The cost of a Raven isn't much more than what it's costing you to scan instead of dropping a MULE; I think more Terrans should get them for reliable detection with their armies... pick off one observer and it's already essentially paid for itself, assuming you would have scanned to kill the obs in the first place. And then the array of fantastic abilities you get with having a Raven...
Great, now I'm giving them ideas.
a raven costs more and takes longer to build than an observer. 200 gas can't be gotten with mules, and it's time you aren't making medivacs or vikings.
also ravens are easy to snipe, easier than the other races mobile detection and harder to replace once you lose them.
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
I think a lot of non-Terran players underestimate how difficult it can be to find the time to swap out your starport to a tech lab and spend the time to make even just one raven, especially in TvP where you want all the medivacs and (often) vikings that you can get your hands on.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
personally, i amaze myself with how easily i switch between "guys lets try to understand the poor downtrodden terran players, it isnt all mules and marines all day" and "RRAAAAARRGGHHHH FUCK THEM IN THEIR ASSHOLES"
I think a lot of non-Terran players underestimate how difficult it can be to find the time to swap out your starport to a tech lab and spend the time to make even just one raven, especially in TvP where you want all the medivacs and (often) vikings that you can get your hands on.
I
I'm honestly not sure if this is sarcasm or not
I've been looking at it for probably three minutes and I just can't tell
You don't get to post consecutively a number of times equal to how many races you play.
From,
The Evergrowing Server Load
i keed
redraptor on
0
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
It isn't sarcasm. Ravens build very slowly, and even if you have the foresight to have an empty tech lab right next to your starport, you're looking at least a couple minutes of downtime on your starport to make a raven if you hadn't previously prepared for the need to make one.
of course, it may eventually come to pass that Terran players, as standard, have a single starport solely for making banshees and ravens during a game on top of other units, but that is a whole other story and requires even more sacrifices is other areas.
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
I think a lot of non-Terran players underestimate how difficult it can be to find the time to swap out your starport to a tech lab and spend the time to make even just one raven, especially in TvP where you want all the medivacs and (often) vikings that you can get your hands on.
I
I'm honestly not sure if this is sarcasm or not
I've been looking at it for probably three minutes and I just can't tell
You are trading a pair of medivacs/vikings for a raven in buildtime roughly (42s vs 60s). The floating time could easily be fixed with better planning.
A raven is an energy unit and has time value, meaning if it bakes and gets enough energy for two PDDs before that timing battle it is essentially two ravens. A very early raven could certainly have more utility than postponing say your 3rd and 4th medivac. Specifically because the energy accumulation of medivacs is usually not the biggest deal beyond the first couple.
The idea that it is super difficult to plan for that is a little silly, and the deeper you go in the game the more opportunities there is for them. Suggesting that every terran player hits their starport buildtimes so perfectly that they can't afford the time is a little off.
I mean obviously squeezing a Raven in quite early is a very specific build order choice, especially since you can reach them much faster than say an infestor The difference is that incorporating them too early is a little risky, since they don't seem always useful like an infestor. (was)
But people who never try grabbing a couple Ravens in a midgame lull versus stalker heavy Protoss, or a Zerg with good creep spread/burrow infestor harress/banelings/approaching hive tech, are just not thinking for themselves.
You don't need consistent pro-usage to adopt a unit. Isn't it enough that Nestea got stomped by Raven-Mech by a relative random.
They are so good, and I demand to see them used so they don't receive more buffs in an effort to spotlight them.
redraptor on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
so you are sacrificing 1.5 production cycles of 2x medivac or 2x viking for a unit which may or may not be useful in a specific situation.
I'm not saying that getting a raven is some huge sacrifice, but it is not as simple as "why don't more terran players build ravens".
The answer to that, of course, being that the units that are currently made out of starports are needed more often, in more different situations, and in greater quantities.
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited September 2011
early game starport timings are hit that solidly
you say this like no one has ever gotten a raven before. I have, they tend to die quickly (edit - worth noting the range on PDD is 3 and auto turret is 2) and not be worth it. a pdd is nice to have, but is it nicer than 2 vikings against colossus? no. is it nicer than 2 medivacs against templar? not to me.
I still say it is retarded that Fungal is a complete snare rather than just a movement-slowing effect. Buff the damage or duration if need be, but something that takes control completely away from your units is dumb as fuck. As a slow, at least, it could be worked around and would lead to some interesting micro, and it would still serve its current function of synergizing well with banelings, lings, and ultralisks.
Ehhhhhh
I'm pretty sure no one ever used Ensnare ever in the history of BW
I think it got use in zvz if people managed to not die to each other with muta scourge, then people would ensare the other mutas and all that jazz.
Although ensare didn't do damage, fungal still would in Dhal's proposed scenario I think.
I still say it is retarded that Fungal is a complete snare rather than just a movement-slowing effect. Buff the damage or duration if need be, but something that takes control completely away from your units is dumb as fuck. As a slow, at least, it could be worked around and would lead to some interesting micro, and it would still serve its current function of synergizing well with banelings, lings, and ultralisks.
Yeah wouldn't it suck if there was an ability in a game that pretty much negates your micro just from them clicking some buttons.
I'm pretty sure no one ever used Ensnare ever in the history of BW
I think it got use in zvz if people managed to not die to each other with muta scourge, then people would ensare the other mutas and all that jazz.
Although ensare didn't do damage, fungal still would in Dhal's proposed scenario I think.
Yeah, like once
But seriously, ensnare was almost never used. It got used in ZvT most of all, and you could probably count the number of televised matches with it post-2005 on your hands and feet. There's a Pimpest Play out there somewhere of a zerg using it on iloveoov's wraiths.
