A lot of people consider the religion they were raised on to be part of their identity even if they disagree with major tenets of it.
Its stupid but true.
I refer to myself as a recovering baptist. I've met a lot of folks that use the phrase recovering catholic as well.
Edit: I guess my point is that you can have it be part of your identity and disagree with huge portions of it and that isn't insane so long as you walk away from the church.
It's no more stupid then considering being American to be a part of their identity despite all the horrid shit the US has done over the years.
...Except that you can walk away from the religion anytime you wish (...though, I hear your local Mormon branch will make it anything but easy).
You can't really 'walk away' from your national citizenship.
Who said anything about giving up your citizenship? I said "consider being an american a part of your identity". Or "being proud to be american" or anything with similar meaning.
I doubt you'll find a ton of people even here, where information about just how fucking awful US actions have been and still are in some cases, who will say "I hate being an american" or the like. Or who really wish they could leave.
No, most will very likely tell you they want to make America a better place.
Its stupid when they disagree with the church about basically everything.
Do they disagree with their religion about everything though?
I mean, how is a practicing Catholic who belives in God/Jesus/all that shit but disapproves of the Catholic Church's handling of the whole molestation debacle any different from an American who disagrees with the country's foreign policy but still identifies with their country?
Like pretty much any orginization, people identify as part of the group without agreeing with everything it does.
I honestly think him being a Mormon is a problem. Especially as someone who support gays marriage, mormons as a religion have been putting their money in other states to overturn gay marriage (california, iowa) so its a huge negative to me he supports their church.
I'd rather vote for a mormon than a catholic.
I mean the mormon church's efforts to ban gay marriage are slimy. But the catholic church has institutionalized child molestation and works to prevent condom use in aids-ravaged sub-Saharan Africa.
I think what Rick Perry is saying is "You'd have to be drunk to vote for me. And since you are drunk, you won't show up to vote until after the election is over. Also, I may be drunk right now."
A majority of voters (53%) report that they would be somewhat or very comfortable with a Mormon serving as President, although more than 4-in-10 (42%) say that a Mormon president would make them somewhat or very uncomfortable.
That's huge. And it may partially explain why the GOP primary has been a constant churn of Anybody-But-Mitt contenders.
You know, I've been seeing several billboards around ATL that seem to have the sole purpose of showing that mormons are like everyone else. I kind of thing that those kinds of things are related to the campaign since it's the bible belt.
I am not sure that an ad campaign will work against something like, but all they'd really need is some sort of Frank Luntz style disingenuous re-branding like he did with 'death taxes.' Change Mormon to "Americo-Christian," wrap it in a flag and no more worries.
They have those up here in Seattle, too. There are also a set of TV Commercials making the rounds.
I hadn't connected it with Mittens until just now, but I could see this sudden blast of national "Mormons are just like everyone else!" advertising being at least partially related to Mitt's campaign.
Really, I just thought it was slimy as fuck to advertise your church on TV.
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
They have those up here in Seattle, too. There are also a set of TV Commercials making the rounds.
I hadn't connected it with Mittens until just now, but I could see this sudden blast of national "Mormons are just like everyone else!" advertising being at least partially related to Mitt's campaign.
Really, I just thought it was slimy as fuck to advertise your church on TV.
I can remember LDS commercials as far back as the 80s... and that's only because that's as far back as I go :P
Then why the fuck is he a mormon? Stupid bigotry is kinda a super important part of their religion. Find me a mormon who doesn't think every gay is going to burn in hell, please.
I was brought up in a Mormon family, and this isn't true. Mormons believe that being gay is totally fine (and is NOT a choice), as long as you don't act on sexual desire. The church has gay members who are willing to make that sacrifice, believe it or not. It's a massive caveat, but hey, it's a pretty progressive position as far as religion goes.
Mormons certainly have a history of bigotry, but that's something they've been actively leaving behind. The last time there was anything close to that was one of the general conferences within the last few years when one of the ancient, cranky old men in the Quorum of the Twelve decided to get up on the stage and talk about how he thought homosexuality was of the devil. There was some damage control there. They cut part of his speech, went back and edited those parts out in the transcripts that were sent out.
