JUST Black Panther Thread

245678

Posts

  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    wwtMask wrote: »
    Spectre-x wrote: »
    Oh, right. Strange. And Ghost Rider by virtue of the Penance Stare.

    But yeah, Black Panther? No.

    Since you have such intimate knowledge of BP's contingency plan, I'd love to hear all about it. As far as I know, it was only tangentially mentioned in the previous BP run. But, you know, thanks for your vastly uninformed opinion based on a comment that wasn't expounded upon in any detail that could give your opinion any weight.
    Look, the problem is that there are no contingency plans for Galactus. The very concept is implausible.

    Galactus is literally a force of nature. He's part of the cosmic pantheon. Having a plan for Galactus is like having a plan for Eternity. Yes, things have beaten him, but let's list those:
    1) Ultimate Nullifier. Reason: it's part of Galactus!. Status: unavailable (re-absorbed).
    2) Infinity Gauntlet. Reason: omnipotence is omnipotence. Status: permanently unavailable (see Illuminati 2).
    3) Annihilus, sort of. Reason: unclear, but probably tied into Annihilus connecting with multiple Power Cosmic tools (e.g. the quantum bands), and even then he was only able to do it because Thanos helped. Status: unavailable to anyone but Annihilus (and besides, that little slug just was re-born and is busy being raised to adulthood in a crippled empire).

    Now, go back to when the FF first beat Galactus: the Watcher broke his oath (for the first time in Watcher history) and picked the FF. At that time, Dr. Strange was already practicing (even if his comic wasn't running...I'm not sure). Logically, Uatu picked the most-able, and that was Reed.

    Given that Reed now has no way of beating Galactus, we can assume that everyone else who existed at that time would be unable to do so (unless they're significantly more powerful now). T'Challa isn't. He's dumber and less educated than Reed (however little common sense you may think Reed has after CW, he's still the smartest man on the planet, and the most educated). T'Challa has no where near the magical power of Strange, the technological power of Reed or Namor, nor the sheer physical power of most remaining Mutants.

    As has been posted: the only difference between T'Challa's plan and anyone else's - no matter what the plan is - is a few milliseconds of cocky, bigoted self-assuredness.
    Sigh...this again. Being the subject of racism and oppression doesn't preclude one from, in turn, being racist. But thanks for trying to imply that.
    I agree with you in principle, nonetheless we have this problem: in all of Doom's history, we have one instance of racism (his poor treatment of Power Man, inexplicably ripping him off for a few hundred dollars). Far from it, we have a huge history of Doom simply thinking he is better than everyone. Doom, by all indications, is above concepts such as race simply because he's so superior (in his mind, at least).

    Moreover, the explanation "Doom" used - some supposed biological differences between the races - is just absurd. If you're going to have a scientist be racist, at least have him be racist for some reason that isn't constantly refuted by science. Hell, have him be a Mormon and claim that dark skin is a sign of God's disdain (check: the reasons blacks are blacks, to classic Mormon theology, is that it's the mark of Cain, while the reason American Indians are dark-skinned is because as a lost tribe of Israel they slaughtered the other lost tribe, the people of the angel Moroni). Sure, it's a nonsense reason for racism, but at least its not logically inconsistent with Doom (though picking a distinctly American religion might be problematic for pristinely Latverian Doom).

    I'm no opponent of character change - that's part of why I'm very happy with Civil War, by and large. I think it's not only acceptable but desirable that characters evolve. Otherwise I don't need to buy new comics. Nonetheless, it's confusing to see Doom represented in this way without at least a justification. After all, we got to see why Stark and Richards shift so strongly (Stamford, etc.) instead of just having CW1 be Stark and Richards saying "Hey, let's call for registration...despite our being stark opponents of it in the past!"

    Just call it a Doombot and be done...(oh, wait: Hudlin already had Doom be so stupid as to not realize that T'Challa would smell the difference...never mind that his Doombots have fooled other hyper-sensitives e.g. Wolverine).

    mattharvest on
  • skippydumptruckskippydumptruck begin again Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    They should do an arc where someone steals BP's herb and becomes a super strong adversary. And maybe have BP's powers go away because he needs the herb for maintenance.

    skippydumptruck on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    I'll have to re-read when I get home. I vaguely recall the reference to it in the HoM issue, but after that the most I can remember is maybe someone making an off-handed implication.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User
    edited February 2007
    They should do an arc where someone steals BP's herb and becomes a super strong adversary. And maybe have BP's powers go away because he needs the herb for maintenance.

    Only the royal bloodline can take the herb without falling into a coma, but I suppose that guy with the guy in his head could do it.

    robosagogo on
  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User
    edited February 2007
    wwtMask wrote: »
    I'll have to re-read when I get home. I vaguely recall the reference to it in the HoM issue, but after that the most I can remember is maybe someone making an off-handed implication.

    I don't see how you could miss it when there's a scene where two members of his harem (Shanna the She-Devil and Monica Lynn) fight over him, and direct reference to it on the part of Storm which earns a response from T'Challa along the lines of, "But I was thinking of you the entire time!"

    robosagogo on
  • skippydumptruckskippydumptruck begin again Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    robosagogo wrote: »
    They should do an arc where someone steals BP's herb and becomes a super strong adversary. And maybe have BP's powers go away because he needs the herb for maintenance.

    Only the royal bloodline can take the herb without falling into a coma, but I suppose that guy with the guy in his head could do it.

    Oh. Maybe a long-lost cousin, then!

    skippydumptruck on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    wwtMask wrote: »
    Spectre-x wrote: »
    Oh, right. Strange. And Ghost Rider by virtue of the Penance Stare.

    But yeah, Black Panther? No.

    Since you have such intimate knowledge of BP's contingency plan, I'd love to hear all about it. As far as I know, it was only tangentially mentioned in the previous BP run. But, you know, thanks for your vastly uninformed opinion based on a comment that wasn't expounded upon in any detail that could give your opinion any weight.
    Look, the problem is that there are no contingency plans for Galactus. The very concept is implausible.

    And yet it has existed in continuity since the third volume of Black Panther. There's a limit to one's desire to not accept reality and you've reached it.
    Galactus is literally a force of nature. He's part of the cosmic pantheon. Having a plan for Galactus is like having a plan for Eternity. Yes, things have beaten him, but let's list those:
    1) Ultimate Nullifier. Reason: it's part of Galactus!. Status: unavailable (re-absorbed).
    2) Infinity Gauntlet. Reason: omnipotence is omnipotence. Status: permanently unavailable (see Illuminati 2).
    3) Annihilus, sort of. Reason: unclear, but probably tied into Annihilus connecting with multiple Power Cosmic tools (e.g. the quantum bands), and even then he was only able to do it because Thanos helped. Status: unavailable to anyone but Annihilus (and besides, that little slug just was re-born and is busy being raised to adulthood in a crippled empire).

    Now, go back to when the FF first beat Galactus: the Watcher broke his oath (for the first time in Watcher history) and picked the FF. At that time, Dr. Strange was already practicing (even if his comic wasn't running...I'm not sure). Logically, Uatu picked the most-able, and that was Reed.

