MongerI got the ham stink.Dallas, TXRegistered Userregular
I said when Itagaki left Team Ninja that I didn't trust anyone else with the series and everyone was all "WHO NEEDS HIM THAT GUY'S SUCH A DICK ANYWAY WITH HIS OATMEAL FACE AND HIS SEXUAL HARASSMENT GOOD RIDDANCE." I'm not going to say I told you so, but I totally did tell you so.
That said, it seems like an alright action game even if it isn't Ninja Gai-
I know that Ryu has rarely been the traditional subtle ninja even at his debut in arcades and the NES sidescrolling series, but I think they've gotten even more disconnected from that "ninja" word than ever before.
"now I've got this mental image of caucuses as cafeteria tables in prison, and new congressmen having to beat someone up on inauguration day." - Raiden333
I'm honestly convinced Hayashi wanted to make a completely different game but got saddled with the Ninja Gaiden IP. Seriously, this is the anti-NG, as it looked like everything was being done on auto-pilot most of the time.
A few more observations:
- I really don't like the way the flow keeps getting broken by the cinematic close-ups. The reason why the Team Ninja NG games were so fun is because everything was coming at you so smoothly and quickly, and there were few opportunities to actually catch your breath mid fight; everything kept you on your toes and thinking on your feet.
- The base mechanics like rolling, dodging and UT's weren't broken to begin with, so why cut them out? The whole "cursed arm" thing seems like a lame way to artificially lower the challenge.
- About said "cursed arm": I don't think Mr. Hayabusa, trained master super-flippin' sweet ninja, would have any qualms about eliminating armed terrorists and other evil-doers who willingly hurt civilians, especially for the sole purpose of getting to him. He pretty much carved up an entire army in the first game for less. I'm guessing this is Hayashi's way of getting around fighting Fiends as your central drama. Doesn't make much sense to me.
Between this and DmC, I'm very, very depressed about the state of action gaming nowadays.
Yeah, watching it without the commentary, and based on what I could notice--not nearly as depressing, but not very informative either, as I've demonstrated.
I don't understand why everyone's so butthurt about Ninja Gaiden 3 (well, I do understand, Internet spergers at their finest). The gameplay looks fantastic and fun and brutal, just as it should.
Any time you appear to go from broad (lots of different weapon types, lots of different creature types) to narrow (katana only, mostly human enemies), people are going to complain about it. It's entirely possible that, given how much they're recreating the core combat mechanics, the katana all by itself will be a ton deeper than all the various weapons back in NG2, but fans aren't seeing that right now -- they're seeing the game go from X weapons to 1.
I remember when I worked as a tutor, the tutor service said, "The family may not remember that you stayed 10 minutes late, but they'll always remember that you left 10 minutes early." The same thing applies here. Maybe the katana combat is incredibly deep. Maybe there are new stances that effectively double or triple the number of moves available. But all the end user sees in the videos is "fewer cool weapons, fewer things to use them on."
And nobody's wrong here. The potential customers are voicing concern based on what they've seen, and the developer is putting out content to give people a look at the potential product. It's the dance of game releases.
Personally, I really loved the lunar staff and the big bad scythe you got from the werewolf king -- there are plenty of games that let you kill dudes with a sword, and the staff was a fun new twist. Losing that bums me out. And I haven't yet seen evidence of complexity that indicates that this new direction is a good one. And moral ambiguity and sadness doesn't really feel appropriate in these games -- the grudging respect between Ryu and "whoever that guy was that I fought four or five times" is about as far as I wanna see it go.
But if the gameplay is awesome, that will pay for all.
It's not just the weapons and enemy type. The removal of dodging and rolling and trading ultimate techniques for what seems like a smart bomb you accumulate as you kill more makes it seem like a totally different game. Now it just looks like a mess of sliding and mindlessly killing and then unleashing that smart bomb once you've killed enough.
I will wait and see, but the change in direction seems way too radical.
It's not just the weapons and enemy type. The removal of dodging and rolling and trading ultimate techniques for what seems like a smart bomb you accumulate as you kill more makes it seem like a totally different game. Now it just looks like a mess of sliding and mindlessly killing and then unleashing that smart bomb once you've killed enough.
I will wait and see, but the change in direction seems way too radical.
Okay, yes, the lack of dodging and rolling sounds... really bad.