With the whole Prop 8 thing, I think they realized afterward how massively they'd fucked up by funneling money. There have been some signs that they've been trying to back away from that and maybe re-asses getting involved with politics. All these billboards and youtube advertisements have been going on for a couple of years in an attempt to fix their image in the wake of all that.
The church is a corporation (literally), so they do sometimes operate like this.
Anyway, sorry for the tangent. I haven't been Mormon since age 18, but I still get annoyed at the blatant misinformation and assumptions that pop up from time to time.
Oh, I'm sorry, It's totally fine to feel a certain way as long as you never ever ever get to act on it. That totally doesn't make you a second-class citizen.
Like with any religion, there's the mainstream which is usually filled with pretty cool people. Then there are the fundies who are fucking insane and wish to kill or cause great harm to anyone who isn't in their cult.
Mormons have them, Christians have them, and of course as the GOP is quick to remind us, Islam has them too.
Buddhism even! The Buddhists of Sri Lanka would have made the Buddha cry with their wanton bigotry and violence.
"Simple, real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time." -Mustrum Ridcully in Terry Pratchett's Hogfather p. 142 (HarperPrism 1996)
Oh, I'm sorry, It's totally fine to feel a certain way as long as you never ever ever get to act on it. That totally doesn't make you a second-class citizen.
Yeah, no change, still massive bigots.
Not arguing that it's not ridiculous, just telling you that there's no "burn in hell" consequence for being gay. Mormons don't even believe in the sort of traditional Catholic hell.
And yea, in the spectrum of religion? This is a totally progressive stance. In a secular setting it's obviously not.
Then why the fuck is he a mormon? Stupid bigotry is kinda a super important part of their religion. Find me a mormon who doesn't think every gay is going to burn in hell, please.
I was brought up in a Mormon family, and this isn't true. Mormons believe that being gay is totally fine (and is NOT a choice), as long as you don't act on sexual desire. The church has gay members who are willing to make that sacrifice, believe it or not. It's a massive caveat, but hey, it's a pretty progressive position as far as religion goes.
Yeah, this is the antithesis of being progressive. The church is trying to hide their bigotry by claiming that they are simply upholding their "proclamation of the family" which states (from God) that sexual relations are only between a man and a woman in marriage, and that homosexual relations are looked upon as no different or more sinful than adultery or premarital sex.
But the church has also not spent millions of members' dollars trying to outlaw the last two, so I'll let their actions speak for them as to which they truly detest more.
Also, the church used pretty much the same excuse (God told us/Joseph Smith said so) to justify their exclusion of blacks from full church benefits for decades. True, it was even more complicated and tortured then with discussions of the pre-existence and how black people had sinned before they were even born.
But in essence it's no different to the attitude of Catholicism towards homosexuality. Homosexual urges and thoughts aren't sinful but acting upon them is. How is the Mormon stance any more progressive?
But in essence it's no different to the attitude of Catholicism towards homosexuality. Homosexual urges and thoughts aren't sinful but acting upon them is. How is the Mormon stance any more progressive?
Don't know anything about Catholicism's stance on the issue, but if this is the case, then they're obviously on par.
Oh, I'm sorry, It's totally fine to feel a certain way as long as you never ever ever get to act on it. That totally doesn't make you a second-class citizen.
Yeah, no change, still massive bigots.
Not arguing that it's not ridiculous, just telling you that there's no "burn in hell" consequence for being gay. Mormons don't even believe in the sort of traditional Catholic hell.
And yea, in the spectrum of religion? This is a totally progressive stance. In a secular setting it's obviously not.
Why do you get to restrict the yardstick like that? The presidency is a secular office.
I have no doubt that people in fundamentalist Muslim theocracies who think women shouldn't be forced to marry their rapists but also shouldn't be able to drive or vote are progressive within the "spectrum of religion" as they know it. That doesn't make their position any more forgivable to the rest of the world.
Just popping by to wave a little flag here to remind people that the subject of this thread is primary elections, and since one of the candidates is Mormon, a little discussion on Mormonism and how it affects Romney's chances of winning the primary is inevitable. If it's not immediately apparent how your post on Mormonism relates to a candidate or electorate, though, you're probably leading the thread off-topic.
And how long has it been since we made it a full 100 pages in an American political thread before we were shut down for meandering hopelessly off topic or for uncivil discourse? We're so close to the finish line!