    Given that Reed now has no way of beating Galactus, we can assume that everyone else who existed at that time would be unable to do so (unless they're significantly more powerful now). T'Challa isn't. He's dumber and less educated than Reed (however little common sense you may think Reed has after CW, he's still the smartest man on the planet, and the most educated). T'Challa has no where near the magical power of Strange, the technological power of Reed or Namor, nor the sheer physical power of most remaining Mutants.

    I have no idea why you think I'm arguing otherwise. You're not only arguing a tangential point to the discussion, you're also arguing with yourself.
    As has been posted: the only difference between T'Challa's plan and anyone else's - no matter what the plan is - is a few milliseconds of cocky, bigoted self-assuredness.

    I'm assuming you know this because you have all the plan laid out in detail? Effective or not, you don't know what the plan is, so pardon me if I think your dismissal is premature at best.
    Sigh...this again. Being the subject of racism and oppression doesn't preclude one from, in turn, being racist. But thanks for trying to imply that.
    I agree with you in principle, nonetheless we have this problem: in all of Doom's history, we have one instance of racism (his poor treatment of Power Man, inexplicably ripping him off for a few hundred dollars). Far from it, we have a huge history of Doom simply thinking he is better than everyone. Doom, by all indications, is above concepts such as race simply because he's so superior (in his mind, at least).

    Moreover, the explanation "Doom" used - some supposed biological differences between the races - is just absurd. If you're going to have a scientist be racist, at least have him be racist for some reason that isn't constantly refuted by science. Hell, have him be a Mormon and claim that dark skin is a sign of God's disdain (check: the reasons blacks are blacks, to classic Mormon theology, is that it's the mark of Cain, while the reason American Indians are dark-skinned is because as a lost tribe of Israel they slaughtered the other lost tribe, the people of the angel Moroni). Sure, it's a nonsense reason for racism, but at least its not logically inconsistent with Doom (though picking a distinctly American religion might be problematic for pristinely Latverian Doom).

    As I said before, Doom thinking he's superior to everyone does not preclude his being racist. If anything, it makes a stronger case for it. You can't say that he doesn't hate different people for different reasons and to different degrees. Hell, I can't even say he's actually racist. Rather, he's said some arguably racist things in the past. Whether he actually believes them, I can't say.

    Which brings me to the other point I've made before: I think Doom said what he said to bait T'Challa. It obviously worked quite well. And him being a genius scientist, again, doesn't preclude his personal beliefs from affecting his work.
    I'm no opponent of character change - that's part of why I'm very happy with Civil War, by and large. I think it's not only acceptable but desirable that characters evolve. Otherwise I don't need to buy new comics. Nonetheless, it's confusing to see Doom represented in this way without at least a justification. After all, we got to see why Stark and Richards shift so strongly (Stamford, etc.) instead of just having CW1 be Stark and Richards saying "Hey, let's call for registration...despite our being stark opponents of it in the past!"

    I'm glad to hear it. It'd be nice if you'd maintain an open mind here as well.
    Just call it a Doombot and be done...(oh, wait: Hudlin already had Doom be so stupid as to not realize that T'Challa would smell the difference...never mind that his Doombots have fooled other hyper-sensitives e.g. Wolverine).

    Well, beyond simply underestimating T'Challa (I highly doubt that), I imagine it was more likely bravado or even a slightly insulting test. These guys have a history together and it's not pleasant. I can't imagine Doom would pass up an opportunity to do such a thing.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User
    edited February 2007
    Even if Doom was simply baiting Panther, he usually does a better job of it than that. Making clearly false statements and saying Tonto is barely as bad as what you hear on a playground, and hardly what you'd hear from a man intelligent enough to deduce your greater insecurities just by looking at you.

    robosagogo on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    robosagogo wrote: »
    wwtMask wrote: »
    I'll have to re-read when I get home. I vaguely recall the reference to it in the HoM issue, but after that the most I can remember is maybe someone making an off-handed implication.

    I don't see how you could miss it when there's a scene where two members of his harem (Shanna the She-Devil and Monica Lynn) fight over him, and direct reference to it on the part of Storm which earns a response from T'Challa along the lines of, "But I was thinking of you the entire time!"

    Okay, if Shanna was in it, I should definitely remember it. Which issue was that?

    EDIT: It was the House of M issue, apparently. So...it doesn't exist in 616, and even then Storm seemed to only stay in the marriage for political reasons. I'm not really seeing where this is a ding against the way Hudlin wrote that issue.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User
    edited February 2007
    wwtMask wrote: »
    robosagogo wrote: »
    wwtMask wrote: »
    I'll have to re-read when I get home. I vaguely recall the reference to it in the HoM issue, but after that the most I can remember is maybe someone making an off-handed implication.

    I don't see how you could miss it when there's a scene where two members of his harem (Shanna the She-Devil and Monica Lynn) fight over him, and direct reference to it on the part of Storm which earns a response from T'Challa along the lines of, "But I was thinking of you the entire time!"

    Okay, if Shanna was in it, I should definitely remember it. Which issue was that?

    The HoM issue, like you said.

    robosagogo on
  • O.C.O.C. Registered User
    edited February 2007
    I personally really enjoy the current Black Panther run immensely. Then again I am a big fan of most of what marvel is doing these days. I really like the way over the last few years they have been focusing on underdeveloped or misused characters and fleshing them out instead of doing the 90s thing and making new characters whenever they ran out of ideas for the current character. For instance, before disassembled I wouldn’t read the Avengers, because quite frankly I didn’t care about the characters. But now that Marvel has gone back and taken there time to develop even minor characters for today’s reader like Ms. Marvel, Wonder-Man, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, and yes Black Panther I find myself reading most of marvel’s Heroes runs and less of X-Men where my interest started with X-Men 36. This is because the marvel heroes even if they seemed minor in the past now seem to be larger in stature. Honestly X-Men needs help these days, besides Astonishing X-Men none of those titles are really living up to their potential currently. But I digress. What Hudlin is doing on the Black Panther is essentially the same process, granted he may from time to time go overboard on the powering up it is all to present this regal view of the panther, as it should be in my opinion. I personally always thought that if you were going to make Wakanda such an amazingly advanced place the pinnacle of their society , which is the Black Panther should be at least on par with Batman or Iron Man in terms of intelligence. In terms of inspiration he should be on par with Captain America , to people of HIS country and not America, notice the distinction it is very subtle but it is there. Besides the point that Hudlin’s run on Black Panther has given me my favorite comic book moment of recent history. Him standing out in front of that army in the 19th century, a lone man against all them ( with his tech .lol) That stance and look said all I needed to know about the character and isn’t that the mark of a great comic book?

    Now there are no doubt those who have a problem with pumping up one character at the expense of others. To this I say to them that this happens everywhere in comics. Lets again look at Batman, at this point in time Batman is practially a God. And hey I have no problem with it, I actually like the characterization but that is for another time and another argument. My point is that having him defeat superman, who is at least on par with the sentry ( honestly not sure who is more powerful) , by using strategy in DK2 by Frank Miller is the same situation as other characters who are advanced at the expense of another character. I have no problem with it when it is done in a thoughtful manner, which I personally believe is the case with most of the stuff in Hudlin’s Black panther. I only have a problem when stuff like Iron Man punching the Human Torch like he is nothing in Civil War 7. That bothers me a lot, because there is no thought to it, it is only hey look at how badass Iron Man is, with zero explanation ( besides extremis and all that crap ) Never mind that throughout Civil War the Human Torch has been made to look like a child, seriously getting beat up by a mob? Come on, the dude has faced off against cosmic level threats. Again I digress, wow this a long post. My point is that powering up Black Panther when it is done in the manner Hudlin has done it is fine with me, even if he mischaracterizes Doom, which I am not sure he did but again that is for another argument. Because I think in this case the ends justify the means. I want Black Panther personally to be of a larger stature than just a member of the Avengers. I don’t want him to assist Captain America , I want him to be on par with him. Now I am sure that many can point to times pre – Hudlin when that is true, but I think it should constantly be true.


