I didnt know that we had 25% of the worlds prisoners in america, thats pretty shocking. However the first counter arguement I know I would hear against that is "yeah but they just kill them/maim them and let them go other places"(And these arent counted)
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zepherinRussian warship, go fuck yourselfRegistered Userregular
I know a few people who have done hard time, and they never really felt like they were going to be raped. They were more concerned with beatings and fist fights. One of them said that there were so many people who were willing to have sex that rape was really only a punishment.
I didnt know that we had 25% of the worlds prisoners in america, thats pretty shocking. However the first counter arguement I know I would hear against that is "yeah but they just kill them/maim them and let them go other places"(And these arent counted)
No other country wants to spend the insane $$$ it costs to keep people away for as long as it does. And can afford it.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
So let's see here. We disproportionately convict blacks of felonies and sentence them to prison. What happens when you're in prison? Well, you can't vote. In most states, you can't vote after you get out, either.
This means that we're taking young black men out of urban population centers, stripping them of the right to vote, and moving them out to rural areas... this diminishes the representation of their home urban counties and increases the representation of rural counties.
It's basically double disenfranchisement.
This has come up many times in the past on the forum across various discussions and it fits this thread too. Out here where I live there's a lot of guys who turn in work applications to the places I've worked with felony "yes" boxes checked. And y'know, none of them get hired. They also generally have politically left attitudes, but y'know, can't vote, and this area shows up super strong as Bible-country.
This can tie into that topic about the war on voting.
I had a friend who went in to jail for something, and I felt it was for a period of more then a year(despite what I am hearing around here that 1 year+ = prison), but it was cut short and he only spent like 9 months(maybe like 13?) in. He pretty much said that you keep your head down, cooperate without stepping on heels, and guards will treat you ok. people will try to start shit with you all the time (theres nothing to do but play cards, smoke,read, drink coffee and start drama), but you just have to avoid it and the people who cause it. I told him before he was going in it was "high school with less shankings", but haven't gotten the after reports on if its true to life, but it sounds pretty close.
It depends on the jurisdiction and how their penal code and corrections system is set up.
In some states you can be in jail for sentences of up to 2 years if it's a low level felony or a high level misdemeanor with a sentencing enhancement.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
An argument that actually gets very little press is the fact that so many of the prisoners in our jails are certifiably mentally ill. A quick Googling of the subject reveals data that suggests that no less that over half of our convicts are mentally ill, and in some cases the percentage is estimated as high as 75%.
So not only are we penalizing behavior in an inefficient and unproductive manner, what little rehabilitation and help we're offering is likely wrong or unsuited. The funny thing is, our long-term psychiatric facilities are quite humane and have much lower incidence of violence and abuse, and frequently accept those convicted of violent crimes.
It seems on the surface that the solution is obvious:
- Decriminalize drug possession
- Discontinue policies that give unwarranted preferential enforcement (i.e., the crack v. cocaine debacle)
- Eliminate death row if the process and costs can't be streamlined effectively while maintaining veracity.
- Appropriately treat and remove the genuinely mentally ill.
50% is way too much, what constitute a mental illness in the reports you've read? Its not that I'm saying its wrong, its just, I want to be sure before I pose this argument to others.
I think it's both hysterical and disingenuous to assume that any particular aspect of American society is a direct reflection on 312 million people.
Not only is there going to be a substantial fraction of the population who disagrees with almost any given point, there is also a political and social inertia that prevents anything from reforming as rapidly as people's views might. The truth is, America has reformed it's prisons before. In order for it to happen it took some noteworthy social reformers to make it the primary topic of public discourse. Once that happened, changes were pushed through.
It is likely that we will have another round of prison reform eventually, but it's not going to happen while other social and economic problems are more pressing.
In the meantime, crowing about how our prison system is a sign that we're all terrible people is very useless and isn't going to do anything to increase awareness. And unless you are applying the same metric to other countries (This means Scandinavians are all sainted angelic beings and every islamic country is filled with evil people) it's hypocritical as hell.
Can long-term psychiatric facilities force people to take their meds? Folks in jail, though they have limited rights, are still competent so I believe they can decline medical treatment. I'm sure there are a lot of reasons(including the attitudes held by administrators), for the difference in levels of violence in corrections facilities and longer term mental health dealies, but was wondering if that was one.