If ever a muta vs muta battle got that large and long, which was already rare because of how unstable ZvZ was, it was a better idea to go hive and get Defilers/Devourers.
FieryBalrog on
In Koprulu Sector, marines micro YOU!
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
The solution is to give reapers to Protoss and put them on a separate T3 building that only produces reapers for double the cost.
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
doesn't 1 reaper beat 1 helion?
for the cost I still agree, they're only good for keeping the enemy in their base and fast expanding but I'd rather 1 rax and then tech fast than spend any gas time on pure harass. early game is too dangerous imo.
Yeah, every decision after taking out the SCV's was terrible.
I mean, we all know mules and marines are silly, but July had that regardless and dropped the ball several times.
he did, but he could kinda be forgiven for letting his guard down after killing basically all of Terran's stuff and all his workers and just seeing, oh, well, he just has like 10 tier 1 50 mineral dudes left, this should be no problem right?
Posts
a raven costs more and takes longer to build than an observer. 200 gas can't be gotten with mules, and it's time you aren't making medivacs or vikings.
also ravens are easy to snipe, easier than the other races mobile detection and harder to replace once you lose them.
I
I'm honestly not sure if this is sarcasm or not
I've been looking at it for probably three minutes and I just can't tell
You don't get to post consecutively a number of times equal to how many races you play.
From,
The Evergrowing Server Load
of course, it may eventually come to pass that Terran players, as standard, have a single starport solely for making banshees and ravens during a game on top of other units, but that is a whole other story and requires even more sacrifices is other areas.
it's serious
A raven is an energy unit and has time value, meaning if it bakes and gets enough energy for two PDDs before that timing battle it is essentially two ravens. A very early raven could certainly have more utility than postponing say your 3rd and 4th medivac. Specifically because the energy accumulation of medivacs is usually not the biggest deal beyond the first couple.
The idea that it is super difficult to plan for that is a little silly, and the deeper you go in the game the more opportunities there is for them. Suggesting that every terran player hits their starport buildtimes so perfectly that they can't afford the time is a little off.
I mean obviously squeezing a Raven in quite early is a very specific build order choice, especially since you can reach them much faster than say an infestor The difference is that incorporating them too early is a little risky, since they don't seem always useful like an infestor. (was)
But people who never try grabbing a couple Ravens in a midgame lull versus stalker heavy Protoss, or a Zerg with good creep spread/burrow infestor harress/banelings/approaching hive tech, are just not thinking for themselves.
You don't need consistent pro-usage to adopt a unit. Isn't it enough that Nestea got stomped by Raven-Mech by a relative random.
They are so good, and I demand to see them used so they don't receive more buffs in an effort to spotlight them.
I'm not saying that getting a raven is some huge sacrifice, but it is not as simple as "why don't more terran players build ravens".
The answer to that, of course, being that the units that are currently made out of starports are needed more often, in more different situations, and in greater quantities.
you say this like no one has ever gotten a raven before. I have, they tend to die quickly (edit - worth noting the range on PDD is 3 and auto turret is 2) and not be worth it. a pdd is nice to have, but is it nicer than 2 vikings against colossus? no. is it nicer than 2 medivacs against templar? not to me.
and in what world is 42s roughly 60s?
I think it got use in zvz if people managed to not die to each other with muta scourge, then people would ensare the other mutas and all that jazz.
Although ensare didn't do damage, fungal still would in Dhal's proposed scenario I think.
Despite always win win win.
I sorry made post.
Yeah wouldn't it suck if there was an ability in a game that pretty much negates your micro just from them clicking some buttons.
Oh yeah, FF.
Yeah, like once
But seriously, ensnare was almost never used. It got used in ZvT most of all, and you could probably count the number of televised matches with it post-2005 on your hands and feet. There's a Pimpest Play out there somewhere of a zerg using it on iloveoov's wraiths.
If ever a muta vs muta battle got that large and long, which was already rare because of how unstable ZvZ was, it was a better idea to go hive and get Defilers/Devourers.
I'm really not angry.
To be fair though, HoN just gets me mad if I'm not playing with people I know pretty much all the time.
Trying to shift back to SC2 but I don't like playing it unless I've got time for a good few games.
Wait until you check your battle.net account again, only to see nothing.
I'm so mad.
Watching July and HongUn then Turning The Stream On GomTvT Off Even Though There Are Not Only Terrans Today
Someone post when Genius is playing afterwards, please.
Actually just post when Protosses are playing.
The day where you have to pin all your hopes on Genius and HongUn advancing.
Not that they won't do it, but if they do it'll probably be in a retarded way.
are these the first code S games since korea got the patch? I think so...
For when Dhal asks:
I offer a second haiku.
u mad u mad bro
u mad bro bro u mad bro
mad mad bro bro bro
You're a bronze leaguer at this Seg.
Probably don't view this at work but it isn't too bad?
code S Round of 16
IM_Mvp Jung, Jong-Hyun[] vs []StarTale_Bomber Choi, Ji-Sung
TSL_Clide Han, Kyu-Jong[] vs []SlayerS_Ryung Kim, Dong-Won
SlayerS_MMA Mun, Seong-Won[] vs []FXO_asd Lee, Dae-Jin
FF3 (6) talk on GSL. Tastosis are undeniably the best. Ever.
for the cost I still agree, they're only good for keeping the enemy in their base and fast expanding but I'd rather 1 rax and then tech fast than spend any gas time on pure harass. early game is too dangerous imo.
that's what artosis said after, I wasn't paying attention
I mean, we all know mules and marines are silly, but July had that regardless and dropped the ball several times.
he did, but he could kinda be forgiven for letting his guard down after killing basically all of Terran's stuff and all his workers and just seeing, oh, well, he just has like 10 tier 1 50 mineral dudes left, this should be no problem right?