Official Civil War Thread Version 3.0

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  • übergeekübergeek Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    SHIELD doesn't know who everyone is. All that data is gone, because when Fury saw what was happening he took that info with him. Most of the info was his anyway, and he was smart enough to not leave that behind.

    Plus the Anti argument I put forth in the last thread was that the way they instituted the law was more or less slavery at the very least for mutants and indentured servitude for people who got their powers by accident or had no powers and just very skilled in something. Those people who never had any aspirations for heroism and just wanted to be left to a normal life no longer had the right to say no. That was the general gist of the long post I made.

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  • grendel824_grendel824_ Registered User
    edited June 2007
    Plus the Anti argument I put forth in the last thread was that the way they instituted the law was more or less slavery at the very least for mutants and indentured servitude for people who got their powers by accident or had no powers and just very skilled in something. Those people who never had any aspirations for heroism and just wanted to be left to a normal life no longer had the right to say no. That was the general gist of the long post I made.


    Thanks for restating that, but that's already been covered, I think. Your argument seems to be a misconception about the Registration Act - in fact, one of the main reasons Stark initiated it was to STOP something like what you're saying from happening - instead of going after anyone with powers, they just go after those who use their powers (or just a costumed identity without powers) to illegally fight crime. Which made their going after Luke Cage pretty suspicious (see my theory about somebody doing things to shake things up). If you have powers, but you just want to live your life normally, you're not required to register. You just can't become a vigilante without the law coming after you and offering you the option of either hanging up your costume and living a normal life or registering so you get training, a pension, and are accountable to the citizens of the U.S. for your actions. So, yeah, so far, no convincing anti-reg arguments that actually address the real act. Hmm.

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  • HooraydiationHooraydiation Registered User
    edited June 2007
    People keep bringing up the fact that Cloud 9 and people like her are being forced into armed services over in the Initiative, and the point just keeps getting ignored.

    And yeah, it's pretty clear that you don't need to be caught in the act of fighting crime to have the SHRA come down on you. The mere suggestion of breaking the terms of the act is taken as a surrender of all your rights as an American citizen, and truth be told you can be as good as dead after that happens if the wrong people happen to come after you as a result.

    I shouldn't need to clarify this, but that's wrong.

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  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited June 2007
    If you have powers, but you just want to live your life normally, you're not required to register. You just can't become a vigilante without the law coming after you and offering you the option of either hanging up your costume and living a normal life or registering so you get training, a pension, and are accountable to the citizens of the U.S. for your actions. So, yeah, so far, no convincing anti-reg arguments that actually address the real act. Hmm.

    I'm curious to know where you're getting your version of 'the real act' from. Marvel haven't laid the exact workings of the SHRA out clearly for everyone to see, and different writers appear to have different takes on it. I don't remember seeing any 'register or quit being a hero' choices being offered to anyone. It was 'register or be imprisoned' followed by 'register and get training and if you fail we'll remove your powers' combined with 'register and as well as getting training that may kill you through our incompetence you're basically in the army forever'. Cloud 9 wasn't fighting crime when she was drafted into the registration program, she was just using her powers.

    So, the law appears to be not 'if you want to be a hero and fight crime, you have to register', but rather 'if you have powers and want to use them you have to register and also join our army and maybe get killed on your first day'.

    Bogart on
  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    why the hell are we still talking about this?? my god, even D&D people are not this inane to keep rehashing the same points over and over and over and over again.

    I vote that we treat SHRA threads the same way they treat religion threads in D&D... locked after they reach 10 pages, no exceptions.

    Sentry on
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    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • JCMJCM Registered User
    edited June 2007
    People keep bringing up the fact that Cloud 9 and people like her are being forced into armed services over in the Initiative, and the point just keeps getting ignored.

    And yeah, it's pretty clear that you don't need to be caught in the act of fighting crime to have the SHRA come down on you. The mere suggestion of breaking the terms of the act is taken as a surrender of all your rights as an American citizen, and truth be told you can be as good as dead after that happens if the wrong people happen to come after you as a result.