Oh, I'm sorry, It's totally fine to feel a certain way as long as you never ever ever get to act on it. That totally doesn't make you a second-class citizen.
Yeah, no change, still massive bigots.
Not arguing that it's not ridiculous, just telling you that there's no "burn in hell" consequence for being gay. Mormons don't even believe in the sort of traditional Catholic hell.
And yea, in the spectrum of religion? This is a totally progressive stance. In a secular setting it's obviously not.
Why do you get to restrict the yardstick like that? The presidency is a secular office.
Was only jumping in to clarify theology. Wasn't related to the presidency, which is why I mentioned it was tangential at the end of the post, and why we should probably just leave it for now.
But in essence it's no different to the attitude of Catholicism towards homosexuality. Homosexual urges and thoughts aren't sinful but acting upon them is. How is the Mormon stance any more progressive?
Don't know anything about Catholicism's stance on the issue, but if this is the case, then they're obviously on par.
Catholocism's stance is actually that homosexual urges and thoughts are sinful. The desire is as bad as the action and still requires confession and repentance. The mormon stance is essentially equivalent to the one held by Judaism, albeit with slightly different spins of why you shouldn't have gay sexytimes.
So rick perry goofed again saying that people in new hampshire should vote on november 12th but only those of legal drinking age. I can already see the conservative spin. "Sure maybe they vote on the 12th in one of Obamas 57 states!"
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
They have those up here in Seattle, too. There are also a set of TV Commercials making the rounds.
I hadn't connected it with Mittens until just now, but I could see this sudden blast of national "Mormons are just like everyone else!" advertising being at least partially related to Mitt's campaign.
Really, I just thought it was slimy as fuck to advertise your church on TV.
Of course, based on the whole California thing, that could mean that the Mormon church is trying to gather power to itself on a more active basis, which is effing creepy.
So rick perry goofed again saying that people in new hampshire should vote on november 12th but only those of legal drinking age. I can already see the conservative spin. "Sure maybe they vote on the 12th in one of Obamas 57 states!"
I linked a youtube of that on the last page. I was bored so I read some of the comments, I think I got through about 5 before someone brought that up.
Perry's goof was... weird. What was he thinking when he said 21, and shouldn't he focus on winning a single primary contest (which doesn't look likely at this point) before he tries to generate votes in the general?
I almost wonder if Perry really didn't want to run and is just tanking his campaign on purpose.
Also: The general is on November 6th. Maybe he meant a primary? Well, the only Tuesday the 12th in primary season is in June.
So what you're saying is Mormon's believe that God creates gay people, but forbids them from actually 'being' gay? God is a dick, man.
Mormons see it as a "test," just like all sin (and life in general), but that ties into their whole view of pre-existence.
But yea. This stuff is right in line for the same God who likes to sick bears on children.
Anyway, I feel like this idea that Mormonism is going to be a problem for Romney among the right is a bit overstated. The irrational hatred of Obama will probably overcome any misgivings about his religion. The justification will probably be that Mormonism is "close enough," as long as it saves America from the socialists.
So rick perry goofed again saying that people in new hampshire should vote on november 12th but only those of legal drinking age. I can already see the conservative spin. "Sure maybe they vote on the 12th in one of Obamas 57 states!"
Maybe he was just drunk because the reason he was making the speech was to brag that Sheriff Joe had endorsed him.
Texas Gov. Rick Perry dismissed his campaign trail gaffes in a Wednesday morning appearance on “Fox and Friends” as a sign that he is merely human, and said the focus on them is an effort to distract from his policy positions.
He said he is an outsider who is capable of overhauling Washington, insisting that Republican voters are still making up their minds about who to support for president.
"We’re going to be talking about it, and we’re going to be talking about that in harsh and strong terms over the course of the next four to five weeks as we get ready for those New Hampshire caucuses," he said.
So what you're saying is Mormon's believe that God creates gay people, but forbids them from actually 'being' gay? God is a dick, man.
Mormons see it as a "test," just like all sin (and life in general), but that ties into their whole view of pre-existence.
But yea. This stuff is right in line for the same God who likes to sick bears on children.
