They can afford to own computers and have internet access, but still can't afford to buy Mother a new, more stylish shower curtain to make a dress & hat out of?
my favourite was the one with Tuffy
that and the one where they taught you how to make all sorts of sick paper airplanes
oh oh oh and the one where they all got hooked on junk food
Yes, this. Food drawn in kids' books always looked so good to me.
Also when did they get a third kid? What the heck is its name? They sorta named themselves into a corner with the first two.
edit: beat. Also I remember a very early one (maybe the first one) where it's all about the dad and son going out to chop down a tree and build a new bed, because it's revealed that the mom is having a new baby soon. The son's name at the time was "Small Bear," IIRC.
"Guess what, you've got a baby sister! Also, we changed your name."
I was allowed a total of zero hours of video games or television on school nights as a child. The internet didn't enter our home until I was 11 and it was allowed for school-related use only.
The rule was you had to do something "productive" which meant reading or going outside.
I read a lot of books as a child. It wasn't so bad.
Of course every weekend all I wanted to do was watch TV and play videogames because it was the only time I was allowed.
I can't take this comic seriously because in the book Gabe is reading, it's Papa Bear who appears to be making the (ostensibly) wise, responsible parental decision...and in all of the Bearenstein Bears books I had the dubious privilege of being exposed to as a child, Papa Bear was a typical "moronic dad" stock character and it was always up to Mama Bear to correct and clean up after his bumbling.
I can't take this comic seriously because in the book Gabe is reading, it's Papa Bear who appears to be making the (ostensibly) wise, responsible parental decision...and in all of the Bearenstein Bears books I had the dubious privilege of being exposed to as a child, Papa Bear was a typical "moronic dad" stock character and it was always up to Mama Bear to correct and clean up after his bumbling.
That's probably Papa Bear making a vow after Mama Bear set him straight. I collected these books as a kid, and recall Papa Bear making promises like that.
While I still like the series, it's kinda weird to see it still kicking. Especially the religious ones...
EDIT: I also called them the BEARenstain Bears for goddamn ever.
I can't take this comic seriously because in the book Gabe is reading, it's Papa Bear who appears to be making the (ostensibly) wise, responsible parental decision...and in all of the Bearenstein Bears books I had the dubious privilege of being exposed to as a child, Papa Bear was a typical "moronic dad" stock character and it was always up to Mama Bear to correct and clean up after his bumbling.
Limiting internet use to one hour per day is probably the moronic dad foolish but well-meaning thing Papa does in the book. The kids will get in arguments because of it. I'll bet Mama Bear swoops in at the end with other activities that bring them all back together. Like some bullshit about how they're missing out the annual Berenstain Family Underwater Basket-Weave Jamboree.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
I work in a library and I can assure you there is a LOT of material for YA that is focused on the internet. Hell, there's a whole series of books written in txtspk.
This should be a crime. I'm not joking. We already have enough people running around in this country who can't read or write for shit, and now there's people publishing books enforcing this behavior of stupidity?
My parents took away my guitars and mosh pit tickets to Pantera to ensure I would study for my finals. Boy did that ever backfire. I'm still not entirely sure what their reasoning was. I failed all my finals anyway because I'm naturally stupid. And grew up and spent all my money on guitars anyway. I guess that taught them?
Please don't tell me this is a real book. I mean, "an hour a day" was something used in the late 90s by a lot of parents because the internet was still this new thing. I can't imagine that mindset prevailing today.
if you've ever caught the cartoon, the mom is never outside of her mumu and sleeping cap. Get dressed, mom! The bully character "Billy" (?) always has wears a scowl. Even when learning a valuable lesson or being treated nicely by the Berenstein kids.
First 'computer' my family ever owned we kept in our den and it could only run paint, so I thought computers were stupid. Then we got a new one and some dial up and I got addicted to diablo when I was 6-7 years old. My screen name was some bastardization of Yuffie from FF7. The only limits to my internet time were my dad and brother who wanted to play Star Craft. Good times.
Don't try and sell me any junk.
Bother me on steam: kabbypan
Arbitrary limits seem pretty dumb. It seems like it would be more effective to say "if your grades drop, you won't be touching electronics again until SkyNet arrives".
I was meeting with a friend from highschool yesterday and I was having a hard time stopping myself from saying something to make the reunion awkward. She was telling me that she doesn't want her kids, when she has them, to play video games until they're older - like, in their teens - because she says that from her experience, the kids who DO play games (versus the ones that don't) have more imagination, creativity, and more persistence. Games create instant gratification.
I tried to argue that it depended on the game, the individual kid's personality, and the direction of the parents, but she kept interrupting me and insisted it was unhealthy and that studies show that educational games don't make as big a difference as people say.
