I think the solution to the big numbers problem is that when a number reaches a certain number of digits it gets 3 digits cut off and an acronym such as K for thousand or M for million or B for billion.
I think the solution to the big numbers problem is that when a number reaches a certain number of digits it gets 3 digits cut off and an acronym such as K for thousand or M for million or B for billion.
That was their "mega damage" solution that Blizzard proposed.
Well, presumably they will also nerf the health/damage of old raid content at the same time they nerf everything else.
It's kind of hard to wrap your head around because before now, ilvl has been a relatively linear progression. What they're talking about doing is flattening the curve in previous expansions, but not in the current one. So the gear you get in a new expansion will have the same proportional relationship with old content as it does now, it's just that the numbers in the old content will get retroactively nerfed rather than remaining at the values they were when the content was current.
There are problems with this as well. If they bring level 60 content down to a level that keeps the ratios the same as they are now, then characters below level 60 will be able to do the content, which obviously makes no sense. For example, using the two charts Ghostcrawler posted, if level 60 five mans were tuned to keep the ratios the same to current max level characters, they would be tuned to roughly level 45 characters. Obviously, there are big problems with that.
And if they retroactively nerf old content as new expansions come out, as you suggest, then you run into a problem that's the inverse of what we have now: eventually, level 60 raid bosses have 20,000 health and level 30 5-man bosses have fifty health or something ridiculous. Numbers will get too small. The gear curves we have now are unsustainable over a bunch of expansions without getting into crazy numbers. It's definitely not a simple problem to fix.
It's all relative. We go down, everything else in the game goes down, too. It will all be on the same type of scale. It will take the same number of sword-whacks, or the same number of spell casts, to kill something.
Those numbers you pulled out are a pretty extreme exaggeration. Obviously I can't comment on how things will actually be until it happens, but here. Look at this chart:
This is how they want things to be. The level 1-60 scale is exactly the same. Maybe a little less at the end of it, but it lines up the same. Level 30 bosses won't have something stupid like 50 health. Nor will we.
It's not about squishing everything, it's about squishing the curve.
This is how things currently are. Look how ridiculous that curve is compared to the one above.
It'll make sense, if they go that route. It'll feel weird, but it'll make sense.
The extreme numbers I posted were in response to the idea of nerfing old content repeatedly over the course of many expansions. That's what I thought the poster I was quoting was suggesting, but it's entirely possible that I misread. I'm not saying that's what's going to happen with this curve squishing.
However, it is not the case that it will take the same number of sword whacks, spell casts, etc -- not universally, anyway. That only holds true if you are the appropriate level for the content, i.e. a level 70 player will kill a level 70 mob in the same number of hits after the curve squish.
But what will change is the number of hits required for a level 85 player to kill a level 60 mob, or any mob pre-85. It's right there in the graph. In the graph of the current item levels, top-end 85 gear is four times stronger than level 60 gear (and thus, level 60 content). In the proposed squished curve, top-end 85 gear is only 2 to 2.5 times stronger than level 60 gear and content. That's a huge change, and it will drastically change how max level characters approach old content. I agree that the current curve is ridiculous, as you put it. Squishing the curve is a very neat solution to every problem except soloing old content. I'm sure there's a way it can be tweaked to make it all work, but whatever Blizzard's planning on that front (if they're planning anything), we haven't heard of it. Or maybe we have, and I'm just not keeping up with the news. I haven't heard of it, at any rate.
The first proposal is literally don't do anything except they'll add commas to numbers and round to the nearest thousand/million for displaying those numbers. Flattening is the only thing that makes sense if they want to reign things in, they'd just need to tweak the proposed curve some and nerf raid content to retain its soloability. Remember raids (at least the ones after Vanilla) are level restricted so nerfing them to a point that a group of people 10 levels lower could do it doesn't matter since they quite simply can't. I think it's more important that people be able to go back at max level with one or two friends and be able to solo than it is to retain any difficulty in them.
Also offhand when GC says threat has a 10 digit cap then I'm pretty sure that implies it's a signed 32 bit int meaning the cap is 2147483647. That makes me think one of their potential issues with ever increasing numbers is that to support it they'd basically need to double the data they send for all of those combat values so it can hold numbers that large. Because the speed of your internet is basically constant, that means there will be a negative effect on the server's ability to communicate with the client, even if in practice it ends up miniscule.
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HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
Is he a RIFTS (the table-top RPG, not the MMO) player?
Hah, that was the first thing that came to mind when I read that blog post initially. Good ol' MDC. Gotta love Palladium's take on the tabletop stuff - a min/maxer's dream if ever there was one, holy shit.
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HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
Transmogrification is a pretty big feature being added, that they're touting pretty loudly. It would kinda put a big pile of shit on that front porch.
Not at all. You'll just have to bring a couple friends a long. What's the big deal? It'll be like doing a Heroic 5 man.
The issue is that old content is compelling to a small number of people (compared to the current content), becoming increasingly moreso as people get their gear. Today at least you can solo some of it (and small group the rest, but even that's if you get enough interested people to come along), but if the squish goes in, the fear is that that won't be a viable option any longer.
