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Homeland[sho] - She's not crazy, simply in love!

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    DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    emp123 wrote: »
    If they kill anyone it will be the daughter because the son basically doesnt exist. I think he had the most lines in this last episode, and he didnt say much.

    This is why the son is expendable. Daughter has too much going on. Plus the son is a more direct allegory for Issa.

    I still want to find out that Nazir knew about the impending bombing (from the still-unnamed CIA mole) and decided not to pull Issa out of the school. That would be the thing that finally broke Brody.

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    emp123emp123 Registered User regular
    emp123 wrote: »
    If they kill anyone it will be the daughter because the son basically doesnt exist. I think he had the most lines in this last episode, and he didnt say much.

    This is why the son is expendable. Daughter has too much going on. Plus the son is a more direct allegory for Issa.

    I still want to find out that Nazir knew about the impending bombing (from the still-unnamed CIA mole) and decided not to pull Issa out of the school. That would be the thing that finally broke Brody.

    I think the impact of losing his son would be minimized by the complete lack of a person the son is, I agree however the parallel between Issa and the son (Im pretty sure we share the same name but I cant be 100% because hes so forgettable) is a pretty good reason to kill him off.
    Im not convinced that Issa was Nazir's son/killed in the attack/dead at all. Or if he was that who Brody was interacting with was Nazir's son. Or maybe Nazir is totally okay with killing off his children in a grand attempt to turn Brody.

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    DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    emp123 wrote: »
    emp123 wrote: »
    If they kill anyone it will be the daughter because the son basically doesnt exist. I think he had the most lines in this last episode, and he didnt say much.

    This is why the son is expendable. Daughter has too much going on. Plus the son is a more direct allegory for Issa.

    I still want to find out that Nazir knew about the impending bombing (from the still-unnamed CIA mole) and decided not to pull Issa out of the school. That would be the thing that finally broke Brody.

    I think the impact of losing his son would be minimized by the complete lack of a person the son is, I agree however the parallel between Issa and the son (Im pretty sure we share the same name but I cant be 100% because hes so forgettable) is a pretty good reason to kill him off.
    Im not convinced that Issa was Nazir's son/killed in the attack/dead at all. Or if he was that who Brody was interacting with was Nazir's son. Or maybe Nazir is totally okay with killing off his children in a grand attempt to turn Brody.

    I share the same doubts, however
    at the end of the last season, Carrie noticed a pattern in the reports (posted on her Wall of Crazy) that suggested that Nazir was in mourning.

    It would be a similar wake-up call for Brody if they actually found the real Issa alive, or determined that he never existed at all.

    I'm leery of anything we've seen from Nazir. Guy's rep on the show as a mastermind cannot be underestimated.

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    Namel3ssNamel3ss Registered User regular
    edited October 2012
    syndalis wrote: »
    zeeny wrote: »
    When she said:
    ... "We'll protect your family." I had such high hopes that they will set up a series finale where she dies to save them, black screen, but then I remembered that we have a third season, and something that good either gets cancelled before the story is complete, or gets dragged out until it turns into Dexter.

    No offense, but that would be a terrible ending.

    My gut feeling is that Brody needs to suffer loss one more time at the hands of Nazir to really secure his loyalties. I feel like the best possible outcome for this show will be a Brody who loses his son, and takes Nazir out for it. Possibly at the expense of his own life.

    I think the loss at the hands of Nazir that will send Brody over the edge will be that the CIA figures out Nazir
    purposefully leaked his whereabouts being next to that school, in order to give Brody the tragedy needed to build his psyche from the ground up. Then when Brody finds out he was willing to sacrifice his own son, will break down and turn against him. In the meantime he is going to do his best to drag his feet helping out the CIA and will warn Nazir.
    EDIT: Scratch that, even though Carry identified that period of inactivity from Nazir in her wall of crazy that she felt indicated mourning. I'm betting that kid wasn't even the real Issa, just some orphan they picked up just after they captured Brody and Tom, he would have just been an infant then. The real long play.

    Namel3ss on
    May the wombat of happiness snuffle through your underbrush.
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    XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    Notice how no one is talking about the daughters big plot line. Her dating life, no matter who she's dating or how much they simulate Grand Theft Auto, is just filler. So she's easily expendable as well. So it's a toss up.

