anti-reg hero in Rogers' army.
While I consider that, I'd like to hear your point as to why Rogers never resorted to violence to protect anyone else's rights like this in the face of a slow justice system? Why was it okay for Rogers to use force to short-cut the justice system here (given that we've established he would have had access to the courts, even in 42) when it wouldn't be okay for a normal criminal in the same situation to do so? Why did Rogers only use force to short-cut the justice system here when he hasn't used it for any of those other criminals?
Because he hasn't encountered any other instances where the justice system forces everyone who has superpowers regardless of their intent to use them or not to join a military force and go beat the shit out of their friends that don't want to join up.
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because i got nothin against no viet cong! no vietnamese ever called me a nigger!
Just so you know, this is the absolute worst counter to any argument in history. "I'd like to see you do better" implies that someone can't have any opinion on anything unless they are professionals. That's dumb. And ridiculous.
(a) People can file petitions for a writ of Habeas Corpus on your behalf, as is the case with the Gitmo prisoners in the real world. Even if Rogers were being held in 42, somene could have filed on his behalf if they had an appropriate relationship.
(b) Editorial statements have indicated and confirmed that only villains were to be stored in 42 permanently. The indications are that the heroes there temporarily were only there because of Rogers' ongoing insurrection which (obviously) would have tried to rescue them to get reinforcements.
You're correct, if I were using it to refute his argument. I'd refuted his argument earlier, and was now just responding to his comment about writing. I've agreed that there are writing problems with the series, but here I was calling the person out on being pointlessly obscene.
Vulgarity has its place, and can be fun. Hell (!), it can be plain funny (I love Family Guy and South Park as much as anyone. That said, when it's used for no reason - such as calling the writing in CW dogshit - it just becomes stupid and pointless.
What constitutes an appropriate relationship?
At the same time, were the Secret Avengers privy to the editorial statements made by the story's creators or, at least, the information available within them? If not, then how could they be expected to act with that information in mind?
to be fair though, the writing was fuckass dickdrip shitsplatter
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That, actually, is a fair point. At the time of the Vietnam War - when the draft was in full force - blacks were still being openly discriminated against in a severe fashion. The argument then was that if the USA wasn't going to afford full rights to the black citizens, then why should those black citizens be forced to register for the draft, much less to serve?
I believe I've summarized your point, right?
The answer is simple: this isn't an appropriate draft. Unlike 1960s-70s era blacks, superheroes aren't discriminated against unconstitutionally. Equal Protection demands that blacks be treated like all other races (here, it assumes the existence of race) because there is no meaningful difference between the races as far as rights are concerned. I've explained this before.
On the other hand, the SHRA targets superheroes (or rather, superpowered individuals) because they are the only means available to counter the superpowered criminals. As I've explained time and time again, ALL civil rights may be infringed, if that infringement survives strict scrutiny. Strict scrutiny only requires a "compelling state interest" (here, fighting the supercriminals) and the chosen means to be "the least restrictive means possible" (here, registering the only superpowered people available, and if they want to help, forcing them to be trained).
As I explained earlier this afternoon, this is actually WAY better than the real American draft, in that you never serve unless you want to. You can register, and go sit at home and waste your powers. Or, you can get trained and - if you want - become a SHIELD employee. If you choose to enlist, that's your call, but it's got responsibilities attached (just like in the real world).
There needs to be a "valid reason" (explained in a moment) for a "next friend" to petition for the writ of habeas. If so, then that friend can proceed. (Figueroa v. Rivera, 147 F.3d 77 (1st Cir. 1998).
One example of a valid reason is incompetance (in the legal sense), where his or her guardian ad litem acquires standing to file the petition (Harris By and Through Ramseyer v. Wood, 64 F.3d 1432 (9th Cir. 1995)). In such a situation, you have to show meaningful evidence for the prisoner having mental disease, disorder, or defect that "substantially affects his or her capacity" for rational decision-making. (Minerva v. Singeltary, 4 F.3d 938 (11th Cir. 1993), cert. dismissed 509 U.S. 944 (1993)).
Recently, in the much publicized Padilla v. Rumsfeld case, the Supreme Court affirmed that counsel for a prisoner being held incommunicado as an "enemy combatant" (as Rogers et al. would have been held in 42) had sufficient standing due to their relationship.
Basically, all Rogers had to do was make a call to ACLU or some other Civil Rights group, take them on as his counsel, and they could take it from there. Even if you assume he was right to flee the Cape Killer units that 'attacked' him initially, this means the next step was to seek counsel not to launch an armed rebellion.
See, here's the thing: none of them looked into it.
As the story shows, all of them made their decision to go with Rogers (as Rogers himself did) without reading the SHRA. They never made inquiries into details, nor into the legal validity of the SHRA.
now i don't think i believe that
you'll have to prove that one to me
here's the way i see it- maria hill had her shield goons draw down on cap, who, being cap, kicked their asses while running away. now, i don't think it's unreasonable to assume that, say, cloak and dagger didn't read the entire act and just joined up with cap because he's captain friggin america and who wouldn't, but you'll have to cite the panel and issue where the man (who memorizes pages and pages of mark twain such is his love for the country he represents) himself didn't read the act that would have this big an impact on him and his world before it got to the point of him surfing an f-14 down to kansas
See, if it was to fight some big menace that was threatening the planet, and SHIELD needed everyone together, then the draft would have a decent purpose.