Really, one of two things needs to happen: A) the raid locks for pre-Cataclysm (and all non-current content going forward) need to be changed from weekly to daily if not removed altogether, and the group requirement needs to be removed, or the gear from the old dungeons (or identical statless copies of it) need to be put on some vendor and sold for points. Either of those things will really give transmogrification some staying power. As-is, it's like pulling teeth to get people to run this old shit that requires more than a couple of people. They just don't care to do it (and if they do, oftentimes they're going for the same things you are). Either of those solutions would keep people going back to those places for a long time.
The extreme numbers I posted were in response to the idea of nerfing old content repeatedly over the course of many expansions. That's what I thought the poster I was quoting was suggesting, but it's entirely possible that I misread. I'm not saying that's what's going to happen with this curve squishing.
However, it is not the case that it will take the same number of sword whacks, spell casts, etc -- not universally, anyway. That only holds true if you are the appropriate level for the content, i.e. a level 70 player will kill a level 70 mob in the same number of hits after the curve squish.
But what will change is the number of hits required for a level 85 player to kill a level 60 mob, or any mob pre-85. It's right there in the graph. In the graph of the current item levels, top-end 85 gear is four times stronger than level 60 gear (and thus, level 60 content). In the proposed squished curve, top-end 85 gear is only 2 to 2.5 times stronger than level 60 gear and content. That's a huge change, and it will drastically change how max level characters approach old content. I agree that the current curve is ridiculous, as you put it. Squishing the curve is a very neat solution to every problem except soloing old content. I'm sure there's a way it can be tweaked to make it all work, but whatever Blizzard's planning on that front (if they're planning anything), we haven't heard of it. Or maybe we have, and I'm just not keeping up with the news. I haven't heard of it, at any rate.
Oh okay, I get what you mean now. That's a valid concern, but at the same time, it shouldn't be too much different from how soloing content in Wrath was. Well probably a bit harder, but BC content and Vanilla should be pretty easy at 90. I'd hope so anyways. Wrath stuff will probably be a bit harder, Cata stuff even harder. Hm. At least with the new talents (self-heals and all that) it shouldn't be quite as hard, I think.
60 content is not going to be that easy if this item squish goes into effect. I duoed twin emperors with my girlfriend and we have ilvl 360-365'ish gears on those toons that we wanted transmog stuff on.
One of those emperors is not easy to solo even at our stage, at least not for my girlfriend's ret pally. I had less trouble with my shadowpriest, but I got hit decently hard for it to have been pretty much impossible if I had wrath level stuff (ilvl 270'ish).
If the item squish ends you up at only 2.5 times stronger than vanilla content, low level content is going to be much harder. Someone already mentioned that level 60 content wouldn't get touched, and if that's the case, my point stands firmly.
If they put this in they need to factor in actual levels to old content bosses so that they aren't considered above you even when they're designed for 60s or 70s, etc.
In Dark Age of Camelot, I remember that at level 50 you could run into a low level dungeon, pull the entire dungeon, then proceed to sit down in the middle of the zone with 60 enemies on you and you would never stand back up because not a single one would ever hit you.
If WoW fixed it so levels matter a bit more to the point where old content would be roughly as easy to solo/duo as now, that could be the solution. I already thought of this back when they first mentioned item squish, though, and the reason why I still got depressed about it is because there's no way Blizz is going to put a lot of effort into something like that. They didn't even mention old content soloing, etc, in the item squish.
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EshTending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles.Portland, ORRegistered Userregular
edited November 2011
I personally like the idea of the old content being a little challenging. Maybe they could even add more achievements for it? That'd get people running them more.
And if you want that transmog gear, I don't see the problem in working a little harder for it.
So rather than making a thread in some other god-forsaken forum I figured I'd ask this here.
I've just come back after leaving right after Cata launch. Now that I'm locked in for 12 months I want to get a character to 85, but my old main is uh, kinda defunct.
See, I used to play a Death Knight, but I did that because I loved how Death Knight DPS used to function. I liked that you were essentially GCD capped at all times, and if you missed even one part of your rotation it would all fall apart. I liked that I was always pressing a button no matter what.
The new rune system kinda ruined that. Now I spend a lot of time just sitting there, staring into space when my ADHD demands I be pressing more buttons.
So what other classes have that same level of action required? It doesn't have be a super high skill level, either. I just want to have something to do other than stare at skills cooling down and hope for procs.
I personally like the idea of the old content being a little challenging. Maybe they could even add more achievements for it? That'd get people running them more.
And if you want that transmog gear, I don't see the problem in working a little harder for it.
Yeah, no. I don't really want to do decades old content over again, but it is fun if I do it with my girlfriend. I don't want to have to bribe people to come with us in MoP. I was on a PvP server with all my friends and was told by others if I don't like open PvP I should leave, so that's what I did. Now, my girlfriend and I are on a PvE realm and we have no friends, which means that duoing is the option we are left with, and I don't mind because it's kind of fun. Adding a bunch of other people and failing to the equation is not going to make it any more fun; it means it will take much longer to get it and there'll be much more frustration.
I am really tired of this idea that if you want to progress you should be frustrated throughout it; if I have to do something over and over for a long period of time because of low drop rates, I'd like it to be fun while doing so.
What is going to happen if old content becomes challenging and requires 10 people is that I will likely leave for another game, like Guild Wars 2. Unless, of course, I manage to snag everything I want before the dreaded expansion arrives. And believe me, I'm working on it.
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EshTending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles.Portland, ORRegistered Userregular
I personally like the idea of the old content being a little challenging. Maybe they could even add more achievements for it? That'd get people running them more.
