I started reading monthly comics because of this relaunch
I'm pretty sure I'm the only one
That's great!
I mean it really is.
but judging from the sales figures, any new readers gained from the Reboot aren't really staying around. JL 4 sold 138k which is very good but just nothing amazing. Sales like that were around before and after the reboot.
The whole thing definitely has some quality stories within it, I don't think anyone would argue that it doesn't. But the only two that really feel like they are bold new versions of a character in a new universe are Wonder Woman and Action Comics. Everything else could have been done in the DCU, I think.
I was someone that started back up with the new 52 as well, but despite some titles embracing the idea of relaunching characters, other titles had varying amounts of fresh starty-ness.
It would have been neat if dc had a more cohesive idea of pushing its universe in a single direction, but it felt like from the start the titles began to move in different directions almost as if being directed by entropy.
for example holding off adding some secondary characters so they can better characterize the new versions, and then organically add in side-kicks/villians/etc and even do new takes on old plot lines (similar but not the same). Instead you get this hodge podge collection of accepted continuities which fans just have to accept happened earlier.
so it went from a well known, if not always well defined universe, to everything is exciting and new anything great could happen, except wait, a and b carried over from before, but we arent really sure if we want C included or not yet. also we want liefield in on this.
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AriviaI Like A ChallengeEarth-1Registered Userregular
Again, industry wide sales did go up last year and are predicted to do so this year as well
So not everything is diving into the shitter
It's a temporary short term solution reliant on a marketing gimmick for relaunching their entire universe. They can't do that every six months. They need long term solutions to stay relevant in the direct market or they'll return to No.2 again between gimicks forever.
It is the 90's at DC again though
Well, Bob Harass is their EIC.
The best comics they are putting out right now are the ones by the, like, five or six actual top name writers that are doing the job right now
And a few other books that are surprisingly special
That's good. But 5 or 6 is nothing in their 52 titles. They need to do better than that.
On that not I do think that Marvel has a much better pool of talent right now and that is probably why DC is having such problems.
It's definitely a problem they need to solve.
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited February 2012
Comic sales are increasing on the back end, where the lower level books in the Top 300 sell more, yet the ceiling on books is repeatedly shrinking in what is usually the Big 2's dominant area. And it can't be all blamed on the economy.
I really think a Johns/Lee teaming for a Justice League story in the old DCU would have moved just as many copies as it did in September, maybe minus 5 thousand.
Well DC has Johns, Manapul, Lemire, Snyder, Morrison, JH Williams III, Rucka, DnA (though they don't really do much DC stuff these days) and Simone (though lately I don't think she hsa been very good at all) in their top teir. Those are all the guys (and gal) that consistently write books we can rely on to be good.
But if you asked me who meets the standard of those writers at Marvel? Oh man, Bendis, Fraction, Hickman, Brubaker, Aaron, Remender, Slott, Gage, Waid, Gillen, Parker, Pak, Van Lente, DnA... And half of those guys, five to ten years ago, weren't in mainstream comics. But Marvel have seen they are good, pulled them on board, and got them writing their top books.
I do think that Marvel has been much more dynamic in recent years than DC. Like, they have pushed on stories and the characters in ways that seem cool and organic, without really changing them beyond their core nature. Fantastic Four became the FF and they have brought in Alex Power and Leech and Dragon Man and so on. The Avengers had a big argument and split up, then fought, then got back together, and now have multiple teams going in multiple directions. The X-Men went to the West Coast, then to Utopia, and have now shifted partially back to Westchester. Asgard came to Earth, then got wrecked, and now is inhabited by all manner of beings and ruled by the All-Mothers. Things are happening and going places.
But that, to be, is symptomatic of the fact that Marvel's writing pool is equally dynamic and forward and they are great at getting new dudes to come in and write stuff. Which DC haven't, at the same time as they have a bit of a Silver Age and now 90's fetish going on, with a lack of dynamism in their storylines.
So yeah in retrospect, they rebooted the wrong thing. The good stories now could easily have been done pre-reboot, and probably better, since instead of books like JLI just feeling kind of generic we would be able to see that yeah Booster has grown up and yeah Generation Lost did happen and that is all a thing, so it all makes sense. They rebooted the characters, but the characters aren't the problem. The writers, and more specifically they way they handle those writers and advance their writing pool, is the problem. But that's a lot harder to change. DC took the easy, superficial route which didn't really solve any of the problems. It's not surprising that now it seems to be falling apart on them a little.
Comic sales are increasing on the back end, where the lower level books in the Top 300 sell more, yet the ceiling on books is repeatedly shrinking in what is usually the Big 2's dominant area. And it can't be all blamed on the economy.
I really think a Johns/Lee teaming for a Justice League story in the old DCU would have moved just as many copies as it did in September, maybe minus 5 thousand.
I am super-curious about how well trade sell, I really am
It wouldn't surprise me at all if the reduced sales of singles was concurrent with increased sales of trades.
And I also wonder why they don't release trade sales, and think that maybe it actually suits Marvel and DC to let people think that the industry is not doing that well, because then they will go out and spend more money on it. Maybe not. I dunno. But it does seem possible.
