And that's a perfectly valid way to write T'Challa (as a fantasy character, not as a shitty character devoid of flaws), but it doesn't exactly make him the minority hero we've all been waiting for who, unlike others who have come before him, actually speaks to the experiences and feelings of the group he or she represents while possessing universal appeal as well.
If I was a young black kid, which I am most assuredly not, hell yes I would want to read about some fantastic African superking who's tougher, cooler, and smarter than all the white superheroes.
And that's a perfectly valid way to write T'Challa (as a fantasy character, not as a shitty character devoid of flaws), but it doesn't exactly make him the minority hero we've all been waiting for who, unlike others who have come before him, actually speaks to the experiences and feelings of the group he or she represents while possessing universal appeal as well.
If I was a young black kid, which I am most assuredly not, hell yes I would want to read about some fantastic African superking who's tougher, cooler, and smarter than all the white superheroes.
That's probably true, but Black Panther isn't exactly an all ages titles and the current readership for comic books is largely adult. Hudlin's writing for people our age, not our illegitimate Senior Prom contraceptive mishap children.
And Supreme Power's Nighthawk was already a perfectly good tough, cool, smart African superhero who regularly made white heroes his bitch. And oh yeah, he was also a complex character with a thought provoking philosophy deeply rooted in a mistrust of white (namely American) rule.
And he was well written, and didn't thrive on media attention and "big events".
To me, the only impressive thing Hudlin has done is managing to grab a greater readership than his predecessors or writers of similar characters despite putting out an inferior product.
If I was a young black kid, which I am most assuredly not, hell yes I would want to read about some fantastic African superking who's tougher, cooler, and smarter than all the white superheroes.
Really though? Because in general (as I said) the industry has found that people don't want to read about totally perfectly awsome guys. They want someone to whom they can relate. For example: Nerds loved Spider-man because he was basically just like them, under the mask. The Spider-man take on super heroism has been the over-riding trend for so long that its hard to see BP as anything other than a throwback.
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RingoHe/Hima distinct lack of substanceRegistered Userregular
edited February 2007
I'd just like to throw out an opinion about the whole HoM/BP thing. The original plot point of HoM is that everybody (Marvel characters anyway) gets what they want. Parker's with Gwen and popular, Cap got to live in his own time, Wolvie remembers everything, etc etc...
So who's to say that what the BP secretly desires isn't to be able to open Wakanda to all of Africa and lead them into a better tommorrow? While at the same time boning a bunch of superbabes in his harem? (And who's to say that they didn't "wish" to be with DreamyMcKingly BP?) It's only once they tried to sew all these wishes together that you get the fucked up universe of HoM. Anything that happened in BP can in no way be as bad as what happened to Spidey in HoM. What an asshole he was.
But even still, people love Superman because he is something we can all respect. A man who could do whatever the hell he wanted, but does the right thing because he was raised better.
Even "perfect" heroes should be interesting. And even "perfect" heroes have flaws.
I'd just like to throw out an opinion about the whole HoM/BP thing. The original plot point of HoM is that everybody (Marvel characters anyway) gets what they want. Parker's with Gwen and popular, Cap got to live in his own time, Wolvie remembers everything, etc etc...
So who's to say that what the BP secretly desires isn't to be able to open Wakanda to all of Africa and lead them into a better tommorrow? While at the same time boning a bunch of superbabes in his harem? (And who's to say that they didn't "wish" to be with DreamyMcKingly BP?) It's only once they tried to sew all these wishes together that you get the fucked up universe of HoM. Anything that happened in BP can in no way be as bad as what happened to Spidey in HoM. What an asshole he was.
Soo.... Hawkeye and Luke Cage and the rest wished to be an oppressed minorty leading an underground rebellion?
I think somewhere you might have missed the point of HoM... it wasn't that everyone got their wish, it was that Mutants were the majority and regular people were the oppressed ones.
I think one of the key differences between Superman and Black Panther is the use of outside characters... frankly, Superman is boring unless he's interacting with Batman or Wonder Woman or whomever... but when he does interact with other characters, they end up looking better. With Black Panther, the other characters seem to end up looking worse.
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wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
but really, am i the only white guy who likes bp right now?
If these forums are any indication, I'd say you're one of the few. I'd say you're the only one, but I know of a few on the Hudlin Entertainment forums, CBR, and Newsarama.
I like this thread because it is very much like a Debate and Discourse thread on religion, abortion, or evolution...
No ones minds are changed and many feelings are hurt.
Yeah, pretty much, sans the hurt feelings. I don't care that much, and neither should any of you. From all the criticism I've seen online about this run of BP, I'm pretty convinced that nothing Hudlin does will satisfy his naysayers. What's worse, all of the legitimate criticisms are getting lost among the unjustified charges of racism and misogyny. If I were Hudlin and people were calling me a racist and misogynist, I'd be pretty damn defensive too, and I'd be much less receptive to criticism from people making these accusations.
What's worse, all of the legitimate criticisms are getting lost among the unjustified charges of racism and misogyny.
If you think reducing two of the few black, female leaders in all of comics to taking orders from Black Panther and turning another strong female character into Black Panther's whore in an alternate universe isn't evidence of misogyny, then what would fall under the heading for you?
Does Black Panther have to actually smack Storm across the face?