And if you want that transmog gear, I don't see the problem in working a little harder for it.
Yeah, no. I don't really want to do decades old content over again, but it is fun if I do it with my girlfriend. I don't want to have to bribe people to come with us in MoP. I was on a PvP server with all my friends and was told by others if I don't like open PvP I should leave, so that's what I did. Now, my girlfriend and I are on a PvE realm and we have no friends, which means that duoing is the option we are left with, and I don't mind because it's kind of fun. Adding a bunch of other people and failing to the equation is not going to make it any more fun; it means it will take much longer to get it and there'll be much more frustration.
I am really tired of this idea that if you want to progress you should be frustrated throughout it; if I have to do something over and over for a long period of time because of low drop rates, I'd like it to be fun while doing so.
What is going to happen if old content becomes challenging and requires 10 people is that I will likely leave for another game, like Guild Wars 2. Unless, of course, I manage to snag everything I want before the dreaded expansion arrives. And believe me, I'm working on it.
You could make friends? Join a guild? It sounds like the problem is on your end, not on the game's or the communities.
I remember having to put together 40 man raids. It was a pain in the ass. 5 or 10 man? That's nothing. If raid content or having to repeatedly run something to get a piece of equipment frustrates you (which is the entire game), maybe you're playing the wrong thing?
So what other classes have that same level of action required? It doesn't have be a super high skill level, either. I just want to have something to do other than stare at skills cooling down and hope for procs.
DPS Warriors do not have too many free GCDs right now. It's what I'm mostly playing right now, and I am having a blast while playing one.
Destruction Warlock is also constantly juggling a lot of different abilities at once with a huge priority list (Affliction is a bit easier).
Feral Druid is not quite as bad as it used to be but still pretty crazy. JOHN FUCKING MADDEN:
I'd say those are the most busy classes and specs, but Shadow Priest can also be a bit hectic depending on circumstances.
Easiest rotations are Arcane and MM Huntard. With the changes to Elemental Shammie they're kind of easy, too, and Ret Pally's got some downtime as well.
Source: I might be forgetting something but I have all classes and I've played all specs, and that's my opinion, at least.
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EshTending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles.Portland, ORRegistered Userregular
So rather than making a thread in some other god-forsaken forum I figured I'd ask this here.
I've just come back after leaving right after Cata launch. Now that I'm locked in for 12 months I want to get a character to 85, but my old main is uh, kinda defunct.
See, I used to play a Death Knight, but I did that because I loved how Death Knight DPS used to function. I liked that you were essentially GCD capped at all times, and if you missed even one part of your rotation it would all fall apart. I liked that I was always pressing a button no matter what.
The new rune system kinda ruined that. Now I spend a lot of time just sitting there, staring into space when my ADHD demands I be pressing more buttons.
So what other classes have that same level of action required? It doesn't have be a super high skill level, either. I just want to have something to do other than stare at skills cooling down and hope for procs.
You could make friends? Join a guild? It sounds like the problem is on your end, not on the game's or the communities.
I remember having to put together 40 man raids. It was a pain in the ass. 5 or 10 man? That's nothing. If raid content or having to repeatedly run something to get a piece of equipment frustrates you (which is the entire game), maybe you're playing the wrong thing?
We don't have time, and no, it's not just my problem. Many people would be inconvenienced by that change.
You don't seem to understand the problem. It is not the concept of running something repeatedly that is the problem. The problem comes when you're running something repeatedly and you die because of other people's mistakes every step of the way. This is why people complained about heroics. You can make it challenging without it being a chore or insanely frustrating (Corla is a good example of the kind of boss they should NOT have outside of raids).
The entire point here is that I'd prefer my skinner box to not shock me every time I push the lever, or I will go find a different skinner box.
Yeah I actually made that post because I started leveling a Ret paladin based on my experience with them in WOTLK, but by the time I hit 40 earlier today I realized I wouldn't be getting any more attacks, and I get super bored sitting around hoping for art of war to proc.
My biggest problem is that I've played most of the classes/specs, but so much has changed since Cata that some specs are completely unrecognizable to me now.
I've got a Warrior and Druid already high up and they bug me for other reasons, so maybe I'll try a Warlock. I used to enjoy Affliction before they simplified it, but if Destruction has a lot going on then it should sate my thirst for button pressing.
You could make friends? Join a guild? It sounds like the problem is on your end, not on the game's or the communities.
I remember having to put together 40 man raids. It was a pain in the ass. 5 or 10 man? That's nothing. If raid content or having to repeatedly run something to get a piece of equipment frustrates you (which is the entire game), maybe you're playing the wrong thing?
We don't have time, and no, it's not just my problem. Many people would be inconvenienced by that change.
You don't seem to understand the problem. It is not the concept of running something repeatedly that is the problem. The problem comes when you're running something repeatedly and you die because of other people's mistakes every step of the way. This is why people complained about heroics. You can make it challenging without it being a chore or insanely frustrating (Corla is a good example of the kind of boss they should NOT have outside of raids).
The entire point here is that I'd prefer my skinner box to not shock me every time I push the lever, or I will go find a different skinner box.
Then run with competent people. I really don't see the issue here. There's several guilds on these forums alone that you could join and meet and run with good players.
And Corla isn't bad. You just have to know what you're doing. Like I said. Make friends who know how to play. It's a social game.