    Lastly, I don’t like the way that mask is practically the only one really defending the character and the writer. I have been a lurker for most of the time, precisely because I tend to go on, but some comments really annoyed me. So to mask I say you have an ally sir and to the rest

    HAVE AT THEE

    lol

    O.C. on
    who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worth cause; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement; and who at the worst if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat. -- Theodore Roosevelt
  • Spectre-xSpectre-x Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    I'm not sure where you got the idea that Superman is as powerful as the Sentry, because the Sentry is regularly portrayed as several thousand times stronger than Supes.

    What with the power of a million exploding suns and all.

    He's really not exaggerating with that, there have been remarks about him having fought Galactus to a standstill single-handedly.

    Spectre-x on
  • LRGLRG Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Hudlin's run has been retcon after retcon and readily falls back on events. Klaw got all kinds of fucked up in ways that didn't gel with continunity, and originally he killed T'Chaka on Wakandan land, so that is at least one Loss for Wakanda.

    Then The book went right for a damn House of M tie-in, which is lame and directly led into BP and Storm getting married. Look, I would be all for T'Challa and Storm getting married, but it was so rushed and forced. It stikes me like Hudlin thought the character wasn't cool or good enough on his own without Storm to raise his popularity or something.

    On the matter, I think T'Challa is at least as smart as Tony Stark and has too be ten times as rich.


    And the last two issues has had some horrible art.


    Outside of Hudlin's BP, I think it would been cool as hell if T'Challa had stayed in the Illuminati.

    Also, let's think guys, why would Panther even fight Silver Surfer, much less go toe-to-toe with him?


    Should make for a good yarn.

    LRG on
  • AlgertmanAlgertman Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Spectre-x wrote: »
    I'm not sure where you got the idea that Superman is as powerful as the Sentry, because the Sentry is regularly portrayed as several thousand times stronger than Supes.

    What with the power of a million exploding suns and all.

    He's really not exaggerating with that, there have been remarks about him having fought Galactus to a standstill single-handedly.

    Superman > Sentry

    Algertman on
  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User
    edited February 2007
    Algertman wrote: »
    Spectre-x wrote: »
    I'm not sure where you got the idea that Superman is as powerful as the Sentry, because the Sentry is regularly portrayed as several thousand times stronger than Supes.

    What with the power of a million exploding suns and all.

    He's really not exaggerating with that, there have been remarks about him having fought Galactus to a standstill single-handedly.

    Superman > Sentry
    But he's Superman with fewer weaknesses.

    robosagogo on
  • O.C.O.C. Registered User
    edited February 2007
    Well I honestly, am not sure if the Sentry is more powerful. I remember the "Our Worlds at War" event a few years ago, where Superman flew into the sun and then moved an entire planet. Also, Superman doesnt have to worry about the void. That is the reason that the Sentry was able to beat the adaptoid in New Avengers Annual 1, even after Iron Man's badass "group hug" move inspired by Spider-Man's suggestion. I think in a head to head fight it would be really close.

    O.C. on
    who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worth cause; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement; and who at the worst if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat. -- Theodore Roosevelt
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Thanks for the support, OC. We'll change these guys' minds yet. :D
    LRG wrote: »
    Hudlin's run has been retcon after retcon and readily falls back on events. Klaw got all kinds of fucked up in ways that didn't gel with continunity, and originally he killed T'Chaka on Wakandan land, so that is at least one Loss for Wakanda.

    Um...he killed the King either way, so it still seems like a loss to me. That retcon doesn't bother me too much because the primary ideas were still communicated. The details that were changed weren't so important that the story was significantly different.
    Then The book went right for a damn House of M tie-in, which is lame and directly led into BP and Storm getting married.

    I take exception to this. Not only was BP leader of a united Africa, but it was also one of the few human friendly places on earth and it was in a cold war with the HoM. Further, T'Challa not only took out Sabretooth, but he also managed to lure Apocalypse into a trap to get obliterated by Black Bolt. Even the stuff with Pietro and the friction between Storm and BP was cool. I know it's your opinion, but I thought that issue was pretty damn good.
    Look, I would be all for T'Challa and Storm getting married, but it was so rushed and forced. It stikes me like Hudlin thought the character wasn't cool or good enough on his own without Storm to raise his popularity or something.

    Repeated for the umpteenth time: the Storm/BP marriage was intended prior to the end of vol. 3 and, as far as I remember, Hudlin talked with Priest about it a bit before running with it. Yes, it was a big event and a bit of a gimmick. Yes, it was rushed. Im sure race had something to do with it even. But both Hudlin and Priest wanted to go in that direction and the editors thought it was a good idea. It was and still is and, given a chance, it will continue to be. But if you're going to constantly discount every retcon, I can see why you'd have a problem with this and a hundred other stories that are predicated on prior retcons.
    On the matter, I think T'Challa is at least as smart as Tony Stark and has too be ten times as rich.

    I'm pretty sure Tony's smarter, but it's cool that you think so highly of T'Challa.
    And the last two issues has had some horrible art.

    Yeah, they had like 4 pencilers on that issue, so the quality varied quite a bit. I can't wait till they get a regular artist and drop the fill-ins.
    Outside of Hudlin's BP, I think it would been cool as hell if T'Challa had stayed in the Illuminati.

    I wanted that at first as well, but it looks like opting out of the Illuminati will keep him on the right side of this World War Hulk. The Illuminati is so fucked.
    Also, let's think guys, why would Panther even fight Silver Surfer, much less go toe-to-toe with him?

    Should make for a good yarn.

    I'm curious about this too. With all the love that McDuffie gets, and the fact that I liked his first issue of FF, I'm really looking forward to finding out.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Algertman wrote: »
    Spectre-x wrote: »
    I'm not sure where you got the idea that Superman is as powerful as the Sentry, because the Sentry is regularly portrayed as several thousand times stronger than Supes.

    What with the power of a million exploding suns and all.

    He's really not exaggerating with that, there have been remarks about him having fought Galactus to a standstill single-handedly.

    Superman > Sentry

    :roll:

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User
    edited February 2007
    I think Hudlin kind of missed the point of House of M, which was to depict how different the Marvel Universe would be if Mutants were in power. Instead, Hudlin took it as an opportunity to prop up Black Panther and elevate him above everyone else yet again, only this time by granting him greater abilities as a leader and a love interest in addition to his usual skills as a fighter and King of Wakanda (instead of savior of Africa).

    I mean, given the policy of non-intervention that prevents Panther from even giving out cures to the needy because of the corruption of government officials they may not have even voted for, what about the House of M would motivate Panther to take charge when the situation of Africa is less dire thanks to Storm's actions on the continent's behalf?