What's worse, all of the legitimate criticisms are getting lost among the unjustified charges of racism and misogyny.
If you think reducing two of the few black, female leaders in all of comics to taking orders from Black Panther and turning another strong female character into Black Panther's whore in an alternate universe isn't evidence of misogyny, then what would fall under the heading for you?
Does Black Panther have to actually smack Storm across the face?
Yeah, I'd say racism is a harder sell, but the misogyny is almost BP's defining characteristic... it won't be long before Hank Pym is gonna have to sit him down for a talking to...
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wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
What's worse, all of the legitimate criticisms are getting lost among the unjustified charges of racism and misogyny.
If you think reducing two of the few black, female leaders in all of comics to taking orders from Black Panther and turning another strong female character into Black Panther's whore in an alternate universe isn't evidence of misogyny, then what would fall under the heading for you?
Does Black Panther have to actually smack Storm across the face?
The problem with your conclusion here is three-fold. First, you assume that following the direction of BP somehow diminishes Monica and Storm. It has and continues to be shown that BP is a well respected voice in the superhero community. Is it really so hard to believe that these women could not only hold the same opinion, but would also not be bothered by listening to him in those specific situations? Or that he was asking them to do things as a partner and an equal.
Second, you assume that these women should be so intractible and headstrong that they can't function in any role except as the leader. This borders on the same misogynistic thinking you accuse Hudlin of. Since they've shown themselves to be so strong and forceful, obviously they can't be anything else, ever.
Oh, and BP was a member of the Avengers and of Cap's Secret Avengers, but he wasn't the leader. Did that somehow make him lesser? Since he's so strong and used to being in charge (he's a king, after all), shouldn't he have put his foot down and demanded to be in charge? He managed to work in both organizations as a follower but, for some reason, you guys can't imagine these women doing the same.
Third, you assume that T'Challa is motivated by his disdain for women to say what he did during the Doom fight. If anything, he's more at fault for being too proud to let his wife finish the fight for him. In my opinion, it was a matter of pride that he face Doom alone, especially considering the history between them. Storm did not seem to understand this initially, which was why she tried to interfere. T'Challa made it quite clear that he wanted to face Doom alone. It is funny to see that all other interactions between the couple, as numerous and decidedly not misogynistic as they are, are ignored in favor of this situation which, in my opinion, is being willfully misinterpreted.
Your first point is completely illogical because nobody is arguing that it's bad for T'Challa to give advice to anyone, be they female or otherwise.
What people take issue with is the fact that Monica and Storm have been portrayed as being completely helpless without the direction of T'Challa. For instance, T'Challa chastising Monica for not using her powers properly is retarded, because Monica has time and again, over the course of several decades, been shown to be incredibly, INCREDIBLY creative with her abilities, probably doing more with them than what BP would think of doing if he had them.
Example: She beat Kyle Rayner in JLA/Avengers by simply adjusting her own wavelength to that of the GL ring. She did this in no time flat and sucked Kyle's ring completely dry of power. Other instances of her using her power creatively are basically the entirety of Nextwave.
The fact that she wouldn't show similar creativity when fighting a bunch of fucking vampires of all things is simply some of the worst writing imaginable. What Hudlin is doing is taking previous characterisations of established characters, notably females, and completely discarding those characterisations in order to portray them as being compeltely inferior and subservient to the great and mighty, infallible Black Panther, super-king of the greatest, most technologyically avanced nation on earth (if you do as Hudlin wants and ignore the billion or so secret societies that make Wakanda look like babies banging rocks together).
The problem with your conclusion here is three-fold. First, you assume that following the direction of BP somehow diminishes Monica and Storm. It has and continues to be shown that BP is a well respected voice in the superhero community. Is it really so hard to believe that these women could not only hold the same opinion, but would also not be bothered by listening to him in those specific situations? Or that he was asking them to do things as a partner and an equal.
A character certainly can follow directions without losing any of their grandeur, and respectability. This can only happen, however, when the writer allows the character to retain their strengths even as they choose to become subordinate to someone else who, presumably, happens to have a better plan at this moment.
Hudlin, unfortunately, doesn't do this. In the case of Monica Rambeua, the former Captain Marvel loses every strength she ever possessed beyond a knowledge of her most basic superhuman abilities. Storm, meanwhile, has lost all her creativity, tactical brilliance, and strength of will even though working under Panther's orders would not preclude her from displaying any of these skills. Instead, her actions are almost exclusively limited to her most basic abilities (zapping stuff!) and whatever Panther considers appropriate at that moment.
Second, you assume that these women should be so intractible and headstrong that they can't function in any role except as the leader. This borders on the same misogynistic thinking you accuse Hudlin of. Since they've shown themselves to be so strong and forceful, obviously they can't be anything else, ever.
Oh, and BP was a member of the Avengers and of Cap's Secret Avengers, but he wasn't the leader. Did that somehow make him lesser? Since he's so strong and used to being in charge (he's a king, after all), shouldn't he have put his foot down and demanded to be in charge? He managed to work in both organizations as a follower but, for some reason, you guys can't imagine these women doing the same.
No, I don't assume they should be stubborn asses as putting these characters solely in leadership positions isn't the only way to honor them.
Look at Panther's part in the Secret Avengers. He isn't the leader, but he's a valuable member. He spars with Captain America and wins. His resources are integral to goals of the group. He devises the plan to escapefrom the Negative Zone Prison after breaking in.