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EshTending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles.Portland, ORRegistered Userregular
maybe I'll try a Warlock. I used to enjoy Affliction before they simplified it, but if Destruction has a lot going on then it should sate my thirst for button pressing.
Ok, let me give you a rundown to give you an idea:
You have 3 soul shards to use for insta-soulfires throughout the battle, and your imp procs insta-soulfires, too.
1) Apply Curse of the Elements (lasts 5 mins).
2) Constantly have Soul Fire buff up (lasts 15 secs, you have to monitor if your soulfire is instant or not, if it's not you have to precast before it runs out).
3) Immolation (Modified by haste, 15-16~ secs, I think).
4) Conflagration (8 sec cooldown).
5) Bane of Doom (once every minute, if more targets, Bane of Havoc).
6) Corruption (Modified by haste, 17-18~ secs, I think).
7) Instacast Soulfires (from Empowered Imp).
8) Shadowflame IF you are close to the mobs, it's not worth running there (12 sec cooldown).
9) Demon Soul (2 min cooldown).
10) Chaos Bolt (12 sec cooldown).
11) <20% hp: Shadowburn (also try to use on other targets to refresh your soul shards).
12) "Spam" incinerate (there's never spam because there's so much stuff above it).
If you have to move, use Fel Flame. It's never worth using otherwise.
Then run with competent people. I really don't see the issue here. There's several guilds on these forums alone that you could join and meet and run with good players.
And Corla isn't bad. You just have to know what you're doing. Like I said. Make friends who know how to play. It's a social game.
There aren't many competent people in LFD. We're already in a guild, but the guild is not very active right now, so please stop saying that it's some kind of universal truth that it's easy to play with competent people. It's kind of up in the air at the moment if our guild ever actually had competent people. I'm on the fence.
And no, your version of reality is inaccurate. Corla IS bad. I see people still failing even this far into the expansion. Most people are not that great at this game.
You need to take a moment and realize that not everyone has the same perspective you have. Some people never want to group, ever, and they are just as justified playing the game their way as you are.
Paragon on
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EshTending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles.Portland, ORRegistered Userregular
Then run with competent people. I really don't see the issue here. There's several guilds on these forums alone that you could join and meet and run with good players.
And Corla isn't bad. You just have to know what you're doing. Like I said. Make friends who know how to play. It's a social game.
There aren't many competent people in LFD. We're already in a guild, but the guild is not very active right now, so please stop saying that it's some kind of universal truth that it's easy to play with competent people. It's kind of up in the air at the moment if our guild ever actually had competent people. I'm on the fence.
And no, your version of reality is inaccurate. Corla IS bad. I see people still failing even this far into the expansion. Most people are not that great at this game.
You need to take a moment and realize that not everyone has the same perspective you have. Some people never want to group, ever, and they are just as justified playing the game their way as you are.
It's an MMO. Multiplayer being one of the key words in that acronym. If you don't want to group ever, you're playing the wrong game. There's millions of people playing this game. It's not THAT hard to find 5 of them. Switch guilds maybe? I don't know what to tell you, but it doesn't seem like you're trying very hard.
They can play the game however they want, but seeing as it's designed around grouping, they're going to be handicapped. That's no reason to modify the game for the rest of us who are playing it as its intended to be played.
It's an MMO. Multiplayer being one of the key words in that acronym. If you don't want to group ever, you're playing the wrong game. There's millions of people playing this game. It's not THAT hard to find 5 of them. Switch guilds maybe? I don't know what to tell you, but it doesn't seem like you're trying very hard.
They can play the game however they want, but seeing as it's designed around grouping, they're going to be handicapped. That's no reason to modify the game for the rest of us who are playing it as its intended to be played.
Can you please stop? I don't want to discuss any personal issues here with you of all people. I never said we were the ones who never wanted to group, I am saying there are some people like that, and they have a right to play and have fun, despite your incessant need to interject the multiplayer part of this. Your argument has been done seven billion times already, and it doesn't apply to servers that are near dead, for example. But hey, they can abandon their characters and start playing on more active realms, right?!
Again, you need to try to take a breather and look at things from other people's perspective. Some people have difficulty finding friends in the first place, for example, but would still like to take part in the game.
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EshTending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles.Portland, ORRegistered Userregular
It's an MMO. Multiplayer being one of the key words in that acronym. If you don't want to group ever, you're playing the wrong game. There's millions of people playing this game. It's not THAT hard to find 5 of them. Switch guilds maybe? I don't know what to tell you, but it doesn't seem like you're trying very hard.
They can play the game however they want, but seeing as it's designed around grouping, they're going to be handicapped. That's no reason to modify the game for the rest of us who are playing it as its intended to be played.
Can you please stop? I don't want to discuss any personal issues here with you of all people. I never said we were the ones who never wanted to group, I am saying there are some people like that, and they have a right to play and have fun, despite your incessant need to interject the multiplayer part of this. Your argument has been done seven billion times already, and it doesn't apply to servers that are near dead, for example. But hey, they can abandon their characters and start playing on more active realms, right?!
Again, you need to try to take a breather and look at things from other people's perspective. Some people have difficulty finding friends in the first place, for example, but would still like to take part in the game.
Or you could transfer your characters and not abandon them? I'm not trying to make this personal, it's just how you're coming across.