    And why, under any circumstances and specifically under the House of M, would traditionally strong and independent Marvel heroines like Shanna the She-Devil willingly join Black Panther's harem?

    Hudlin completely ignored the purpose behind HoM and the effect Mutant rule would actually have on Africa and, instead, wrote an issue of "Black Panther is awesome and can beat a bunch of mutants in a few pages" even less in touch with the rest of the Marvel Universe than his prior stories. He probably figured that, since it was an alternate Marvel Universe, he could do whatever the fuck he wanted.

    Meanwhile, other House of M stories actually dared to give thoughtful consideration to the effect of Mutant rule on their characters, going so far as to even show heroes who were different under the circumstances, and not just even stronger and more irresistable to women than before.

    robosagogo on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    robosagogo wrote: »
    I think Hudlin kind of missed the point of House of M, which was to depict how different the Marvel Universe would be if Mutants were in power. Instead, Hudlin took it as an opportunity to prop up Black Panther and elevate him above everyone else yet again, only this time by granting him greater abilities as a leader and a love interest in addition to his usual skills as a fighter and King of Wakanda (instead of savior of Africa).

    I mean, given the policy of non-intervention that prevents Panther from even giving out cures to the needy because of the corruption of government officials they may not have even voted for, what about the House of M would motivate Panther to take charge when the situation of Africa is less dire thanks to Storm's actions on the continent's behalf?

    And why, under any circumstances and specifically under the House of M, would traditionally strong and independent Marvel heroines like Shanna the She-Devil willingly join Black Panther's harem?

    Hudlin completely ignored the purpose behind HoM and the effect Mutant rule would actually have on Africa and, instead, wrote an issue of "Black Panther is awesome and can beat a bunch of mutants in a few pages" even less in touch with the rest of the Marvel Universe than his prior stories. He probably figured that, since it was an alternate Marvel Universe, he could do whatever the fuck he wanted.

    Meanwhile, other House of M stories actually dared to give thoughtful consideration to the effect of Mutant rule on their characters, going so far as to even show heroes who were different under the circumstances, and not just even stronger and more irresistable to women than before.

    Damn, give the guy a fucking break. He had one, ONE HoM tie-in issue, and you're giving him shit for not being able to chronicle everything that led to that snapshot of time in 22 pages? I'd love to see more exposition to explain why things were the way they were, but there wasn't space. Is it so hard to accept that, in an alternate reality, prior events you don't know about changed things so that they turned out the way they did? That wasn't 616, so why are you expecting everything to be exactly like 616? I hope you never read Exiles; your head is liable to burst into flames.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    No see.

    In that one issue, all he had to do was show how life was harder for a non-mutant married to a successful and powerful mutant in a world RUN by mutants.

    Instead Black Panther, a non-mutant, has it even BETTER.

    The Muffin Man on
  • O.C.O.C. Registered User
    edited February 2007
    Lets see

    I think Hudlin's point during the House of M is that regardless of Human or Mutant rule for Black Panther his responsibilities are the same.

    As far as panther taking action, maybe and I am just spitballing here, but maybe his allying with the others in House of M was meant to foreshadow and parallel the events in Civil War when another Alliance is struck. Again showing that regardless of overall world rule, the Panther's situation is unchanged to a certain reasonable extent. Either way he is ruler of a people whose race, but not the people he protects and rules ( important distinction central to Wakanda) have been exploited. Whether it be Wakandan's being human in House of M ( not sure about how many wakandans were mutants before or during House of M) or being African in the 616 universe.

    As far as the policy of non intervention in terms of cures to the needy, I have to this to say in response. Citing Black Panther 3, where Panther says , "They are not for sale, until the Spiritual Advancementof the west catches up with their technological prowess. it would be irresponsible to share our scientific discoveries with you." He goes on to say " The fact that every conversation here is framed in terms of profit and power says it all." This illustrates exactly why he doesn't just gives the cures out. He knows how the world works. Even if the cures were given out some drug company would make a tiny variation on it and market it themselves and at the same time they may up the price considerably or even reduce the effectiveness ( if possible) to make it a stop gap measure to make more money on it over time. Doubt me , look at intellectual property cases some time. K but lets say he can even give it out, what is to say that organizations like the FDA would even allow it to be distributed. heck even drugs from Canada come under fire in America, can u ever imagine our government allowing some wonder drug from a secretive African country to be distribubted. Furthermore, with things becoming more tightly regulated at the end of the civil war in the 616 verse a free drug from wakanda would most likely be turned down. K but hey lets say somehow the drug gets to the right people, and Wakanda cures all these diseases and lets forget about the population side effects and legal liability could u imagine how embarrassed countries outside of Wakanda would be, maybe they would act against Wakanda to knock them down a peg.

    Moving on to his other comment about " Spirtual advancement" Right now our world and the 616 verse of marvel for the most part ( exceptions being inhumans, wakanda, and other kingdoms and communism and other ideolgies in our world which bring a host issues I would rather not delve into.) is still being governed by the "invisible hand" of free market economics. Now I graduated in Finance and am studying corporate law in law school so I am a huge supporter of capitalism, but with that said for a society to be able to move beyond the foundation of self interest in free market economics and STILL be prosperous is such a HUGE step, that perhaps one would expect the same of others before giving out cures to countries which had people who would use it to get rich. Granted Wakanda does have vibranium but harvesting such a precious resource without the traditional economics of self interest is amazing to me.

    As for the harem thing, I honestly have no explanation that is the one thing about the character that didn't ring true for me, but hey NO character is perfect.

    As far as Black Panther in the house of M being awesome and being able to beat a bunch of Mutants I read it more as a ruler getting over himself and humbling himself to ask for help in a time of need. I mean wasn't Black Bolt the one who did the most power wielding and wasn't Namor there too? ( Not sure havent read it in a while) Incidently isnt "Imperius Rex" the most awesome battle chant of all time?
    Hell I say it just when working out. lol ( I am so sorry) lol

    O.C. on
    who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worth cause; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement; and who at the worst if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat. -- Theodore Roosevelt
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    No see.

    In that one issue, all he had to do was show how life was harder for a non-mutant married to a successful and powerful mutant in a world RUN by mutants.

    Instead Black Panther, a non-mutant, has it even BETTER.

    So a sob story about how the regent of a technically superior nation becomes a second class citizen (or, more likely, is annihilated along with the rest of Wakanda) is better than a story about how the same regent anticipates what's about to go down and, with the help of his mutant wife, goes on to unify Africa, thereby creating a place where humans aren't denigrated by mutants AND presenting legitimate opposition to the HoM?

    I'm really glad you don't write this book.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User
    edited February 2007
    wwtMask wrote: »
    robosagogo wrote: »
    I think Hudlin kind of missed the point of House of M, which was to depict how different the Marvel Universe would be if Mutants were in power. Instead, Hudlin took it as an opportunity to prop up Black Panther and elevate him above everyone else yet again, only this time by granting him greater abilities as a leader and a love interest in addition to his usual skills as a fighter and King of Wakanda (instead of savior of Africa).