Now look at Monica who functions as little more than a tool for Black Panther in the Black Avengers arc. Her sole contribution comes from her powers, and apparently Hudlin couldn't give her enough credit to come up with using her abilities in that way completely on her own.
Like I said before, choosing to act as someone else's subordinate doesn't have to mean a diminishment of your character so long as you are allowed to shine in other ways or, at the very least, find a way to contribute that doesn't just involve hitting people with your abilities in the most obvious way imagineable.
Third, you assume that T'Challa is motivated by his disdain for women to say what he did during the Doom fight. If anything, he's more at fault for being too proud to let his wife finish the fight for him. In my opinion, it was a matter of pride that he face Doom alone, especially considering the history between them. Storm did not seem to understand this initially, which was why she tried to interfere. T'Challa made it quite clear that he wanted to face Doom alone. It is funny to see that all other interactions between the couple, as numerous and decidedly not misogynistic as they are, are ignored in favor of this situation which, in my opinion, is being willfully misinterpreted.
Doom and T'Challa have history? The way I remember things, it was actually Storm and the X-Men who had history with Doom according to the people monitoring the Wakandan couple's voyage to Latveria.
And T'Challa's actions will never be motivated by misogyny because, for that to be true, Hudlin would have to indicate that T'Challa doesn't respect women. When we call Black Panther (the title) misogynistic, at best we're calling Hudlin misogynistic. Not knowing the man personally, however, it's far more likely that we're just saying that the story reads as misogynistic, regardless of whether or not that was Hudlin's intent.
If you can think of an interaction between Panther and Storm that suggests an equal partnership and mutual respect between the two (and isn't just words which, like the promise of Storm becoming an internationally known proponent of human and mutant relations, have yet to be followed by actions, then by all means share.
Its weird I have always viewed the way he treated woman in the 616 universe to be very respectful. I didnt see him talking to Monica Rambeau as being disrespectful, more as him taking charge. While I defentely understand why it can be viewed as taking away from other characters, I suppose it just doesn't really come across to me. I especially viewed his interactions with Storm OVERALL to be very respectful. Its just the feeling I got from reading it. I am sure specific instantces can be pointed to, which would detract from it. I think the way I accept the view of black characters towards the black panther is how Luke Cage admires him. When in an issue they went through the history of the time when he was imprisoned and used the Black panther as a source of hope to keep him going, it made perfect since.
On another subject , if the character truly viewed himself as being so infallible, why did he specifically tell the little boy after the mine accident that he is not a God and that the little boy was capable of the same actions?
Just a question, but would there honestly be the same issues if Batman when he is at the height of his awesomeness and he does get quite awesome ( punching out guy gardener just one example) was Black?
O.C. on
who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worth cause; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement; and who at the worst if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat. -- Theodore Roosevelt
Its weird I have always viewed the way he treated woman in the 616 universe to be very respectful. I didnt see him talking to Monica Rambeau as being disrespectful, more as him taking charge. While I defentely understand why it can be viewed as taking away from other characters, I suppose it just doesn't really come across to me. I especially viewed his interactions with Storm OVERALL to be very respectful. Its just the feeling I got from reading it. I am sure specific instantces can be pointed to, which would detract from it. I think the way I accept the view of black characters towards the black panther is how Luke Cage admires him. When in an issue they went through the history of the time when he was imprisoned and used the Black panther as a source of hope to keep him going, it made perfect since.
On another subject , if the character truly viewed himself as being so infallible, why did he specifically tell the little boy after the mine accident that he is not a God and that the little boy was capable of the same actions?
Just a question, but would there honestly be the same issues if Batman when he is at the height of his awesomeness and he does get quite awesome ( punching out guy gardener just one example) was Black?
Hudlin, not Black Panther, is being disrespectful to the characters. Hudlin, not Black Panther, is treating Black Panther as infallible. Hudlin made Monica Rambeau forget how to use her powers effectively and gave her confidence issues, effectively creating a character Black Panther had to talk down to and, since the situation called for condescension, we have no choice but to read Panther's actions as completely correct.
Within the context of the stories, there is nothing to indicate Black Panther is acting inappropriately because he's always right, he always wins, and nobody reasonable ever objects to his actions. It is only through reading the story with earlier stories in mind (stories that show a strong Monica, and a Sonja who isn't a whore) and by critiquing the writer rather than his character (judging the book from outside the book) that we can actually judge this book.
Yes. If you look at the superhero tournament that was held in this forum, you'll see endless complaints about how Batman is treated as unstoppable. That was in spite of the fact that Batman makes mistakes and is frequently written as a deeply flawed characters, qualities that currently cannot be attributed to this version of Black Panther and therefore make him worse than Batman.
One-punching Gardner hardly calls for complaints, however, when Gardner wasn't fighting with his ring and doesn't have the same martial training Batman has.
Well, my thing is that I dont judge a book so much by its writer as its character. While Black Panther is defenitely arrogant, as was nodded to when he crossed over with the X-Men , when said by Rouge. I just like that he is so sure about his stature and position. Like when Iron Man told him to not concern himself with business that doesn't involve him and he shot back that his war had no place there ( this was when he was trying to make peace between the two sides in the wedding issue).