So itt I'm learning if you limit the time your kids spend playing video games or going on the internet you're a terrible parent? :? Other than the person who mentioned his kid and the play at school that had the negative outlook on these hobbies (and I agree with him that's a bad message) do any of you actually have children who are school aged? If I didn't limit their computer time they would never do anything else. Including their homework.
because she says that from her experience, the kids who DO play games (versus the ones that don't) have more imagination, creativity, and more persistence.
I'm going to assume you reversed these, since I can't imagine why anybody would want their kids to have less imagination, creativity, and persistence.
So itt I'm learning if you limit the time your kids spend playing video games or going on the internet you're a terrible parent? :? Other than the person who mentioned his kid and the play at school that had the negative outlook on these hobbies (and I agree with him that's a bad message) do any of you actually have children who are school aged? If I didn't limit their computer time they would never do anything else. Including their homework.
"Not until you finish your homework" isn't a limit on their computer time, and seems like the more obvious choice.
"Only an hour on the internet because you won't finish your homework!"
"But I don't have any homework tonight"
"SILENCE! Only an hour!"
Doesn't make much sense.
Origin for Dragon Age: Inquisition Shenanigans: Inksplat776
So itt I'm learning if you limit the time your kids spend playing video games or going on the internet you're a terrible parent? :? Other than the person who mentioned his kid and the play at school that had the negative outlook on these hobbies (and I agree with him that's a bad message) do any of you actually have children who are school aged? If I didn't limit their computer time they would never do anything else. Including their homework.
"Not until you finish your homework" isn't a limit on their computer time, and seems like the more obvious choice.
"Only an hour on the internet because you won't finish your homework!"
"But I don't have any homework tonight"
"SILENCE! Only an hour!"
Doesn't make much sense.
Well. We do tell them homework first. But we do think, sometimes, about setting a time limit too. I mean, they have other things to do. Dinner, chores, being with their family, soccer practice, etc. And I don't want to be like the wicked stepmother, telling them that they can't go to the ball until they do this and this and this and this and oh, too bad, you didn't make it (or make them feel like their day is a nonstop misery of work and activity and they can't sit and relax until half an hour before bed, or something). There are good things about a number, arbitrary or not. A set number is harder to argue around and it's harder to stretch into a forever of "I'm almost done. I've got to finish this. I've got to get to a save point. Hold on." Not saying that that doesn't happen (or that I wouldn't allow an extra five minutes depending on the situation). But a number is a boundary and something that can be expanded when they do well or they get older or more responsible.
But the real goal in all of this is to teach them, right? It's to teach them so that when they're adults they know how to limit themselves and not spend all day on the internet instead of working or studying. Actually it kind of makes me think of a technique I saw when I was thinking about being a teacher and sat in on a high school history class. Up on the board the teacher had a list of notes that went along with his lecture. The students were to copy it down exactly and then turn it in at test time to make sure it was done. This may seem useless because they're just copying. But it's great because this is actually a first step to learning how to take notes. They're getting used to taking notes, they will have something GOOD to study from and they will get used to discerning which things are the key things to write down when they start taking their own notes in later grades. But at the beginning it just seems like (especially to the kid, I'm sure) that you're forcing them to do something stupid (which describes most of parenting actually).
The problem is all kids are different. Maybe for some kids an hour a day works best. Maybe for some it's just a schedule. Maybe some can handle it more open ended. Or maybe a mix - like, there isn't a limit to how much per day but maybe if you still have things to do you can only have fifteen minutes at that time, and then you have to go finish a chore or something before you can play again.
Also, @Ganluan it's really better to have their grades never drop in the first place. Sometimes you might not know something is wrong with a kid's grades for a month or even longer, and that's a lot of damage done. Also that sort of thing sounds like it would have to happen once to be effective so they know you're not kidding. Then, say it takes another month to see improvement. Can you, as a parent, enforce such a strict punishment for so long? It's actually hard to do because you love your kids and you don't want them unhappy even though you know you're just trying to help them and teach them. Then once you let them have computer again will they find a balance or will they just screw up again? Best to try balancing experiments throughout than set a harsh punishment on a long-term goal.
We all would agree that homework, chores, and other responsibilities take priority. Whether fun is had before or after, it will be done around the required time commitments.
Video games should be treated exactly as any other leisure activity. If you want to limit the time with it, fine, but you better limit their time doing any other individual activity – reading, playing a particular game outside, arts and crafts, etc. – the same way. Otherwise, intentional or not, you're sending the message that video games are not as valid of a way to have fun as more traditional means. Even if it is limited evenly, it still seems unfair to try and dictate how a child should enjoy themselves. Suggestion and providing enticing exciting alternatives so the child wants to do a variety of things is the way to go. Provide inspiration. It's just a matter of putting in the effort to find what will tickle their fancy.