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    emp123emp123 Registered User regular
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Notice how no one is talking about the daughters big plot line. Her dating life, no matter who she's dating or how much they simulate Grand Theft Auto, is just filler. So she's easily expendable as well. So it's a toss up.

    Nobody talks about because its not really that important, but at least you could describe her if someone asked. The son? Fuck if I know; he played Call of Duty shortly after his father, who was tortured for eight years, returned home.

    Also, did it bug anyone else when the daughter
    accused the mother of interrogating her after the "My dad is a Muslim" incident? Like, her dad is right there maybe use a word other thaninterrogation. If not to be sensitive to the fucking hell he lived through, then maybe because it opens you wide up to your parents responding with "I was beat and tortured for 8 fucking years, you dont know what an interrogation is.

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    DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Notice how no one is talking about the daughters big plot line. Her dating life, no matter who she's dating or how much they simulate Grand Theft Auto, is just filler. So she's easily expendable as well. So it's a toss up.

    Not really.

    She's the only one who "gets" her dad. The only member of the family that he can talk to.

    We're not talking about her plotline because the main plot would be more at home as a season cliffhanger, and it's only episode 3. Her plot is overshadowed; it doesn't mean it's bad or not memorable.

    I for one think it's interesting that she's the one keeping secrets from Brody, instead of the other way around (and on the day when Brody himself started telling the truth to his wife).

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    XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    Brody is keeping a secret still. A pretty damn big one. A bit bigger than his religion. She only THINKS she gets him. He's abusing her trust and love. Of course, he's doing the same with everyone.

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    TomantaTomanta Registered User regular
    The daughter's plot seems like filler now, but I'm betting it ties in later, if only thematically. I don't think it is a coincidence that she is dating and getting into trouble with the VP's son.

    But for now it's not that interesting and the big part of it in Sunday's episode edged too close to cliche for my tastes.

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    Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    So Damien Lewis won the Oscar again in this episode

    Good on him

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    SimpsoniaSimpsonia Registered User regular
    While Damien Lewis was pretty awesome, I think Clare edged him out for a better performance. I just loved her part going on and on without him speaking at all.

    Does anyone else get the feeling though that CIA new guy is being setup to be Carrie's new love interest, and possible mole for Nazir later on down the road? At the very least I see the love interest angle playing out from his conversation with Carrie about DC restaurants, and then with him giving up on Brody and instantly deciding to take the bad-cop approach to let Carrie have a run at him. And of course since drama has to be kept at all times he is either a double-agent mole or is killed off to give Carrie a new motivation.

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    XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    I doubt it. They'll keep the 'It's Crazy, But I Love You Brody, Really!' angle going until the bitter end.

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    TomantaTomanta Registered User regular
    Simpsonia wrote: »
    Simpsonia wrote: »
    While Damien Lewis was pretty awesome, I think Clare edged him out for a better performance. I just loved her part going on and on without him speaking at all.

    Does anyone else get the feeling though that CIA new guy is being setup to be Carrie's new love interest, and possible mole for Nazir later on down the road? At the very least I see the love interest angle playing out from his conversation with Carrie about DC restaurants, and then with him giving up on Brody and instantly deciding to take the bad-cop approach to let Carrie have a run at him. And of course since drama has to be kept at all times he is either a double-agent mole or is killed off to give Carrie a new motivation.

    If this was 24, I'd say both.

    Since this is Homeland, I say neither. Maybe love interest.

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    DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    Right now the best candidate for mole is
    the extraneous CIA guy that seems harmless. The fellow that was supposed to call her if they changed the debriefing time after Beruit, but didn't. Used to think it was Estes, but that would just be too awkward now.

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    InvisibleInvisible Registered User regular
    edited October 2012
    They haven't even mentioned the mole this season have they?

    Invisible on
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    DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    Invisible wrote: »
    They haven't even mentioned the mole this season have they?

    There might have been one early mention, but no, for the most part they haven't said a damn thing. Which is super suspicious.