I know a lot of petty criminals(drugs, poor responses to police officers) who have been to jail. Here, it is not pleasant, but not really horrific. Rape isn't a huge thing and the threat of violence is common but not really constant. Frankly, there is a fair amount of social networking, which gives parolees exactly the sort of support structures that are going to keep them in the system. There aren't huge gang problems or calcified prisoner power structures, because of the revolving door nature of jails. I'm not friends with anyone who has got out of prison. The few random folks I've spoken with described it as being a lot more violent, with sort of codified hierarchies and unwritten rules. No one I've spoken with who's been to prison has mentioned rape, but... well regardless of which end you are on, it's not something you'd bring up in most company.
I think it's both hysterical and disingenuous to assume that any particular aspect of American society is a direct reflection on 312 million people.
Not only is there going to be a substantial fraction of the population who disagrees with almost any given point, there is also a political and social inertia that prevents anything from reforming as rapidly as people's views might. The truth is, America has reformed it's prisons before. In order for it to happen it took some noteworthy social reformers to make it the primary topic of public discourse. Once that happened, changes were pushed through.
It is likely that we will have another round of prison reform eventually, but it's not going to happen while other social and economic problems are more pressing.
In the meantime, crowing about how our prison system is a sign that we're all terrible people is very useless and isn't going to do anything to increase awareness. And unless you are applying the same metric to other countries (This means Scandinavians are all sainted angelic beings and every islamic country is filled with evil people) it's hypocritical as hell.
The political unfeasibility of changing the prison system says alot about the American electorate.
The U.S. once had a nationwide system of mental hospitals for the mentally ill. Reagan dismantled it, which is one of the reasons the homeless population exploded. The hospitals were genuinely terrible - see One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest - but this was the first wave of the conservative revolution, when at least there was a bit of innocence in thinking the best way to reform a government program was to get rid of it and let "freedom" work it out.
So, yes, prisons and jails do the job that the state mental hospitals used to.
I think it's both hysterical and disingenuous to assume that any particular aspect of American society is a direct reflection on 312 million people.
Not only is there going to be a substantial fraction of the population who disagrees with almost any given point, there is also a political and social inertia that prevents anything from reforming as rapidly as people's views might. The truth is, America has reformed it's prisons before. In order for it to happen it took some noteworthy social reformers to make it the primary topic of public discourse. Once that happened, changes were pushed through.
It is likely that we will have another round of prison reform eventually, but it's not going to happen while other social and economic problems are more pressing.
In the meantime, crowing about how our prison system is a sign that we're all terrible people is very useless and isn't going to do anything to increase awareness. And unless you are applying the same metric to other countries (This means Scandinavians are all sainted angelic beings and every islamic country is filled with evil people) it's hypocritical as hell.
The political unfeasibility of changing the prison system says alot about the American electorate.
It says "The American electorate is most concerned about the faltering economy."
Which isn't a very long sentence. Anything else is just you moralizing about other people.
I think it's both hysterical and disingenuous to assume that any particular aspect of American society is a direct reflection on 312 million people.
Not only is there going to be a substantial fraction of the population who disagrees with almost any given point, there is also a political and social inertia that prevents anything from reforming as rapidly as people's views might. The truth is, America has reformed it's prisons before. In order for it to happen it took some noteworthy social reformers to make it the primary topic of public discourse. Once that happened, changes were pushed through.
It is likely that we will have another round of prison reform eventually, but it's not going to happen while other social and economic problems are more pressing.
In the meantime, crowing about how our prison system is a sign that we're all terrible people is very useless and isn't going to do anything to increase awareness. And unless you are applying the same metric to other countries (This means Scandinavians are all sainted angelic beings and every islamic country is filled with evil people) it's hypocritical as hell.
The political unfeasibility of changing the prison system says alot about the American electorate.
It says "The American electorate is most concerned about the faltering economy."
Which isn't a very long sentence. Anything else is just you moralizing about other people.
No, it says alot more then that. Shit, just look at the reaction to Obama trying to close Gitmo.
Your problem here Regina Fong is that you are ignoring how this situation actually plays out. The electorate doesn't go "The Economy is more important!" when you talk about making US prisons less of a hellhole. They go "OMG, you pansy murderer lover! You want to kill our children by letting rapists out of prison and dropping them off at elementary schools!!".
