I viewed Jason in Morrison's run as a person reacting to the situation that his hated father-figure had died and had left an heir to the mantle that wasn't him. It seemed as if the character had descended a bit further into his own madness and was dealing with it by taking a drastic step in his ongoing quest to become a better Batman. Jason making a flashy new outfit and retooling his crusade after he lost the Battle for the Cowl is both a snub at Dick, whom he views as an inadiquate successor, as well as Bruce, whom he criticized for not being the Batman Gotham deserved.
I think in that context he kinda fits.
If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten in your presence.
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Garlic Breadi'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm aRegistered User, Disagreeableregular
Morrison's Red Hood was awful, and I usually love Morrison
I love Winick's Jason Todd, even if he's completely pandering
it stars a murderous ex-sidekick, an ex-heroin junkie archer and Starfire
While Teen Titans was definitely popular, which is partially why Cyborg is on the JL I am sure, it doesn't suddenly make Starfire a kids character and any book she stars in appropriate for 7 year olds. The whole thing is getting a little ridiculous.
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AriviaI Like A ChallengeEarth-1Registered Userregular
it stars a murderous ex-sidekick, an ex-heroin junkie archer and Starfire
While Teen Titans was definitely popular, which is partially why Cyborg is on the JL I am sure, it doesn't suddenly make Starfire a kids character and any book she stars in appropriate for 7 year olds. The whole thing is getting a little ridiculous.
it is rated t (on the cover and everything)
recovering sex slaves/heroin isn't generally stuff we find in teen lit right now
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AntimatterDevo Was RightGates of SteelRegistered Userregular
I really miss family friendly books being the norm.
it stars a murderous ex-sidekick, an ex-heroin junkie archer and Starfire
While Teen Titans was definitely popular, which is partially why Cyborg is on the JL I am sure, it doesn't suddenly make Starfire a kids character and any book she stars in appropriate for 7 year olds. The whole thing is getting a little ridiculous.
it is rated t (on the cover and everything)
recovering sex slaves/heroin isn't generally stuff we find in teen lit right now
Actually yes it is
Teens are watching/reading all sorts of stuff full of shit like that
I mean look at Twilight, it features violence, sex and a particuarly graphic birth scene that is way worse than anything I've read in "adult" horror novels. None of it is good, but it is popular.
Having graduated high school 2 years ago I can also say that some of the most popular books among my peers were the Crank/Speed/whatever novels that are literally all about drug addiction and written from the perspective of someone who is tripping balls.
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AriviaI Like A ChallengeEarth-1Registered Userregular
Oh, I was reading plenty of stuff like that when I was in my teens. I remember distinctly being quite confused by someone shooting up in a collection of short stories.
But teens reading appetites are transgressive and far beyond what's appropriate/targeted at them. If DC's going to bring up those kinds of issues to teens - when your average college student only has a rudimentary understanding of them - they need to do a better job of doing them justice and approaching them realistically.
Basically teens watch and read a ton of stuff that people think they don't. This generation in particular is super desensitized.
Now if Red Hood was marketed towards children and didn't feature a guy on the cover shooting people with guns and had dozens of murders in, like, the first 4 pages this would be different.
None of this invalidates the fact that Starfire wasn't written well at all, but bringing a 7-year-old into the discussion is just trashy.
Oh, I was reading plenty of stuff like that when I was in my teens. I remember distinctly being quite confused by someone shooting up in a collection of short stories.
But teens reading appetites are transgressive and far beyond what's appropriate/targeted at them. If DC's going to bring up those kinds of issues to teens - when your average college student only has a rudimentary understanding of them - they need to do a better job of doing them justice and approaching them realistically.
Man not everything needs to be a realistic interpretation
This is a comic book starring the guy that was Robin who was dead but isn't now and also talks to an invisible lady about the clan of monks in the Himilayas that taught him to murder people
Basically I think people are blowing it way out of proportion when really the only issue is that Starfire was written very poorly.
BlankZoe on
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AriviaI Like A ChallengeEarth-1Registered Userregular
Basically teens watch and read a ton of stuff that people think they don't. This generation in particular is super desensitized.
Now if Red Hood was marketed towards children and didn't feature a guy on the cover shooting people with guns and had dozens of murders in, like, the first 4 pages this would be different.