    I shouldn't need to clarify this, but that's wrong.

    Yep.

    Add cover-ups of any kid who dies during "training" to that as well.
    Forced to join, forced to train, if you die, nobody knows it.

    JCM on
  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    People keep bringing up the fact that Cloud 9 and people like her are being forced into armed services over in the Initiative, and the point just keeps getting ignored.

    And yeah, it's pretty clear that you don't need to be caught in the act of fighting crime to have the SHRA come down on you. The mere suggestion of breaking the terms of the act is taken as a surrender of all your rights as an American citizen, and truth be told you can be as good as dead after that happens if the wrong people happen to come after you as a result.

    I shouldn't need to clarify this, but that's wrong.

    I just haven't had time to spend with a long, drawn out post so here's the key point:

    <person in training at Initiative> doesn't equal <registered, trained hero>.

    A person in boot camp - and thats what the Initiative is - doesn't have the same rights and privileges as a trained individuals. We cannot extrapolate from the behavior of the people who run Initiative to the people who are in charge of calling out registered heroes for public tasks. In fact, we have no indication whatsoever that anyone is able to do so except Tony himself, since we've only seen him do so.

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  • WildcatWildcat Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Wasn't Wonder Man given duties by persons other than Stark pre-Mighty Avengers, or were they some of Tony's subordinates?

    Wildcat on
  • MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Wildcat wrote: »
    Wasn't Wonder Man given duties by persons other than Stark pre-Mighty Avengers, or were they some of Tony's subordinates?

    Wonder dude was blackmailed.

    Malkor on
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  • WildcatWildcat Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Exactly, those are the people I'm referring to.

    Wildcat on
  • MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Did we ever find out who they were, or who the dude in the CW:Runaways/Young Avengers books was working for? Was it Osbourne?

    Malkor on
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  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited June 2007
    Malkor wrote: »
    Did we ever find out who they were, or who the dude in the CW:Runaways/Young Avengers books was working for? Was it Osbourne?

    Osbourne was working (under duress) for Tony when he murdered the Atlanteans, but I think that Wonderman was working for SHIELD when he was trailing him. The scientist in CW/Runaways was working for SHIELD as well, I think,or some subsection of it, though obviously he was exceeding his orders by being crazy and trying to kill people.

    Bogart on
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited June 2007
    People keep bringing up the fact that Cloud 9 and people like her are being forced into armed services over in the Initiative, and the point just keeps getting ignored.

    And yeah, it's pretty clear that you don't need to be caught in the act of fighting crime to have the SHRA come down on you. The mere suggestion of breaking the terms of the act is taken as a surrender of all your rights as an American citizen, and truth be told you can be as good as dead after that happens if the wrong people happen to come after you as a result.

    I shouldn't need to clarify this, but that's wrong.

    I just haven't had time to spend with a long, drawn out post so here's the key point:

    <person in training at Initiative> doesn't equal <registered, trained hero>.

    A person in boot camp - and thats what the Initiative is - doesn't have the same rights and privileges as a trained individuals. We cannot extrapolate from the behavior of the people who run Initiative to the people who are in charge of calling out registered heroes for public tasks. In fact, we have no indication whatsoever that anyone is able to do so except Tony himself, since we've only seen him do so.

    The point is that one shouldn't be forced to do whatever just because they have special abilities. You especially should not be forced to learn how to kill people.

    Fencingsax on
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  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Technically they arent being forced into service in The Initiative. If they are there they have to do what they are told yes, but they are technically free to leave - they just arent allowed to use thier powers if they do.

    Cloud 9 specifically says in the first issue the only reason she is there is because she couldn't bear to give up flying. She dosen't want to be a hero.

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Balefuego wrote: »
    Technically they arent being forced into service in The Initiative. If they are there they have to do what they are told yes, but they are technically free to leave - they just arent allowed to use thier powers if they do.

    Cloud 9 specifically says in the first issue the only reason she is there is because she couldn't bear to give up flying. She dosen't want to be a hero.
    Hence, my problem with the whole thing.