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    SammyFSammyF Registered User regular
    I think Danes was fantastic. She has this way of looking like a dog that knows it's going to get scolded for shitting on the carpet every time she's summoned into a room with Saul and Estes, which is perfect because that's basically the role she's playing: perpetual case officer fuck who is always having her nose rubbed in the mess she just made, right before she does something brilliant.

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    MadCaddyMadCaddy Registered User regular
    Right now the best candidate for mole is
    the extraneous CIA guy that seems harmless. The fellow that was supposed to call her if they changed the debriefing time after Beruit, but didn't. Used to think it was Estes, but that would just be too awkward now.

    Actually the candidate for the mole is (speculative spoiler, but the one that has made me kinda angry at how slow the non-Carrie plot progression has seemed)
    Saul.. He has a beard, failed the polygraph, and I forgot but there was another slight bit of foreshadowing in an earlier episode.

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    DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    MadCaddy wrote: »
    Right now the best candidate for mole is
    the extraneous CIA guy that seems harmless. The fellow that was supposed to call her if they changed the debriefing time after Beruit, but didn't. Used to think it was Estes, but that would just be too awkward now.

    Actually the candidate for the mole is (speculative spoiler, but the one that has made me kinda angry at how slow the non-Carrie plot progression has seemed)
    Saul.. He has a beard, failed the polygraph, and I forgot but there was another slight bit of foreshadowing in an earlier episode.

    So many things about this show would be going differently if that were true. I mean, I know they set it up as a possibility, but I just can't find any validity in the concept.
    Why would Saul go through all that trouble to get the Brody confession recording out of Beruit if he were the mole? Why would he go out on a limb to help Carrie and set up the black bag operation on Brody? Honestly, I'm sure that the show could theoretically claim that he's playing some sort of Nazir-worthy long con to test Brody, but with the information we have, it seems so unlikely. Even Estes is more likely.

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    SammyFSammyF Registered User regular
    You left out
    Why would he help transport the Caucasian female from Mexico and reveal that the other Marine sniper was in play? Why would he greenlight the Beirut operation?

    I thought him failing the polygraph was incredibly suspicious, too, but without him the CIA would be totally in the dark.

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    DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    SammyF wrote: »
    You left out
    Why would he help transport the Caucasian female from Mexico and reveal that the other Marine sniper was in play? Why would he greenlight the Beirut operation?

    I thought him failing the polygraph was incredibly suspicious, too, but without him the CIA would be totally in the dark.

    The polygraph
    was always a red herring. Polygraphs are sometimes wrong (thus why they're indamissable in court); Saul was under a lot of stress in his personal life at that moment, which is why he failed. Hell, Brody aced his poly, and we all know that he's so deep in the shit that he barely knows which way is up.

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    RT800RT800 Registered User regular
    The very idea of a "lie detecting" machine is hilarious to me.

    Ohhh the amount of bullshit some people will buy.

    That's right up there with mood rings and x-ray goggles.

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    electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    SammyF wrote: »
    You left out
    Why would he help transport the Caucasian female from Mexico and reveal that the other Marine sniper was in play? Why would he greenlight the Beirut operation?

    I thought him failing the polygraph was incredibly suspicious, too, but without him the CIA would be totally in the dark.

    The polygraph
    was always a red herring. Polygraphs are sometimes wrong (thus why they're indamissable in court); Saul was under a lot of stress in his personal life at that moment, which is why he failed. Hell, Brody aced his poly, and we all know that he's so deep in the shit that he barely knows which way is up.

    This.

    The show is pretty on the up and up about stupid bullshit America does about intelligence, and the over-emphasis of polygraphs is a good one.

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    HandgimpHandgimp R+L=J Family PhotoRegistered User regular
    SammyF wrote: »
    You left out
    Why would he help transport the Caucasian female from Mexico and reveal that the other Marine sniper was in play? Why would he greenlight the Beirut operation?

    I thought him failing the polygraph was incredibly suspicious, too, but without him the CIA would be totally in the dark.

    The polygraph
    was always a red herring. Polygraphs are sometimes wrong (thus why they're indamissable in court); Saul was under a lot of stress in his personal life at that moment, which is why he failed. Hell, Brody aced his poly, and we all know that he's so deep in the shit that he barely knows which way is up.

    This.