Solar on
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited February 2012
Scott McDaniel does a lengthy response to Rozum, with so much detail the dude sure seems more believable. It seems Rozum left out certain things when talking earlier, beyond just boiling down things like Static getting his arm cut off. And McDaniel really did his homework for the book too, wanting to have a good first start in co-writing comics, actually scoping out real world locations for scenes and stuff.
Harvey called and invited me to participate in a story conference he was going to have with John. Harvey shared that he was having some trouble getting John oriented to the type of exciting story he wanted in STATIC’s relaunch. Harvey was impressed with my work in the past (limited to instances of my discovering a few plot holes that somehow slipped by the writer and editor before getting to me, and he was impressed with my ideas/comments offered during the initial planning for STATIC with a different writer months earlier). Harvey suggested that I might help brainstorm ideas to get STATIC rolling in a strong, new direction.
Besides, DC Editorial was generally encouraging teams get their artists more involved in the story creation to make sure the stories were as visually interesting as possible. So this seemed the natural thing to do for STATIC.
This is important. Let’s be very clear here. I was INVITED by editorial to join the story meetings and INVITED to bring story ideas to the table.
Despite some other, minor debates on some ideas, our collaboration up to this point in time had been mostly positive, from my point of view. I was having a BLAST talking story and character and conflict and the like with John and Harvey. I sensed John was getting irritated having to justify all his decisions as I kept examining things from different angles, but I was having great fun and learning a lot!In all the discussion of having Virgil running around S.T.A.R. Labs, it seemed to me that we were actually taking Virgil out of a key element. While Virgil’s “S.T.A.R. Labs internship” is an interesting idea, it seemed to me to unnecessarily take Virgil OUT of high school, away from his peers, and instead place him into a predominantly ADULT environment.
I suggested to John and Harvey that we make the “Dwayne G. McDuffie Center for Science and Mathematics” a charter school, entirely funded and staffed by S.T.A.R. Labs employees, as a way to give back to the community, bringing excellence in math and science to the urban inner city community of Harlem. It was great – we could bring the S.T.A.R. Labs to Virgil, and keep Virgil surrounded by a fun, youthful supporting cast.
This is important, and it rings like a bell in my memory: John literally laughed out loud at this idea, and muttered something like “that’s ridiculous” as he laughed.
This isn’t meant to be boastful, but I thought this was a brilliant idea. It hooks all these various elements together in a fun way: the Labs, the tech, the teen supporting cast. And John literally laughed in my face.
I became angry. REALLY angry. I stopped our story conference dead in its tracks, demanding to know what John found so funny about that idea. After a moment of awkward silence, John replied, “Nothing.”
The topic quickly changed, the conversation moved to another subject, and that was that.
I admit, this angered me like few other experiences in my professional career. I was DETERMINED to prove to John that I had good ideas to bring to the table.
To be clear, my anger took the form of a professional prosecutor going after a guilty man in a formal courtroom. I hurled no expletives. I hurled no insults. No name calling, or wailing to the heavens. I became fiercely determined to get an answer to my question.
And I admit, from this moment on, my impression of John Rozum turned decidedly negative.
A short while later, John’s second draft arrived. Nervously, I opened the file and began to read.It was filled with a lot of other detours and weirdness that I didn’t really understand.
…
Static is hailed from the street by a citizen. The citizen gives Static the address where people are supposedly printing counterfeit cigarette tax stamps. Static, suspecting a trap, goes there anyway. And guess what – he’s right! It’s a trap! Guillotina is waiting for him!
Cigarette Tax Stamps? Cigarette Tax Stamps? This has to be the most BORING superhero trap lure I’ve ever encountered. But, at least the fight is ON! Guillotina vs. Static!
They fight for five pages. Static traps Guillotina under a heavy piece of machinery, and then….
… Static runs away!
Excuse me… what?
After everything has been said, it seems like a writer not being the correct choice for what DC wanted with Static, an eager artist turned co-writer who was getting shot down by the writer because it wasn't really his job to do anything but draw, and sales that didn't have any kind of traction or optimism to them.
And after reading #6, it does seem to coincide with what McDaniel wrote about Rozum having no endgame for the first arc, as it just kind of ends, but wraps up the Twin Sisters plot in what felt like the book was going to be cancelled with #6 anyways.
CRIME ALLIANCE, PART II
So I directed my anger toward designing the Crime Alliance we talked about. I knew what Harvey was trying to get. I could see an option to move from John's material (quoted above) to something closer to what we discussed, and to what I thought Harvey was really wanting for the book.
I came up with a STATIC CRIMINAL ELEMENTS document, which explained in DETAIL the various players in this sprawling organization, their physical appearances, their role and relation within the group, their individual motivations and their own backstory sketch. I was going to attach it here for you to examine, but since it contains backstory that hasn't yet been published, I thought I should withhold it at this time.
I tried to be as complete as I could, building "A" working model, if not "THE" final working model, of the Crime Alliance.
Harvey really liked my concept and characters, and he approved them. John seemed to like them as well. I don't know if he truly felt as negatively towards them at that time as he does now, but if he did, he surely didn't say so. All was cool, and it was full steam ahead.