Anyway, I feel like this idea that Mormonism is going to be a problem for Romney among the right is a bit overstated. The irrational hatred of Obama will probably overcome any misgivings about his religion. The justification will probably be that Mormonism is "close enough," as long as it saves America from the socialists.
I've seen "I don't think Romney follows the true god, but I can agree with a lot of his policies" in more than one on-the-street interview.
Which is between wrong and WTF on so many levels, but that's beside the point.
Edit: nevermind, off topic and maybe my knowledge of catholicism is off, defending it makes me feel dirty anyway as I hate it and hate the catholic schooling and upbringing I received...
So how did Gingrich become front runner? I haven't been following too closely mostly because coverage over here has been a joke (literally a joke, the press have found it all hilarious that one of this group will be a presidential candidate, see the guardians debate coverage for instance, we're laughing about it) so I somehow had the impression that he was struggling only a week or two ago?
You know Texas, I know the rest of the country already thinks you are pretty awful, but did you really have to inflict someone dumber than Bush on us all? I mean christ sake.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
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Nationality isn't really the same anyway.
...Except that you can walk away from the religion anytime you wish (...though, I hear your local Mormon branch will make it anything but easy).
You can't really 'walk away' from your national citizenship.
I refer to myself as a recovering baptist. I've met a lot of folks that use the phrase recovering catholic as well.
Edit: I guess my point is that you can have it be part of your identity and disagree with huge portions of it and that isn't insane so long as you walk away from the church.
Who said anything about giving up your citizenship? I said "consider being an american a part of your identity". Or "being proud to be american" or anything with similar meaning.
I doubt you'll find a ton of people even here, where information about just how fucking awful US actions have been and still are in some cases, who will say "I hate being an american" or the like. Or who really wish they could leave.
No, most will very likely tell you they want to make America a better place.
Do they disagree with their religion about everything though?
I mean, how is a practicing Catholic who belives in God/Jesus/all that shit but disapproves of the Catholic Church's handling of the whole molestation debacle any different from an American who disagrees with the country's foreign policy but still identifies with their country?
Like pretty much any orginization, people identify as part of the group without agreeing with everything it does.
I mean the mormon church's efforts to ban gay marriage are slimy. But the catholic church has institutionalized child molestation and works to prevent condom use in aids-ravaged sub-Saharan Africa.
I think what Rick Perry is saying is "You'd have to be drunk to vote for me. And since you are drunk, you won't show up to vote until after the election is over. Also, I may be drunk right now."
You know, I've been seeing several billboards around ATL that seem to have the sole purpose of showing that mormons are like everyone else. I kind of thing that those kinds of things are related to the campaign since it's the bible belt.
There's like 9 of them, and you can see them all here:
http://boncom.com/MORMON/billboard/
I am not sure that an ad campaign will work against something like, but all they'd really need is some sort of Frank Luntz style disingenuous re-branding like he did with 'death taxes.' Change Mormon to "Americo-Christian," wrap it in a flag and no more worries.
Well, most evangelicals already think that about Mormons... so no need for the abstract symbolism.
I hadn't connected it with Mittens until just now, but I could see this sudden blast of national "Mormons are just like everyone else!" advertising being at least partially related to Mitt's campaign.
Really, I just thought it was slimy as fuck to advertise your church on TV.
I can remember LDS commercials as far back as the 80s... and that's only because that's as far back as I go :P
I was brought up in a Mormon family, and this isn't true. Mormons believe that being gay is totally fine (and is NOT a choice), as long as you don't act on sexual desire. The church has gay members who are willing to make that sacrifice, believe it or not. It's a massive caveat, but hey, it's a pretty progressive position as far as religion goes.
Mormons certainly have a history of bigotry, but that's something they've been actively leaving behind. The last time there was anything close to that was one of the general conferences within the last few years when one of the ancient, cranky old men in the Quorum of the Twelve decided to get up on the stage and talk about how he thought homosexuality was of the devil. There was some damage control there. They cut part of his speech, went back and edited those parts out in the transcripts that were sent out.
With the whole Prop 8 thing, I think they realized afterward how massively they'd fucked up by funneling money. There have been some signs that they've been trying to back away from that and maybe re-asses getting involved with politics. All these billboards and youtube advertisements have been going on for a couple of years in an attempt to fix their image in the wake of all that.