    Fencingsax on
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  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    I wasnt disagreeing with you really. Just correcting a detail. I dont know what idiot thought it would be a good idea to hand training of unregistered heroes to Henry Gyrich.

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Balefuego wrote: »
    I wasnt disagreeing with you really. Just correcting a detail. I dont know what idiot thought it would be a good idea to hand training of unregistered heroes to Henry Gyrich.
    It's the unfortunate matter that I like most of the characters in the Initiative, I just hate all of the staff (except, perhaps, for Justice) and any justification involved.

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  • HooraydiationHooraydiation Registered User
    edited June 2007
    Justice is pretty pathetic so far.

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Justice is pretty pathetic so far.
    I haven't seen enough to pass judgment, but I want to see what happens when he finds out what's really going on.

    Fencingsax on
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  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Um, the Initiative is written pretty much fas an anti-registration book. We arent supposed to like the way things are being run.

    Case in point: Gyrich

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  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    I don't read Initiative, so am I right in assuming that Hank Pym is a primary source of douchebaggery at Camp Hammond, since he's one of the main people in charge? I mean, it's not like I need another reason to not like Hank or anything.

    wwtMask on
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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited June 2007
    wwtMask wrote: »
    I don't read Initiative, so am I right in assuming that Hank Pym is a primary source of douchebaggery at Camp Hammond, since he's one of the main people in charge? I mean, it's not like I need another reason to not like Hank or anything.
    Him, Gauntlet, War Machine, and Dr. Nazi.

    Fencingsax on
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  • HooraydiationHooraydiation Registered User
    edited June 2007
    Hank's been pretty cool, actually. The character's about as remorseful and guilt-ridden as anyone could possibly be for a past instance of spousal abuse, and unlike how it is with real life abusers it really was an isolated event.

    But I guess the readers can't really move on from it until Jan does, and the writers stop referencing it.

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Hank's been pretty cool, actually. The character's about as remorseful and guilt-ridden as anyone could possibly be for a past instance of spousal abuse, and unlike how it is with real life abusers it really was an isolated event.

    But I guess the readers can't really move on from it until Jan does, and the writers stop referencing it.
    I don't really give a damn about that any more, because as I recall Pym once had a psychotic break, and so Jan married him, making it just about even in the "Holy Gods, this relationship is sick" department. I care about how he treats the Initiative trainees. No one really cares about them in any significant way.

    Fencingsax on
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  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    I havent seen Hank be a dick in The Initiative really. He saved the day in issue 2.

    Balefuego on
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  • JCMJCM Registered User
    edited June 2007
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Hank's been pretty cool, actually. The character's about as remorseful and guilt-ridden as anyone could possibly be for a past instance of spousal abuse, and unlike how it is with real life abusers it really was an isolated event.

    But I guess the readers can't really move on from it until Jan does, and the writers stop referencing it.
    I don't really give a damn about that any more, because as I recall Pym once had a psychotic break, and so Jan married him, making it just about even in the "Holy Gods, this relationship is sick" department. I care about how he treats the Initiative trainees. No one really cares about them in any significant way.

    Yep.

    I still think the "this never happened" and "he never existed" after that kid died was the shittiest sickest shit to come out of civil War.

    A kid dies training, you dont cover it up and pretend that he never existed.

    BTW, to whoever said that those in the Initiative werent forced to regist and went there by free will, check out the Civil War comic where Aranã´s dad is told that she HAS to do it. ;-)

    JCM on
  • graizurgraizur __BANNED USERS
    edited June 2007
    So what are the pro reg people saying on the forums now? That is a good idea in theory but that Marvel is screwing it up?

    graizur on
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    Finally, an Apocalyptian-American superhero. I've been waiting so long.
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    JCM wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Hank's been pretty cool, actually. The character's about as remorseful and guilt-ridden as anyone could possibly be for a past instance of spousal abuse, and unlike how it is with real life abusers it really was an isolated event.