As far as Batman, I definitely see the complaints, but I don't see complaints about writers that make him so powerful, and I dont see people wondering about the motivations behind making Batman more powerful.
And who knows maybe Hudlin is writing the character to where his arrogance will be his deep flaw, which would be awesome. Maybe he will write a story where someone brings Wakanda to its knees using Black Panther's arrogance. Just give the writer a little time.
I guess my point is that I don't understand why it is such a personal issue.
O.C. on
who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worth cause; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement; and who at the worst if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat. -- Theodore Roosevelt
Well, my thing is that I dont judge a book so much by its writer as its character. While Black Panther is defenitely arrogant, as was nodded to when he crossed over with the X-Men , when said by Rouge. I just like that he is so sure about his stature and position. Like when Iron Man told him to not concern himself with business that doesn't involve him and he shot back that his war had no place there ( this was when he was trying to make peace between the two sides in the wedding issue).
As far as Batman, I definitely see the complaints, but I don't see complaints about writers that make him so powerful, and I dont see people wondering about the motivations behind making Batman more powerful.
And who knows maybe Hudlin is writing the character to where his arrogance will be his deep flaw, which would be awesome. Maybe he will write a story where someone brings Wakanda to its knees using Black Panther's arrogance. Just give the writer a little time.
I guess my point is that I don't understand why it is such a personal issue.
Like I said, it's not really arrogance if the writer ensures that everything you say and do is perfectly justified. That's why you can't see anything wrong with the character so long as you are only judging the character, as if T'Challa was a real person, and using nothing but the information immediately available to you through the comic to inform your opinion. Hudlin doesn't want you to see that anything is wrong, so he won't let you.
In regards to Batman, there is no one writer who has essentially given Batman the capability to accomplish anything given time to prepare, and so there is no writer who can be explicitly targeted for criticism for the direction of the character. Many on here have lamented The Dark Returns, however, for influencing future stories and turning Batman into an unrelenting hardass who can always beat Superman and turning Superman into a stooge of the American government.
For arrogance to be T'Challa's flaw, people would have to stop thanking him for it. It's also been nearly two years since Hudlin started writing Panther, so I think he's been given more than enough time to introduce any kind of foible to the Black Panther character or, at the very least, write one single good arc.
You do realize that only like, two people in this entire thread read Black Panther, right?
This whole thread is sort of one long look at why the rest of us don't read it...
edit: idiot.
Sentry on
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wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
Everyone who has an opinion on the book has to have read something from it at some point, even if the opinion is a negative one, right? I don't believe any of the people here decided to preemptively dislike Hudlin.
Reading excerpts from or a few issues of Black Panther, however, is not the same as saying you "read Black Panther" which implies that you follow the series on a monthly basis, reading the entirety of each issue as they see print.
yeah, good catch there slick. You know, you could actually read the stupid thread...
Almost everyone who has posted here has read at least some part of Hudlin's run on Black Panther, additionally, thanks to Civil War, we have seen Black Panther cross over into other areas of the Marvel U.
If you still think people can't make some type of informed judgement because they haven't read every single issue of Black Panther, then I have no clue what you're even doing in this thread.
Sentry on
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When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
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RingoHe/Hima distinct lack of substanceRegistered Userregular
I'd just like to throw out an opinion about the whole HoM/BP thing. The original plot point of HoM is that everybody (Marvel characters anyway) gets what they want. Parker's with Gwen and popular, Cap got to live in his own time, Wolvie remembers everything, etc etc...
So who's to say that what the BP secretly desires isn't to be able to open Wakanda to all of Africa and lead them into a better tommorrow? While at the same time boning a bunch of superbabes in his harem? (And who's to say that they didn't "wish" to be with DreamyMcKingly BP?) It's only once they tried to sew all these wishes together that you get the fucked up universe of HoM. Anything that happened in BP can in no way be as bad as what happened to Spidey in HoM. What an asshole he was.
Soo.... Hawkeye and Luke Cage and the rest wished to be an oppressed minorty leading an underground rebellion?
I think somewhere you might have missed the point of HoM... it wasn't that everyone got their wish, it was that Mutants were the majority and regular people were the oppressed ones.
I think one of the key differences between Superman and Black Panther is the use of outside characters... frankly, Superman is boring unless he's interacting with Batman or Wonder Woman or whomever... but when he does interact with other characters, they end up looking better. With Black Panther, the other characters seem to end up looking worse.
The wish thing set the stage, and HoM is what happened to try and jam all those wants together. They certainly didn't bill HoM as "What if... Mutants ruled the world?" You only got to see that side of it once the actual premise was applied in the books. Mutants being the majority was the effect, not the cause.
yeah, good catch there slick. You know, you could actually read the stupid thread...
Almost everyone who has posted here has read at least some part of Hudlin's run on Black Panther, additionally, thanks to Civil War, we have seen Black Panther cross over into other areas of the Marvel U.
If you still think people can't make some type of informed judgement because they haven't read every single issue of Black Panther, then I have no clue what you're even doing in this thread.
I'm not sure what I did to piss you off dude, but uh, sorry?
I just thought, after reading this thread, and sitting through pretty much every other argument about BP, that everybody harping on the book seemed fairly well versed in it's goings-on. I mean, the first arc, House Of M, Black Avengers/Monica, visiting Namor and Dr. Doom/the Storm Wedding are all seperate arcs, right? And I've seen all of these storyarcs used in criticisms of the book in this very thread.