The american electorate reacts with panic and vitriol at attempts to make the life of prisoners less awful. There are only 2 possible stances in American politics: "Just as tough on crime as we are now!" and "Tougher on crime!"
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
50% is way too much, what constitute a mental illness in the reports you've read? Its not that I'm saying its wrong, its just, I want to be sure before I pose this argument to others.
Not sure, honestly, but I'd guess they'd start with more minor things like mood disorders, addiction issues, and impulse control (which respond better to treatment) and range all the way up to things like schizophrenia, delusional disorders, and schizo-affective disorders, which don't typically respond meaningfully well.
My grandmother's stepson is doing life for murder, and his cellmate is doing life for triple murder and rape. Oddly, I'd have no problem with either of them being put to death, but both are clearly mentally ill.
More than half the country was enthusiastically supportive of closing gitmo, and virtually every single person I've talked to-conservative and liberal alike, considered it a betrayal of campaign promises when he reneged on it. So I haven't a clue what you're talking about.
I had a friend who went in to jail for something, and I felt it was for a period of more then a year(despite what I am hearing around here that 1 year+ = prison), but it was cut short and he only spent like 9 months(maybe like 13?) in. He pretty much said that you keep your head down, cooperate without stepping on heels, and guards will treat you ok. people will try to start shit with you all the time (theres nothing to do but play cards, smoke,read, drink coffee and start drama), but you just have to avoid it and the people who cause it. I told him before he was going in it was "high school with less shankings", but haven't gotten the after reports on if its true to life, but it sounds pretty close.
People in jail for minor offenses have a lot more incentive to do their time quietly and move on with their lives. A hardened criminal doing a 20 year stint in prison doesn't really give a shit about the future. But some guy doing 90 days for a DUI or 6 months for some low-end drug crime isn't going to suddenly turn into a murderous rapist.
Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
Rigorous Scholarship
I think it's both hysterical and disingenuous to assume that any particular aspect of American society is a direct reflection on 312 million people.
Not only is there going to be a substantial fraction of the population who disagrees with almost any given point, there is also a political and social inertia that prevents anything from reforming as rapidly as people's views might. The truth is, America has reformed it's prisons before. In order for it to happen it took some noteworthy social reformers to make it the primary topic of public discourse. Once that happened, changes were pushed through.
It is likely that we will have another round of prison reform eventually, but it's not going to happen while other social and economic problems are more pressing.
In the meantime, crowing about how our prison system is a sign that we're all terrible people is very useless and isn't going to do anything to increase awareness. And unless you are applying the same metric to other countries (This means Scandinavians are all sainted angelic beings and every islamic country is filled with evil people) it's hypocritical as hell.
The political unfeasibility of changing the prison system says alot about the American electorate.
It says "The American electorate is most concerned about the faltering economy."
Which isn't a very long sentence. Anything else is just you moralizing about other people.
Sorry, I wasn't aware the America's jails were in some sudden decline that has only existed since the start of our economic hardship. I was under that, though over population is a growing problem, our jails have been pretty much garbage since the 80s.
It's kinda hard to believe that during the general prosperity of the 80s and 90s, no significant advancement has been made on the shittynesss of American jails, but somehow the electorate is going to care about prisons once we are out of this recession.
TL;DR: American's don't give a shit about the quality of their corrections facilities, and they will always be able to find more pressing social and economic problems.
Sorry, I wasn't aware the America's jails were in some sudden decline that has only existed since the start of our economic hardship. I was under that, though over population is a growing problem, our jails have been pretty much garbage since the 80s.
It's kinda hard to believe that during the general prosperity of the 80s and 90s, no significant advancement has been made on the shittynesss of American jails, but somehow the electorate is going to care about prisons once we are out of this recession.
TL;DR: American's don't give a shit about the quality of their corrections facilities, and they will always be able to find more pressing social and economic problems.
The prisons were made more harsh at least partly in response to the increase in crime seen in the 70's-80's. Violent crime has been on the downturn since the 90's. Correlation or causation? That's a really complicated question. But, to the average American, more prisons=less crime. Our current approach to prisons seems to be working, so long as you don't have to go to prison yourself. Criminals stay in jail for a long time, crime goes down and average Americans are safer. It's tough to argue against the status quo.
Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
Rigorous Scholarship
More than half the country was enthusiastically supportive of closing gitmo, and virtually every single person I've talked to-conservative and liberal alike, considered it a betrayal of campaign promises when he reneged on it. So I haven't a clue what you're talking about.
The NIMBY stuff that happened afterwards, people wanted it closed but they didn't want the people there moved to prisons near them.
Sorry, I wasn't aware the America's jails were in some sudden decline that has only existed since the start of our economic hardship. I was under that, though over population is a growing problem, our jails have been pretty much garbage since the 80s.
It's kinda hard to believe that during the general prosperity of the 80s and 90s, no significant advancement has been made on the shittynesss of American jails, but somehow the electorate is going to care about prisons once we are out of this recession.
TL;DR: American's don't give a shit about the quality of their corrections facilities, and they will always be able to find more pressing social and economic problems.
The prisons were made more harsh at least partly in response to the increase in crime seen in the 70's-80's. Violent crime has been on the downturn since the 90's. Correlation or causation? That's a really complicated question. But, to the average American, more prisons=less crime. Our current approach to prisons seems to be working, so long as you don't have to go to prison yourself. Criminals stay in jail for a long time, crime goes down and average Americans are safer. It's tough to argue against the status quo.
It isn't that hard to argue against the status quo when you look at global crime numbers, and see similar decreases in violent crime in all first world nations regardless of how badly the abuse their criminals.
Arguing in favor of treating criminals better isn't a great sound bite, though. No one has any incentive to do so, whether politicians or voters.
Like I said, our approach to criminal justice and punishment seems to work for the average American. There's no real incentive to fiddle with it at this point.
Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
Rigorous Scholarship
I was kinda replying to the post I quoted there. You are arguing the the average America gets benefits from the criminal justice system and that they give tacit approval to this system they benefit from.
This kinda means the electorate is complicit in the abuses caused by the system and are therefor culpable in the harm it causes. That is sort of the opposite of what Regina Fong was arguing. The shitty conditions of our jails say a lot about America in that case, and it sure isn't 'Oh, we are soooo horribly worried about the economic weather that we can't focus on fixing prisons right now'.
Arguing in favor of treating criminals better isn't a great sound bite, though. No one has any incentive to do so, whether politicians or voters.
Like I said, our approach to criminal justice and punishment seems to work for the average American. There's no real incentive to fiddle with it at this point.
Which is exactly the point. The american prison system is horrendous but fixing it doesn't make a good sound bite because the electorate really dislikes the idea of being "nice" (read: humane) to prisoners.
As the population ages, our prison population is probably going to decrease, so the issue is likely to recede even further from the public's eye.
What, exactly, is going to cause this decrease? Because it certainly isn't prison reform, or criminal code reform. It's also not going to be
budget constraints, because every time you try to cut funding from prisons, they say "if you cut our budget, we'll release a bunch of murderers and rapists." So, it's not going to come from there.
Are you suggesting that people will simply stop committing crimes because they're old? Because I think you'll find that recidivism rates aren't going to be going down with the state cutting social services and government jobs (which are some of the only good jobs you can get if you're a convicted criminal). Where is this magical reduction going to come from?
Agreed. I don't think legitimate penal reform is ever going to be an issue with an outpouring of public support and call for change.
Did you mean without? Because if so, I completely agree. The major american prison reform movement of a century ago was led by social reformers, not politicians. Expecting people who have to run for office and reelection to lead the charge is beyond silly.
That said, its much easier to sit back, adjust your monacle, and pass sweeping judgement on 300 million people than it is to start a grass roots prison reform movement.
Can long-term psychiatric facilities force people to take their meds?
If they're under custody of the state or institution in question, yes.
If you're an adult, usually the only way to end up under that kind of custody is to have broken the law. If you're a minor, then your rights are significantly curtailed in comparison - all it can take is a parent sending you off to a home or camp. (Minors sent to shady mental health treatment facilities where their human rights are flagrantly violated is actually a pretty big problem, but is probably off-topic for this thread.)
This is kind of an interesting question for me. If somebody hasn't broken the law, then as far as I'm concerned they should be free to wander the streets and mutter all they want. I kind of agree with Thomas Szasz on that. However, it's pretty easy for a crazy homeless person to end up in the criminal justice fold, just by violating trespassing laws or laws against sleeping in the park. We have, in a lot of municipalities, criminalized being crazy.