    I mean, given the policy of non-intervention that prevents Panther from even giving out cures to the needy because of the corruption of government officials they may not have even voted for, what about the House of M would motivate Panther to take charge when the situation of Africa is less dire thanks to Storm's actions on the continent's behalf?

    And why, under any circumstances and specifically under the House of M, would traditionally strong and independent Marvel heroines like Shanna the She-Devil willingly join Black Panther's harem?

    Hudlin completely ignored the purpose behind HoM and the effect Mutant rule would actually have on Africa and, instead, wrote an issue of "Black Panther is awesome and can beat a bunch of mutants in a few pages" even less in touch with the rest of the Marvel Universe than his prior stories. He probably figured that, since it was an alternate Marvel Universe, he could do whatever the fuck he wanted.

    Meanwhile, other House of M stories actually dared to give thoughtful consideration to the effect of Mutant rule on their characters, going so far as to even show heroes who were different under the circumstances, and not just even stronger and more irresistable to women than before.

    Damn, give the guy a fucking break. He had one, ONE HoM tie-in issue, and you're giving him shit for not being able to chronicle everything that led to that snapshot of time in 22 pages? I'd love to see more exposition to explain why things were the way they were, but there wasn't space. Is it so hard to accept that, in an alternate reality, prior events you don't know about changed things so that they turned out the way they did? That wasn't 616, so why are you expecting everything to be exactly like 616? I hope you never read Exiles; your head is liable to burst into flames.

    Every issue of Exiles and What If? has managed to succinctly explain the diversion that took place and led to the important differences seen in whatever version of the Marvel Universe is being explored. Minor costume changes and other similarly unimportant details are left to the imagination, but the key differences such as someone being the savior of an entire nation are always properly justified.

    Hell, look at the HoM tie-ins written by everybody else. Spider-Man is a celebrity because he pretended to be a mutant. Captain America is an old guy because he didn't spend all that time on ice. The changes in the status of these characters was far more drastic, and yet somehow the character who underwent the least of changes is also given the least explanation as to how he got to where he is (actually, no explanation is given).

    Muffin's version isn't necessarily better, but at least it's an attempt to play along with the rest of the Marvel Universe and the intent of HoM. It goes without saying that it beats Hudlin's version, which as I said, makes no sense whatsoever when it shows Black Panther doing things he presently has no desire to do in spite of opposition that should prevent him from accomplishing as much.

    And on top of that, at least one character is made into Black Panther's whore for no reason and a villain twice as experienced and just as strong as Black Panther is decapitated in short order even though Wolverine and others have never had such an easy time with the guy.

    robosagogo on
  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Why on earth would storm stand by and let Black Panther horde cures anyway? Storm is completely about the betterment of Africa... that's paramount to her character, yet here she sees all the cures, technology, and human-traps Wakanda has and just lets it go?

    That's my big problem with BP, why I stopped buying it after the first run, Storm and BP should be killing each other, not fucking married.

    Mask, I do understand where you're coming from... Marvel has been devoid of a powerful black male for a long ass time, hell, even Storm was almost always part of a team... it's easy to see why someone you identify with would ignite strong emotions in you. I know if there was a powerful Jew I would probably get behind them too... but it does seem that Hudlin has elevated Black Panther by attempting to diminish others... and when you start to diminish fan favorites like Doom and Namor, you have to prepare for a huge backlash.

    Sentry on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User
    edited February 2007
    O.C. wrote: »
    Lets see

    I think Hudlin's point during the House of M is that regardless of Human or Mutant rule for Black Panther his responsibilities are the same.

    As far as panther taking action, maybe and I am just spitballing here, but maybe his allying with the others in House of M was meant to foreshadow and parallel the events in Civil War when another Alliance is struck. Again showing that regardless of overall world rule, the Panther's situation is unchanged to a certain reasonable extent. Either way he is ruler of a people whose race, but not the people he protects and rules ( important distinction central to Wakanda) have been exploited. Whether it be Wakandan's being human in House of M ( not sure about how many wakandans were mutants before or during House of M) or being African in the 616 universe.

    No, actually, House of M shows that Panther is apparently willing to cure all of Africa's ills only when the governments overseas are ruled by mutants rather than humans. If Panther has a responsibility to his fellow African people in HoM, then that same responsibility is absent from 616 for no apparent reason.
    As far as the policy of non intervention in terms of cures to the needy, I have to this to say in response. Citing Black Panther 3, where Panther says , "They are not for sale, until the Spiritual Advancementof the west catches up with their technological prowess. it would be irresponsible to share our scientific discoveries with you." He goes on to say " The fact that every conversation here is framed in terms of profit and power says it all." This illustrates exactly why he doesn't just gives the cures out. He knows how the world works. Even if the cures were given out some drug company would make a tiny variation on it and market it themselves and at the same time they may up the price considerably or even reduce the effectiveness ( if possible) to make it a stop gap measure to make more money on it over time. Doubt me , look at intellectual property cases some time. K but lets say he can even give it out, what is to say that organizations like the FDA would even allow it to be distributed. heck even drugs from Canada come under fire in America, can u ever imagine our government allowing some wonder drug from a secretive African country to be distribubted. Furthermore, with things becoming more tightly regulated at the end of the civil war in the 616 verse a free drug from wakanda would most likely be turned down. K but hey lets say somehow the drug gets to the right people, and Wakanda cures all these diseases and lets forget about the population side effects and legal liability could u imagine how embarrassed countries outside of Wakanda would be, maybe they would act against Wakanda to knock them down a peg.

    Moving on to his other comment about " Spirtual advancement" Right now our world and the 616 verse of marvel for the most part ( exceptions being inhumans, wakanda, and other kingdoms and communism and other ideolgies in our world which bring a host issues I would rather not delve into.) is still being governed by the "invisible hand" of free market economics. Now I graduated in Finance and am studying corporate law in law school so I am a huge supporter of capitalism, but with that said for a society to be able to move beyond the foundation of self interest in free market economics and STILL be prosperous is such a HUGE step, that perhaps one would expect the same of others before giving out cures to countries which had people who would use it to get rich. Granted Wakanda does have vibranium but harvesting such a precious resource without the traditional economics of self interest is amazing to me.

    As for the harem thing, I honestly have no explanation that is the one thing about the character that didn't ring true for me, but hey NO character is perfect.

    As far as Black Panther in the house of M being awesome and being able to beat a bunch of Mutants I read it more as a ruler getting over himself and humbling himself to ask for help in a time of need. I mean wasn't Black Bolt the one who did the most power wielding and wasn't Namor there too? ( Not sure havent read it in a while) Incidently isnt "Imperius Rex" the most awesome battle chant of all time?
    Hell I say it just when working out. lol ( I am so sorry) lol

    Did you notice that the reasons you gave for Panther withholding cures from the outside world have more to do with the spiritual advancement of politicians and drug companies rather than the world at large? He's effectively allowing deaths he can prevent because a small group of people, rather than the people who desperately need help, don't share his values.

    That's like me not giving a family enough food to save all their lives because I think one of the parents is an asshole, and he's the one who approached me.



    It's not just that Panther doesn't think the rest of the world is worthy of everything Wakanda has, but also that he thinks Wakanda is worthy when nothing has been shown to explain why that is the case. What makes it so Wakandans deserve to live longer when they seem prone to the same foibles the rest of the world suffer from, save Panther whose only apparent flaw is thoroughly justified arrogance and a penchant for whores (but only until Storm came along)?