I assumed that if they were that knowledgeable about pretty much every story beat the book's had so far, then maybe they were reading the book?
To my understanding, the only person who had their wish granted was Pietro... everyone else was just along for the ride. For example, it is pretty clear that Spider-man did not get his wishes granted, considering the first thing he does when House of M starts is develop multiple personality disorder...
I can see why it seems like it was some kind of grand wish fulfillment, but the Scarlet Witch was remaking the world at the behest of Quicksilver, and possibly her own crazy self. It wasn't like she was playing genie to the Marvel U.
I'm not sure what I did to piss you off dude, but uh, sorry?
I just thought, after reading this thread, and sitting through pretty much every other argument about BP, that everybody harping on the book seemed fairly well versed in it's goings-on. I mean, the first arc, House Of M, Black Avengers/Monica, visiting Namor and Dr. Doom/the Storm Wedding are all seperate arcs, right? And I've seen all of these storyarcs used in criticisms of the book in this very thread.
I assumed that if they were that knowledgeable about pretty much every story beat the book's had so far, then maybe they were reading the book?
I just bothers me when people think other peoples opinions aren't valid because they haven't read the book, or come into a thread with a pretty intense discussion and try and cut it off with a "if you don't like it, don't read it." If that isn't what you were doing, I apologize, but it seems like it was.
The beauty of this thread is that we've been talking about Black Panther in almost every thread on this board, this lets us stick to just one. That is one reason everyone knows what is going on... almost everyone read the Storm/BP wedding, screen shots of the exchange with doom were posted here, and outside of that most of us have read at least one arc from the current run. But as far as I know, wwtmask and O.C. are the only ones who consistently buy the series.
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wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
I'm pretty sure the mutants were the only ones who got their wishes granted, as it's pretty clear the world was made with mutants in mind.
While it's easy to think Peter wanted to be married to Gwen and Steve never wanted to be displaced from his era, fact is that Peter loves MJ and wouldn't want to be married to someone else (as far as most writers are concerned) and Steve doesn't want to be an old soldier who never got the chance to live up to his full potential. Hank Pym also probably didn't want to be a terrorist (if his wishes were granted, he'd probably be married to Wasp again) and Tony probably didn't want to be a weird tournament fighting living in the shadow of his father.
all the characters who would have mildly interesting alternate lives got what they wished for
Well, Hawkeye got to be alive... which just shows that he lacks foresight. I would have wished to be alive, then also wished for a superpower other then being really good with a bow...
Edit: Also, why would Luke Cage wish to be some kind of weird underworld mafia don?
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When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
Your first point is completely illogical because nobody is arguing that it's bad for T'Challa to give advice to anyone, be they female or otherwise.
As a matter of fact, that's pretty much what you're saying. The contention is that somehow Storm and Monica are belittled by taking direction from T'Challa, which I say is false. If it's not "bad", why is this such a big deal that it's constantly brought up?
What people take issue with is the fact that Monica and Storm have been portrayed as being completely helpless without the direction of T'Challa.
That's interesting because, from what I read, that's not the case at all.
For instance, T'Challa chastising Monica for not using her powers properly is retarded, because Monica has time and again, over the course of several decades, been shown to be incredibly, INCREDIBLY creative with her abilities, probably doing more with them than what BP would think of doing if he had them.
Example: She beat Kyle Rayner in JLA/Avengers by simply adjusting her own wavelength to that of the GL ring. She did this in no time flat and sucked Kyle's ring completely dry of power.
Second, you throw that JLA/Avengers bit out, and it's impressive, really. If only T'Challa had read that and all the other Avengers comics, he'd be privvy to that knowledge as well! It ought to be obvious, but let me spell it out: T'Challa is saying that, in from his experiences working with her, he's only really seen her use her powers in a certain way. I suppose he's being a dick, and Hudlin a misogynist, because T'Challa just doesn't know as much about her other creative uses of her power as you do. If anything, I think it shows a lot of good about her character that, unlike how she acted in Nextwave, she doesn't bother trying to correct him and, instead, knowing that she's capable, goes out and saves the day.
Other instances of her using her power creatively are basically the entirety of Nextwave.
Here's a hint: if you want to argue with me, don't reference something that makes my point for me. T'Challa told her that he thought she was using her power like a six-shooter. Lo and behold, in Nextwave she blew up a lot of shit with light beams and such. That's extremely creative, all right.
The fact that she wouldn't show similar creativity when fighting a bunch of fucking vampires of all things is simply some of the worst writing imaginable.
Believe it or not, Monica didn't know that she was facing vampires. The most she knew (especially since the survivors' description of the vampires was pretty vague) was that some creatures were eating people. She didn't know they were vampires for sure until Black Panther talked to her.
What Hudlin is doing is taking previous characterisations of established characters, notably females, and completely discarding those characterisations in order to portray them as being compeltely inferior and subservient to the great and mighty, infallible Black Panther, super-king of the greatest, most technologyically avanced nation on earth (if you do as Hudlin wants and ignore the billion or so secret societies that make Wakanda look like babies banging rocks together).