I was just trying to show that we weren't mindlessly leaping to "OMGALLHOPELOST conclusions." Maybe there will be some awesome element that totally makes up for not having... you know... most of the stuff I liked in the last game.
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
Yeah. I mean while I think all of these changes sound horrible, like with DmC, I will wait and see. However, I will still bitch in the meantime.
At the risk of sounding controversial, I'm going to say that there are people who played the game who honestly liked certain weapons much more than the katana.
They have every right to be disappointed and dismayed. Of course, it's possible that said weapon wasn't going to reappear in a sequel anyway (besides the katana, the luna and Vigoorian flails were the only weapons I can recall that were carried over). But in all likelihood, the lone weapon isn't going to be a replacement for it.
There are other people, including myself, who really enjoyed switching weapons on the fly as the situation warrants it. Having only one weapon literally undoes this--even having Ryu fight in different styles or stances, 3D fighter style, isn't really a substitute. These are valid complaints, though they're not held by everyone.
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
Not sure how that is controversial...a lot of people have been saying that. Though not in so many words.
What the hell? A dodge/roll 3rd Person and one without it play entirely different.
This... doesn't sound good. The scaling the gore down works for me though.
I dont play ninja gaiden for the story, and honestly i didnt think it looked bad, like at all.
Sappy story? Standard
Only katanas? Totally okay as long as i could weild two.
However, dodge/rolling was one of the things that set it apart from other action games, not only showcasing Ryu's agility, but also scaring the fuck out of you when enemies could keep up with him.
I had not heard anything about NG3 at all. Didn't even know they were making it. So I see this thread and think cool.
Then I read it.
I now feel like I just tapped some one on the shoulder, who I thought was an old friend, only to have a guy I don't recognize turn around and kick me in the nuts.
Wonderful. Good night everyone.
I look at your avatar and read your post, but all I hear in my head is, "How many times do I have to tell you... your nut shots, have no effect on me!"
LOL. Well you see at the time I was in disguise as a lowly bootblack and had to endure it or betray my true identity. ;-)
If this were a new IP or something, I would say it sounded interesting. I don't even care for Ninja Gaiden all that much, and I'm offended a little...
Aye, there's a certain point with sequels where you have to wonder why not just attempt a new IP? It's really okay to do that. :T
But I guess it's just safer to "reboot" or "reimagine" a franchise than it is to introduce something that's entirely new.
“I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
edited September 2011
Pretty much, I wouldn't have a problem with this if it wasn't called Ninja Gaiden. Heck, you could even make it out to be a modern day Tenchu with the angle they seem to be going for. But brand recognition will be whored...whored to the max.
The dodge/roll thing is a little unclear. They're both gone from the game, but they've been replaced with a slide, which is an offensive tool (like the dashing attack Ryu gets when using some weapons in Ninja Gaiden 1 and 2), and also part of quick time events, and sometimes used to navigate through levels. It might also have invulnerability frames, or it might simply be a means for moving out of the the way when big attacks are incoming. But even in the hard mode gameplay there wasn't the same ranged pressure that the other games had; looked like the player could jump and slide around freely without having to worry about being shot in the back. More gameplay should help, and there will probably be a demo.
I actually kind of understand the issue XCOM fans hare having now. Now that I see it happening to a franchise I've played before, I understand their concerns.
Everyone has a price. Throw enough gold around and someone will risk disintegration.
One of the main reasons why Ninja Gaiden(and DOA, to an extent)were so well recieved was because it was glaringly obvious that Itagaki loved the SHIT out of making those games.
He didnt put 4 different weapons with upgrades because it was filler. He put them in because he basically said to himself "OH MAAN RYU SHOULD HAVE CLAWS!" and he put them in because he thought it was badass as shit.
And it was.
This reeks of tecmo basically strongarming his poor apprentice into continuing the series and he is basically phoning it in.
If this were a new IP or something, I would say it sounded interesting. I don't even care for Ninja Gaiden all that much, and I'm offended a little...
Aye, there's a certain point with sequels where you have to wonder why not just attempt a new IP? It's really okay to do that. :T
But I guess it's just safer to "reboot" or "reimagine" a franchise than it is to introduce something that's entirely new.