Completely arbitrary limits, especially short ones, are counter productive. They only serve to foster resentment and rebellion from their seemingly overbearing and irrational parents. The will complain to their friends and, when they grow up, will look back and laugh at how silly those rules were, not thank you. If you're dead-set on limits, reason it out based on how much time the child has between school and bed, how long homework and chores usually take, and how long family-dinner is. Make the individual-activity limit a significant percentage of the remainder. You will then have a reason to give when asked, and you still don't have to budge. You can be the parent with respect and authority, without being the friend, and still be close to the good guy.
And, unrelated to child rearing, but still related to @mare_imbrium's post:
That "note" taking example is terrible. It's not teaching them how to take notes; it's teaching them how to copy what's written. When you look at them down the line, particularly in college, you'll see the damage. They have no idea how to take notes. Copying the board exactly, trying to transcribe the lecture word for word, sometimes getting behind and forcing the teacher to repeat portions. And these tomes end up being shit for studying; they might as well read the book itself instead. Notes are supposed to be that; summaries, key points and concepts tailored specifically to the student's personal strengths and weaknesses, to help study efficiently and provide indication of what areas to go read the full text about. If you want to teach note taking right, do what my high-school bio teacher did: assign the chapter ahead (require notes to be between a min and max length based on knowledge of the curriculum and what range good notes should be in), collect and grade (and provide feedback for) notes on a Friday, give back on Monday and let them use it as a reference during the week's lectures. This forces students to learn how to distill information to create actual notes, formulate questions and a loose foundation, and allows them to focus on what's being taught during class time instead of keeping up with writing.
because she says that from her experience, the kids who DO play games (versus the ones that don't) have more imagination, creativity, and more persistence.
I'm going to assume you reversed these, since I can't imagine why anybody would want their kids to have less imagination, creativity, and persistence.
My son was the one with the "games are bad m'kay" play and yes, we do limit his screen time. It's not an arbitrary time frame though. It's more of a - "ok you've been trying to catch em all for 2 hours Ash, time to get your ass outdoors" type of thing. Just like his bedtime is flexible to accomodate important things (such as Adventure Time premiers) his screen time depends greatly on tons of factors such as homework, the weather, or simply no screens because we want to play boards games as a family.
I'm totally in agreement that kids do need boundaries and there are times when they need to be pulled off the digital devices - I just don't think putting a set time is wise. Some parents would love their kids playing Lego or cards quiety for a few hours yet think a kid playing Minecraft or building an online Pokemon deck for the same time frame is somehow evil. The Berenstein Bears are just old fashioned crap (there's a lot of kid's books/programming that are too old for their own good but keep alive via nostalgia).
Honestly, if you have to arbitrarily limit time, rather than being able to get your kid to do something else, then I don't know what to tell you.
Kid likes playing Pokemon? Alright then, pick up a few packs of the TCG and you've got a nice activity. Kid just wants to play Lego Harry Potter? Get him some real damn legos and build stuff together. Just wants to watch tv all the time? Read to him and make it fun, or get him a kid-friendly Pen & Paper RPG.
Yes, this does require you actually be involved, but that's just a sacrifice you're going to have to make.
I just find it strange that most of the things mentioned above seem to be portrayed as solo activities. "Go outside." "Do their homework." "Do their chores."
Every one of those things could (and should) be a family activity, and could be completely kept from being something they actually dread in the first place.
Chores especially, I think, are one of the absolute stupidest things ever for young kids to have, and are total cop-outs. Because, come on, admit it--you're not doing it to teach them responsibility. You're making them do the dishes because you sure as hell don't want to do them. Because your parents made you do them, and its something you feel justified in passing on to your kids, because your parents told you it had something to do with how you turned out as a responsible adult.
Whereas, hey, there are dishes to do? Do them together. A room needs to be cleaned? Clean it together and make it fun. Chores shouldn't be chores, and there is really no reason they need to be, unless you're living on a farm or something.
The problem comes from using the games as babysitters, because eventually you are going to lose your kid. If you've got a 7 year-old playing games.. why aren't you sitting next to him, either playing co-op, or cheering him on and showing interest? Because I can bet, in a situation like that, when you want to stop and do something else, so will they--because a large part of the fun they were having will be tied to you.
Origin for Dragon Age: Inquisition Shenanigans: Inksplat776
But the real goal in all of this is to teach them, right? It's to teach them so that when they're adults they know how to limit themselves and not spend all day on the internet instead of working or studying. Actually it kind of makes me think of a technique I saw when I was thinking about being a teacher and sat in on a high school history class. Up on the board the teacher had a list of notes that went along with his lecture. The students were to copy it down exactly and then turn it in at test time to make sure it was done. This may seem useless because they're just copying. But it's great because this is actually a first step to learning how to take notes. They're getting used to taking notes, they will have something GOOD to study from and they will get used to discerning which things are the key things to write down when they start taking their own notes in later grades. But at the beginning it just seems like (especially to the kid, I'm sure) that you're forcing them to do something stupid (which describes most of parenting actually).