MY ROLE CHANGES
John's script draft iterations had consumed all the time off the clock. Time was running out, deadlines were approaching. Since I created nearly all the characters, and their interrelated conflicts, in the current set up, Harvey gave me the go ahead to plot at least the first issue. I honestly don't recall how it grew to me plotting the first three issues. However, Harvey made it CLEAR to me, early on, that John was to resume FULL writing duties with issue #4.
So he just starts writing things like the villains' motivations and hierarchy, without consulting the writer, and then turning it into the editor? And then the editor has him begin plotting the series, from issue one? I don't see how this contradicts Rozum's story that he was being undermined by McDaniel and Richards, right from the start. Additionally, McDaniel's repeated insistence that he prove his value as a writer/contributor, hints that this was an ongoing thing.
I can see it from both sides here. If I was writing something, and an artist was constantly challenging me, and going around my back to ask the editor after I'd shot him down, I'd start to get annoyed with it. It's a fine line between being a good collaborator, and nitpicking the writer's ideas.
But, I can also see the artist wanting to collaborate and contribute, because nobody wants to draw something, that they're not having fun with.
I got BACK into buying them monthly instead of trades when the new 52 hit. I guess that counts.
Hadnt done that since... 2000?
hi-five!
95 for me
Yeah, this was me too. Although I'd probably stopped following monthly books a little later, 2007 or so. I was totally pulled back in by the reboot. My wife on the other hand, is on her way to becoming a huge comics fan thanks to the reboot. She's gotten to the point where she gives me a list of books to pick up for her as I head down to the LCS.
On the Rozum/McDaniel thing:
To me, that sounds like a break down on the Editorial side. An Editor's job (at least as far as comics goes) has always been to provide some direction and kind of give the team some cohesion if they lack it. Some parts of that story almost come off as Harvey playing McDaniel and Rozum against each other.
Could be that being an editor is a lost art. This seems to be the Day of the Superstar Writer/Artist/Whatever. I doubt many editors these days have it in them to reign a Morrison-type in.
To me, that sounds like a break down on the Editorial side. An Editor's job (at least as far as comics goes) has always been to provide some direction and kind of give the team some cohesion if they lack it. Some parts of that story almost come off as Harvey playing McDaniel and Rozum against each other.
Could be that being an editor is a lost art. This seems to be the Day of the Superstar Writer/Artist/Whatever. I doubt many editors these days have it in them to reign a Morrison-type in.
I can understand an editor having a difficult time saying no to a super-star writer or artist. It's not good but it's logical. But this? It's a disgrace at the lowest level. Neither McDaniel or Rozum are super-stars. My guess is DC wants artists contributing more (not a bad thing) only they went too far with this. Makes me wonder what else is going on in other titles behind the scenes.
That said, both Rozum & Scott screwed up. Rozum should have said more to communicate why he didn't like Scott taking over* and McDaniel should know by now that writers are in charge of stories, not artists.
* assuming McDaniel's claims are true
Harry Dresden on
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ArrynAsk not the InnkeeperFor destiny is thy name!Registered Userregular
Agreed, and that's what I was getting at with my comment about an Editor providing cohesiveness. He should realize when his team has suffered a break down in communication, and get everybody back on the same page.
And especially true about neither of those two being super-stars. Which might indicate a problem in how the Editor job is generally being perceived over there.
As we used to say in another little group I was part of, "it's a Top-Down organization and shit runs downhill."
Agreed, and that's what I was getting at with my comment about an Editor providing cohesiveness. He should realize when his team has suffered a break down in communication, and get everybody back on the same page.
And especially true about neither of those two being super-stars. Which might indicate a problem in how the Editor job is generally being perceived over there.
As we used to say in another little group I was part of, "it's a Top-Down organization and shit runs downhill."
My guess is in 10 or 20 years from now it will be very fascinating to hear exactly what happened during Harras' tenure at DC.
Harry Dresden on
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
I'm not under any illusion McDaniel seemed to take the co-writer idea too far, but he did so in a way that it's what you want. He seemed all gung ho about getting a shot to write as well as draw, so he came at it with the enthusiasm of someone right into the first day of their dream job. Or like Bart's first day of Kindergarten. But Rozum seemed unwilling to take him under his wing, and an editor scared of dealing with actual conflict. Nothing bad, just a difference of opinion for someone to mediate who was unwilling to.
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ArrynAsk not the InnkeeperFor destiny is thy name!Registered Userregular
Earth 2 is pretty much going to just be JSA, like it was before, but with the added benefit of the entire Earth 2 roster to play with.
I have no problem with that, because I liked Cyclone and Star Girl and if you did not then you are heartless, sir.
Coming back to this real quick ... I guess you can chalk me up in the heartless category, sirrah.
It's not that I thought they were bad characters. But I hated how much time/space they took up in JSA. Everything seemed to tie back to Stargirl.
For me, the JSA is characters I love that I don't normally get to see anywhere else: Hourman, Starman, Dr. Fate, Dr. Mid-nite, etc. Instead a lot of the last run seemed to be Jay, Alan and Ted telling Stargirl how awesome she was.