I have no issue with reboots or reimaginings when a series has gotten stale or has not been seen in many years and needs a new face. NG is actually a reboot itself of the old NES series. I don't think many people flipped out when they found out it wasn't a side scrolling platformer anymore. But the modern NG has had all of 2 games made (with some minor version variations released) each being successful. I see no reason that it needs a reboot.
Also this doesn't really look like a reboot. It looks they are just discarding some core mechanics and adding other (bad) ones inside a shell that looks exactly like the first two.
Granted it's all speculation but I agree with others here who think Hayashi got stuck with this and is trying to make something else out of it.
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The_SpaniardIt's never lupinesIrvine, CaliforniaRegistered Userregular
I had not heard anything about NG3 at all. Didn't even know they were making it. So I see this thread and think cool.
Then I read it.
I now feel like I just tapped some one on the shoulder, who I thought was an old friend, only to have a guy I don't recognize turn around and kick me in the nuts.
Wonderful. Good night everyone.
I look at your avatar and read your post, but all I hear in my head is, "How many times do I have to tell you... your nut shots, have no effect on me!"
LOL. Well you see at the time I was in disguise as a lowly bootblack and had to endure it or betray my true identity. ;-)
That movie.. I like it very much.
Also throw me into the camp that loved the lunar staff.
MongerI got the ham stink.Dallas, TXRegistered Userregular
Maybe it's just me, but I don't get the impression that Hayashi's phoning anything in here. I mean, yeah, I'm sure that Ninja Gaiden 3 exists as a corporate mandate because it's Tecmo Koei and come on, but I don't think what's going on with the guy is as simple as that. I think he just doesn't know how to deal with being in Itagaki's shadow, and is trying too hard to do something that he would never do. Itagaki has shit on the guy constantly for trying to replicate his games and not executing on them in a manner in line with his excessively specific standards. The impression I get from the game (and Sigma 2, really) is more "No, this is my Team Ninja. It is not your Team Ninja. We don't do things like you did." Which is kind of petty. But Itagaki seems to have that effect on people.
But, then again, maybe he does just makes bad decisions.
I'm a major Ninja Gaiden fan since the NES days, loved the first "new" one on Xbox, sadly thought the camera was too awful in the second for 360 and this........this just sounds like an absolute train wreck.
Who knows, maybe they will surprise us. But so far it sounds like they got no freaking clue at all or are trying to shoe in some crazy thought pattern into a game that doesn't need it.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't get the impression that Hayashi's phoning anything in here. I mean, yeah, I'm sure that Ninja Gaiden 3 exists as a corporate mandate because it's Tecmo Koei and come on, but I don't think what's going on with the guy is as simple as that. I think he just doesn't know how to deal with being in Itagaki's shadow, and is trying too hard to do something that he would never do. Itagaki has shit on the guy constantly for trying to replicate his games and not executing on them in a manner in line with his excessively specific standards. The impression I get from the game (and Sigma 2, really) is more "No, this is my Team Ninja. It is not your Team Ninja. We don't do things like you did." Which is kind of petty. But Itagaki seems to have that effect on people.
But, then again, maybe he does just makes bad decisions.
Hard to say.
I can see how this is also happening
And to be fair, the shit he got for sigma 1 was completly undeserved and was basically itagaki being a dick because hayashi caved into tecmo demanding a ps3 port.
So we're left with the slim possibility of Hayashi going, "Remember that minor insult a few years back? Yeah, I'm going to ride this series into the fucking ground, Activion-style."
I'm going to hold out hope. Not because I like any of the changes, but because even a mediocre Ninja Gaiden is still solid "action game of the year" material.
I mean, that is assuming this reaches levels of mediocrity. Which I think it might, judging from the videos! See? Optimism!
...visually, it looks pretty good. Crazy army tchotchke aside.
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LCDXXA flask of wood and glassTerre Haute, INRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I can't help but notice some parallels with the new DMC... Both NG3 and DMC seem to be victims of mad men who are determined to change things for the sake changing them. It's disappointing.
What's next? God of War 4 set in modern times featuring emo Kratos without chains and the option to settle fights with the power of reason and context sensitive peaceful negotiations?
However, part of me won't write NG3 off completely just yet. I hold the first Ninja Gaiden (and NG Black) in very high regard. NG2 wasn't exactly stellar, but it was more Ninja Gaiden which is all I really wanted. And I still want more.