In a later part of your post you note that kids are different. I would suggest that 'note taking' is not a universal prerequisite for many people. I can't speak to the numbers, but I and a number of other individuals learn best by doing. We learn best by exploring - say, via the internet. The internet was a part of my life growing up. My mother attempted to set arbitrary limits many, many times. When I wasn't actively circumnavigating her (and it is so, so incredibly easy to run around a busy and distracted parent) I was simply growing to resent her. I didn't learn anything about good habits and her attempts to prevent me from pursuing my own interests simply led me to hate everything to do with what she considered to be 'productive'. Immature? Certainly. But I was a teenager. We're discussing humans that are by definition immature.
As for academic success, I managed a bare 2.5 unweighted GPA in high school and a 2.8 in college. I'm now a development lead at a Fortune 500 company. Could I have gone further with better grades? Absolutely, and my story may be a more of a testament to exceptionalism and luck than evidence of academia's failure. But I didn't choose to put in the work in school and I'm not ashamed of the work I've done to get where I am since. Academic success is fantastic, but it's just one path. If your kids aren't into it, they'll have to break their backs, but they can still make their way. If you try to force them onto the easy road they'll just end up despising you for it, even if they eventually see the good you did.
I'm not trying to say note taking is some kind of...universally essential skill you need for life. It was just an example I thought of. If you boil it down to a more basic level note taking requires the ability to take in a large piece of information and pull out the important points. That is not an "academic only" skill. Also (to the other person who didn't like my note-taking example) that sounds like a good way to learn how to take notes too. Though personally I didn't often consult notes myself, I took them because for some reason the act of taking them helped me remember. Following along with notes I already took from one source, while listening to a lecture that may not perfectly reflect the book, would probably not help me. Kids are different, but unfortunately school isn't (and can't really be) that individualized.
Those who apparently still have resentment issues about their parents limiting their game time or internet time - is the resentment because your parents were trying to dictate or limit what you could choose to do (something all parents HAVE to do to at times) or was it actually because you got the impression from them that your hobby or interest wasn't valuable or constructive? Kids ARE immature and sometimes "because I said so" is the right answer. I know when I was a kid I spent a lot of time thinking about how I would be different, and I would use logic and reasoning to tell my children why something had to be the way it was. But you know what? Kids aren't logical and they aren't reasonable, and I actually do, a lot of times, try to explain to them why that answer was no, or why we're doing one thing over the other, or why this rule is the way it is. My kids like to argue. A lot. Another thing I learned a long time ago is that nobody will ever take advice, ever, because nobody ever cares about your experience or your knowledge because no matter what it is, they are sure that they are different. Seriously, I'm sure you've all seen friends not listen to you and then go and do dumb shit. They have no reasoning for why they're not taking your advice, they just go and do whatever because they want to, or because "that won't happen." Having kids is having tiny, irrational, unreasonable people who think they know better than you and should be able to make all their own decisions. But they can't. Obviously they get more and more control over their own lives and more say as they get older (because I can just hear everyone now going on about how they need to go off and fly free or else they won't learn) but frankly my children are 8 and 5 and they're not there yet.
@InkSplat ...I find this to be unrealistic. Incredibly. And somewhat insulting. Because rules shouldn't be necessary if I was a better parent, is what you're really saying. I want to say this screams "I have no experience with children" but then I suppose you'd come back with some laundry list of nieces and nephews and babysitting jobs and whathaveyou. Remember where I mentioned kids are irrational and unreasonable? Mine at least are also the most contrary little people sometimes. You think you've got a great suggestion for some activity, or some treat, or some whatever, and then they want the complete opposite thing. Something that you suggested the day before and they moaned about. I have offered to read to my kids before and had them tell me "maybe tomorrow." I have offered to take them out to eat and have them whine that they want to eat at home. Playing with your kids is good and absolutely important. But kids who don't do things independently? Kids who never have to stop doing what they're doing because it's time to stop, or it's time to do something else, or take care of responsibilities, that they're just constantly getting enticed to do different things (I am still not figuring out how the hell you do this unless every day is amusement parks and ice cream) because obviously they would stop whatever fun activity they were doing if I was a better parent and found the magic convincing button...Not to mention how absolutely exhausting it is to be constantly, directly involved in entertaining your children. And all the shit that wouldn't get done since adults have their own sets of responsibilities...
I'm with mare_imbrium on this. A lot of what I've seen posted does have a hint of non-parents in some utopian world.