Demon Knights is moving so slowly that it's getting really hard to keep track of alliances and minor events month to month. I'm excited for this battle to be over and this first arc/trade to be done with so I can drop it and maybe revisit it later on in trade.
Resurrection Man was a good one and done, but also pretty aimless. I like this book, and it's easy enough to follow along with, but I wish more was happening.
Batwoman, GL, and Frankenstein were all great today. Top of their game.
Superboy is really weird to me. I like it, but I don't know if I'd still be reading it and Teen Titans if it wasn't part of the Super family of books. I picked this up because it's an S title with Silva's amazing art, and then I pick TT up because it's related to this, and then I will probably try a couple issues of Ravagers because it's related to this AND TT. I'm bad like that.
But the weird thing... Kon-El met Kara in this issue, and I don't remember if we have learned this before, but
Apparently in New 52 continuity, Krypton was destroyed by an army of renegade clones, or "kons" ("abominations" in Kryptonian). Apparently the clones lose their mind at some point and just become feral, destructive monsters. Kara will be popping into Superman #6 to warn Clark about it, which will probably be setting up the Summer Super Crossover once the teen book crossover ends and Ravagers hits.
So, now Kon-El is just kryptonian for "abomination in the house of El."
And Batman and Robin was good, but that's another book that has just been moving way too slow. 8 issues is far too many for an intro arc.
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
That seems much more like Earth One than it should be.
Kon-El's name origin in the past was pretty good, although I always liked to think he called himself Kon-El because the old Hawaii TV station's call letters were KONA-TV. Maybe Kesel planned that all along, crafty!
I'm not under any illusion McDaniel seemed to take the co-writer idea too far, but he did so in a way that it's what you want. He seemed all gung ho about getting a shot to write as well as draw, so he came at it with the enthusiasm of someone right into the first day of their dream job. Or like Bart's first day of Kindergarten. But Rozum seemed unwilling to take him under his wing, and an editor scared of dealing with actual conflict. Nothing bad, just a difference of opinion for someone to mediate who was unwilling to.
McDaniel plotted out several issues & got it okayed by the editor behind Rozum's back. How is that not taking the co-writing too far? You don't leave your series veteran writer out of the loop deliberately on stuff like that. He's not there to only execute McDaniel's plots, or at least that wasn't what Rozum signed up for.
This is particularly damning for McDaniel since he knew next to nothing about the series he was adapting IIRC.
Harry Dresden on
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AriviaI Like A ChallengeEarth-1Registered Userregular
I'm not under any illusion McDaniel seemed to take the co-writer idea too far, but he did so in a way that it's what you want. He seemed all gung ho about getting a shot to write as well as draw, so he came at it with the enthusiasm of someone right into the first day of their dream job. Or like Bart's first day of Kindergarten. But Rozum seemed unwilling to take him under his wing, and an editor scared of dealing with actual conflict. Nothing bad, just a difference of opinion for someone to mediate who was unwilling to.
McDaniel plotted out several issues & got it okayed by the editor behind Rozum's back. How is that not taking the co-writing too far? You don't leave your series veteran writer out of the loop deliberately on stuff like that. He's not there to only execute McDaniel's plots, or at least that wasn't what Rozum signed up for.
This is particularly damning for McDaniel since he knew next to nothing about the series he was adapting IIRC.
The way McDaniel tells it, he only plotted those issues because Rozum hadn't and wasn't in a position to do so for any new 52 deadlines.
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited February 2012
Right, there came a point where McDaniel said Rozum was hopping back between scripts for issues 4-6, instead of going straight forward (usually an overarching plot or overview is established, but you go issue by issue from there). And because McDaniel is the artist, having the writer be behind in his work means that McDaniel would lose time to draw pages, and that hurts McDaniel's bottom line for payment.
Honestly it just sounds like a clusterfuck overall.
Like the editors had too much pull for certain lines, and like the editor in this case was the one pushing for McDaniel to be the writer because he thought McDaniel's ideas were more easy to digest and market friendly.
Now, I would say that's a very big part of why the book failed, because it was totally hollow and by the numbers. If the Sister subplot thing was Rozum's idea, then shame on him too. Ditto on the tax stamps or whatever.
It sounds like no one here had good ideas, and it was kind of visible. Sounds like Rozum wanted to age static and make him older, which is totally contrary to the idea of the relaunch, while McDaniel and the editor just had really basic ideas for what to do with the character.
John had very fixed preconceptions of what STATIC should be, very much aligned with his own Rozum-esque sensibility. When Editorial asked him for a different vision, he got knocked out of kilter and just couldn't regain his balance. He just couldn't see how to move from where he was to where editorial wanted him to be. I didn't cause that.
When I joined the team, I had NO preconceptions. I listened, carefully, to what Harvey was trying to achieve, and then set out to achieve it. I didn't conspire against John. I just did the job the way John should have.
For a variety of reasons, many people regard this book as a total failure. I must be totally out of touch with reality, because while it was far from perfect, I think it was also far from being a total "turd."