    Isn't the Wakandan feeling of entitlement and superiority, all of which was granted largely by the happy accident of the crash of a Vibranium meteorite which none of the population had any control over, racism?

    robosagogo on
  • O.C.O.C. Registered User
    edited February 2007
    Sentry, that is at least a big part why I am so into the Black Panther character. Not because I am a militant African American, but because it is refreshing to see an African depicted in a way that presents him more than just the token black team member. Its the reason why I LOVED New Avengers 22 and its characterization of Luke Cage, which incendently I didn't like how the characterized him in Black Panther. Go figure. lol And ya know you are right when you diminish fan favorites to pump another character there will be a backlash. My point is that cant we all simply agree to disagree about the character? Some like him some dont like him, we each have our reasons. But these strong anti panther reactions bother me, when they pop up so suddenly like in the civil war discussion.

    O.C. on
    who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worth cause; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement; and who at the worst if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat. -- Theodore Roosevelt
  • O.C.O.C. Registered User
    edited February 2007
    Maybe I am wrong, but I could have sworn i implied that the self interest of the free market applies to a society as a whole . Not just those already in power. If that wasnt clear, then I am sorry about that. Moving on, self interest in the free market at least in theory does apply to everyone. ( absent charitable donations which even then have a tax write off application and other minute exceptions) Holding all other factors constant.

    As for the first one, hell perhaps you are right about the all of Africa thing, I havent really had a chance to go back and read it in a while.

    See that , one side says something, other side replies, considers the other side and doenst let it decay into a flame war.

    O.C. on
    who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worth cause; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement; and who at the worst if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat. -- Theodore Roosevelt
  • ArthArth Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    wwtMask wrote: »
    Is it me or are they hyping the next issue as if Black Panther is going to fight Silver Surfer? How the heck can you fuck with the Power Cosmic and not get yourself handed on a silver platter?

    You're thinking of Fantastic Four #546. And that's a question for Dwayne McDuffie. I'd like to think that T'Challa wouldn't fight Silver Surfer unless it was desparate.

    Actually, it's based of an idiotic comment from the main BP comic that T'Challa inexplicably has a contingency plan for Galactus.

    For Galactus.

    No entity had ever challenged Galactus before Reed Richards, and Richards only succeeded because the Watcher broke his oath and told Richards about the Ultimate Nullifier. Given that we now know that the UN is actually a part of Galactus - and has now been re-absorbed - what could T'Challa's plan possibly be?

    It's just stupid. It's awful writing. The only "contingency plan" for Galactus is to get the hell out of dodge and find a new planet.

    To be fair, that could be the contingency plan. I know MY contingency plan for Galactus is 'run the fuck away'. And maybe 'throw school children in his path'. You know, in case maybe he's weak against school children.

    Arth on
    Artheleron.png
  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Artheleron wrote: »
    To be fair, that could be the contingency plan. I know MY contingency plan for Galactus is 'run the fuck away'. And maybe 'throw school children in his path'. You know, in case maybe he's weak against school children.

    I know you're joking (and stealing my idea about the children), but realistically that's not a contingency plan.

    A contingency plan is "how am I going to win when X happens?" What you've described is an escape plan. For a super-hyper-mega advanced species, whoops I mean small country, like Wakanda, flying the entire country into space (along with that fortunate Vibranium meteor) should be trivial.

    Actually, why hasn't he floated Wakanda the same way Cable floated his island? Wouldn't that mean he could pull an Asgard and enforce his ethics better? He'd be able to avoid having to lay traps everywhere to kill Africans who hope to join Wakanda (which they do now), and instead he could just give a nice ol' "Peace out!" to the poor suffering starving people he keeps locked outside.

    I'm about as far from a socialist as you can get, but I struggle to see why Black Panther is a good person in some people's eyes. We've established he's a bigot, we've established he's unwilling to even educate outsiders, much less give them the cures he's got, we've established he is (or at least was until very recently) highly misogynist. After that we've got simpler stuff, like his apparent willingness to fix Africa only in HoM and not the real world, not to mention his apparent habit of keeping his wife under his thumb (since it's implausible that Storm wouldn't want to be sharing all these cures).

    What about this guy is good?

    mattharvest on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    robosagogo wrote: »
    Every issue of Exiles and What If? has managed to succinctly explain the diversion that took place and led to the important differences seen in whatever version of the Marvel Universe is being explored. Minor costume changes and other similarly unimportant details are left to the imagination, but the key differences such as someone being the savior of an entire nation are always properly justified.

    Hell, look at the HoM tie-ins written by everybody else. Spider-Man is a celebrity because he pretended to be a mutant. Captain America is an old guy because he didn't spend all that time on ice. The changes in the status of these characters was far more drastic, and yet somehow the character who underwent the least of changes is also given the least explanation as to how he got to where he is (actually, no explanation is given).

    Almost all the tie-ins had at least 3 or 4 issues to do some explaining. The "What If?" here is "What if Hudlin had the same amount of issues to tell his HoM story?" He didn't, nor did he have Uatu or some other fourth wall breaking device to fill us in. He told the story he wanted to tell in the time he had to tell it and we just have to accept that some things happened that we're not privvy to that made things the way they are. He didn't tell every detail, but that doesn't make it retarded, unless your contention is that everything should conform to your opinion.
    Muffin's version isn't necessarily better, but at least it's an attempt to play along with the rest of the Marvel Universe and the intent of HoM. It goes without saying that it beats Hudlin's version, which as I said, makes no sense whatsoever when it shows Black Panther doing things he presently has no desire to do in spite of opposition that should prevent him from accomplishing as much.

    I don't remember the HoM being all about humans being completely downtrodden. What exactly is so interesting about that idea that makes the idea of a prominent and influential human defying the HoM is so terrible in comparison?
    And on top of that, at least one character is made into Black Panther's whore for no reason and a villain twice as experienced and just as strong as Black Panther is decapitated in short order even though Wolverine and others have never had such an easy time with the guy.

    You mean to say "for no reason that we are made aware of". Draw your own conclusion as to why that was the way it was, unless you insist on all writers spoonfeeding you every single thing. As for the death of Sabretooth, it's my understanding that he wasn't running on all cylinders during that confrontation, so to speak.

    And, for the record, in HoM, Storm and T'Challa have been married for some time, whereas here, they've barely been married a few months. It shouldn't be hard to believe that Storm would eventually convince T'Challa to use all of that knowledge to help outsiders. She's supposed to be so strong and independent and assertive, right? That's what you guys keep saying to justify the anti-BP/Storm attitude. So why can't she use those same traits to convince T'Challa to do the right thing in that case?

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User
    edited February 2007
    O.C. wrote: »
    Maybe I am wrong, but I could have sworn i implied that the self interest of the free market applies to a society as a whole . Not just those already in power. If that wasnt clear, then I am sorry about that. Moving on, self interest in the free market at least in theory does apply to everyone. ( absent charitable donations which even then have a tax write off application and other minute exceptions) Holding all other factors constant.

    As for the first one, hell perhaps you are right about the all of Africa thing, I havent really had a chance to go back and read it in a while.