Thing is, that kind of stuff has happen quite a few times before, and the heroes banded together all on their own with no need for Capekillers and mind-destroying prisons. So the only reason I can see for Adolph Stark and the Iron Youth to force people to register is so that they can have an army of heroes under their thumb.
I mean hell, look what Stark told Jessica Jones, and she wasn't even a hero anymore.
Fair question. I'm on break (ah, sun!) so I don't have issues in front of me so forgive a bit of imprecision, please. In fact, I may have mispoken there: we know empirically he didn't understand SHRA since he was so wrong about its legality and constitutionality. He may have read it - in fact, if you're right that he memorizes Mark Twain (I'm not familiar with that, but it sounds plausible so I'll take it on your word) - then it seems likely. The problem (as I described earlier today) is that he was ill-equipped to understand it apparently.
Law can be hard to analyze, that's why we have three years of training in how to read laws, how to analyze cases, and how to make predictions about legal interpretations by judges. Rogers may be brilliant, but that doesn't make him a laywer.
Assume for the moment that Hill was utterly wrong to have the cape killers draw a bead on Rogers (she actually might have had a justification, but let's leave that issue aside). Rogers busts out dramatically (like CW or hate it, that was an awesome sequence). He goes straight underground, never contacting any lawyers (since, if he had, they would have said "fists never change laws"). I don't have the issue in front of me, so I can't remember the exact dialogue, but nothing in it even suggested that Rogers had read the SHRA. You may be right, and he may have read it. That doesn't change the fact that the conclusion he reached - that SHRA was illegal and/or unconstitutional - is unreasonable from a legal perspective.
I'll stick with my earlier medical analogy: it's as if nurse told him "A doctor tells me that you've got appendicitis, and we'll need to remove it." Rogers then, without medical training, reads his chart and says "I know better than doctors about my body - I'm Captain America!" and refuses to submit to surgery. In fact, he starts going around and convincing people who have appendicitis not to get surgery. They even start actively fighting with the doctors who are trying to perform appendectomies.
No doubt, they have good intentions. That doesn't mean they're right. They're ill-trained and/or ill-educated regarding medical analyses, and they came to the wrong conclusion. If only they'd been registered with the government and then trained by SHIELD, maybe they wouldn't have caused several dozen innocent civilians to die when their appendixes burst.
Remember that in the Marvel Universe, Parker only got his powers around fifteen years ago. That sets a maximum timeframe for everything that's happened in the past.
Marvel Americans have seen the sudden appearance in the span of a quarter-generation of countless supervillains. They've seen people suddenly destroying cars, buildings, etc. while trying to save lives. They've started to have to dive into subways to avoid becoming collateral damage.
What's the threat? The threat is the sudden swarm of supervillains that are always around. Even if we assume only the events we see in comics occur - that there are no "off screen" fights - that means dozens of fights a month. It's a constant occurence.
Hell, a short while ago, Thor moved the entire island of Asgard to float over NYC and caused all sorts of problems.
Not to mention things like Maximum Carnage where a ton of murders were perpetuated by a creature that is - let's face it - entirely Spider-Man's fault (if he'd been better about containing the symbiote, we'd never have Venom much less Carnage). It's trite, but how many times has the Green Goblin gotten out of jail and killed more people? (yeah, this is part of why it's stupid that Stark hired Osborne as part of the Thunderbolts).
If you need to resort to calling Stark a Hitler, you're not prepared to debate. Ad hominem attacks are pointless: all they do is reveal your inability to consider the alternative.
The heroes banding together do not fix all the problems: they keep capturing these villians, but the villains never stay in jail. More supervillains keep appearing. It's a compelling state interest to find a better way to stop these people. The existing method - of random vigilantes - isn't working at all. At best, it's a stable equillibrium. At worst, it's getting worse and worse.
With Decimation eliminating most mutants, it was the perfect opportunity for the government to try and solve the problem proactively.
i both agree and disagree
it can and is difficult to understand the wording of the law (any law), i fully grant you that. my dad's a lawyer, and i have to ask him to help me through legal wording all the time. however, i think what mattered in terms of the story is that steve knew the intentions of the act, and when he was informed by maria hill that he would be obligated under it to hunt down his friends and possibly hurt them quite badly, he couldn't in good conscience reconcile those actions with his feelings. what maria hill tried to make him do told him everything about the way the act was going to be enforced that he wanted to know. it is, i think, not even about the legal document itself, but the actions of the people who were going to enforce it. (his actions, i mean)
and i have to say that the medical analogy seems like something of a false one, in that it was be more like the nurse telling him 'here is a list of all the people who need appendectomies today go get 'em cap' and cap felt that it was those people's right to choose whether or not they want treatment, so he crashed an f-14 into the ground again.
and the mark twait stuff was in a civil war tie-in (asm, i think) actually. i'm going to find the scans now because it's an awesome scene
Yes they do. Captain America's fists do. He's magic, didn't you know?