I disagree that he's mischaracterizing and that the women act or look inferior. Also, you sound like an ass with that last little jab there. Way to turn a mostly reasonable post into semi-trolling. :v:
I'm sure there are tons of them. Everything from Attilan to Wakanda to Atlantis was "the most advanced civilization on the planet, making everyone else look like cavemen" when they were introduced and at various points afterwards.
That's why I think it's ridiculous for anyone to state that one society is the most advanced in the Marvel Universe. That matter is subject to revision, and when the technologies themselves are never examined in detail it's hardly within our abilities to make an adequate side by side comparison (What's the difference between one death ray and another?) and decide for ourselves.
In any case, all that matters in the end is that fictional nation X is better than we are, since that's the only point most writers are trying to get across.
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Bloods EndBlade of TyshallePunch dimensionRegistered Userregular
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That's probably true, but Black Panther isn't exactly an all ages titles and the current readership for comic books is largely adult. Hudlin's writing for people our age, not our illegitimate Senior Prom contraceptive mishap children.
And Supreme Power's Nighthawk was already a perfectly good tough, cool, smart African superhero who regularly made white heroes his bitch. And oh yeah, he was also a complex character with a thought provoking philosophy deeply rooted in a mistrust of white (namely American) rule.
And he was well written, and didn't thrive on media attention and "big events".
To me, the only impressive thing Hudlin has done is managing to grab a greater readership than his predecessors or writers of similar characters despite putting out an inferior product.
So who's to say that what the BP secretly desires isn't to be able to open Wakanda to all of Africa and lead them into a better tommorrow? While at the same time boning a bunch of superbabes in his harem? (And who's to say that they didn't "wish" to be with DreamyMcKingly BP?) It's only once they tried to sew all these wishes together that you get the fucked up universe of HoM. Anything that happened in BP can in no way be as bad as what happened to Spidey in HoM. What an asshole he was.
Even "perfect" heroes should be interesting. And even "perfect" heroes have flaws.
Soo.... Hawkeye and Luke Cage and the rest wished to be an oppressed minorty leading an underground rebellion?
I think somewhere you might have missed the point of HoM... it wasn't that everyone got their wish, it was that Mutants were the majority and regular people were the oppressed ones.
I think one of the key differences between Superman and Black Panther is the use of outside characters... frankly, Superman is boring unless he's interacting with Batman or Wonder Woman or whomever... but when he does interact with other characters, they end up looking better. With Black Panther, the other characters seem to end up looking worse.
If these forums are any indication, I'd say you're one of the few. I'd say you're the only one, but I know of a few on the Hudlin Entertainment forums, CBR, and Newsarama.
Yeah, pretty much, sans the hurt feelings. I don't care that much, and neither should any of you. From all the criticism I've seen online about this run of BP, I'm pretty convinced that nothing Hudlin does will satisfy his naysayers. What's worse, all of the legitimate criticisms are getting lost among the unjustified charges of racism and misogyny. If I were Hudlin and people were calling me a racist and misogynist, I'd be pretty damn defensive too, and I'd be much less receptive to criticism from people making these accusations.
If you think reducing two of the few black, female leaders in all of comics to taking orders from Black Panther and turning another strong female character into Black Panther's whore in an alternate universe isn't evidence of misogyny, then what would fall under the heading for you?
Does Black Panther have to actually smack Storm across the face?
He actually did that?
Yeah, I'd say racism is a harder sell, but the misogyny is almost BP's defining characteristic... it won't be long before Hank Pym is gonna have to sit him down for a talking to...
No, of course not, as such a scene would never see print for a large number of reasons.
Ok, I went back and reread the whole thing. I understand what you were getting at now. My bad.
The problem with your conclusion here is three-fold. First, you assume that following the direction of BP somehow diminishes Monica and Storm. It has and continues to be shown that BP is a well respected voice in the superhero community. Is it really so hard to believe that these women could not only hold the same opinion, but would also not be bothered by listening to him in those specific situations? Or that he was asking them to do things as a partner and an equal.
Second, you assume that these women should be so intractible and headstrong that they can't function in any role except as the leader. This borders on the same misogynistic thinking you accuse Hudlin of. Since they've shown themselves to be so strong and forceful, obviously they can't be anything else, ever.
Oh, and BP was a member of the Avengers and of Cap's Secret Avengers, but he wasn't the leader. Did that somehow make him lesser? Since he's so strong and used to being in charge (he's a king, after all), shouldn't he have put his foot down and demanded to be in charge? He managed to work in both organizations as a follower but, for some reason, you guys can't imagine these women doing the same.
Third, you assume that T'Challa is motivated by his disdain for women to say what he did during the Doom fight. If anything, he's more at fault for being too proud to let his wife finish the fight for him. In my opinion, it was a matter of pride that he face Doom alone, especially considering the history between them. Storm did not seem to understand this initially, which was why she tried to interfere. T'Challa made it quite clear that he wanted to face Doom alone. It is funny to see that all other interactions between the couple, as numerous and decidedly not misogynistic as they are, are ignored in favor of this situation which, in my opinion, is being willfully misinterpreted.
What people take issue with is the fact that Monica and Storm have been portrayed as being completely helpless without the direction of T'Challa. For instance, T'Challa chastising Monica for not using her powers properly is retarded, because Monica has time and again, over the course of several decades, been shown to be incredibly, INCREDIBLY creative with her abilities, probably doing more with them than what BP would think of doing if he had them.