It seems to me that Rozum probably has a cadence to his writing, that was simply at odds with what Richards, McDaniel, and DC Entertainment wanted, or one that they simply didn't understand. He wanted to do his thing, while McDaniel was happy to conform to DC's expectations. Fair enough. I'd argue that more interesting books come from the former approach than the latter. I mean, I don't want my favorite, quirky writers to have their style altered by someone who just doesn't get it. But ultimately, work-for-hire is work-for-hire, and if the boss says jump, you ask, "How high and would you like a shoulder rub while I'm up here?"
I've never read Xombi, or Static Shock. I do know that Xombi was met with a lot of acclaim, and Static Shock was not. I know both were commercial failures. I don't know the circumstances that led to the creation of either book, but clearly the process behind Xombi worked in at least one respect, and the process behind Static failed in both.
In the end, the work speaks for itself.
Oh, and Dan Jurgens just stated via Twitter that apparently this whole increased focus on increased collaboration, is intentional on DC's part.
Lots of talk about creative differences, esp between writers and artists. It happens. Part of the problem is the biz became dependent on full scripts. Too many writers saw artists as wrists, rather than collaborators. Little room for discussion and co-creativity. That's changing at DC. Real effort underway to get creators talking to one another and working together. Should make for better books.
I'm not sure I agree. Sometimes, you're just going to have two people, with way different approaches, and any compromise is just going to water down the final product. Sometimes, it's in each collaborator's best interest to just trust one another. Because ultimately, both are relying on the other, to make them look good.
That's not to say that the artist should have no input. A lot of writers, like Parker, Loeb, Hester, and Giffen, have commented on how they like to ask for their artist's input, so they can work stuff into the story that they'll enjoy drawing. But, sometimes an artist just needs to do what's in the script, whether they want to or not.
all I get out of this is munch, you DO WHAT YOU'RE TOLD.
DO NOT JACK WIT CHUPACOMICS
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited February 2012
I actually prefer artists to just draw the script given to them, and over time if a collaboration works out, they can change how they do stuff. Just don't give the artist a co-writing credit off the back when little to no dynamic is evident, because you're setting yourself up for a headache, which seems to be the case with Static Shock. And Loeb usually goes too far in the other direction, just writing to whatever the artist wants to do, no matter how ridiculous or nonsensical it is.
Cliff Chiang and Azzarello are a good example of this; Chiang went from being just the WW artist to now getting a co-writing credit starting with #7.
Jurgens and Giffen are in a particularly different spot because they are both good writers and artists, and maybe that is influencing their (in this case Jurgens') opinion too much, wanting to see another artist/writer hybrid to appear.
Thing is, sometimes an artist is not interested in writing. That's fine.
Sometimes an artist is interesting in writing, but they are actually pretty decent at it, and know that they can help and advise and stuff but the writer is the writer and they get to do the writing. That's fine too. Probably better, since an artist who is actively interested in the characters and plots being used will in all likelihood portray them well.
Sometimes an artist is interested in writing, and they are bad at it. After all, they are artists and art is what they do, not writing, maybe they just have no natural talent or skill, but decide to get involved anyway. And this is where the problems come in.
If you tell the artists to do art and nothing else, then you don't run the risk of 3 happening. But also, you lose 2 mostly as well, which is not good. If you don't, then 3 is more likely to happen, but 2 is also more likely to happen.
So I guess you base your policy on "how lucky do I feel"
Right, there came a point where McDaniel said Rozum was hopping back between scripts for issues 4-6, instead of going straight forward (usually an overarching plot or overview is established, but you go issue by issue from there). And because McDaniel is the artist, having the writer be behind in his work means that McDaniel would lose time to draw pages, and that hurts McDaniel's bottom line for payment.
True. But the natural reaction would be to talk to the writer, not plot the arc behind his back with the editor.
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AriviaI Like A ChallengeEarth-1Registered Userregular
Right, there came a point where McDaniel said Rozum was hopping back between scripts for issues 4-6, instead of going straight forward (usually an overarching plot or overview is established, but you go issue by issue from there). And because McDaniel is the artist, having the writer be behind in his work means that McDaniel would lose time to draw pages, and that hurts McDaniel's bottom line for payment.
True. But the natural reaction would be to talk to the writer, not plot the arc behind his back with the editor.
Talking to the writer got DC troubles with the clusterfuck that was "Grounded." They want to ship things on time now, Rozum's fault if he couldn't cut it really.
Honestly it just sounds like a clusterfuck overall.
Like the editors had too much pull for certain lines, and like the editor in this case was the one pushing for McDaniel to be the writer because he thought McDaniel's ideas were more easy to digest and market friendly.
Now, I would say that's a very big part of why the book failed, because it was totally hollow and by the numbers. If the Sister subplot thing was Rozum's idea, then shame on him too. Ditto on the tax stamps or whatever.
It sounds like no one here had good ideas, and it was kind of visible. Sounds like Rozum wanted to age static and make him older, which is totally contrary to the idea of the relaunch, while McDaniel and the editor just had really basic ideas for what to do with the character.
Actually Rozum had good ideas, he spoke about it in his blog IIRC. He wanted Static in Dakota, added Hardware to be his mentor and wanted to tie in the heroes from Milestone Media. Excluding Hardware, this was turned down by the editor.
Talking to the writer got DC troubles with the clusterfuck that was "Grounded."
Not sure what you meant by that.