In an interview with Gamepro, Hayashi went into a little more detail about how and why they're changing certain recognized aspects of the Ninja Gaiden experience.
"In trying to make it more immersive and more engaging on an emotional level we’re trying to keep out the more ‘gamey’ elements from the single-player.”
Hayashi clarified that such elements they are getting rid of include looking for statues and collecting orbs from fallen enemies, which should keep players from bouncing in and out of menu screens.
“Action games right now are much more immersive, and in modern action games you don’t really see yellow orbs coming out of dead bodies and things like that. It just seemed too dated. It’s a videogame. We want to make a modern action game without all of the past baggage. Something that feels modern and feels new and feels immersive.”
As he's said before, this stuff is supposedly to service the more emotional and involving singleplayer story mode of the game. Less hud (The optional score and combo tracker is gone from the game), more blubbering enemies.
Hayashi conveyed that they wanted to show that under Hayabusa’s ninja exterior he’s still human. This time around he will feel the consequences of his killing.
“It’s actually a curse placed upon Ryu Hayabusa’s arm by ‘The Regent of the Mask,’ for retribution of all the lives he has taken. That’s one of the aspects and manifestations of the consequence theme that we’re going for. As he takes lives, it gets reflected in that curse and you’ll see in the course of the game it progress and change.”
This is the part where his arm starts glowing after he inflicts damage, letting him use his ultimate technique. Looks like the curse will be upgraded during the game, which should mean more powerful (or different) ultimate techniques.
Seems a little odd that the punishment placed on a man for killing too many people -- a man who's job it is to kill people -- is a curse that helps him kill people. Maybe that will be dealt with in the story as well.
Posts
That said, it seems like an alright action game even if it isn't Ninja Gai- Oh come the fuck on.
All right, people. It is not a gerbil. It is not a hamster. It is not a guinea pig. It is a death rabbit. Death. Rabbit. Say it with me, now.
I know that Ryu has rarely been the traditional subtle ninja even at his debut in arcades and the NES sidescrolling series, but I think they've gotten even more disconnected from that "ninja" word than ever before.
Bah, this just makes me want a new tenchu.
A few more observations:
- I really don't like the way the flow keeps getting broken by the cinematic close-ups. The reason why the Team Ninja NG games were so fun is because everything was coming at you so smoothly and quickly, and there were few opportunities to actually catch your breath mid fight; everything kept you on your toes and thinking on your feet.
- The base mechanics like rolling, dodging and UT's weren't broken to begin with, so why cut them out? The whole "cursed arm" thing seems like a lame way to artificially lower the challenge.
- About said "cursed arm": I don't think Mr. Hayabusa, trained master super-flippin' sweet ninja, would have any qualms about eliminating armed terrorists and other evil-doers who willingly hurt civilians, especially for the sole purpose of getting to him. He pretty much carved up an entire army in the first game for less. I'm guessing this is Hayashi's way of getting around fighting Fiends as your central drama. Doesn't make much sense to me.
Between this and DmC, I'm very, very depressed about the state of action gaming nowadays.
Any time you appear to go from broad (lots of different weapon types, lots of different creature types) to narrow (katana only, mostly human enemies), people are going to complain about it. It's entirely possible that, given how much they're recreating the core combat mechanics, the katana all by itself will be a ton deeper than all the various weapons back in NG2, but fans aren't seeing that right now -- they're seeing the game go from X weapons to 1.
I remember when I worked as a tutor, the tutor service said, "The family may not remember that you stayed 10 minutes late, but they'll always remember that you left 10 minutes early." The same thing applies here. Maybe the katana combat is incredibly deep. Maybe there are new stances that effectively double or triple the number of moves available. But all the end user sees in the videos is "fewer cool weapons, fewer things to use them on."
And nobody's wrong here. The potential customers are voicing concern based on what they've seen, and the developer is putting out content to give people a look at the potential product. It's the dance of game releases.
Personally, I really loved the lunar staff and the big bad scythe you got from the werewolf king -- there are plenty of games that let you kill dudes with a sword, and the staff was a fun new twist. Losing that bums me out. And I haven't yet seen evidence of complexity that indicates that this new direction is a good one. And moral ambiguity and sadness doesn't really feel appropriate in these games -- the grudging respect between Ryu and "whoever that guy was that I fought four or five times" is about as far as I wanna see it go.
