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Breaking Bad

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Posts

  • AvrahamAvraham Registered User regular
    Walt is a villain who is the protagonist, Gus is a villain in the antagonist role
    Doing things which oppose the goals of the protagonists I don't think automatically makes a character a villain. It makes them part of the ensemble. Maybe one good way to define a main villain is whether stopping him will allow the heroes to overcome all their major obstacles

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  • LarlarLarlar consecutive normal brunches Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Buttlord wrote: »
    Larlar wrote: »
    Isn't an antihero just a main character with no redeeming qualities or virtues?

    not really because being the main character doesn't make you the hero

    I don't see how that matters. You don't have to be considered an immoral hero to be an antihero. It's not a strictly literal designation.

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  • AvrahamAvraham Registered User regular
    Not sure how'd I define anti-hero, seems like a broad category that includes all kinds of unconventional heroes

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  • LarlarLarlar consecutive normal brunches Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited May 2013
    Honestly, my understanding is that it's acceptable to use "antihero" as a synonym of "villain" in instances where the villain is the protagonist. But I'm not an English major so I'm just going to put this down and go play in the street.

    Larlar on
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  • GoatmonGoatmon Property of Amara_P Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    To be fair, Walt has put himself on the line for Jessie repeatedly throughout the show.

    He went out of his way to get Jessie back to working with him, and then when Jessie started going down a very bad road, Walt beat him to it so that Jessie wouldn't have to.

    The guy has become seriously evil, but he does look out for his own. He's also got massive anger/pride issues and doesn't fully understand his own motivations at times.

    Goatmon on
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  • MarthMarth Registered User regular
    Buttlord wrote: »
    my absolute favorite moments in breaking bad are the two times that jesse calls walt by his first name

    there's this bizarre father-son dynamic at play, jesse respects/fears walt

    and then that all stops

    and it's the perfect way to illustrate how little of a fuck jesse gives anymore

    Wait, when did these moments happen?

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  • AntimatterAntimatter Registered User regular
    Marth wrote: »
    Buttlord wrote: »
    my absolute favorite moments in breaking bad are the two times that jesse calls walt by his first name

    there's this bizarre father-son dynamic at play, jesse respects/fears walt

    and then that all stops

    and it's the perfect way to illustrate how little of a fuck jesse gives anymore

    Wait, when did these moments happen?
    i think once in the RV and once after the fight between Jessie and Walt

  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades 地獄のようにかわいい あなたは嫉妬深いかRegistered User regular
    Mr. G wrote: »
    I have a friend who argues that because you don't want Walt to win anymore, they have ruined his character

    The lead character of a show should be someone you identify with and root for, if the central character of a show is someone you don't want to win anymore they have irreparably fucked up the show

    He also argues that the last episode of Season 4 was a giant mistake that has caused the show to go downhill incredibly fast

    Tell your friend that Richard III is a classic work by William Fucking Shakespeare, and that Richard as a character is an unsympathetic, power-hungry murdering dickbag from the very beginning of that work. Main characters in literature being unsympathetic or someone you root against is not a new, novel thing that we have to rail against. Not every work has to follow a paragon of goodness as they conquer evil.

    I mean, unless he knows better than William Shakespeare.

    And there are many, many other examples that predate him as well.

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  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades 地獄のようにかわいい あなたは嫉妬深いかRegistered User regular
    Larlar wrote: »
    Honestly, my understanding is that it's acceptable to use "antihero" as a synonym of "villain" in instances where the villain is the protagonist. But I'm not an English major so I'm just going to put this down and go play in the street.

    He could definitely be called an anti-hero all the way through the fourth season, as long as by anti-hero you mean he's not a good guy but he's generally struggling against people worse than he is, making him pretty much the lesser of two evils.

    Fifth season so far spoilers:
    But by the fifth season, he has become the villain of the story and I think "villain protagonist" definitely fits more than "anti-hero".

    ジェイムズ・ブラウンの好きな色は何ですか?
    青!
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades 地獄のようにかわいい あなたは嫉妬深いかRegistered User regular
    I mean,
    the antagonists in the 5th season are pretty much the cops (who we should be rooting for because Walt is a murderer), Jesse (who finally decided Walt had become too frightening to be around, and is starting to get his shit together), and his own family, who he thinks are standing in the way of his rise to power as he builds what he sees as a legacy.

    Walter White is the villain of Breaking Bad at this point.

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    青!
  • MarthMarth Registered User regular
    On an all-new episode of AMC's "Borking Berd"

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  • FAQFAQ Registered User regular
    Buttlord wrote: »
    Larlar wrote: »
    Isn't an antihero just a main character with no redeeming qualities or virtues?

    not really because being the main character doesn't make you the hero

    anti hero is not a hero or variety of hero. Its a protagonist who is somewhat to complete bastard

    LarlarTefN1tSt4lker
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Larlar wrote: »
    Buttlord wrote: »
    Larlar wrote: »
    Isn't an antihero just a main character with no redeeming qualities or virtues?

    not really because being the main character doesn't make you the hero

    I don't see how that matters. You don't have to be considered an immoral hero to be an antihero. It's not a strictly literal designation.