None of this invalidates the fact that Starfire wasn't written well at all, but bringing a 7-year-old into the discussion is just trashy.
wait, is that what you're referring to
because yes, the actual comic isn't appropriate - the writer admits as much in that article - but it's a reinforcement of how absurd the new Starfire is. If a child with the most basic grasp of cultural language and meaning can rip your concept to shreds, you're in trouble.
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AriviaI Like A ChallengeEarth-1Registered Userregular
Oh, I was reading plenty of stuff like that when I was in my teens. I remember distinctly being quite confused by someone shooting up in a collection of short stories.
But teens reading appetites are transgressive and far beyond what's appropriate/targeted at them. If DC's going to bring up those kinds of issues to teens - when your average college student only has a rudimentary understanding of them - they need to do a better job of doing them justice and approaching them realistically.
Man not everything needs to be a realistic interpretation
This is a comic book starring the guy that was Robin who was dead but isn't now and also talks to an invisible lady about the clan of monks in the Himilayas that taught him to murder people
It doesn't need to be! But you shouldn't be issuing comics that take stances on drug use and sex crimes to teenagers who don't have the critical background or focus to appreciate those issues, why they're brought up inside the comic itself, and the meaning of that incorporation.
Unless JL Dark is amazing I'm not going to put any on a preorder list or really expect to buy any new issues, and probably just trade wait
Animal Man
Swamp Thing
Frankenstein: Agent of SHADE
Wonder Woman
Demon Knights
... And see what I get from JLD.
I have no interest in the corporate subsidiary known as DC Entertainment, and I've had my say so far. So I'm going to read what I want and ignore everything else, and if DCE disappears tomorrow I'll find some other stories to amuse myself with, and they can keep the shit and gratuitous bullshit for someone else to "enjoy."
it stars a murderous ex-sidekick, an ex-heroin junkie archer and Starfire
While Teen Titans was definitely popular, which is partially why Cyborg is on the JL I am sure, it doesn't suddenly make Starfire a kids character and any book she stars in appropriate for 7 year olds. The whole thing is getting a little ridiculous.
I feel similar to this. I didn't really like the 7 year old article because it feels sort of like the writer is leading the girl to the responses she's looking at. And maybe the kid's seriously smart, but I can't believe someone is that verbose and well thought out at that age.
But the bigger point is that like Blankzilla said, the Starfire she liked and the Starfire that's been in the DC universe are not the same character. And it's not like you can honestly fault DC for not returning to a character from what, 10 year old cartoon series?
I think the bigger point that the article points out is that there's clearly a need for all ages/kids comic that DC doesn't seem to be meeting.
"Is this new Starfire someone you'd want to be when you grow up?"
*she gets uncomfortable again*"Not really. I mean, grown ups can wear what they want, but…she's not doing anything but wearing a tiny bikini to get attention."
"So, you know I'm going to put this on my blog right? (she nods) Is there anything else you want to say?"
"I want her to be a hero, fighting things and be strong and helping people."
"Why's that?"
"Because she's what inspires me to be good."
I may be alone here, but I'm not too interested in what a seven year old girl thinks about a character in a comic she shouldn't be reading in the first place. What are they going to do for the next interview, ask her what she thinks about Requiem for a Dream? If she didn't read the comic, then she has no place making any judgements on Starfire's characterization, personality, or heroism. All she can comment on is the character's ridiculous costume, which we don't need a kid to tell us is horrible.
I just think it's pretty lame to suggest that you can't make radical changes to a character just because she happened to be in an old cartoon show that ended in 2006.
Way to bring in those new readers!
Well, the Red Hood and the Outlaws isn't a book that is supposed to bring in new kid readers. I mean, it's a book about a group of mentally-damaged, disgraced superheroes waltzing around a foreign country killing large amounts of people while making quips. At the end of the book, their reward for indiscriminately killing such a large swath of people is a relaxing beach vacation.
To be fair, I haven't read to many books that I'd recommend for children. Before this reboot, I had no idea DC was so bloody and violent! o_O
Anyway, just because kids have fond memories of a character from one of the cartoons, doesn't mean that the character shouldn't be allowed to change in the comics. Characters should be allowed to evolve in different directions. I mean, let's be honest here. Even if there was more complexity to Starfire's characterization, this kid wouldn't have seen anything beyond her skimpy costume. A seven year old kid is also not going to understand that you're not supposed to want to be like Starfire from the book, which makes me question what the hell the point of this stupid article is in the first place.