    But I guess the readers can't really move on from it until Jan does, and the writers stop referencing it.
    I don't really give a damn about that any more, because as I recall Pym once had a psychotic break, and so Jan married him, making it just about even in the "Holy Gods, this relationship is sick" department. I care about how he treats the Initiative trainees. No one really cares about them in any significant way.

    Yep.

    I still think the "this never happened" and "he never existed" after that kid died was the shittiest sickest shit to come out of civil War.

    A kid dies training, you dont cover it up and pretend that he never existed.

    BTW, to whoever said that those in the Initiative werent forced to regist and went there by free will, check out the Civil War comic where Aranã´s dad is told that she HAS to do it. ;-)

    To be fair, she was a superhuman vigilante. I'm not totally opposed to the registration of people who want to be vigilantes.

    wwtMask on
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  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    wwtMask wrote: »
    JCM wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Hank's been pretty cool, actually. The character's about as remorseful and guilt-ridden as anyone could possibly be for a past instance of spousal abuse, and unlike how it is with real life abusers it really was an isolated event.

    But I guess the readers can't really move on from it until Jan does, and the writers stop referencing it.
    I don't really give a damn about that any more, because as I recall Pym once had a psychotic break, and so Jan married him, making it just about even in the "Holy Gods, this relationship is sick" department. I care about how he treats the Initiative trainees. No one really cares about them in any significant way.

    Yep.

    I still think the "this never happened" and "he never existed" after that kid died was the shittiest sickest shit to come out of civil War.

    A kid dies training, you dont cover it up and pretend that he never existed.

    BTW, to whoever said that those in the Initiative werent forced to regist and went there by free will, check out the Civil War comic where Aranã´s dad is told that she HAS to do it. ;-)

    To be fair, she was a superhuman vigilante. I'm not totally opposed to the registration of people who want to be vigilantes.

    Yes, if you want to be a practicing hero or activley use your powers in anyway.. then you have to do it. If you agree to never use your powers then simply registering is enough.

    Balefuego on
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  • HooraydiationHooraydiation Registered User
    edited June 2007
    There's a huge jump between using your powers to fight crime and actively using your powers in any way, especially when certain superhumans depend on their powers or possess powers that are simply always on.

    And it's ridiculous that other possible uses for superhuman abilities aren't being considered. God knows Cloud 9 is better suited for rescue operations.

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  • natxcrossnatxcross Registered User
    edited July 2007
    wwtMask wrote: »
    JCM wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Hank's been pretty cool, actually. The character's about as remorseful and guilt-ridden as anyone could possibly be for a past instance of spousal abuse, and unlike how it is with real life abusers it really was an isolated event.

    But I guess the readers can't really move on from it until Jan does, and the writers stop referencing it.
    I don't really give a damn about that any more, because as I recall Pym once had a psychotic break, and so Jan married him, making it just about even in the "Holy Gods, this relationship is sick" department. I care about how he treats the Initiative trainees. No one really cares about them in any significant way.

    Yep.

    I still think the "this never happened" and "he never existed" after that kid died was the shittiest sickest shit to come out of civil War.

    A kid dies training, you dont cover it up and pretend that he never existed.

    BTW, to whoever said that those in the Initiative werent forced to regist and went there by free will, check out the Civil War comic where Aranã´s dad is told that she HAS to do it. ;-)

    To be fair, she was a superhuman vigilante. I'm not totally opposed to the registration of people who want to be vigilantes.

    If I remember correctly she didn't actually do anything at all. She spent so long psyching herself up that it was all over when she revealed herself.

    natxcross on
  • grendel824_grendel824_ Registered User
    edited July 2007
    I'm curious to know where you're getting your version of 'the real act' from. Marvel haven't laid the exact workings of the SHRA out clearly for everyone to see, and different writers appear to have different takes on it.

    Yeah, that's one of the problems (or "easy outs" if you're a writer). I mostly refer to whatever is mentioned in the core Civil War series, anything directly quoted by the actual people behind the act (Stark & Richards, mostly), and stuff gleaned from Mark Millar actually talking about it behind teh scenes.
    I don't remember seeing any 'register or quit being a hero' choices being offered to anyone.