First off, chores. My son has several chores. He is responsible for feeding/watering the cats, helping put away groceries, and cleaning the toilet and bathroom sink (those were his choices, he likes cleaning the bathroom for some reason). I didn't do this because I had to when I was kid (in fact I didn't have chores as a kid). We simply think it's good for him to feel responsible for some part of the household and it's also what he does to earn his allowance - and for a kid who loves his Pokemon cards, allowance is pretty important.
Second, on doing things together. Any family tries to do things together, be it video games, outdoor play, or Lego time. However, a kid that can't entertain himself and feels like everything needs someone else to do it with them will drive you absolutely nuts.
Kids do need rules and structure - like mare said kids are completely irrational. Right now my son would eat cheeseburgers for every meal, stay up until 10pm, and cover my living room in stuffed animals and Lego bricks if he had the chance. Tomorrow, if I suggested burgers while playing Lego for dinner he might scream no. They occasionally seem like little people, but you have to remember they're not fully developed yet, and rules are necessary.
However, creating some bizarre time limit is stupid. Cutting a kid off midway through a card battle or when they're putting the roof on a Minecraft house is simply showing ignorance of the kid's hobbies.
Not to go on a tangent here but the Berenstein Bears are one of the books/shows that really drove me nuts and we tried to avoid. There are a TON of shows that are too old fashioned, too preachy or treat kids like idiots by talking down to them or talking in baby voices to them...
In our house we avoided Sesame Street (or they might as well call it Elmo Street), Max & Ruby, Barney, Peanuts, and a bunch of others because we felt they did exactly what the Bears are doing here - treating kids/parents like morons or pushing some outdated message.
Honestly, if you have to arbitrarily limit time, rather than being able to get your kid to do something else, then I don't know what to tell you.
Kid likes playing Pokemon? Alright then, pick up a few packs of the TCG and you've got a nice activity. Kid just wants to play Lego Harry Potter? Get him some real damn legos and build stuff together. Just wants to watch tv all the time? Read to him and make it fun, or get him a kid-friendly Pen & Paper RPG.
Yes, this does require you actually be involved, but that's just a sacrifice you're going to have to make.
I just find it strange that most of the things mentioned above seem to be portrayed as solo activities. "Go outside." "Do their homework." "Do their chores."
Every one of those things could (and should) be a family activity, and could be completely kept from being something they actually dread in the first place.
Chores especially, I think, are one of the absolute stupidest things ever for young kids to have, and are total cop-outs. Because, come on, admit it--you're not doing it to teach them responsibility. You're making them do the dishes because you sure as hell don't want to do them. Because your parents made you do them, and its something you feel justified in passing on to your kids, because your parents told you it had something to do with how you turned out as a responsible adult.
Whereas, hey, there are dishes to do? Do them together. A room needs to be cleaned? Clean it together and make it fun. Chores shouldn't be chores, and there is really no reason they need to be, unless you're living on a farm or something.
The problem comes from using the games as babysitters, because eventually you are going to lose your kid. If you've got a 7 year-old playing games.. why aren't you sitting next to him, either playing co-op, or cheering him on and showing interest? Because I can bet, in a situation like that, when you want to stop and do something else, so will they--because a large part of the fun they were having will be tied to you.
You may have magical kids but, in my experience, kids can be real dicks sometimes. They are oftentimes very anti any idea you may have. You're painting a very romantic picture of parenthood that lacks any grounding in reality.
Also, re: chores. It's very important to teach your kids to do things they don't like/aren't really interested in. It builds character and they are going to spend a large chunk of their life doing things they don't really like to do. Also, it teaches them to try new things - which is key in broadening their horizons. I doubt there are very many parents out there that use their children as mini butlers as you suggest. Oftentimes you end up secretly re-doing the things your kids do anyway.
Posts
that was not a rule I did a very good job of following
what the hell did they name their third child
The internet really has ruined me though.
Yes, this. Food drawn in kids' books always looked so good to me.
Also when did they get a third kid? What the heck is its name? They sorta named themselves into a corner with the first two.
edit: beat. Also I remember a very early one (maybe the first one) where it's all about the dad and son going out to chop down a tree and build a new bed, because it's revealed that the mom is having a new baby soon. The son's name at the time was "Small Bear," IIRC.
"Guess what, you've got a baby sister! Also, we changed your name."
Unplanned Pregnancy Berenstain
The rule was you had to do something "productive" which meant reading or going outside.
I read a lot of books as a child. It wasn't so bad.
Of course every weekend all I wanted to do was watch TV and play videogames because it was the only time I was allowed.
I was going to go with "Mailman Bear" but I like yours better.