    The show is pretty on the up and up about stupid bullshit America does about intelligence, and the over-emphasis of polygraphs is a good one.

    Truth. On the bright side, I managed to attain and keep my TS(SCI) without ever doing a polygraph. The security officer told me at the ~3 year point that I'd been around too long and they were too afraid to sign me up for one; he probably wasn't serious though.

    PwH4Ipj.jpg
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    SammyFSammyF Registered User regular
    Man I don't know what you all are talking about, polygraphs are awesome. Sure, they are inadmissible, but they are invaluable as an interrogation device.

    I remember a story from law school about a gang member who was sat down in front of a lie detector, and he was so nervous whenever he got called on a lie that he folded and gave the detective everything he knew.

    The punchline is that he wasn't hooked up to a polygraph. He was hooked up to a photocopier. Whenever he answered a question, a detective in the next room would initiate a print job and spit out another page that simply read "False."

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    jakobaggerjakobagger LO THY DREAD EMPIRE CHAOS IS RESTORED Registered User regular
    SammyF wrote: »
    Man I don't know what you all are talking about, polygraphs are awesome. Sure, they are inadmissible, but they are invaluable as an interrogation device.

    I remember a story from law school about a gang member who was sat down in front of a lie detector, and he was so nervous whenever he got called on a lie that he folded and gave the detective everything he knew.

    The punchline is that he wasn't hooked up to a polygraph. He was hooked up to a photocopier. Whenever he answered a question, a detective in the next room would initiate a print job and spit out another page that simply read "False."

    That is (also?) a scene from the Wire.

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    SammyFSammyF Registered User regular
    Yeah they took that from a real case.

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    dlinfinitidlinfiniti Registered User regular
    having the daughter be
    an accessory to vehicular manslaughter
    seemed like some bit of shark jumping, that's such a ridiculous plot point that they have to address at some point and it'll have to be big as to affect body's plot which I really don't look forward to
    I just want to see more political intrigue and less teenage shenanigans
    also it's hilarious that the veep's son has better secret service coverage than brody does

    AAAAA!!! PLAAAYGUUU!!!!
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    also it's hilarious that the veep's son has better secret service coverage than brody does

    Is Brody even "officially" the candidate yet? When does Secret Service protection start...after the convention and nomination, or prior?

    Even assuming he is already a candidate for realsies, I don't find it hard to imagine that the immediate family member of a sitting Vice President would have better coverage than somebody who may or may not ever get elected.

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    emp123emp123 Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    also it's hilarious that the veep's son has better secret service coverage than brody does

    Is Brody even "officially" the candidate yet? When does Secret Service protection start...after the convention and nomination, or prior?

    Even assuming he is already a candidate for realsies, I don't find it hard to imagine that the immediate family member of a sitting Vice President would have better coverage than somebody who may or may not ever get elected.

    Im not 100% on this, but I think its before the convention but after the final primaries/the veep pick is announced.

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    DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    Usually Secret Service coverage starts sometime after you're officially chosen (which Brody hasn't). Exceptions can be made if it seems like there is a credible threat (which is why Obama got early coverage).

    Wheras the children of the President and VP pretty much always get round the clock coverage.

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    MadCaddyMadCaddy Registered User regular
    Re: Saul I know it seems like it's impossible, but it seems like it's a logical long character arc to give the show some legs (season-wise).. Hence why I'm kinda antsy about seeing what way it goes.. and I'm not saying the polygraph was the only evidence (there is a lot more, and I can go on and on about how and why he would still do the things he did, even with what I've said), but even those who've disagreed have admitted it's a possibility, so I'm just saying my moneys on one side of it for now.. P.S. Beard!

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    DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    edited October 2012
    MadCaddy wrote: »
    I can go on and on about how and why he would still do the things he did, even with what I've said), but even those who've disagreed have admitted it's a possibility, so I'm just saying my moneys on one side of it for now.. P.S. Beard!

    Abraham Lincoln had a beard, and he was one of our greatest presidents.

    Anyway, I am morbidly curious as to how Saul could be the mole. How do you account for
    him planning and enacting the Beruit assassination attempt? It took Brody texting from the goddamn situation room to get Nazir out of that, and they still very nearly had a shot. They got two of Nazir's top guys anyway.