Arguing in favor of treating criminals better isn't a great sound bite, though. No one has any incentive to do so, whether politicians or voters.
Like I said, our approach to criminal justice and punishment seems to work for the average American. There's no real incentive to fiddle with it at this point.
Reducing recidivism should be incentive enough.
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every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
I wonder if the statistics will show an increase in crime (or at least people being incarcerated) during the recession years. I don't have the statistics handy, but I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people locked away in prison come from poor or otherwise disadvantaged backgrounds. Working from that standpoint, it makes sense that as more people rise above the poverty line, fewer will turn to crime as their perceived best option. With more people falling below the poverty line again, will that trend reverse? Or is there more at work here than simple opportunity and prosperity?
I think the Republican jobs plan is to make the economy worse, so we have more criminals, so we need more prisons, so we have to hire more prison guards, so we create more jobs.
Are you suggesting that people will simply stop committing crimes because they're old? Because I think you'll find that recidivism rates aren't going to be going down with the state cutting social services and government jobs (which are some of the only good jobs you can get if you're a convicted criminal). Where is this magical reduction going to come from?
Yes, older people tend to commit less crimes, per capita. An aging population is going to see a decrease in its crime rate. Crime (especially violent crime) is, generally, a young man's game.
I wonder if the statistics will show an increase in crime (or at least people being incarcerated) during the recession years. I don't have the statistics handy, but I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people locked away in prison come from poor or otherwise disadvantaged backgrounds. Working from that standpoint, it makes sense that as more people rise above the poverty line, fewer will turn to crime as their perceived best option. With more people falling below the poverty line again, will that trend reverse? Or is there more at work here than simple opportunity and prosperity?
Crime has actually continued its downward trend during the recession, which has surprised a lot of people and fought expectations:
1) the theory you present
2) all the state/local government cut backs lessening the size of police departments
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
We have, in a lot of municipalities, criminalized being crazy.
Aside from being a budgetary nightmare, as someone with experience with those state institutions, I'm not wholly against that mindset.
People with advanced mental illness are often timebombs, and aren't subject to rational processes. My clinical study patient was a really nice guy with a masters' degree from Penn State in computer science who murdered his mother one night because his bedpost convinced him God wanted her in heaven.
Crime has actually continued its downward trend during the recession, which has surprised a lot of people and fought expectations:
1) the theory you present
2) all the state/local government cut backs lessening the size of police departments
So it is significantly more complicated an issue than a simple view of "more prosperity equals less crime." That's not really surprising I suppose. I'll have to see if I can find out what the leading theories are regarding the continued decline in crime, because I am quite obviously not an expert on this subject, yet I am curious to know more.
WRT to mentally ill homeless people, the law as it stands makes it very difficult to commit them against their will. That leaves communities with few options in dealing with the mentally ill, other than through law enforcement against quality of life crimes such as public drunkeness and sleeping in public parks.
The homeless can have a significant negative effect on public space that drives away other people. It's not surprising that lawmakers will side with familes and other non-homeless people who want to be able to use parks and trails without fear of mentally ill, intoxicated people.
Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
Rigorous Scholarship
I spent some time in jail, and managed to avoid prison. But I think we can stem this conversation more towards the causation of our flawed prison system. Our flailing justice system (flailing and failing, but flailing is more appropriate).
Over the last twenty years, and more so in the past decade, our justice system has become hell bent on handing out felonious convictions. Before I was 19, I had only had a single speeding ticket. I had done nothing wrong, and was generally an upstanding citizen. I hadn't even gone through a vandalism and property destruction phase in my teenage years like a lot of the people I knew in high school.
Then I got arrested for drugs. Now, granted, I went full bore and did commit some very large crimes, but we'll not talk about that. We'll focus on the fact that I did commit a felonious crime. I was sent to jail for a bit, and honestly found nothing wrong. Except for a very noticeable hilarity. There was very little in the way of control. A Deputy sat at a desk and read a book while the inmates hung out.
And got high. The amount of drugs available in the dorm was prodigious. Everyone was high about 75% of the time. Everything from pot to meth was available for commissary item trade. Nothing was done to stop this. The few times a person was caught getting high or being high, they were taken out of the dorm and returned the next day with stitches and bandages. Perhaps it was excusable, but I never heard of or saw anyone resist. All these people did was take advantage of the total lack of rules and control. The only fights that happened were between the guards and the inmates, and myself and the night-farts of my bunk mate.