    See that , one side says something, other side replies, considers the other side and doenst let it decay into a flame war.

    I don't think the ability to pervert a panacea by turning it into something that is half as effective and twice as profitable applies to the majority of people since we don't hold positions of power and, for the most part, are just doing our jobs, hoping we don't die soon, and harboring no evil ambitions along the way because we just don't hold that kind of power.

    Kids, at the very least, are far too undeveloped intellectually to have their actions be affected by the free market.

    Besides, Black Panther could probably just widely distribute the cancer cure in secret if he wanted to. Even if he didn't manage to save every life in the process, he'd still save some lives. Saving lives is still what superheroes do, right?

    robosagogo on
  • ArthArth Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Artheleron wrote: »
    To be fair, that could be the contingency plan. I know MY contingency plan for Galactus is 'run the fuck away'. And maybe 'throw school children in his path'. You know, in case maybe he's weak against school children.

    I know you're joking (and stealing my idea about the children), but realistically that's not a contingency plan.

    A contingency plan is "how am I going to win when X happens?" What you've described is an escape plan. For a super-hyper-mega advanced species, whoops I mean small country, like Wakanda, flying the entire country into space (along with that fortunate Vibranium meteor) should be trivial.

    Actually, why hasn't he floated Wakanda the same way Cable floated his island? Wouldn't that mean he could pull an Asgard and enforce his ethics better? He'd be able to avoid having to lay traps everywhere to kill Africans who hope to join Wakanda (which they do now), and instead he could just give a nice ol' "Peace out!" to the poor suffering starving people he keeps locked outside.

    I'm about as far from a socialist as you can get, but I struggle to see why Black Panther is a good person in some people's eyes. We've established he's a bigot, we've established he's unwilling to even educate outsiders, much less give them the cures he's got, we've established he is (or at least was until very recently) highly misogynist. After that we've got simpler stuff, like his apparent willingness to fix Africa only in HoM and not the real world, not to mention his apparent habit of keeping his wife under his thumb (since it's implausible that Storm wouldn't want to be sharing all these cures).

    What about this guy is good?

    ....He has a hot wife he must have hypnotized to remove all remnants of her previous independant and strong-willed personality?

    I've got nothin'.

    Arth on
    Artheleron.png
  • O.C.O.C. Registered User
    edited February 2007
    lol I honestly would love to keep responding back and forth but I have to get a few things done today, I feel to respond further and not put the time it deserves into it would be wrong, so I will respond to all this either later today or Monday. Fracking school even on my days off I am busy as hell. oh well IMPERIUS REX lol

    O.C. on
    who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worth cause; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement; and who at the worst if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat. -- Theodore Roosevelt
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Artheleron wrote: »
    To be fair, that could be the contingency plan. I know MY contingency plan for Galactus is 'run the fuck away'. And maybe 'throw school children in his path'. You know, in case maybe he's weak against school children.

    I know you're joking (and stealing my idea about the children), but realistically that's not a contingency plan.

    A contingency plan is "how am I going to win when X happens?" What you've described is an escape plan. For a super-hyper-mega advanced species, whoops I mean small country, like Wakanda, flying the entire country into space (along with that fortunate Vibranium meteor) should be trivial.

    Wrong. An escape plan is just as much a contingency plan as a "How to bitch slap Galactus" plan. A contingency plan is a plan of action to follow in case a certain condition is met. Pulling a fire alarm and quickly exiting a building is a contingency plan for when a fire breaks out. Thus the bitching about the barely mentioned contingency plan smacks of either retardedness or willful ignorance, since you barely seem to understand what a contingency plan is in the first place AND you're bitching about a plan that you know nothing about. For all you know, it could be "Call Sentry on his cell phone and ask him to go slap Galactus around a bit."
    Actually, why hasn't he floated Wakanda the same way Cable floated his island? Wouldn't that mean he could pull an Asgard and enforce his ethics better? He'd be able to avoid having to lay traps everywhere to kill Africans who hope to join Wakanda (which they do now), and instead he could just give a nice ol' "Peace out!" to the poor suffering starving people he keeps locked outside.

    I'm about as far from a socialist as you can get, but I struggle to see why Black Panther is a good person in some people's eyes. We've established he's a bigot, we've established he's unwilling to even educate outsiders, much less give them the cures he's got, we've established he is (or at least was until very recently) highly misogynist. After that we've got simpler stuff, like his apparent willingness to fix Africa only in HoM and not the real world, not to mention his apparent habit of keeping his wife under his thumb (since it's implausible that Storm wouldn't want to be sharing all these cures).

    What about this guy is good?

    We've established him as a bigot? Please share the justification for that. How does not sharing the knowledge of his people make him a bad guy? Again, who appointed him the solver of all the world's problems? And as the king, who does he have more of a moral obligation to, his country or the rest of the world?

    Furthermore, you're bitching about shit you don't know about a BP from an alternate reality and then applying the resultant hate to the 616 BP. Cognitive dissonance barely begins to describe this situation.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User
    edited February 2007
    wwtMask wrote: »

    Almost all the tie-ins had at least 3 or 4 issues to do some explaining. The "What If?" here is "What if Hudlin had the same amount of issues to tell his HoM story?" He didn't, nor did he have Uatu or some other fourth wall breaking device to fill us in. He told the story he wanted to tell in the time he had to tell it and we just have to accept that some things happened that we're not privvy to that made things the way they are. He didn't tell every detail, but that doesn't make it retarded, unless your contention is that everything should conform to your opinion.

    But not all the tie-ins had 3 or 4 issues to do some explaining, and usually (or always) the explaining was limited to a brief section in the first issue. Also, the more recent incarnation of What If? (the series, not the one-shots) didn't even have Uata narrating and managed to explain away any variations in the universe within the story itself without even resorting to an aside.

    Rather than exploring a new facet of T'Challa that won't necessarily ever be seen because being King will always be part of the character's history, Hudlin wasted the opportunity and instead had Black Panther be more awesome than usual by having him kill one powerful X-Men villain without any trouble and coordinate a defense that teachingled to the death of the nearly unstoppable Apocalypse and the defeat of several beloved (now bigoted and petty) X-Men. This alone should show where Hudlin's interests lie. He doesn't care about depth or even educating readers on the status of Africa's numerous nations and the ever-present issue of racism. Instead, his idea of a progressive character is someone who can do anything the writer wants him to do without regard for history and logic, and often at the expense of other popular characters who always end up looking worse following their appearance in the BP book.
    I don't remember the HoM being all about humans being completely downtrodden. What exactly is so interesting about that idea that makes the idea of a prominent and influential human defying the HoM is so terrible in comparison?

    I don't remember saying that that was what HoM was about either.

    In fact, my idea for an HoM issue of Black Panther would have involved T'Challa reclaiming rule of Wakanda for his bloodline (after spending time in hiding in America) from a mutant usurper who seized power after T'Chaka's death by beating T'Challa's uncle, all the while hearkening to the civil rights movement and the obvious parallels between claims of mutant superiority and past claims of white superiority. It's the kind of story that would have focused on the character's drive and spirit even without the resources that seem to make him unstoppable, and literally cannot be told due to the unchangeable history of Black Panther which has T'Challa becoming King without a hitch and gives him little to no connection to race politics in America since he didn't spend his formative years there.
    You mean to say "for no reason that we are made aware of". Draw your own conclusion as to why that was the way it was, unless you insist on all writers spoonfeeding you every single thing. As for the death of Sabretooth, it's my understanding that he wasn't running on all cylinders during that confrontation, so to speak.