    If Saul were the mole, the insertion team and dozens of blocks around them would have been exploded, and when you looked down on the devistation from orbit, the burn pattern would read, "Can't catch me, muthafuckas! I'm Nazir, REPRESENT."

    Plus, half of the breakthroughs against Nazir in this show have been because Saul just let Carrie do her manic thing, against his better judgement. There's no way Nazir could account for Carrie being brilliantly nuts; he'd want to eliminate that chaotic element from the mix, and Saul was in a position to do just that.

    Dracomicron on
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    RT800RT800 Registered User regular
    edited October 2012
    Easy:
    Saul is the mastermind behind everything, coordinating attacks from inside the CIA itself! Abu Nazir is just a red herring. He lets Carrie do her thing because the more she focuses on Nazir and Brody, the less she focuses on him.

    Ohhhh Saul, you sneaky sneaky bastard...

    RT800 on
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    SammyFSammyF Registered User regular
    Way to make Carrie look like she's the sane one. :)

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    I don't know, it kinda makes sense.

    Oh, wait, this isn't 24.

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    MadCaddyMadCaddy Registered User regular
    RT800 wrote: »
    Easy:
    Saul is the mastermind behind everything, coordinating attacks from inside the CIA itself! Abu Nazir is just a red herring. He lets Carrie do her thing because the more she focuses on Nazir and Brody, the less she focuses on him.

    Ohhhh Saul, you sneaky sneaky bastard...

    ^ This, or he is a significant player in big time decision making, has mixed allegiances, but that's one of the things this show has really given itself is some different paths for narrative, depending on the length of their run (hopefully that emmy gives it enough to plan 3 or 4 seasons, and they can avoid too much filler syndrome..).

    Re Nazir: I think his exposure to Brody makes him kinda a weak 'mastermind'.. That's just my prejudice, and expectations for this sortta thing, but I dunno.. We'll see how things develop. I'm just kinda over the whole Carrie/Brody forbidden love.. It's wonderfully done, and 100% on me, it's just gotten a lot more play where I'm looking more for intelligence/loyalty shades of gray storyline.

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    MadCaddyMadCaddy Registered User regular
    edited November 2012
    Oh also,
    when Carrie got caught Saul was the one who informed on her, and then his whole being a father figure and 'helping' her after being the one most likely to finally phone it in to get himself even further under the radar.. He knows Brodie is weak, and has betrayed the brotherhood already. Gotta view a lotta of the actions as pawns, and also remember that since it's serialized, it's gotta leave itself good narrative advancement options to stay on the air. I think Nazir is ultimately gonna be a puppet, and it's quite possible, and quite the change if Carrie became the inside agent, even without knowing it.
    MadCaddy wrote: »
    I can go on and on about how and why he would still do the things he did, even with what I've said), but even those who've disagreed have admitted it's a possibility, so I'm just saying my moneys on one side of it for now.. P.S. Beard!

    Abraham Lincoln had a beard, and he was one of our greatest presidents.

    Anyway, I am morbidly curious as to how Saul could be the mole. How do you account for
    him planning and enacting the Beruit assassination attempt? It took Brody texting from the goddamn situation room to get Nazir out of that, and they still very nearly had a shot. They got two of Nazir's top guys anyway.

    If Saul were the mole, the insertion team and dozens of blocks around them would have been exploded, and when you looked down on the devistation from orbit, the burn pattern would read, "Can't catch me, muthafuckas! I'm Nazir, REPRESENT."

    Plus, half of the breakthroughs against Nazir in this show have been because Saul just let Carrie do her manic thing, against his better judgement. There's no way Nazir could account for Carrie being brilliantly nuts; he'd want to eliminate that chaotic element from the mix, and Saul was in a position to do just that.

    MadCaddy on
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    InvisibleInvisible Registered User regular
    edited November 2012
    I'm really interested in where the teenage shenanigans will go. Possibly the most interesting storyline so far. Does anyone else think she's two-timing Xander with the VP son even though she totally said she broke up with him?
    And what about that
    hit and run?
    can you say DRAMA!

    Seriously there better be a payoff to it.
    He ran down the mole.

    Invisible on
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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    Wow those terrorists uh

    Did not see that coming

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