Now, in sentencing, having zero previous record, the local narcotics division "losing" the evidence, and the CI who informed on me refusing to testify...I received 5 years of probation or a 5 year prison sentence. I of course took probation. On probation I have gotten zero rehabilitation, lived in constant fear of the whimsical desires of my PO, and was repeatedly cuffed and stuffed for no cause. Just to threaten me. As soon as I was taken to the jail I was released in the parking lot and told to find my way home. In 5 years, I have paid $50 a month to the state, have seen my PO a total of 10 times, have had 4 home visits and 4 UA's. Recently they raised the monthly fee to $60 in order to help pay for the PO's who have thousands of probationers under them and the state having not enough money to pay them.
The friends I have who are on probation (a shocking 84% of my friends have probation sentences for misdemeanor crimes that got escalated to felony in the plea agreement to avoid jury trials) can't find jobs, have little to no income and if they miss one payment (which I will remind you just got increased) will be violated, and re-sentenced and likely, sent to prison.
TL:DR There is no rehabilitation. There is no sense of order in the system. The justice system burns to create felons out of one time offenders (especially drug crimes). The probation system is just as corrupt with power and just as flawed as the prison system. The disenfranchised are exploited in all forms of "correction".
Perhaps this was a little off topic, but I think it bares saying. Ultimately? I feel victimized by the system. I have been given no chance to rectify other then throwing money I don't have at the city, or else I go to prison.
WRT to mentally ill homeless people, the law as it stands makes it very difficult to commit them against their will. That leaves communities with few options in dealing with the mentally ill, other than through law enforcement against quality of life crimes such as public drunkeness and sleeping in public parks.
The homeless can have a significant negative effect on public space that drives away other people. It's not surprising that lawmakers will side with familes and other non-homeless people who want to be able to use parks and trails without fear of mentally ill, intoxicated people.
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No other country wants to spend the insane $$$ it costs to keep people away for as long as it does. And can afford it.
This has come up many times in the past on the forum across various discussions and it fits this thread too. Out here where I live there's a lot of guys who turn in work applications to the places I've worked with felony "yes" boxes checked. And y'know, none of them get hired. They also generally have politically left attitudes, but y'know, can't vote, and this area shows up super strong as Bible-country.
This can tie into that topic about the war on voting.
In some states you can be in jail for sentences of up to 2 years if it's a low level felony or a high level misdemeanor with a sentencing enhancement.
So not only are we penalizing behavior in an inefficient and unproductive manner, what little rehabilitation and help we're offering is likely wrong or unsuited. The funny thing is, our long-term psychiatric facilities are quite humane and have much lower incidence of violence and abuse, and frequently accept those convicted of violent crimes.
It seems on the surface that the solution is obvious:
- Decriminalize drug possession
- Discontinue policies that give unwarranted preferential enforcement (i.e., the crack v. cocaine debacle)
- Eliminate death row if the process and costs can't be streamlined effectively while maintaining veracity.
- Appropriately treat and remove the genuinely mentally ill.
Not only is there going to be a substantial fraction of the population who disagrees with almost any given point, there is also a political and social inertia that prevents anything from reforming as rapidly as people's views might. The truth is, America has reformed it's prisons before. In order for it to happen it took some noteworthy social reformers to make it the primary topic of public discourse. Once that happened, changes were pushed through.
It is likely that we will have another round of prison reform eventually, but it's not going to happen while other social and economic problems are more pressing.
In the meantime, crowing about how our prison system is a sign that we're all terrible people is very useless and isn't going to do anything to increase awareness. And unless you are applying the same metric to other countries (This means Scandinavians are all sainted angelic beings and every islamic country is filled with evil people) it's hypocritical as hell.
I know a lot of petty criminals(drugs, poor responses to police officers) who have been to jail. Here, it is not pleasant, but not really horrific. Rape isn't a huge thing and the threat of violence is common but not really constant. Frankly, there is a fair amount of social networking, which gives parolees exactly the sort of support structures that are going to keep them in the system. There aren't huge gang problems or calcified prisoner power structures, because of the revolving door nature of jails. I'm not friends with anyone who has got out of prison. The few random folks I've spoken with described it as being a lot more violent, with sort of codified hierarchies and unwritten rules. No one I've spoken with who's been to prison has mentioned rape, but... well regardless of which end you are on, it's not something you'd bring up in most company.