From the wiki:
Over 260 Berenstain Bears books have been published since 1962.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_The_Berenstain_Bears_books
twitch.tv/Taramoor
@TaramoorPlays
Taramoor on Youtube
"Homey Bear"
the black sterotype bear
Now that is as the comic says terrifying.
While I still like the series, it's kinda weird to see it still kicking. Especially the religious ones...
EDIT: I also called them the BEARenstain Bears for goddamn ever.
Limiting internet use to one hour per day is probably the moronic dad foolish but well-meaning thing Papa does in the book. The kids will get in arguments because of it. I'll bet Mama Bear swoops in at the end with other activities that bring them all back together. Like some bullshit about how they're missing out the annual Berenstain Family Underwater Basket-Weave Jamboree.
This should be a crime. I'm not joking. We already have enough people running around in this country who can't read or write for shit, and now there's people publishing books enforcing this behavior of stupidity?
So this really is an actual thing.
My mind is blown.
Bother me on steam: kabbypan
I tried to argue that it depended on the game, the individual kid's personality, and the direction of the parents, but she kept interrupting me and insisted it was unhealthy and that studies show that educational games don't make as big a difference as people say.
Wii: 4521 1146 5179 1333 Pearl: 3394 4642 8367 HG: 1849 3913 3132
I'm going to assume you reversed these, since I can't imagine why anybody would want their kids to have less imagination, creativity, and persistence.
"Not until you finish your homework" isn't a limit on their computer time, and seems like the more obvious choice.
"Only an hour on the internet because you won't finish your homework!"
"But I don't have any homework tonight"
"SILENCE! Only an hour!"
Doesn't make much sense.
Well. We do tell them homework first. But we do think, sometimes, about setting a time limit too. I mean, they have other things to do. Dinner, chores, being with their family, soccer practice, etc. And I don't want to be like the wicked stepmother, telling them that they can't go to the ball until they do this and this and this and this and oh, too bad, you didn't make it (or make them feel like their day is a nonstop misery of work and activity and they can't sit and relax until half an hour before bed, or something). There are good things about a number, arbitrary or not. A set number is harder to argue around and it's harder to stretch into a forever of "I'm almost done. I've got to finish this. I've got to get to a save point. Hold on." Not saying that that doesn't happen (or that I wouldn't allow an extra five minutes depending on the situation). But a number is a boundary and something that can be expanded when they do well or they get older or more responsible.
But the real goal in all of this is to teach them, right? It's to teach them so that when they're adults they know how to limit themselves and not spend all day on the internet instead of working or studying. Actually it kind of makes me think of a technique I saw when I was thinking about being a teacher and sat in on a high school history class. Up on the board the teacher had a list of notes that went along with his lecture. The students were to copy it down exactly and then turn it in at test time to make sure it was done. This may seem useless because they're just copying. But it's great because this is actually a first step to learning how to take notes. They're getting used to taking notes, they will have something GOOD to study from and they will get used to discerning which things are the key things to write down when they start taking their own notes in later grades. But at the beginning it just seems like (especially to the kid, I'm sure) that you're forcing them to do something stupid (which describes most of parenting actually).
The problem is all kids are different. Maybe for some kids an hour a day works best. Maybe for some it's just a schedule. Maybe some can handle it more open ended. Or maybe a mix - like, there isn't a limit to how much per day but maybe if you still have things to do you can only have fifteen minutes at that time, and then you have to go finish a chore or something before you can play again.
Also, @Ganluan it's really better to have their grades never drop in the first place. Sometimes you might not know something is wrong with a kid's grades for a month or even longer, and that's a lot of damage done. Also that sort of thing sounds like it would have to happen once to be effective so they know you're not kidding. Then, say it takes another month to see improvement. Can you, as a parent, enforce such a strict punishment for so long? It's actually hard to do because you love your kids and you don't want them unhappy even though you know you're just trying to help them and teach them. Then once you let them have computer again will they find a balance or will they just screw up again? Best to try balancing experiments throughout than set a harsh punishment on a long-term goal.
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Video games should be treated exactly as any other leisure activity. If you want to limit the time with it, fine, but you better limit their time doing any other individual activity – reading, playing a particular game outside, arts and crafts, etc. – the same way. Otherwise, intentional or not, you're sending the message that video games are not as valid of a way to have fun as more traditional means. Even if it is limited evenly, it still seems unfair to try and dictate how a child should enjoy themselves. Suggestion and providing enticing exciting alternatives so the child wants to do a variety of things is the way to go. Provide inspiration. It's just a matter of putting in the effort to find what will tickle their fancy.