They want to ship things on time now, Rozum's fault if he couldn't cut it really.
How is communicating better with the writer not a productive measure for an artist if they don't know what's going on? Rozum and McDaniel's lack of communication is one reason why their Static failed IMO. This may have been the editor's intention, actually. I've heard some editors deliberately don't let the creators talk to each other to control the creative team they're supervising. That said, if Rozum was behind schedule I agree he should have stepped aside to let someone else plot & write the comic then come back when he's on schedule.
Right, there came a point where McDaniel said Rozum was hopping back between scripts for issues 4-6, instead of going straight forward (usually an overarching plot or overview is established, but you go issue by issue from there). And because McDaniel is the artist, having the writer be behind in his work means that McDaniel would lose time to draw pages, and that hurts McDaniel's bottom line for payment.
True. But the natural reaction would be to talk to the writer, not plot the arc behind his back with the editor.
Talking to the writer got DC troubles with the clusterfuck that was "Grounded." They want to ship things on time now, Rozum's fault if he couldn't cut it really.
Wait what
Grounded wasn't a clusterfuck, it was just terrible
JMS was pulled off of it to write the sequel to Earth One and Roberson took right over
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AriviaI Like A ChallengeEarth-1Registered Userregular
Right, there came a point where McDaniel said Rozum was hopping back between scripts for issues 4-6, instead of going straight forward (usually an overarching plot or overview is established, but you go issue by issue from there). And because McDaniel is the artist, having the writer be behind in his work means that McDaniel would lose time to draw pages, and that hurts McDaniel's bottom line for payment.
True. But the natural reaction would be to talk to the writer, not plot the arc behind his back with the editor.
Talking to the writer got DC troubles with the clusterfuck that was "Grounded." They want to ship things on time now, Rozum's fault if he couldn't cut it really.
Wait what
Grounded wasn't a clusterfuck, it was just terrible
JMS was pulled off of it to write the sequel to Earth One and Roberson took right over
Oh, I thought JMS had caused huge delays just by being slow.
That said, this also doubles as your monthly "Gail Simone is killing it on Batgirl and I am sorry you guys are not on the same page on this because it is fantastic." post.
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I mean it really is.
but judging from the sales figures, any new readers gained from the Reboot aren't really staying around. JL 4 sold 138k which is very good but just nothing amazing. Sales like that were around before and after the reboot.
The whole thing definitely has some quality stories within it, I don't think anyone would argue that it doesn't. But the only two that really feel like they are bold new versions of a character in a new universe are Wonder Woman and Action Comics. Everything else could have been done in the DCU, I think.
and if that is the case, why even reboot at all?
It would have been neat if dc had a more cohesive idea of pushing its universe in a single direction, but it felt like from the start the titles began to move in different directions almost as if being directed by entropy.
for example holding off adding some secondary characters so they can better characterize the new versions, and then organically add in side-kicks/villians/etc and even do new takes on old plot lines (similar but not the same). Instead you get this hodge podge collection of accepted continuities which fans just have to accept happened earlier.
so it went from a well known, if not always well defined universe, to everything is exciting and new anything great could happen, except wait, a and b carried over from before, but we arent really sure if we want C included or not yet. also we want liefield in on this.
me too, actually
Hadnt done that since... 2000?
hi-five!
95 for me
It had been 15 years since I bought a comic book.
So not everything is diving into the shitter
It is the 90's at DC again though
The best comics they are putting out right now are the ones by the, like, five or six actual top name writers that are doing the job right now
And a few other books that are surprisingly special
On that not I do think that Marvel has a much better pool of talent right now and that is probably why DC is having such problems.
It's a temporary short term solution reliant on a marketing gimmick for relaunching their entire universe. They can't do that every six months. They need long term solutions to stay relevant in the direct market or they'll return to No.2 again between gimicks forever.
Well, Bob Harass is their EIC.
That's good. But 5 or 6 is nothing in their 52 titles. They need to do better than that.
It's definitely a problem they need to solve.
I really think a Johns/Lee teaming for a Justice League story in the old DCU would have moved just as many copies as it did in September, maybe minus 5 thousand.
But if you asked me who meets the standard of those writers at Marvel? Oh man, Bendis, Fraction, Hickman, Brubaker, Aaron, Remender, Slott, Gage, Waid, Gillen, Parker, Pak, Van Lente, DnA... And half of those guys, five to ten years ago, weren't in mainstream comics. But Marvel have seen they are good, pulled them on board, and got them writing their top books.
I do think that Marvel has been much more dynamic in recent years than DC. Like, they have pushed on stories and the characters in ways that seem cool and organic, without really changing them beyond their core nature. Fantastic Four became the FF and they have brought in Alex Power and Leech and Dragon Man and so on. The Avengers had a big argument and split up, then fought, then got back together, and now have multiple teams going in multiple directions. The X-Men went to the West Coast, then to Utopia, and have now shifted partially back to Westchester. Asgard came to Earth, then got wrecked, and now is inhabited by all manner of beings and ruled by the All-Mothers. Things are happening and going places.
But that, to be, is symptomatic of the fact that Marvel's writing pool is equally dynamic and forward and they are great at getting new dudes to come in and write stuff. Which DC haven't, at the same time as they have a bit of a Silver Age and now 90's fetish going on, with a lack of dynamism in their storylines.