    I do.
    It was 'register or be imprisoned' followed by 'register and get training and if you fail we'll remove your powers' combined with 'register and as well as getting training that may kill you through our incompetence you're basically in the army forever'. Cloud 9 wasn't fighting crime when she was drafted into the registration program, she was just using her powers.

    So, the law appears to be not 'if you want to be a hero and fight crime, you have to register', but rather 'if you have powers and want to use them you have to register and also join our army and maybe get killed on your first day'.

    Yeah, I haven't gotten around to the Initiative stuff yet, so it looks like the original act still gets altered to what Stark was trying to prevent (I recall him directly saying that it was meant to prevent stronger measures, like going after people for just having powers), or it's being enforced wrongly/incompetently (like when Cap was attacked, or Cage was attacked at midnight, despite the fact that he could've just remained a civilian, or the fact that he WAS technically registered as an Avenger, as I recall his clearances being mentioned before). In the end, the actual law is being altered, either by writers trying to cover themselves or by characters behind the scenes in the books to make sure it's whatever it takes to get heroes to fight over it

    "What's that? Cap is ALREADY a registered federal employee, and is probably going to help us any way he can because he's got common sense and knows we're right and has given speeches to characters that are exactly what the Registration Act is about? Well, let's put him on the spot and open fire the moment he expresses any momentary doubt about worst-case-scenarios we're springing on him!"

    That's either really lazy writing or really clever writing. I'm hoping for the latter, because I can't be the only one who can see some major disparity between what's supposed to be happening and how it's being approached in the Marvel U.

    grendel824_ on
  • grendel824_grendel824_ Registered User
    edited July 2007
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    public tasks. In fact, we have no indication whatsoever that anyone is able to do so except Tony himself, since we've only seen him do so. The point is that one shouldn't be forced to do whatever just because they have special abilities. You especially should not be forced to learn how to kill people.


    The point is that's not true (except for the latter part, of course). If you want to run at super-speed, you have to be cleared to do so in a manner that doesn't leave other people's body parts in your wake. If you want to fly past a certain height or speed, you have to be cleared by the FAA, so that again you don't cause the deaths of hundreds by not paying attention. You need a license to drive a car or to fire a gun, you need a license to be cleared to use your fists on another human being for sport or anything other than immediate self-defense. If you want to blow things up, whether for sculputure or archaeology or whatever, you need a permit. Characters are basically being asked to follow the laws for once, because the consequences of ignoring them finally became clear.

    Heck, even without super-abilities, it's a matter of the law and common sense. Olympic atheletes are NOT allowed to just jump and flip over pedestrians in the street - that's a public nuisance/danger. So in the Marvel U, it even makes sense to clear power use to some extent - it's all well and good if you only want to use your heat vision power to open bottles for yourself, but you'd better be sure that you're not emitting radiation that is giving everyone around you cancer.

    grendel824_ on
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    public tasks. In fact, we have no indication whatsoever that anyone is able to do so except Tony himself, since we've only seen him do so. The point is that one shouldn't be forced to do whatever just because they have special abilities. You especially should not be forced to learn how to kill people.
    Heck, even without super-abilities, it's a matter of the law and common sense. Olympic atheletes are NOT allowed to just jump and flip over pedestrians in the street - that's a public nuisance/danger. So in the Marvel U, it even makes sense to clear power use to some extent - it's all well and good if you only want to use your heat vision power to open bottles for yourself, but you'd better be sure that you're not emitting radiation that is giving everyone around you cancer.
    And I don't think that's true. While to some extent powers like flying and such should be regulated, it should be a civilian task. (eg. FAA for flying). It shouldn't just be "You're in the Army now!" Also, keep in mind that these guys are just kids. They don't deserve to be treated this way at all.