And aside from SHIELD reacting semi-violently to someone under their command going rogue, he knew, what, none of that?
there's some contextual stuff here but basically spidey has just come to cap after defecting from tony's side and he asks cap how he can do this with the whole country against him and cap's response is
but then he got tackled by a firefighter and well
anyway, i just like that scene
Actually, I'm quoting Warren Ellis, as I think Adolph Stark and the Iron Youth is funny.
Someone asked him about Nextwave appearing in Thunderbolts.
So, Captain America is really Superboy-Prime?! It all makes sense!
Agreed, it's a great scene. Twain was right, that you must stand up for your morals.
The problem is that Rogers misread what "no, you move" meant. It meant what MLK, Jr. thought it meant: you change the system.
Rogers picked a technique that, if he had thought about it for an instant, he should have immediately realized would be futile. He couldn't have honestly believed that - after watching his rebels cause all this damage - people would come about to his side. He picked a method of Standing Up that would never accomplish his goal.
The method that would have accomplished his goal - and here, we're beating a dead horse - was to proceed through the legal system.
The beauty of America is that everyone is able to stand in front of Lady Justice and plead his case. Every American can fight the laws of our land, because every American can challenge them.
Rogers believed himself to be above that legal process. He believed that he was the one who got to decide what was right and what was wrong, and that he didn't need to fix the problems the same way a normal American would.
I mentioned it before: what would Rogers have said to a young man in prison - in jail for violating a law that the young man believed to be immoral, e.g. pot possession - who didn't want to wait out the judicial process? Would Rogers have broken him out of jail, and helped him to find a military group that would battle for the elimination of laws that prohibit possession of pot?
Rogers only cares about this law because it's him. He doesn't support the violate rebellion against any other laws. He's not breaking blacks out of jail because they're not treated equally under the law. He's not beating up CFOs because women are paid less in the workplace.
The only law he resorted to violence against was the law that would finally make Captain America responsible for his actions as Captain America.
No one is denying that everything that happens in fiction is a function of the writers'/editors' whims.
Warren Ellis is a great artist (I love Transmetropolitan). That doesn't mean he's above the rhetorical rule that calling people Hitler is an attempt to end the debate through appeal to emotion.
Stark never ordered the genocide of entire races.
Stark never got 20 million russians killed.
Stark never had a gestapo that had lampshades made from human skin.
It is disgusting to compare anyone who is just a bad guy to Hitler. It denigrates the memory of WWII and its victims, especially those in the Holocaust. It denigrates the horrible destruction that man reaped upon the world.
hardly. he's a registered shield agent and has been ever since he got unfrozen and joined the avengers, and was a soldier in the US army before that.
cap, more than any other hero in the marvel universe has always been responsible for his actions
though he did hire a psychopath to take potshots at innocent atlanteans in an attempt to instigate a war
A war with the most powerful and largest and most technologically advanced nation on earth. Where every man, woman and child has the strength of at least fifty men.
Also, the king of this country used to beat up the Hulk.
That way they can all get massacred together in one fell swoop as opposed to dying one by one in a long, drawn-out war with no hope of victory whatsoever. No, Tony's way is much more cozy.
It's the perfect time to start a new war.
Think about it. You're about to die. Do you want the last thing you see to be Tigra's ass, or some fat guy trying to run away from the Atlantean army?
Less of a cold war and more of a all-out war now, actually. Although Sentry might have put a stop to it by pointing out that if he and Black Bolt went toe to toe they would probably destroy Earth and several surrounding planets.
PARKER, YOU'RE FIRED! <-- My comic book podcast! Satan look here!
Black Bolt must be boring in bed.
"SAY MY NA-...whoops."
His humming would actually do ridiculous damage.
Fuck, the last time he screamed he tore a hole in space and time.
A good point to think about. Given that I'm not 100% on Hill's giving the cape-killers the order to fire, I'll get back to you on it. The point, however, is still true for every single other anti-reg hero in Rogers' army.
While I consider that, I'd like to hear your point as to why Rogers never resorted to violence to protect anyone else's rights like this in the face of a slow justice system? Why was it okay for Rogers to use force to short-cut the justice system here (given that we've established he would have had access to the courts, even in 42) when it wouldn't be okay for a normal criminal in the same situation to do so? Why did Rogers only use force to short-cut the justice system here when he hasn't used it for any of those other criminals?
It really is hard to figure out why that's cool but Superboy-Prime punching reality is lame...
That said, I fully believe that Black Bolt's tearing space/time a new one was cool, and that Superboy-Prime punching reality was lame.
Because he hasn't encountered any other instances where the justice system forces everyone who has superpowers regardless of their intent to use them or not to join a military force and go beat the shit out of their friends that don't want to join up.
Also probably because they fucking shot at him.