So yeah in retrospect, they rebooted the wrong thing. The good stories now could easily have been done pre-reboot, and probably better, since instead of books like JLI just feeling kind of generic we would be able to see that yeah Booster has grown up and yeah Generation Lost did happen and that is all a thing, so it all makes sense. They rebooted the characters, but the characters aren't the problem. The writers, and more specifically they way they handle those writers and advance their writing pool, is the problem. But that's a lot harder to change. DC took the easy, superficial route which didn't really solve any of the problems. It's not surprising that now it seems to be falling apart on them a little.
I am super-curious about how well trade sell, I really am
It wouldn't surprise me at all if the reduced sales of singles was concurrent with increased sales of trades.
And I also wonder why they don't release trade sales, and think that maybe it actually suits Marvel and DC to let people think that the industry is not doing that well, because then they will go out and spend more money on it. Maybe not. I dunno. But it does seem possible.
Full article on Scott's website
After everything has been said, it seems like a writer not being the correct choice for what DC wanted with Static, an eager artist turned co-writer who was getting shot down by the writer because it wasn't really his job to do anything but draw, and sales that didn't have any kind of traction or optimism to them.
And after reading #6, it does seem to coincide with what McDaniel wrote about Rozum having no endgame for the first arc, as it just kind of ends, but wraps up the Twin Sisters plot in what felt like the book was going to be cancelled with #6 anyways.
Secondly, that school idea is great, and if Rozum doesn't think so that is his loss
And thirdly it makes me sad that McDaniel put in a lot of effort to do the best he could, and basically got fucked for it.
So he just starts writing things like the villains' motivations and hierarchy, without consulting the writer, and then turning it into the editor? And then the editor has him begin plotting the series, from issue one? I don't see how this contradicts Rozum's story that he was being undermined by McDaniel and Richards, right from the start. Additionally, McDaniel's repeated insistence that he prove his value as a writer/contributor, hints that this was an ongoing thing.
I can see it from both sides here. If I was writing something, and an artist was constantly challenging me, and going around my back to ask the editor after I'd shot him down, I'd start to get annoyed with it. It's a fine line between being a good collaborator, and nitpicking the writer's ideas.
But, I can also see the artist wanting to collaborate and contribute, because nobody wants to draw something, that they're not having fun with.
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Yeah, this was me too. Although I'd probably stopped following monthly books a little later, 2007 or so. I was totally pulled back in by the reboot. My wife on the other hand, is on her way to becoming a huge comics fan thanks to the reboot. She's gotten to the point where she gives me a list of books to pick up for her as I head down to the LCS.
On the Rozum/McDaniel thing:
To me, that sounds like a break down on the Editorial side. An Editor's job (at least as far as comics goes) has always been to provide some direction and kind of give the team some cohesion if they lack it. Some parts of that story almost come off as Harvey playing McDaniel and Rozum against each other.
Could be that being an editor is a lost art. This seems to be the Day of the Superstar Writer/Artist/Whatever. I doubt many editors these days have it in them to reign a Morrison-type in.
I can understand an editor having a difficult time saying no to a super-star writer or artist. It's not good but it's logical. But this? It's a disgrace at the lowest level. Neither McDaniel or Rozum are super-stars. My guess is DC wants artists contributing more (not a bad thing) only they went too far with this. Makes me wonder what else is going on in other titles behind the scenes.
That said, both Rozum & Scott screwed up. Rozum should have said more to communicate why he didn't like Scott taking over* and McDaniel should know by now that writers are in charge of stories, not artists.
* assuming McDaniel's claims are true
And especially true about neither of those two being super-stars. Which might indicate a problem in how the Editor job is generally being perceived over there.
As we used to say in another little group I was part of, "it's a Top-Down organization and shit runs downhill."
My guess is in 10 or 20 years from now it will be very fascinating to hear exactly what happened during Harras' tenure at DC.
Coming back to this real quick ... I guess you can chalk me up in the heartless category, sirrah.
It's not that I thought they were bad characters. But I hated how much time/space they took up in JSA. Everything seemed to tie back to Stargirl.
For me, the JSA is characters I love that I don't normally get to see anywhere else: Hourman, Starman, Dr. Fate, Dr. Mid-nite, etc. Instead a lot of the last run seemed to be Jay, Alan and Ted telling Stargirl how awesome she was.
Resurrection Man was a good one and done, but also pretty aimless. I like this book, and it's easy enough to follow along with, but I wish more was happening.
Batwoman, GL, and Frankenstein were all great today. Top of their game.
Superboy is really weird to me. I like it, but I don't know if I'd still be reading it and Teen Titans if it wasn't part of the Super family of books. I picked this up because it's an S title with Silva's amazing art, and then I pick TT up because it's related to this, and then I will probably try a couple issues of Ravagers because it's related to this AND TT. I'm bad like that.
But the weird thing... Kon-El met Kara in this issue, and I don't remember if we have learned this before, but
So, now Kon-El is just kryptonian for "abomination in the house of El."