    Fencingsax on
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  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    public tasks. In fact, we have no indication whatsoever that anyone is able to do so except Tony himself, since we've only seen him do so. The point is that one shouldn't be forced to do whatever just because they have special abilities. You especially should not be forced to learn how to kill people.


    The point is that's not true (except for the latter part, of course). If you want to run at super-speed, you have to be cleared to do so in a manner that doesn't leave other people's body parts in your wake. If you want to fly past a certain height or speed, you have to be cleared by the FAA, so that again you don't cause the deaths of hundreds by not paying attention. You need a license to drive a car or to fire a gun, you need a license to be cleared to use your fists on another human being for sport or anything other than immediate self-defense. If you want to blow things up, whether for sculputure or archaeology or whatever, you need a permit. Characters are basically being asked to follow the laws for once, because the consequences of ignoring them finally became clear.

    Heck, even without super-abilities, it's a matter of the law and common sense. Olympic atheletes are NOT allowed to just jump and flip over pedestrians in the street - that's a public nuisance/danger. So in the Marvel U, it even makes sense to clear power use to some extent - it's all well and good if you only want to use your heat vision power to open bottles for yourself, but you'd better be sure that you're not emitting radiation that is giving everyone around you cancer.

    People are forgetting something very important. The Marvel Universe is not Real Life. It is a Comic Book.

    DouglasDanger on
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  • redgiementalredgiemental Registered User
    edited July 2007
    Hey guys,

    I've been on a hiatus from reading comic books for a few years. I'd like to read Civil war from the start. Has any of it been collected into a paper page/graphic novel yet? I have the house of M in that format. I;d perfer to do that than having to track down each individual issue partiuclarly of such as over arching storyline.

    Anything else I should know before I start trying to piece it together?

    Im rtying to avoid spoilers so i haven't really read any of the previous posts but I didn't think this warranted a new topic so I thought i'd post here

    Thanks for any help in advance.

    redgiemental on
  • IrohIroh Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    This should take care of it for you. This trade only collects the main book, but there are others that collect the tie-in titles like Front Line or Amazing Spider-Man. Amazon should have them all, and they are generally much cheaper than at a book store.

    Iroh on
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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited July 2007
    natxcross wrote: »
    wwtMask wrote: »
    JCM wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Hank's been pretty cool, actually. The character's about as remorseful and guilt-ridden as anyone could possibly be for a past instance of spousal abuse, and unlike how it is with real life abusers it really was an isolated event.

    But I guess the readers can't really move on from it until Jan does, and the writers stop referencing it.
    I don't really give a damn about that any more, because as I recall Pym once had a psychotic break, and so Jan married him, making it just about even in the "Holy Gods, this relationship is sick" department. I care about how he treats the Initiative trainees. No one really cares about them in any significant way.

    Yep.

    I still think the "this never happened" and "he never existed" after that kid died was the shittiest sickest shit to come out of civil War.

    A kid dies training, you dont cover it up and pretend that he never existed.

    BTW, to whoever said that those in the Initiative werent forced to regist and went there by free will, check out the Civil War comic where Aranã´s dad is told that she HAS to do it. ;-)

    To be fair, she was a superhuman vigilante. I'm not totally opposed to the registration of people who want to be vigilantes.

    If I remember correctly she didn't actually do anything at all. She spent so long psyching herself up that it was all over when she revealed herself.

    Actually, she one-shotted Ultimo

    Fencingsax on
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  • redgiementalredgiemental Registered User
    edited July 2007
    Thank you so much Iroh. I'll order them right away :D. I'll come back and tell you guys what I think.

    Its great to be excited about comics again.

    Kudos on the speed of your reply also Iroh.

    Thank you again I appreciate it very much.

    redgiemental on
  • IrohIroh Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Thank you so much Iroh. I'll order them right away :D. I'll come back and tell you guys what I think.

    Its great to be excited about comics again.

    Kudos on the speed of your reply also Iroh.

    Thank you again I appreciate it very much.

    This is definitely the place for you. I went through the same thing about a year ago, and now I'm hooked more than I ever was when I was younger thanks to the guys here.

    Iroh on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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