    Walt isn't doing things for noble reasons. Not since he went full Heisenberg. It was about keeping his turf, retaining power and having control. Half the shit with Gus was bad decisions from Walt and/or Jesse, which escalated into all-out war.
    Goatmon wrote: »
    To be fair, Walt has put himself on the line for Jessie repeatedly throughout the show.

    He went out of his way to get Jessie back to working with him, and then when Jessie started going down a very bad road, Walt beat him to it so that Jessie wouldn't have to.

    The guy has become seriously evil, but he does look out for his own. He's also got massive anger/pride issues and doesn't fully understand his own motivations at times.

    He's not afraid to manipulate or control Jesse for his own agenda. He hates it when other people do it.
    Poisoning Brock, for example. He's "looked out for his own" by corrupting and terrorizing his wife so much she tried to commit suicide and is terrified of him.

  • GoatmonGoatmon Property of Amara_P Registered User regular
    I forgot to ad that I was speaking about just seasons 1-4.

    He's pretty much become a total monster in 5.

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  • GoatmonGoatmon Property of Amara_P Registered User regular
    Like, as bad as he was by the end of 4, he was dealing with Gus, who was undeniably the most evil dude in the show.

    I mean, Walt has done some heinous shit, but he's never straight-up murdered anyone just to scare the shit out of somebody.

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  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades 地獄のようにかわいい あなたは嫉妬深いかRegistered User regular
    Goatmon wrote: »
    Like, as bad as he was by the end of 4, he was dealing with Gus, who was undeniably the most evil dude in the show.

    I mean, Walt has done some heinous shit, but he's never straight-up murdered anyone just to scare the shit out of somebody.

    Regardless of his reasons,
    he has murdered a shitload of people just to keep from getting caught

    which, in my book, is just as horrendous

    ジェイムズ・ブラウンの好きな色は何ですか?
    青!
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Goatmon wrote: »
    Like, as bad as he was by the end of 4, he was dealing with Gus, who was undeniably the most evil dude in the show.
    Walt's taken the crown in season 5. Then there's Tucco. Mike's a disturbing individual, too.
    I mean, Walt has done some heinous shit, but he's never straight-up murdered anyone just to scare the shit out of somebody.

    True.

  • Mr. GMr. G Registered User regular
    Goatmon wrote: »
    Like, as bad as he was by the end of 4, he was dealing with Gus, who was undeniably the most evil dude in the show.

    I mean, Walt has done some heinous shit, but he's never straight-up murdered anyone just to scare the shit out of somebody.

    Neither has Gus. At least, not then.
    Victor had to go. He had been seen at the crime scene, he left his car at the scene, and he starting cooking without permission. He stepped way outside his boundaries and he had to go.

    It just happened that it also worked to send a message.

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  • GoatmonGoatmon Property of Amara_P Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    Mike isn't really evil.

    Most definitely a bad guy. But he doesn't really have any malice in the work he does. Doesn't really seem to get thrills out of it, at least not by the time we get to know him.

    It's just a job to him, and he knows his place. He's pretty much fine just being a cog in the machine, getting his pay and going home and having a beer.

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  • Mr. GMr. G Registered User regular
    Mike also doesn't pretend that he's not the bad guy, whereas that's the core of Walt's being

    Denying he's the bad guy

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  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades 地獄のようにかわいい あなたは嫉妬深いかRegistered User regular
    Goatmon wrote: »
    Mike isn't really evil.

    Most definitely a bad guy. But he doesn't really have any malice in the work he does. Doesn't really seem to get thrills out of it, at least not by the time we get to know him.

    It's just a job to him, and he knows his place. He's pretty much fine just being a cog in the machine, getting his pay and going home and having a beer.

    Ehh. The Nuremberg Defense didn't work for soldiers following orders, I don't see how it would excuse someone following the orders of a murdering scofflaw.

    Not to say that Mike isn't likable, but the fact that he's smart, affable, capable and has his own internal guidelines and morality (which he breaks thanks to the influence of a pretty major character) just makes him a likable Lawful Evil character, not a neutral party.

    ジェイムズ・ブラウンの好きな色は何ですか?
    青!
  • LarlarLarlar consecutive normal brunches Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited May 2013
    @FAQ, you're the only one that understands

    run away with me to antihero isle

    we can raise the most beautiful supporting character children and no one will ever care what classically heroic values they exhibit, if any

    Larlar on
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  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades 地獄のようにかわいい あなたは嫉妬深いかRegistered User regular
    Larlar I agree with you somewhat on the anti-hero thing too!
    But he is pretty much just the bad guy now in the 5th season

    ジェイムズ・ブラウンの好きな色は何ですか?
    青!
  • LarlarLarlar consecutive normal brunches Moderator, ClubPA mod
    But part of my stance is that those two statements are interchangeable.

    protagonist bad guy = antihero

    Do you see now why you cannot come with us to antihero isle, where the finest luxuries will always at least partially be made from the bones of freshly murdered nuns?