    And, for the record, in HoM, Storm and T'Challa have been married for some time, whereas here, they've barely been married a few months. It shouldn't be hard to believe that Storm would eventually convince T'Challa to use all of that knowledge to help outsiders. She's supposed to be so strong and independent and assertive, right? That's what you guys keep saying to justify the anti-BP/Storm attitude. So why can't she use those same traits to convince T'Challa to do the right thing in that case?

    JESUS!

    Are you saying there could possibly be SOME legitimate reason for a female superhero to be reduced to the position of T'Challa's sexual plaything, as if that wasn't one of the most offensive things you could do to a character? I don't need to be spoon fed the justification because I know that there is no reasonable justification.

    It's ridiculous and demeaning, and that's all there is to it. Even if Hudlin could have pointed to a specific instance in Shanna's history where mutant rule would have somehow led to her becoming a whore, it wouldn't change the fact that Hudlin consciously decided to take a character he probably didn't care about and transform her into a jealous, cat fighting sex toy.



    And for all this time, the only reason T'Challa hasn't saved Africa is because Storm hasn't told him to? That paints T'Challa in such a negative light, as a selfish idiot who'll only see reason if it's offered to him by a beautiful wife, that it more than negates any awesome moves he could pull with a sword. If that really was the explanation Hudlin had in mind when he wrote the HoM issue, then he must hate the character on some level.

    Which I suppose makes sense, because in writing Black Panther he's given people who love the character cause to complain about a long-awaited title starring that very hero. He's destroying black superheroes from the inside!

    robosagogo on
  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User
    edited February 2007
    We've established him as a bigot? Please share the justification for that. How does not sharing the knowledge of his people make him a bad guy? Again, who appointed him the solver of all the world's problems? And as the king, who does he have more of a moral obligation to, his country or the rest of the world?

    Furthermore, you're bitching about shit you don't know about a BP from an alternate reality and then applying the resultant hate to the 616 BP. Cognitive dissonance barely begins to describe this situation.

    He's not a bigot for not sharing. Rather, he's a racist for thinking Wakandans deserve this technology more purely because they are Wakandans.

    Remember the big, muscular jackass who tried to take the throne from T'Challa's uncle immediately before T'Challa appeared in the ring with a mask on to seize the title for himself?

    Remember Erik Killmonger, one of Black Panther's villains and a native of Wakanda himself?

    Both the characters are painted in a negative light and, at least in the second case, are downright evil bastards. They also stand as proof that Wakanda turns out unenlightened, wretched folks just like the rest of the world.

    And yet, the people of Wakanda are somehow more deserving of the cures and conveniences they deny the rest of the world. For all of Panther's talk of "spiritual development" and evils seemingly exclusive to the Western world like greed and specifically concern over profit, nothing has been shown to explain why Wakanda is better and why, consequently, the average Wakandan deserves a longer lifespan.

    Hell, the king of Wakanda is apparently both a condescending, domineering dick and not above keeping a bevy of sex servants, and he's supposed to be the greatest of them all.



    Seeing superiority in your race when none is evident is racism. Black Panther has, unfortunately, become a racist under Hudlin's watch even though he could have easily come up with some other reason for Wakanda to remain isolated.

    robosagogo on
  • LRGLRG Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    wwtMask wrote: »
    Thanks for the support, OC. We'll change these guys' minds yet. :D
    LRG wrote: »
    Hudlin's run has been retcon after retcon and readily falls back on events. Klaw got all kinds of fucked up in ways that didn't gel with continunity, and originally he killed T'Chaka on Wakandan land, so that is at least one Loss for Wakanda.

    Um...he killed the King either way, so it still seems like a loss to me. That retcon doesn't bother me too much because the primary ideas were still communicated. The details that were changed weren't so important that the story was significantly different.
    Then The book went right for a damn House of M tie-in, which is lame and directly led into BP and Storm getting married.

    I take exception to this. Not only was BP leader of a united Africa, but it was also one of the few human friendly places on earth and it was in a cold war with the HoM. Further, T'Challa not only took out Sabretooth, but he also managed to lure Apocalypse into a trap to get obliterated by Black Bolt. Even the stuff with Pietro and the friction between Storm and BP was cool. I know it's your opinion, but I thought that issue was pretty damn good.
    Look, I would be all for T'Challa and Storm getting married, but it was so rushed and forced. It stikes me like Hudlin thought the character wasn't cool or good enough on his own without Storm to raise his popularity or something.

    Repeated for the umpteenth time: the Storm/BP marriage was intended prior to the end of vol. 3 and, as far as I remember, Hudlin talked with Priest about it a bit before running with it. Yes, it was a big event and a bit of a gimmick. Yes, it was rushed. Im sure race had something to do with it even. But both Hudlin and Priest wanted to go in that direction and the editors thought it was a good idea. It was and still is and, given a chance, it will continue to be. But if you're going to constantly discount every retcon, I can see why you'd have a problem with this and a hundred other stories that are predicated on prior retcons.
    On the matter, I think T'Challa is at least as smart as Tony Stark and has too be ten times as rich.

    I'm pretty sure Tony's smarter, but it's cool that you think so highly of T'Challa.
    And the last two issues has had some horrible art.

    Yeah, they had like 4 pencilers on that issue, so the quality varied quite a bit. I can't wait till they get a regular artist and drop the fill-ins.
    Outside of Hudlin's BP, I think it would been cool as hell if T'Challa had stayed in the Illuminati.

    I wanted that at first as well, but it looks like opting out of the Illuminati will keep him on the right side of this World War Hulk. The Illuminati is so fucked.
    Also, let's think guys, why would Panther even fight Silver Surfer, much less go toe-to-toe with him?

    Should make for a good yarn.

    I'm curious about this too. With all the love that McDuffie gets, and the fact that I liked his first issue of FF, I'm really looking forward to finding out.

    I just responded to all this, but the post didn't take so FUCK

    basically, Klaw had history in the marvel U and there was no good reason to change his character so much or even retell Panthers orgin

    Starting off a book of an established character with pointless retcons and going straight into an event tie-in is not a good look, imo

    Priest may have planned for the marraige but did he even get to set it up? Hudlin rushed in it and it felt forced and why can't the character go a year before he changes him damn near forever

    I'll finish later

    LRG on
  • DasUberEdwardDasUberEdward Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Not racist. Nationalistic. Which can easily be constrewed as racism and is without a doubt just as silly. So many nations are nationalistic though, you don't see any of the top 5 nations dumping vaccine on third world country, so let's not complain about a fictional one being just like the real ones.

    DasUberEdward on
  • LRGLRG Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    shit man I could fucking edit the other day what the fuck


    To me, Hudlin's run has more good than bad, but it definitly hasn't been all bad, some pretty cool shit has happend, but so many bad moves have been made, the most recent being the art for the last two issues. Really, how do you go from Romita JR to that?

    LRG on
Sign In or Register to comment.