That's fine that some people have difficulty finding friends, but you shouldn't diminish the enjoyment of those who don't have that issue in an multiplayer game. That's what it comes down to. It's a multiplayer game. I don't complain about the lack of FPS elements in FIFA for example. You're imposing your (or whoever's) wants and needs in a situation where they don't apply at all. The ultimate end game of WoW comes to grouping. There's no avoiding that.
It comes down to the fact that I'd be very happy if they made old content semi-challenging again. I look forward to that day and maybe they'll implement some rewards that are beneficial for even the max level characters from them. Vanity items, cheevos, etc.
I really am not trying to attack you or make this personal, it's just a discussion. Please understand that. It's just that the only reasoning you're giving for disliking the idea is that it would affect you and your girlfriend and those people who don't like to group. Anyway, no point in dragging this out as I don't think either of us is going to change our opinions.
Or you could transfer your characters and not abandon them? I'm not trying to make this personal, it's just how you're coming across.
That's fine that some people have difficulty finding friends, but you shouldn't diminish the enjoyment of those who don't have that issue in an multiplayer game. That's what it comes down to. It's a multiplayer game. I don't complain about the lack of FPS elements in FIFA for example. You're imposing your (or whoever's) wants and needs in a situation where they don't apply at all. The ultimate end game of WoW comes to grouping. There's no avoiding that.
It comes down to the fact that I'd be very happy if they made old content semi-challenging again. I look forward to that day and maybe they'll implement some rewards that are beneficial for even the max level characters from them. Vanity items, cheevos, etc.
I really am not trying to attack you or make this personal, it's just a discussion. Please understand that.
I ALREADY TRANSFERRED 7 CHARACTERS OVER HERE. Jesus christ, Esh. You think people can afford to just transfer everywhere on a whim? I left that part of the argument out on purpose because it is blindingly obvious that that's not a route most people can go. It's personal because you're bringing in the social aspect of this, which is a sore spot for both my girlfriend and I. This is why I keep saying to LISTEN to what I'm saying and try to look at things from other perspectives than your own, but you keep refusing.
And no, I'm not imposing anything here, you're the one doing that.
AQ40 had its time in Vanilla, the content was challenging and all was well for people who liked raiding. If you didn't like raiding, welp, sucked to be you.
Right now the content has had its time and it is now no longer challenging, which means most people now can go and check it out, and with transmog you have a reason to do so, too. Everything is great! People who loved challenge had their due, and now more casual players can experience it and get something as well.
But no, you're not satisfied with that. You want everything to be challenging, and it doesn't matter how many people aren't catered to in the process. My stance is that if you want challenge there are heroic modes (and upcoming challenge modes) for that, and if your idea of fun and progression is not dying 500 times to heroic Ragnaros, then there's normal modes, heroic dungeons, and questing.
Your stance seems to be that everything should be hard so people can "toughen up" and become better players, which is unrealistic and selfish because not everyone cares for challenges.
The most fun I've had so far in WoW was on the other server doing some old content with my friends. We steamrolled it and laughed and had fun. No one ever died, yet it was some of the most fun I've ever had in WoW.
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jackalFuck Yes. That is an orderly anal warehouse.Registered Userregular
Finished gems are stacking on the PTR. Shit, finally.
Yeah I actually made that post because I started leveling a Ret paladin based on my experience with them in WOTLK, but by the time I hit 40 earlier today I realized I wouldn't be getting any more attacks, and I get super bored sitting around hoping for art of war to proc.
My biggest problem is that I've played most of the classes/specs, but so much has changed since Cata that some specs are completely unrecognizable to me now.
I've got a Warrior and Druid already high up and they bug me for other reasons, so maybe I'll try a Warlock. I used to enjoy Affliction before they simplified it, but if Destruction has a lot going on then it should sate my thirst for button pressing.
If you like your death knight, know that this is the case again once you get gear. It's also more and more the case the better you play - as you make sure to get the most benefit from runic empowerment, and use blood tap and empower rune weapon better, you'll have more runes to use.
So I don't know why, but DPSing fucking bores me to tears. I've always tanked, and so I always feel like man it's going to be fun when I go DPS and do some heroics. But every time I swap to Ret and do heroics, even though I do great DPS, I'm just bored out of my fucking mind. It's just like tanking without the control. I kind of enjoy swapping and kicking some ass on one tank fights, but that's usually just so I can give main spec DPSers shit about me beating them in my average ass gear.
I had a group in ZA this morning that made me sad because it was so good. Getting a group that stuns, interrupts, kills scouts, purges, kill hatchers etc and does it while pulling 15-20k DPS shouldn't be the outlier, but it is. Last week I tried a new strategy of just leaving every group that was bad and I didn't cap VP.
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EshTending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles.Portland, ORRegistered Userregular
I ALREADY TRANSFERRED 7 CHARACTERS OVER HERE. Jesus christ, Esh. You think people can afford to just transfer everywhere on a whim? I left that part of the argument out on purpose because it is blindingly obvious that that's not a route most people can go. It's personal because you're bringing in the social aspect of this, which is a sore spot for both my girlfriend and I. This is why I keep saying to LISTEN to what I'm saying and try to look at things from other perspectives than your own, but you keep refusing.
And no, I'm not imposing anything here, you're the one doing that.
AQ40 had its time in Vanilla, the content was challenging and all was well for people who liked raiding. If you didn't like raiding, welp, sucked to be you.