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  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Goatmon wrote: »
    Mike isn't really evil.

    Most definitely a bad guy. But he doesn't really have any malice in the work he does. Doesn't really seem to get thrills out of it, at least not by the time we get to know him.

    It's just a job to him, and he knows his place. He's pretty much fine just being a cog in the machine, getting his pay and going home and having a beer.

    He's banal evil.

  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades 地獄のようにかわいい あなたは嫉妬深いかRegistered User regular
    edited May 2013
    I think that's a perfectly valid use of the term anti-hero

    I think that just calling him a villain is simpler, because it really doesn't matter to me if he's the one we are following the story arc of

    But I'm not going to straight up say you're wrong because you aren't

    joshofalltrades on
    ジェイムズ・ブラウンの好きな色は何ですか?
    青!
  • LarlarLarlar consecutive normal brunches Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Fine, you can come. But you have to kill your own nuns.

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  • PoorochondriacPoorochondriac Ah, man Ah, jeezRegistered User regular
    I guess I just think "anti-hero" is a really weird word, because we already have "protagonist" and "antagonist" to define roles i/r/t to story structure/focus, and "hero" and "villain" to describe overall morality. And some folks seem to be using "anti-hero" to mean evil protagonist, and some folks seem to be using it to mean flawed-good-person, and the whole thing's turning into a big mess because it's an ill-defined term.l

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  • I Win SwordfightsI Win Swordfights all the traits of greatness starlight at my feetRegistered User regular
    I have actually heard someone say "what that wasn't rape they're married"

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  • UrielUriel Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    I have actually heard someone say "what that wasn't rape they're married"

    No.

    I'm sory bry I don't believe a real person could say this.

    Uriel on
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  • BubbyBubby Registered User regular
    Goatmon wrote: »
    I forgot to ad that I was speaking about just seasons 1-4.

    He's pretty much become a total monster in 5.

    I agree. Even by the end of 4 I was defending him, but now... not so much.

  • Clint EastwoodClint Eastwood My baby's in there someplace She crawled right inRegistered User regular
    I know lots of people who think that way. All men, natch

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  • I Win SwordfightsI Win Swordfights all the traits of greatness starlight at my feetRegistered User regular
    Uriel wrote: »
    I have actually heard someone say "what that wasn't rape they're married"

    No.

    I'm sory bry I don't believe a real person could say this.

    It's sweet that this is where you draw the line on real people saying horrible things

    I encourage you to never drink with marines who are fans of the show

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  • AvrahamAvraham Registered User regular
    Hey now, Tucco and Gus have redeeming qualities. They can cook a helluva good meal.

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  • AvrahamAvraham Registered User regular
    Uriel wrote: »
    I have actually heard someone say "what that wasn't rape they're married"

    No.

    I'm sory bry I don't believe a real person could say this.

    I have unfortunate news for you

    http://publicshaming.tumblr.com/tagged/steubenville

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  • DodgeBlanDodgeBlan PSN: dodgeblanRegistered User regular
    I don't recall rape? I do remember some sort of sexual assault type situation but I don't think it went that far?

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  • TefTef Registered User regular
    Walt is absolutely an anti-hero. That is the term to describe a protagonist who lacks what we traditionally acknowledge as heroic qualities to varying degrees.

    If we want to have a hero/anti-hero discussion with regard to Walter White/Heisenberg as part of a larger discussion on the duality of the character, sure, but to try and say Bryan Cranston's character is not an anti-hero belies a lack of understanding of what an anti-hero is

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  • balerbowerbalerbower Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    DodgeBlan wrote: »
    I don't recall rape? I do remember some sort of sexual assault type situation but I don't think it went that far?

    the idea's the same. men are completely absolved in either case cause their beastly sexual acts are "only natural" and "expected"

    basically, all agency is put on the woman: "she should've known better"

    and that conception is incredibly warped

    balerbower on
  • VeldrinVeldrin Sham bam bamina Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    The show is about bad guys bad guying and trying to out bad guy the other bad guys, while dealing with their own bad guy problems.

    Veldrin on
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  • mrt144mrt144 King of the Numbernames Registered User regular
    Goatmon wrote: »
    Like, as bad as he was by the end of 4, he was dealing with Gus, who was undeniably the most evil dude in the show.

    I mean, Walt has done some heinous shit, but he's never straight-up murdered anyone just to scare the shit out of somebody.

    Nope, he just
    poisoned a child in a Machiavellian scheme

This discussion has been closed.