Example: She beat Kyle Rayner in JLA/Avengers by simply adjusting her own wavelength to that of the GL ring. She did this in no time flat and sucked Kyle's ring completely dry of power. Other instances of her using her power creatively are basically the entirety of Nextwave.
The fact that she wouldn't show similar creativity when fighting a bunch of fucking vampires of all things is simply some of the worst writing imaginable. What Hudlin is doing is taking previous characterisations of established characters, notably females, and completely discarding those characterisations in order to portray them as being compeltely inferior and subservient to the great and mighty, infallible Black Panther, super-king of the greatest, most technologyically avanced nation on earth (if you do as Hudlin wants and ignore the billion or so secret societies that make Wakanda look like babies banging rocks together).
A character certainly can follow directions without losing any of their grandeur, and respectability. This can only happen, however, when the writer allows the character to retain their strengths even as they choose to become subordinate to someone else who, presumably, happens to have a better plan at this moment.
Hudlin, unfortunately, doesn't do this. In the case of Monica Rambeua, the former Captain Marvel loses every strength she ever possessed beyond a knowledge of her most basic superhuman abilities. Storm, meanwhile, has lost all her creativity, tactical brilliance, and strength of will even though working under Panther's orders would not preclude her from displaying any of these skills. Instead, her actions are almost exclusively limited to her most basic abilities (zapping stuff!) and whatever Panther considers appropriate at that moment.
No, I don't assume they should be stubborn asses as putting these characters solely in leadership positions isn't the only way to honor them.
Look at Panther's part in the Secret Avengers. He isn't the leader, but he's a valuable member. He spars with Captain America and wins. His resources are integral to goals of the group. He devises the plan to escapefrom the Negative Zone Prison after breaking in.
Now look at Monica who functions as little more than a tool for Black Panther in the Black Avengers arc. Her sole contribution comes from her powers, and apparently Hudlin couldn't give her enough credit to come up with using her abilities in that way completely on her own.
Like I said before, choosing to act as someone else's subordinate doesn't have to mean a diminishment of your character so long as you are allowed to shine in other ways or, at the very least, find a way to contribute that doesn't just involve hitting people with your abilities in the most obvious way imagineable.
Doom and T'Challa have history? The way I remember things, it was actually Storm and the X-Men who had history with Doom according to the people monitoring the Wakandan couple's voyage to Latveria.
And T'Challa's actions will never be motivated by misogyny because, for that to be true, Hudlin would have to indicate that T'Challa doesn't respect women. When we call Black Panther (the title) misogynistic, at best we're calling Hudlin misogynistic. Not knowing the man personally, however, it's far more likely that we're just saying that the story reads as misogynistic, regardless of whether or not that was Hudlin's intent.
If you can think of an interaction between Panther and Storm that suggests an equal partnership and mutual respect between the two (and isn't just words which, like the promise of Storm becoming an internationally known proponent of human and mutant relations, have yet to be followed by actions, then by all means share.
On another subject , if the character truly viewed himself as being so infallible, why did he specifically tell the little boy after the mine accident that he is not a God and that the little boy was capable of the same actions?
Just a question, but would there honestly be the same issues if Batman when he is at the height of his awesomeness and he does get quite awesome ( punching out guy gardener just one example) was Black?
Hudlin, not Black Panther, is being disrespectful to the characters. Hudlin, not Black Panther, is treating Black Panther as infallible. Hudlin made Monica Rambeau forget how to use her powers effectively and gave her confidence issues, effectively creating a character Black Panther had to talk down to and, since the situation called for condescension, we have no choice but to read Panther's actions as completely correct.
Within the context of the stories, there is nothing to indicate Black Panther is acting inappropriately because he's always right, he always wins, and nobody reasonable ever objects to his actions. It is only through reading the story with earlier stories in mind (stories that show a strong Monica, and a Sonja who isn't a whore) and by critiquing the writer rather than his character (judging the book from outside the book) that we can actually judge this book.
Yes. If you look at the superhero tournament that was held in this forum, you'll see endless complaints about how Batman is treated as unstoppable. That was in spite of the fact that Batman makes mistakes and is frequently written as a deeply flawed characters, qualities that currently cannot be attributed to this version of Black Panther and therefore make him worse than Batman.
One-punching Gardner hardly calls for complaints, however, when Gardner wasn't fighting with his ring and doesn't have the same martial training Batman has.
As far as Batman, I definitely see the complaints, but I don't see complaints about writers that make him so powerful, and I dont see people wondering about the motivations behind making Batman more powerful.
And who knows maybe Hudlin is writing the character to where his arrogance will be his deep flaw, which would be awesome. Maybe he will write a story where someone brings Wakanda to its knees using Black Panther's arrogance. Just give the writer a little time.
I guess my point is that I don't understand why it is such a personal issue.
In regards to Batman, there is no one writer who has essentially given Batman the capability to accomplish anything given time to prepare, and so there is no writer who can be explicitly targeted for criticism for the direction of the character. Many on here have lamented The Dark Returns, however, for influencing future stories and turning Batman into an unrelenting hardass who can always beat Superman and turning Superman into a stooge of the American government.