But if the gameplay is awesome, that will pay for all.
I will wait and see, but the change in direction seems way too radical.
Okay, yes, the lack of dodging and rolling sounds... really bad.
I was just trying to show that we weren't mindlessly leaping to "OMGALLHOPELOST conclusions." Maybe there will be some awesome element that totally makes up for not having... you know... most of the stuff I liked in the last game.
Also...
No dodging
Katanas only
Final Destination
They have every right to be disappointed and dismayed. Of course, it's possible that said weapon wasn't going to reappear in a sequel anyway (besides the katana, the luna and Vigoorian flails were the only weapons I can recall that were carried over). But in all likelihood, the lone weapon isn't going to be a replacement for it.
There are other people, including myself, who really enjoyed switching weapons on the fly as the situation warrants it. Having only one weapon literally undoes this--even having Ryu fight in different styles or stances, 3D fighter style, isn't really a substitute. These are valid complaints, though they're not held by everyone.
What the hell? A dodge/roll 3rd Person and one without it play entirely different.
This... doesn't sound good. The scaling the gore down works for me though.
I dont play ninja gaiden for the story, and honestly i didnt think it looked bad, like at all.
Sappy story? Standard
Only katanas? Totally okay as long as i could weild two.
However, dodge/rolling was one of the things that set it apart from other action games, not only showcasing Ryu's agility, but also scaring the fuck out of you when enemies could keep up with him.
So yeah, that's a deal breaker for me.
LOL. Well you see at the time I was in disguise as a lowly bootblack and had to endure it or betray my true identity. ;-)
Synthesis: ruiner of hopes, dreams
Yea... I get the feeling he likes the taste of fan-tears.
They are delicious, but that is a totally unrelated matter.
If this were a new IP or something, I would say it sounded interesting. I don't even care for Ninja Gaiden all that much, and I'm offended a little...
Aye, there's a certain point with sequels where you have to wonder why not just attempt a new IP? It's really okay to do that. :T
But I guess it's just safer to "reboot" or "reimagine" a franchise than it is to introduce something that's entirely new.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
stream
He didnt put 4 different weapons with upgrades because it was filler. He put them in because he basically said to himself "OH MAAN RYU SHOULD HAVE CLAWS!" and he put them in because he thought it was badass as shit.
And it was.
This reeks of tecmo basically strongarming his poor apprentice into continuing the series and he is basically phoning it in.
Also this doesn't really look like a reboot. It looks they are just discarding some core mechanics and adding other (bad) ones inside a shell that looks exactly like the first two.
Granted it's all speculation but I agree with others here who think Hayashi got stuck with this and is trying to make something else out of it.
Also throw me into the camp that loved the lunar staff.
But, then again, maybe he does just makes bad decisions.
Hard to say.
All right, people. It is not a gerbil. It is not a hamster. It is not a guinea pig. It is a death rabbit. Death. Rabbit. Say it with me, now.
Who knows, maybe they will surprise us. But so far it sounds like they got no freaking clue at all or are trying to shoe in some crazy thought pattern into a game that doesn't need it.
I can see how this is also happening
And to be fair, the shit he got for sigma 1 was completly undeserved and was basically itagaki being a dick because hayashi caved into tecmo demanding a ps3 port.
Not a good sign.
I mean, that is assuming this reaches levels of mediocrity. Which I think it might, judging from the videos! See? Optimism!
What's next? God of War 4 set in modern times featuring emo Kratos without chains and the option to settle fights with the power of reason and context sensitive peaceful negotiations?
However, part of me won't write NG3 off completely just yet. I hold the first Ninja Gaiden (and NG Black) in very high regard. NG2 wasn't exactly stellar, but it was more Ninja Gaiden which is all I really wanted. And I still want more.
As he's said before, this stuff is supposedly to service the more emotional and involving singleplayer story mode of the game. Less hud (The optional score and combo tracker is gone from the game), more blubbering enemies.
This is the part where his arm starts glowing after he inflicts damage, letting him use his ultimate technique. Looks like the curse will be upgraded during the game, which should mean more powerful (or different) ultimate techniques.
Seems a little odd that the punishment placed on a man for killing too many people -- a man who's job it is to kill people -- is a curse that helps him kill people. Maybe that will be dealt with in the story as well.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
stream