Completely arbitrary limits, especially short ones, are counter productive. They only serve to foster resentment and rebellion from their seemingly overbearing and irrational parents. The will complain to their friends and, when they grow up, will look back and laugh at how silly those rules were, not thank you. If you're dead-set on limits, reason it out based on how much time the child has between school and bed, how long homework and chores usually take, and how long family-dinner is. Make the individual-activity limit a significant percentage of the remainder. You will then have a reason to give when asked, and you still don't have to budge. You can be the parent with respect and authority, without being the friend, and still be close to the good guy.
And, unrelated to child rearing, but still related to @mare_imbrium's post:
That "note" taking example is terrible. It's not teaching them how to take notes; it's teaching them how to copy what's written. When you look at them down the line, particularly in college, you'll see the damage. They have no idea how to take notes. Copying the board exactly, trying to transcribe the lecture word for word, sometimes getting behind and forcing the teacher to repeat portions. And these tomes end up being shit for studying; they might as well read the book itself instead. Notes are supposed to be that; summaries, key points and concepts tailored specifically to the student's personal strengths and weaknesses, to help study efficiently and provide indication of what areas to go read the full text about. If you want to teach note taking right, do what my high-school bio teacher did: assign the chapter ahead (require notes to be between a min and max length based on knowledge of the curriculum and what range good notes should be in), collect and grade (and provide feedback for) notes on a Friday, give back on Monday and let them use it as a reference during the week's lectures. This forces students to learn how to distill information to create actual notes, formulate questions and a loose foundation, and allows them to focus on what's being taught during class time instead of keeping up with writing.
Oops, you're right. Thanks for pointing that out.
Don't worry Henroid, I backtraced it.
Consequences will never be the same Peccavi!
I'm totally in agreement that kids do need boundaries and there are times when they need to be pulled off the digital devices - I just don't think putting a set time is wise. Some parents would love their kids playing Lego or cards quiety for a few hours yet think a kid playing Minecraft or building an online Pokemon deck for the same time frame is somehow evil. The Berenstein Bears are just old fashioned crap (there's a lot of kid's books/programming that are too old for their own good but keep alive via nostalgia).
Kid likes playing Pokemon? Alright then, pick up a few packs of the TCG and you've got a nice activity. Kid just wants to play Lego Harry Potter? Get him some real damn legos and build stuff together. Just wants to watch tv all the time? Read to him and make it fun, or get him a kid-friendly Pen & Paper RPG.
Yes, this does require you actually be involved, but that's just a sacrifice you're going to have to make.
I just find it strange that most of the things mentioned above seem to be portrayed as solo activities. "Go outside." "Do their homework." "Do their chores."
Every one of those things could (and should) be a family activity, and could be completely kept from being something they actually dread in the first place.
Chores especially, I think, are one of the absolute stupidest things ever for young kids to have, and are total cop-outs. Because, come on, admit it--you're not doing it to teach them responsibility. You're making them do the dishes because you sure as hell don't want to do them. Because your parents made you do them, and its something you feel justified in passing on to your kids, because your parents told you it had something to do with how you turned out as a responsible adult.
Whereas, hey, there are dishes to do? Do them together. A room needs to be cleaned? Clean it together and make it fun. Chores shouldn't be chores, and there is really no reason they need to be, unless you're living on a farm or something.
The problem comes from using the games as babysitters, because eventually you are going to lose your kid. If you've got a 7 year-old playing games.. why aren't you sitting next to him, either playing co-op, or cheering him on and showing interest? Because I can bet, in a situation like that, when you want to stop and do something else, so will they--because a large part of the fun they were having will be tied to you.
In a later part of your post you note that kids are different. I would suggest that 'note taking' is not a universal prerequisite for many people. I can't speak to the numbers, but I and a number of other individuals learn best by doing. We learn best by exploring - say, via the internet. The internet was a part of my life growing up. My mother attempted to set arbitrary limits many, many times. When I wasn't actively circumnavigating her (and it is so, so incredibly easy to run around a busy and distracted parent) I was simply growing to resent her. I didn't learn anything about good habits and her attempts to prevent me from pursuing my own interests simply led me to hate everything to do with what she considered to be 'productive'. Immature? Certainly. But I was a teenager. We're discussing humans that are by definition immature.
As for academic success, I managed a bare 2.5 unweighted GPA in high school and a 2.8 in college. I'm now a development lead at a Fortune 500 company. Could I have gone further with better grades? Absolutely, and my story may be a more of a testament to exceptionalism and luck than evidence of academia's failure. But I didn't choose to put in the work in school and I'm not ashamed of the work I've done to get where I am since. Academic success is fantastic, but it's just one path. If your kids aren't into it, they'll have to break their backs, but they can still make their way. If you try to force them onto the easy road they'll just end up despising you for it, even if they eventually see the good you did.
Unless it got sold at a garage sale.
...
I'm kinda hoping it got sold at a garage sale.