For arrogance to be T'Challa's flaw, people would have to stop thanking him for it. It's also been nearly two years since Hudlin started writing Panther, so I think he's been given more than enough time to introduce any kind of foible to the Black Panther character or, at the very least, write one single good arc.
This whole thread is sort of one long look at why the rest of us don't read it...
edit: idiot.
Reading excerpts from or a few issues of Black Panther, however, is not the same as saying you "read Black Panther" which implies that you follow the series on a monthly basis, reading the entirety of each issue as they see print.
Almost everyone who has posted here has read at least some part of Hudlin's run on Black Panther, additionally, thanks to Civil War, we have seen Black Panther cross over into other areas of the Marvel U.
If you still think people can't make some type of informed judgement because they haven't read every single issue of Black Panther, then I have no clue what you're even doing in this thread.
The wish thing set the stage, and HoM is what happened to try and jam all those wants together. They certainly didn't bill HoM as "What if... Mutants ruled the world?" You only got to see that side of it once the actual premise was applied in the books. Mutants being the majority was the effect, not the cause.
I'm not sure what I did to piss you off dude, but uh, sorry?
I just thought, after reading this thread, and sitting through pretty much every other argument about BP, that everybody harping on the book seemed fairly well versed in it's goings-on. I mean, the first arc, House Of M, Black Avengers/Monica, visiting Namor and Dr. Doom/the Storm Wedding are all seperate arcs, right? And I've seen all of these storyarcs used in criticisms of the book in this very thread.
I assumed that if they were that knowledgeable about pretty much every story beat the book's had so far, then maybe they were reading the book?
I can see why it seems like it was some kind of grand wish fulfillment, but the Scarlet Witch was remaking the world at the behest of Quicksilver, and possibly her own crazy self. It wasn't like she was playing genie to the Marvel U.
I just bothers me when people think other peoples opinions aren't valid because they haven't read the book, or come into a thread with a pretty intense discussion and try and cut it off with a "if you don't like it, don't read it." If that isn't what you were doing, I apologize, but it seems like it was.
The beauty of this thread is that we've been talking about Black Panther in almost every thread on this board, this lets us stick to just one. That is one reason everyone knows what is going on... almost everyone read the Storm/BP wedding, screen shots of the exchange with doom were posted here, and outside of that most of us have read at least one arc from the current run. But as far as I know, wwtmask and O.C. are the only ones who consistently buy the series.
While it's easy to think Peter wanted to be married to Gwen and Steve never wanted to be displaced from his era, fact is that Peter loves MJ and wouldn't want to be married to someone else (as far as most writers are concerned) and Steve doesn't want to be an old soldier who never got the chance to live up to his full potential. Hank Pym also probably didn't want to be a terrorist (if his wishes were granted, he'd probably be married to Wasp again) and Tony probably didn't want to be a weird tournament fighting living in the shadow of his father.
hulk is some kind of aboriginal ruler or something, i don't remember (you'd think bruce's wish would be to not be the fucking hulk but hey)
whereas
the living legend of wwII is an old dude living in a tenement
Well, Hawkeye got to be alive... which just shows that he lacks foresight. I would have wished to be alive, then also wished for a superpower other then being really good with a bow...
Edit: Also, why would Luke Cage wish to be some kind of weird underworld mafia don?
As a matter of fact, that's pretty much what you're saying. The contention is that somehow Storm and Monica are belittled by taking direction from T'Challa, which I say is false. If it's not "bad", why is this such a big deal that it's constantly brought up?
That's interesting because, from what I read, that's not the case at all.
Second, you throw that JLA/Avengers bit out, and it's impressive, really. If only T'Challa had read that and all the other Avengers comics, he'd be privvy to that knowledge as well! It ought to be obvious, but let me spell it out: T'Challa is saying that, in from his experiences working with her, he's only really seen her use her powers in a certain way. I suppose he's being a dick, and Hudlin a misogynist, because T'Challa just doesn't know as much about her other creative uses of her power as you do. If anything, I think it shows a lot of good about her character that, unlike how she acted in Nextwave, she doesn't bother trying to correct him and, instead, knowing that she's capable, goes out and saves the day.
Here's a hint: if you want to argue with me, don't reference something that makes my point for me. T'Challa told her that he thought she was using her power like a six-shooter. Lo and behold, in Nextwave she blew up a lot of shit with light beams and such. That's extremely creative, all right.
Believe it or not, Monica didn't know that she was facing vampires. The most she knew (especially since the survivors' description of the vampires was pretty vague) was that some creatures were eating people. She didn't know they were vampires for sure until Black Panther talked to her.
I disagree that he's mischaracterizing and that the women act or look inferior. Also, you sound like an ass with that last little jab there. Way to turn a mostly reasonable post into semi-trolling. :v:
Atlantis for one.
I'm sure there are tons of them. Everything from Attilan to Wakanda to Atlantis was "the most advanced civilization on the planet, making everyone else look like cavemen" when they were introduced and at various points afterwards.
That's why I think it's ridiculous for anyone to state that one society is the most advanced in the Marvel Universe. That matter is subject to revision, and when the technologies themselves are never examined in detail it's hardly within our abilities to make an adequate side by side comparison (What's the difference between one death ray and another?) and decide for ourselves.
In any case, all that matters in the end is that fictional nation X is better than we are, since that's the only point most writers are trying to get across.
Atlantis is the best.