Right now the content has had its time and it is now no longer challenging, which means most people now can go and check it out, and with transmog you have a reason to do so, too. Everything is great! People who loved challenge had their due, and now more casual players can experience it and get something as well.
But no, you're not satisfied with that. You want everything to be challenging, and it doesn't matter how many people aren't catered to in the process. My stance is that if you want challenge there are heroic modes (and upcoming challenge modes) for that, and if your idea of fun and progression is not dying 500 times to heroic Ragnaros, then there's normal modes, heroic dungeons, and questing.
Your stance seems to be that everything should be hard so people can "toughen up" and become better players, which is unrealistic and selfish because not everyone cares for challenges.
The most fun I've had so far in WoW was on the other server doing some old content with my friends. We steamrolled it and laughed and had fun. No one ever died, yet it was some of the most fun I've ever had in WoW.
Calm down. How would I know that you transferred seven characters? Maybe you should have only taken one or two and saved yourself some cash to test the waters before going hog wild and spending that much money?
And yeah, what's the point of not being challenged? It's maybe fun once or twice, but after that, it's just boring. But hey, different strokes.
Also, comparing Heroic Ragnaros to the slight difficulty bump that old dungeons might get is ridiculous. I doubt, with help, they'll take more than 5 people for the classic stuff. If you really think that's an issue, then your difficulties with the game far transcend any normal persons. I never said everything should be "hard". Please find that quote for me. I said I just wanted things to be challenging. Challenging doesn't mean impossible or even hard. I just like putting forth effort.
I just want the dungeons to be as tough as say...a heroic normal dungeon. Not as tough as even a normal raid.
Seriously, just having a discussion here. There's no need to start using all caps.
One thing i'm relly looki forward to for the next patch is, apperently you can now get Chaos Orbs at the Auction house. Something that will really help a Blacksmith like me.
They're not currently on the JP goods vendor. I'm okay with just making them tradable. I have 25 on my engineer--who just rolls on them if no one else does, or if I hated the group--and 30 on my tailor. This will be nice in making some weapons upgrades on my blacksmith, who can't win a role to save it's life.
Although making 365 weapons in a 384 world seems kinda pointless.
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Not at all. You'll just have to bring a couple friends a long. What's the big deal? It'll be like doing a Heroic 5 man.
That was their "mega damage" solution that Blizzard proposed.
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The extreme numbers I posted were in response to the idea of nerfing old content repeatedly over the course of many expansions. That's what I thought the poster I was quoting was suggesting, but it's entirely possible that I misread. I'm not saying that's what's going to happen with this curve squishing.
However, it is not the case that it will take the same number of sword whacks, spell casts, etc -- not universally, anyway. That only holds true if you are the appropriate level for the content, i.e. a level 70 player will kill a level 70 mob in the same number of hits after the curve squish.
But what will change is the number of hits required for a level 85 player to kill a level 60 mob, or any mob pre-85. It's right there in the graph. In the graph of the current item levels, top-end 85 gear is four times stronger than level 60 gear (and thus, level 60 content). In the proposed squished curve, top-end 85 gear is only 2 to 2.5 times stronger than level 60 gear and content. That's a huge change, and it will drastically change how max level characters approach old content. I agree that the current curve is ridiculous, as you put it. Squishing the curve is a very neat solution to every problem except soloing old content. I'm sure there's a way it can be tweaked to make it all work, but whatever Blizzard's planning on that front (if they're planning anything), we haven't heard of it. Or maybe we have, and I'm just not keeping up with the news. I haven't heard of it, at any rate.
Also offhand when GC says threat has a 10 digit cap then I'm pretty sure that implies it's a signed 32 bit int meaning the cap is 2147483647. That makes me think one of their potential issues with ever increasing numbers is that to support it they'd basically need to double the data they send for all of those combat values so it can hold numbers that large. Because the speed of your internet is basically constant, that means there will be a negative effect on the server's ability to communicate with the client, even if in practice it ends up miniscule.
Really, one of two things needs to happen: A) the raid locks for pre-Cataclysm (and all non-current content going forward) need to be changed from weekly to daily if not removed altogether, and the group requirement needs to be removed, or
Oh okay, I get what you mean now. That's a valid concern, but at the same time, it shouldn't be too much different from how soloing content in Wrath was. Well probably a bit harder, but BC content and Vanilla should be pretty easy at 90. I'd hope so anyways. Wrath stuff will probably be a bit harder, Cata stuff even harder. Hm. At least with the new talents (self-heals and all that) it shouldn't be quite as hard, I think.
I guess we'll see, at any rate.
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One of those emperors is not easy to solo even at our stage, at least not for my girlfriend's ret pally. I had less trouble with my shadowpriest, but I got hit decently hard for it to have been pretty much impossible if I had wrath level stuff (ilvl 270'ish).
If the item squish ends you up at only 2.5 times stronger than vanilla content, low level content is going to be much harder. Someone already mentioned that level 60 content wouldn't get touched, and if that's the case, my point stands firmly.
If they put this in they need to factor in actual levels to old content bosses so that they aren't considered above you even when they're designed for 60s or 70s, etc.
In Dark Age of Camelot, I remember that at level 50 you could run into a low level dungeon, pull the entire dungeon, then proceed to sit down in the middle of the zone with 60 enemies on you and you would never stand back up because not a single one would ever hit you.