I think you guys are focussing too much on the 7-year old's review. There are other more articulate criticisms of the new Starfire by adults. Try the links at the top of the 7-year old's blog post.
it stars a murderous ex-sidekick, an ex-heroin junkie archer and Starfire
Since it's a reboot, why do these characters have to be that way? I mean, DC editorial delted Lian wholesale, so they obviously have no problem playing fast and loose with continuity. So why not make a book with a more all-ages appeal to its characters and setting, rather than focusing so much on the 'dark' and 'mature' niche?
Am I the only one wondering how many more issues of Red Hood and Catwoman DC sold because of all this?
Because there is no real possible way they lost sells due to this.
Also the writer with a vendetta against DC coaching her seven year old daughter on the comic is quite cute, never mind she didn't pay attention to the ratings for the book and the Starfire in the cartoon and the comics were two very much different characters.
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AriviaI Like A ChallengeEarth-1Registered Userregular
Wow, these issues really are selling out well. I went by my LCS and found less than ten of the new DCU in stock.
it stars a murderous ex-sidekick, an ex-heroin junkie archer and Starfire
Since it's a reboot, why do these characters have to be that way? I mean, DC editorial delted Lian wholesale, so they obviously have no problem playing fast and loose with continuity. So why not make a book with a more all-ages appeal to its characters and setting, rather than focusing so much on the 'dark' and 'mature' niche?
They could have
they didn't though
it is silly to complain about a dream book that never existed
it would be different if pre-reboot there was a kid-friendly Starfire book or if they announced one and then cancelled it in favor of Red Hood but you're just playing what if
Wow, these issues really are selling out well. I went by my LCS and found less than ten of the new DCU in stock.
From many reports I've read most of the issues are selling out, whatever it is.
I doubt anyone expected the "reboot" to be this successful, that said it's success can be a bit limited as the best selling titles are only at 200,000 which isn't a lot when you think about it in the grand scheme of things.
Also have read more then a few people complaining about wanting to buy the books but even when they went to get them, they were sold out. Not the best way to attract new people when they can't even get the issues.
It is a lot given that most comics sell around 45k or less in todays market
launching 10 new ongoings with 200k sales(even if they had very lenient return policies) is a hell of an achievement.
It isn't a game changer but it is definitely a massive improvement over what DC was doing a month ago
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AriviaI Like A ChallengeEarth-1Registered Userregular
Apparently there's a month to two-month lead time on orders? If so I can't blame the shops for not being able to fix stocks, but I also hope DC will keep rolling reprints and make it clear it's coming. I know I'm still looking for some hard copy stuff.
it stars a murderous ex-sidekick, an ex-heroin junkie archer and Starfire
Since it's a reboot, why do these characters have to be that way? I mean, DC editorial delted Lian wholesale, so they obviously have no problem playing fast and loose with continuity. So why not make a book with a more all-ages appeal to its characters and setting, rather than focusing so much on the 'dark' and 'mature' niche?
They could have
they didn't though
it is silly to complain about a dream book that never existed
it would be different if pre-reboot there was a kid-friendly Starfire book or if they announced one and then cancelled it in favor of Red Hood but you're just playing what if
Why is it silly to want something else? Just because we are consumers does not mean we should be passive in what we consume.
Gridman! Baby DAN DAN! Baby DAN DAN!
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CorporateLogoThe toilet knowshow I feelRegistered Userregular
I have to wonder if these sales aren't a repeat of the speculator boom in the 90s
I'm still confused as to why DC doesn't push its Teen Titans all-ages books harder. Seriously, why haven't DC and Marvel pursued a relationship with Scholastic to publish their kid friendly books?
They are publishing a tie in comic to Young Justice.
And I believe DC and Marvel DO, or at least DID have contracts with Scholastic to have their kids line distributed in schools.
I have to wonder if these sales aren't a repeat of the speculator boom in the 90s
To some degree I'm sure they are but some of it is just the demand for these books as well which causes them to be so much if you look them up on Ebay. Supply and demand plays it's part. When you look at some comics out there like the original Ultimate Spider Man that comic goes for some good cash itself and it's not even really that old. Certain books always demand a certain price due to popularity, Marvel usually trumps DC on this.
Plus you got to remember the speculator boom of the 90's had books selling over a million copies. We're not even near that level at this point.