Those who apparently still have resentment issues about their parents limiting their game time or internet time - is the resentment because your parents were trying to dictate or limit what you could choose to do (something all parents HAVE to do to at times) or was it actually because you got the impression from them that your hobby or interest wasn't valuable or constructive? Kids ARE immature and sometimes "because I said so" is the right answer. I know when I was a kid I spent a lot of time thinking about how I would be different, and I would use logic and reasoning to tell my children why something had to be the way it was. But you know what? Kids aren't logical and they aren't reasonable, and I actually do, a lot of times, try to explain to them why that answer was no, or why we're doing one thing over the other, or why this rule is the way it is. My kids like to argue. A lot. Another thing I learned a long time ago is that nobody will ever take advice, ever, because nobody ever cares about your experience or your knowledge because no matter what it is, they are sure that they are different. Seriously, I'm sure you've all seen friends not listen to you and then go and do dumb shit. They have no reasoning for why they're not taking your advice, they just go and do whatever because they want to, or because "that won't happen." Having kids is having tiny, irrational, unreasonable people who think they know better than you and should be able to make all their own decisions. But they can't. Obviously they get more and more control over their own lives and more say as they get older (because I can just hear everyone now going on about how they need to go off and fly free or else they won't learn) but frankly my children are 8 and 5 and they're not there yet.
@InkSplat ...I find this to be unrealistic. Incredibly. And somewhat insulting. Because rules shouldn't be necessary if I was a better parent, is what you're really saying. I want to say this screams "I have no experience with children" but then I suppose you'd come back with some laundry list of nieces and nephews and babysitting jobs and whathaveyou. Remember where I mentioned kids are irrational and unreasonable? Mine at least are also the most contrary little people sometimes. You think you've got a great suggestion for some activity, or some treat, or some whatever, and then they want the complete opposite thing. Something that you suggested the day before and they moaned about. I have offered to read to my kids before and had them tell me "maybe tomorrow." I have offered to take them out to eat and have them whine that they want to eat at home. Playing with your kids is good and absolutely important. But kids who don't do things independently? Kids who never have to stop doing what they're doing because it's time to stop, or it's time to do something else, or take care of responsibilities, that they're just constantly getting enticed to do different things (I am still not figuring out how the hell you do this unless every day is amusement parks and ice cream) because obviously they would stop whatever fun activity they were doing if I was a better parent and found the magic convincing button...Not to mention how absolutely exhausting it is to be constantly, directly involved in entertaining your children. And all the shit that wouldn't get done since adults have their own sets of responsibilities...
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What do you...
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Holy fuck. I've been living a lie.
First off, chores. My son has several chores. He is responsible for feeding/watering the cats, helping put away groceries, and cleaning the toilet and bathroom sink (those were his choices, he likes cleaning the bathroom for some reason). I didn't do this because I had to when I was kid (in fact I didn't have chores as a kid). We simply think it's good for him to feel responsible for some part of the household and it's also what he does to earn his allowance - and for a kid who loves his Pokemon cards, allowance is pretty important.
Second, on doing things together. Any family tries to do things together, be it video games, outdoor play, or Lego time. However, a kid that can't entertain himself and feels like everything needs someone else to do it with them will drive you absolutely nuts.
Kids do need rules and structure - like mare said kids are completely irrational. Right now my son would eat cheeseburgers for every meal, stay up until 10pm, and cover my living room in stuffed animals and Lego bricks if he had the chance. Tomorrow, if I suggested burgers while playing Lego for dinner he might scream no. They occasionally seem like little people, but you have to remember they're not fully developed yet, and rules are necessary.
However, creating some bizarre time limit is stupid. Cutting a kid off midway through a card battle or when they're putting the roof on a Minecraft house is simply showing ignorance of the kid's hobbies.
Not to go on a tangent here but the Berenstein Bears are one of the books/shows that really drove me nuts and we tried to avoid. There are a TON of shows that are too old fashioned, too preachy or treat kids like idiots by talking down to them or talking in baby voices to them...
In our house we avoided Sesame Street (or they might as well call it Elmo Street), Max & Ruby, Barney, Peanuts, and a bunch of others because we felt they did exactly what the Bears are doing here - treating kids/parents like morons or pushing some outdated message.
You may have magical kids but, in my experience, kids can be real dicks sometimes. They are oftentimes very anti any idea you may have. You're painting a very romantic picture of parenthood that lacks any grounding in reality.
Also, re: chores. It's very important to teach your kids to do things they don't like/aren't really interested in. It builds character and they are going to spend a large chunk of their life doing things they don't really like to do. Also, it teaches them to try new things - which is key in broadening their horizons. I doubt there are very many parents out there that use their children as mini butlers as you suggest. Oftentimes you end up secretly re-doing the things your kids do anyway.