If WoW fixed it so levels matter a bit more to the point where old content would be roughly as easy to solo/duo as now, that could be the solution. I already thought of this back when they first mentioned item squish, though, and the reason why I still got depressed about it is because there's no way Blizz is going to put a lot of effort into something like that. They didn't even mention old content soloing, etc, in the item squish.
And if you want that transmog gear, I don't see the problem in working a little harder for it.
I've just come back after leaving right after Cata launch. Now that I'm locked in for 12 months I want to get a character to 85, but my old main is uh, kinda defunct.
See, I used to play a Death Knight, but I did that because I loved how Death Knight DPS used to function. I liked that you were essentially GCD capped at all times, and if you missed even one part of your rotation it would all fall apart. I liked that I was always pressing a button no matter what.
The new rune system kinda ruined that. Now I spend a lot of time just sitting there, staring into space when my ADHD demands I be pressing more buttons.
So what other classes have that same level of action required? It doesn't have be a super high skill level, either. I just want to have something to do other than stare at skills cooling down and hope for procs.
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Yeah, no. I don't really want to do decades old content over again, but it is fun if I do it with my girlfriend. I don't want to have to bribe people to come with us in MoP. I was on a PvP server with all my friends and was told by others if I don't like open PvP I should leave, so that's what I did. Now, my girlfriend and I are on a PvE realm and we have no friends, which means that duoing is the option we are left with, and I don't mind because it's kind of fun. Adding a bunch of other people and failing to the equation is not going to make it any more fun; it means it will take much longer to get it and there'll be much more frustration.
I am really tired of this idea that if you want to progress you should be frustrated throughout it; if I have to do something over and over for a long period of time because of low drop rates, I'd like it to be fun while doing so.
What is going to happen if old content becomes challenging and requires 10 people is that I will likely leave for another game, like Guild Wars 2. Unless, of course, I manage to snag everything I want before the dreaded expansion arrives. And believe me, I'm working on it.
You could make friends? Join a guild? It sounds like the problem is on your end, not on the game's or the communities.
I remember having to put together 40 man raids. It was a pain in the ass. 5 or 10 man? That's nothing. If raid content or having to repeatedly run something to get a piece of equipment frustrates you (which is the entire game), maybe you're playing the wrong thing?
DPS Warriors do not have too many free GCDs right now. It's what I'm mostly playing right now, and I am having a blast while playing one.
Destruction Warlock is also constantly juggling a lot of different abilities at once with a huge priority list (Affliction is a bit easier).
Feral Druid is not quite as bad as it used to be but still pretty crazy. JOHN FUCKING MADDEN:
Easiest rotations are Arcane and MM Huntard. With the changes to Elemental Shammie they're kind of easy, too, and Ret Pally's got some downtime as well.
Source: I might be forgetting something but I have all classes and I've played all specs, and that's my opinion, at least.
My Ret pally had quite a few buttons to thwack.
We don't have time, and no, it's not just my problem. Many people would be inconvenienced by that change.
You don't seem to understand the problem. It is not the concept of running something repeatedly that is the problem. The problem comes when you're running something repeatedly and you die because of other people's mistakes every step of the way. This is why people complained about heroics. You can make it challenging without it being a chore or insanely frustrating (Corla is a good example of the kind of boss they should NOT have outside of raids).
The entire point here is that I'd prefer my skinner box to not shock me every time I push the lever, or I will go find a different skinner box.
Not really, compared to the other specs I mentioned. There's downtime waiting for procs, which is exactly the kind of thing he didn't want.
My biggest problem is that I've played most of the classes/specs, but so much has changed since Cata that some specs are completely unrecognizable to me now.
I've got a Warrior and Druid already high up and they bug me for other reasons, so maybe I'll try a Warlock. I used to enjoy Affliction before they simplified it, but if Destruction has a lot going on then it should sate my thirst for button pressing.
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Then run with competent people. I really don't see the issue here. There's several guilds on these forums alone that you could join and meet and run with good players.
And Corla isn't bad. You just have to know what you're doing. Like I said. Make friends who know how to play. It's a social game.
I didn't realize that he wanted super hectic button thwacking.
Ok, let me give you a rundown to give you an idea:
You have 3 soul shards to use for insta-soulfires throughout the battle, and your imp procs insta-soulfires, too.
1) Apply Curse of the Elements (lasts 5 mins).
2) Constantly have Soul Fire buff up (lasts 15 secs, you have to monitor if your soulfire is instant or not, if it's not you have to precast before it runs out).
3) Immolation (Modified by haste, 15-16~ secs, I think).
4) Conflagration (8 sec cooldown).
5) Bane of Doom (once every minute, if more targets, Bane of Havoc).
6) Corruption (Modified by haste, 17-18~ secs, I think).
7) Instacast Soulfires (from Empowered Imp).
8) Shadowflame IF you are close to the mobs, it's not worth running there (12 sec cooldown).
9) Demon Soul (2 min cooldown).
10) Chaos Bolt (12 sec cooldown).
11) <20% hp: Shadowburn (also try to use on other targets to refresh your soul shards).
12) "Spam" incinerate (there's never spam because there's so much stuff above it).
If you have to move, use Fel Flame. It's never worth using otherwise.
It is...quite hectic, to say the least.