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CorporateLogoThe toilet knowshow I feelRegistered Userregular
I'm thinking more in terms of dudes buying a bunch of #1s because they're mistakenly under the impression they'll be worth thousands in a decade or two
Back in college I use to always be in the store on the day the new books came in, often talking with the owner. Because of that some times when freebies came in I got first choice on some stuff, he even let me buy the fancy cover of a red hot comic back in those days called Danger Girl.
It's always great being able to get new stuff as it comes in.
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AriviaI Like A ChallengeEarth-1Registered Userregular
edited September 2011
So Justice League Dark was fun.
I like how they use Madame Xanadu as the narrator and overarching framework - it's a clean mechanic, but it also really reinforces the arcane symbology. Poor Shade is so lonely. And as someone who hadn't run into the fabled Constantine before, it was really fun to see him get caught up in something way beyond his ken and simultaneously stuck out of his charlatan ways. A nice allusion to many themes of magic. I'm really looking forward to seeing what kind of trickery he pulls off. Ultimately, it was dark and shifty and worked really well!
....crap, Arivia, I thought I was only getting one comic today. (Read his wiki entry and it sold me on the character after seeing him in the JL cartoons and wondering what his deal was for real)
"Go down, kick ass, and set yourselves up as gods, that's our Prime Directive!"
Posts
I think in that context he kinda fits.
I love Winick's Jason Todd, even if he's completely pandering
Red Hood isn't a kids book
it isn't designed for kids
it stars a murderous ex-sidekick, an ex-heroin junkie archer and Starfire
While Teen Titans was definitely popular, which is partially why Cyborg is on the JL I am sure, it doesn't suddenly make Starfire a kids character and any book she stars in appropriate for 7 year olds. The whole thing is getting a little ridiculous.
it is rated t (on the cover and everything)
recovering sex slaves/heroin isn't generally stuff we find in teen lit right now
Teens are watching/reading all sorts of stuff full of shit like that
I mean look at Twilight, it features violence, sex and a particuarly graphic birth scene that is way worse than anything I've read in "adult" horror novels. None of it is good, but it is popular.
Having graduated high school 2 years ago I can also say that some of the most popular books among my peers were the Crank/Speed/whatever novels that are literally all about drug addiction and written from the perspective of someone who is tripping balls.
But teens reading appetites are transgressive and far beyond what's appropriate/targeted at them. If DC's going to bring up those kinds of issues to teens - when your average college student only has a rudimentary understanding of them - they need to do a better job of doing them justice and approaching them realistically.
Now if Red Hood was marketed towards children and didn't feature a guy on the cover shooting people with guns and had dozens of murders in, like, the first 4 pages this would be different.
None of this invalidates the fact that Starfire wasn't written well at all, but bringing a 7-year-old into the discussion is just trashy.
This is a comic book starring the guy that was Robin who was dead but isn't now and also talks to an invisible lady about the clan of monks in the Himilayas that taught him to murder people
Basically I think people are blowing it way out of proportion when really the only issue is that Starfire was written very poorly.
wait, is that what you're referring to
because yes, the actual comic isn't appropriate - the writer admits as much in that article - but it's a reinforcement of how absurd the new Starfire is. If a child with the most basic grasp of cultural language and meaning can rip your concept to shreds, you're in trouble.
It doesn't need to be! But you shouldn't be issuing comics that take stances on drug use and sex crimes to teenagers who don't have the critical background or focus to appreciate those issues, why they're brought up inside the comic itself, and the meaning of that incorporation.
Unless JL Dark is amazing I'm not going to put any on a preorder list or really expect to buy any new issues, and probably just trade wait
- Animal Man
- Swamp Thing
- Frankenstein: Agent of SHADE
- Wonder Woman
- Demon Knights
... And see what I get from JLD.I have no interest in the corporate subsidiary known as DC Entertainment, and I've had my say so far. So I'm going to read what I want and ignore everything else, and if DCE disappears tomorrow I'll find some other stories to amuse myself with, and they can keep the shit and gratuitous bullshit for someone else to "enjoy."
Indeed. It should've at least been rated Teen Plus, as Catwoman was.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/
I write about video games and stuff. It is fun. Sometimes.
Marvel Poker Game issues are also pretty awesome too. There's one in Spidey Unlimited that's one of my favorite stories out there.
Spidey owns his ass with a Flush , and then donates it to charity, grabbing just enough to buy MJ some flowers
I feel similar to this. I didn't really like the 7 year old article because it feels sort of like the writer is leading the girl to the responses she's looking at. And maybe the kid's seriously smart, but I can't believe someone is that verbose and well thought out at that age.