And Batman and Robin was good, but that's another book that has just been moving way too slow. 8 issues is far too many for an intro arc.
Kon-El's name origin in the past was pretty good, although I always liked to think he called himself Kon-El because the old Hawaii TV station's call letters were KONA-TV. Maybe Kesel planned that all along, crafty!
McDaniel plotted out several issues & got it okayed by the editor behind Rozum's back. How is that not taking the co-writing too far? You don't leave your series veteran writer out of the loop deliberately on stuff like that. He's not there to only execute McDaniel's plots, or at least that wasn't what Rozum signed up for.
This is particularly damning for McDaniel since he knew next to nothing about the series he was adapting IIRC.
The way McDaniel tells it, he only plotted those issues because Rozum hadn't and wasn't in a position to do so for any new 52 deadlines.
Like the editors had too much pull for certain lines, and like the editor in this case was the one pushing for McDaniel to be the writer because he thought McDaniel's ideas were more easy to digest and market friendly.
Now, I would say that's a very big part of why the book failed, because it was totally hollow and by the numbers. If the Sister subplot thing was Rozum's idea, then shame on him too. Ditto on the tax stamps or whatever.
It sounds like no one here had good ideas, and it was kind of visible. Sounds like Rozum wanted to age static and make him older, which is totally contrary to the idea of the relaunch, while McDaniel and the editor just had really basic ideas for what to do with the character.
It seems to me that Rozum probably has a cadence to his writing, that was simply at odds with what Richards, McDaniel, and DC Entertainment wanted, or one that they simply didn't understand. He wanted to do his thing, while McDaniel was happy to conform to DC's expectations. Fair enough. I'd argue that more interesting books come from the former approach than the latter. I mean, I don't want my favorite, quirky writers to have their style altered by someone who just doesn't get it. But ultimately, work-for-hire is work-for-hire, and if the boss says jump, you ask, "How high and would you like a shoulder rub while I'm up here?"
I've never read Xombi, or Static Shock. I do know that Xombi was met with a lot of acclaim, and Static Shock was not. I know both were commercial failures. I don't know the circumstances that led to the creation of either book, but clearly the process behind Xombi worked in at least one respect, and the process behind Static failed in both.
In the end, the work speaks for itself.
Oh, and Dan Jurgens just stated via Twitter that apparently this whole increased focus on increased collaboration, is intentional on DC's part.
I'm not sure I agree. Sometimes, you're just going to have two people, with way different approaches, and any compromise is just going to water down the final product. Sometimes, it's in each collaborator's best interest to just trust one another. Because ultimately, both are relying on the other, to make them look good.
That's not to say that the artist should have no input. A lot of writers, like Parker, Loeb, Hester, and Giffen, have commented on how they like to ask for their artist's input, so they can work stuff into the story that they'll enjoy drawing. But, sometimes an artist just needs to do what's in the script, whether they want to or not.
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DO NOT JACK WIT CHUPACOMICS
Cliff Chiang and Azzarello are a good example of this; Chiang went from being just the WW artist to now getting a co-writing credit starting with #7.
Jurgens and Giffen are in a particularly different spot because they are both good writers and artists, and maybe that is influencing their (in this case Jurgens') opinion too much, wanting to see another artist/writer hybrid to appear.
Sometimes an artist is interesting in writing, but they are actually pretty decent at it, and know that they can help and advise and stuff but the writer is the writer and they get to do the writing. That's fine too. Probably better, since an artist who is actively interested in the characters and plots being used will in all likelihood portray them well.
Sometimes an artist is interested in writing, and they are bad at it. After all, they are artists and art is what they do, not writing, maybe they just have no natural talent or skill, but decide to get involved anyway. And this is where the problems come in.
If you tell the artists to do art and nothing else, then you don't run the risk of 3 happening. But also, you lose 2 mostly as well, which is not good. If you don't, then 3 is more likely to happen, but 2 is also more likely to happen.
So I guess you base your policy on "how lucky do I feel"
True. But the natural reaction would be to talk to the writer, not plot the arc behind his back with the editor.
Talking to the writer got DC troubles with the clusterfuck that was "Grounded." They want to ship things on time now, Rozum's fault if he couldn't cut it really.
Actually Rozum had good ideas, he spoke about it in his blog IIRC. He wanted Static in Dakota, added Hardware to be his mentor and wanted to tie in the heroes from Milestone Media. Excluding Hardware, this was turned down by the editor.
Not sure what you meant by that.
How is communicating better with the writer not a productive measure for an artist if they don't know what's going on? Rozum and McDaniel's lack of communication is one reason why their Static failed IMO. This may have been the editor's intention, actually. I've heard some editors deliberately don't let the creators talk to each other to control the creative team they're supervising. That said, if Rozum was behind schedule I agree he should have stepped aside to let someone else plot & write the comic then come back when he's on schedule.
Grounded wasn't a clusterfuck, it was just terrible
JMS was pulled off of it to write the sequel to Earth One and Roberson took right over
Oh, I thought JMS had caused huge delays just by being slow.
That said, this also doubles as your monthly "Gail Simone is killing it on Batgirl and I am sorry you guys are not on the same page on this because it is fantastic." post.
Not killing it: George Perez
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