There aren't many competent people in LFD. We're already in a guild, but the guild is not very active right now, so please stop saying that it's some kind of universal truth that it's easy to play with competent people. It's kind of up in the air at the moment if our guild ever actually had competent people. I'm on the fence.
And no, your version of reality is inaccurate. Corla IS bad. I see people still failing even this far into the expansion. Most people are not that great at this game.
You need to take a moment and realize that not everyone has the same perspective you have. Some people never want to group, ever, and they are just as justified playing the game their way as you are.
It's an MMO. Multiplayer being one of the key words in that acronym. If you don't want to group ever, you're playing the wrong game. There's millions of people playing this game. It's not THAT hard to find 5 of them. Switch guilds maybe? I don't know what to tell you, but it doesn't seem like you're trying very hard.
They can play the game however they want, but seeing as it's designed around grouping, they're going to be handicapped. That's no reason to modify the game for the rest of us who are playing it as its intended to be played.
Can you please stop? I don't want to discuss any personal issues here with you of all people. I never said we were the ones who never wanted to group, I am saying there are some people like that, and they have a right to play and have fun, despite your incessant need to interject the multiplayer part of this. Your argument has been done seven billion times already, and it doesn't apply to servers that are near dead, for example. But hey, they can abandon their characters and start playing on more active realms, right?!
Again, you need to try to take a breather and look at things from other people's perspective. Some people have difficulty finding friends in the first place, for example, but would still like to take part in the game.
Or you could transfer your characters and not abandon them? I'm not trying to make this personal, it's just how you're coming across.
That's fine that some people have difficulty finding friends, but you shouldn't diminish the enjoyment of those who don't have that issue in an multiplayer game. That's what it comes down to. It's a multiplayer game. I don't complain about the lack of FPS elements in FIFA for example. You're imposing your (or whoever's) wants and needs in a situation where they don't apply at all. The ultimate end game of WoW comes to grouping. There's no avoiding that.
It comes down to the fact that I'd be very happy if they made old content semi-challenging again. I look forward to that day and maybe they'll implement some rewards that are beneficial for even the max level characters from them. Vanity items, cheevos, etc.
I really am not trying to attack you or make this personal, it's just a discussion. Please understand that. It's just that the only reasoning you're giving for disliking the idea is that it would affect you and your girlfriend and those people who don't like to group. Anyway, no point in dragging this out as I don't think either of us is going to change our opinions.
I ALREADY TRANSFERRED 7 CHARACTERS OVER HERE. Jesus christ, Esh. You think people can afford to just transfer everywhere on a whim? I left that part of the argument out on purpose because it is blindingly obvious that that's not a route most people can go. It's personal because you're bringing in the social aspect of this, which is a sore spot for both my girlfriend and I. This is why I keep saying to LISTEN to what I'm saying and try to look at things from other perspectives than your own, but you keep refusing.
And no, I'm not imposing anything here, you're the one doing that.
AQ40 had its time in Vanilla, the content was challenging and all was well for people who liked raiding. If you didn't like raiding, welp, sucked to be you.
Right now the content has had its time and it is now no longer challenging, which means most people now can go and check it out, and with transmog you have a reason to do so, too. Everything is great! People who loved challenge had their due, and now more casual players can experience it and get something as well.
But no, you're not satisfied with that. You want everything to be challenging, and it doesn't matter how many people aren't catered to in the process. My stance is that if you want challenge there are heroic modes (and upcoming challenge modes) for that, and if your idea of fun and progression is not dying 500 times to heroic Ragnaros, then there's normal modes, heroic dungeons, and questing.
Your stance seems to be that everything should be hard so people can "toughen up" and become better players, which is unrealistic and selfish because not everyone cares for challenges.
The most fun I've had so far in WoW was on the other server doing some old content with my friends. We steamrolled it and laughed and had fun. No one ever died, yet it was some of the most fun I've ever had in WoW.
How 'bout those Troll Monks, eh? Anyone excited? I'm excited. Gonna do some crazy capoeira shit.
If you like your death knight, know that this is the case again once you get gear. It's also more and more the case the better you play - as you make sure to get the most benefit from runic empowerment, and use blood tap and empower rune weapon better, you'll have more runes to use.
This is already true on live. Sort of. They stack. They just don't stack automatically when you make them.
Calm down. How would I know that you transferred seven characters? Maybe you should have only taken one or two and saved yourself some cash to test the waters before going hog wild and spending that much money?
And yeah, what's the point of not being challenged? It's maybe fun once or twice, but after that, it's just boring. But hey, different strokes.
Also, comparing Heroic Ragnaros to the slight difficulty bump that old dungeons might get is ridiculous. I doubt, with help, they'll take more than 5 people for the classic stuff. If you really think that's an issue, then your difficulties with the game far transcend any normal persons. I never said everything should be "hard". Please find that quote for me. I said I just wanted things to be challenging. Challenging doesn't mean impossible or even hard. I just like putting forth effort.
I just want the dungeons to be as tough as say...a heroic normal dungeon. Not as tough as even a normal raid.
Seriously, just having a discussion here. There's no need to start using all caps.
I really hope they can figure out how to realid queue for lfr. that would be totes cool.
Although making 365 weapons in a 384 world seems kinda pointless.
Tauren monks.
Does your monk have hooves? Can it do a flying hoof kick to the face? No? Then your monk is inferior, sorry.
Good point, draenei are the superior monks.
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