But the bigger point is that like Blankzilla said, the Starfire she liked and the Starfire that's been in the DC universe are not the same character. And it's not like you can honestly fault DC for not returning to a character from what, 10 year old cartoon series?
I think the bigger point that the article points out is that there's clearly a need for all ages/kids comic that DC doesn't seem to be meeting.
I may be alone here, but I'm not too interested in what a seven year old girl thinks about a character in a comic she shouldn't be reading in the first place. What are they going to do for the next interview, ask her what she thinks about Requiem for a Dream? If she didn't read the comic, then she has no place making any judgements on Starfire's characterization, personality, or heroism. All she can comment on is the character's ridiculous costume, which we don't need a kid to tell us is horrible.
I just think it's pretty lame to suggest that you can't make radical changes to a character just because she happened to be in an old cartoon show that ended in 2006.
Well, the Red Hood and the Outlaws isn't a book that is supposed to bring in new kid readers. I mean, it's a book about a group of mentally-damaged, disgraced superheroes waltzing around a foreign country killing large amounts of people while making quips. At the end of the book, their reward for indiscriminately killing such a large swath of people is a relaxing beach vacation.
To be fair, I haven't read to many books that I'd recommend for children. Before this reboot, I had no idea DC was so bloody and violent! o_O
Anyway, just because kids have fond memories of a character from one of the cartoons, doesn't mean that the character shouldn't be allowed to change in the comics. Characters should be allowed to evolve in different directions. I mean, let's be honest here. Even if there was more complexity to Starfire's characterization, this kid wouldn't have seen anything beyond her skimpy costume. A seven year old kid is also not going to understand that you're not supposed to want to be like Starfire from the book, which makes me question what the hell the point of this stupid article is in the first place.
Since it's a reboot, why do these characters have to be that way? I mean, DC editorial delted Lian wholesale, so they obviously have no problem playing fast and loose with continuity. So why not make a book with a more all-ages appeal to its characters and setting, rather than focusing so much on the 'dark' and 'mature' niche?
Batman
Batman and Robin
Demon Knights
Liked enough to keep buying for a few more issues:
Swamp Thing
Frankensteing Agent of S.H.A.D.E
Awaiting:
JLDark
Interest Growing for:
Action Comics
All the Westerns
Animal Man
Resurrection Man
And this is coming from someone who has not regularly read comics since he was a kid in the late 90s.
Xbox Live Gamertag: Suplex86
Because there is no real possible way they lost sells due to this.
Also the writer with a vendetta against DC coaching her seven year old daughter on the comic is quite cute, never mind she didn't pay attention to the ratings for the book and the Starfire in the cartoon and the comics were two very much different characters.
they didn't though
it is silly to complain about a dream book that never existed
it would be different if pre-reboot there was a kid-friendly Starfire book or if they announced one and then cancelled it in favor of Red Hood but you're just playing what if
From many reports I've read most of the issues are selling out, whatever it is.
I doubt anyone expected the "reboot" to be this successful, that said it's success can be a bit limited as the best selling titles are only at 200,000 which isn't a lot when you think about it in the grand scheme of things.
Also have read more then a few people complaining about wanting to buy the books but even when they went to get them, they were sold out. Not the best way to attract new people when they can't even get the issues.
launching 10 new ongoings with 200k sales(even if they had very lenient return policies) is a hell of an achievement.
It isn't a game changer but it is definitely a massive improvement over what DC was doing a month ago
Why is it silly to want something else? Just because we are consumers does not mean we should be passive in what we consume.
They are publishing a tie in comic to Young Justice.
And I believe DC and Marvel DO, or at least DID have contracts with Scholastic to have their kids line distributed in schools.
To some degree I'm sure they are but some of it is just the demand for these books as well which causes them to be so much if you look them up on Ebay. Supply and demand plays it's part. When you look at some comics out there like the original Ultimate Spider Man that comic goes for some good cash itself and it's not even really that old. Certain books always demand a certain price due to popularity, Marvel usually trumps DC on this.
Plus you got to remember the speculator boom of the 90's had books selling over a million copies. We're not even near that level at this point.
It's always great being able to get new stuff as it comes in.
Totally sticking with it.
....crap, Arivia, I thought I was only getting one comic today. (Read his wiki entry and it sold me on the character after seeing him in the JL cartoons and wondering what his deal was for real)