The church is a corporation (literally), so they do sometimes operate like this.
Anyway, sorry for the tangent. I haven't been Mormon since age 18, but I still get annoyed at the blatant misinformation and assumptions that pop up from time to time.
Yeah, no change, still massive bigots.
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Mormons have them, Christians have them, and of course as the GOP is quick to remind us, Islam has them too.
Buddhism even! The Buddhists of Sri Lanka would have made the Buddha cry with their wanton bigotry and violence.
Not arguing that it's not ridiculous, just telling you that there's no "burn in hell" consequence for being gay. Mormons don't even believe in the sort of traditional Catholic hell.
And yea, in the spectrum of religion? This is a totally progressive stance. In a secular setting it's obviously not.
Yeah, this is the antithesis of being progressive. The church is trying to hide their bigotry by claiming that they are simply upholding their "proclamation of the family" which states (from God) that sexual relations are only between a man and a woman in marriage, and that homosexual relations are looked upon as no different or more sinful than adultery or premarital sex.
But the church has also not spent millions of members' dollars trying to outlaw the last two, so I'll let their actions speak for them as to which they truly detest more.
Also, the church used pretty much the same excuse (God told us/Joseph Smith said so) to justify their exclusion of blacks from full church benefits for decades. True, it was even more complicated and tortured then with discussions of the pre-existence and how black people had sinned before they were even born.
3DS friend code: 4811-7214-5053
Don't know anything about Catholicism's stance on the issue, but if this is the case, then they're obviously on par.
No.
Why do you get to restrict the yardstick like that? The presidency is a secular office.
I have no doubt that people in fundamentalist Muslim theocracies who think women shouldn't be forced to marry their rapists but also shouldn't be able to drive or vote are progressive within the "spectrum of religion" as they know it. That doesn't make their position any more forgivable to the rest of the world.
And how long has it been since we made it a full 100 pages in an American political thread before we were shut down for meandering hopelessly off topic or for uncivil discourse? We're so close to the finish line!
Was only jumping in to clarify theology. Wasn't related to the presidency, which is why I mentioned it was tangential at the end of the post, and why we should probably just leave it for now.
Catholocism's stance is actually that homosexual urges and thoughts are sinful. The desire is as bad as the action and still requires confession and repentance. The mormon stance is essentially equivalent to the one held by Judaism, albeit with slightly different spins of why you shouldn't have gay sexytimes.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Of course, based on the whole California thing, that could mean that the Mormon church is trying to gather power to itself on a more active basis, which is effing creepy.
pleasepaypreacher.net
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Like, I think that's the point.
Have you read any of the Bible at all.
God is a bigger dick than Superman.
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I linked a youtube of that on the last page. I was bored so I read some of the comments, I think I got through about 5 before someone brought that up.
Perry's goof was... weird. What was he thinking when he said 21, and shouldn't he focus on winning a single primary contest (which doesn't look likely at this point) before he tries to generate votes in the general?
I almost wonder if Perry really didn't want to run and is just tanking his campaign on purpose.
Also: The general is on November 6th. Maybe he meant a primary? Well, the only Tuesday the 12th in primary season is in June.
Mormons see it as a "test," just like all sin (and life in general), but that ties into their whole view of pre-existence.
But yea. This stuff is right in line for the same God who likes to sick bears on children.
Anyway, I feel like this idea that Mormonism is going to be a problem for Romney among the right is a bit overstated. The irrational hatred of Obama will probably overcome any misgivings about his religion. The justification will probably be that Mormonism is "close enough," as long as it saves America from the socialists.
Maybe he was just drunk because the reason he was making the speech was to brag that Sheriff Joe had endorsed him.
lulz
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
I've seen "I don't think Romney follows the true god, but I can agree with a lot of his policies" in more than one on-the-street interview.
Which is between wrong and WTF on so many levels, but that's beside the point.
They'll vote for him if he wins the primary.
So how did Gingrich become front runner? I haven't been following too closely mostly because coverage over here has been a joke (literally a joke, the press have found it all hilarious that one of this group will be a presidential candidate, see the guardians debate coverage for instance, we're laughing about it) so I somehow had the impression that he was struggling only a week or two ago?
3DS friend code: 4811-7214-5053
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