The political unfeasibility of changing the prison system says alot about the American electorate.
So, yes, prisons and jails do the job that the state mental hospitals used to.
It says "The American electorate is most concerned about the faltering economy."
Which isn't a very long sentence. Anything else is just you moralizing about other people.
No, it says alot more then that. Shit, just look at the reaction to Obama trying to close Gitmo.
Your problem here Regina Fong is that you are ignoring how this situation actually plays out. The electorate doesn't go "The Economy is more important!" when you talk about making US prisons less of a hellhole. They go "OMG, you pansy murderer lover! You want to kill our children by letting rapists out of prison and dropping them off at elementary schools!!".
The american electorate reacts with panic and vitriol at attempts to make the life of prisoners less awful. There are only 2 possible stances in American politics: "Just as tough on crime as we are now!" and "Tougher on crime!"
Not sure, honestly, but I'd guess they'd start with more minor things like mood disorders, addiction issues, and impulse control (which respond better to treatment) and range all the way up to things like schizophrenia, delusional disorders, and schizo-affective disorders, which don't typically respond meaningfully well.
My grandmother's stepson is doing life for murder, and his cellmate is doing life for triple murder and rape. Oddly, I'd have no problem with either of them being put to death, but both are clearly mentally ill.
Rigorous Scholarship
Sorry, I wasn't aware the America's jails were in some sudden decline that has only existed since the start of our economic hardship. I was under that, though over population is a growing problem, our jails have been pretty much garbage since the 80s.
It's kinda hard to believe that during the general prosperity of the 80s and 90s, no significant advancement has been made on the shittynesss of American jails, but somehow the electorate is going to care about prisons once we are out of this recession.
TL;DR: American's don't give a shit about the quality of their corrections facilities, and they will always be able to find more pressing social and economic problems.
Rigorous Scholarship
The NIMBY stuff that happened afterwards, people wanted it closed but they didn't want the people there moved to prisons near them.
It isn't that hard to argue against the status quo when you look at global crime numbers, and see similar decreases in violent crime in all first world nations regardless of how badly the abuse their criminals.
Like I said, our approach to criminal justice and punishment seems to work for the average American. There's no real incentive to fiddle with it at this point.
Rigorous Scholarship
This kinda means the electorate is complicit in the abuses caused by the system and are therefor culpable in the harm it causes. That is sort of the opposite of what Regina Fong was arguing. The shitty conditions of our jails say a lot about America in that case, and it sure isn't 'Oh, we are soooo horribly worried about the economic weather that we can't focus on fixing prisons right now'.
Rigorous Scholarship
Rigorous Scholarship
Which is exactly the point. The american prison system is horrendous but fixing it doesn't make a good sound bite because the electorate really dislikes the idea of being "nice" (read: humane) to prisoners.
The american penal system reflects this.
budget constraints, because every time you try to cut funding from prisons, they say "if you cut our budget, we'll release a bunch of murderers and rapists." So, it's not going to come from there.
Are you suggesting that people will simply stop committing crimes because they're old? Because I think you'll find that recidivism rates aren't going to be going down with the state cutting social services and government jobs (which are some of the only good jobs you can get if you're a convicted criminal). Where is this magical reduction going to come from?
Did you mean without? Because if so, I completely agree. The major american prison reform movement of a century ago was led by social reformers, not politicians. Expecting people who have to run for office and reelection to lead the charge is beyond silly.
That said, its much easier to sit back, adjust your monacle, and pass sweeping judgement on 300 million people than it is to start a grass roots prison reform movement.
If they're under custody of the state or institution in question, yes.
If you're an adult, usually the only way to end up under that kind of custody is to have broken the law. If you're a minor, then your rights are significantly curtailed in comparison - all it can take is a parent sending you off to a home or camp. (Minors sent to shady mental health treatment facilities where their human rights are flagrantly violated is actually a pretty big problem, but is probably off-topic for this thread.)
This is kind of an interesting question for me. If somebody hasn't broken the law, then as far as I'm concerned they should be free to wander the streets and mutter all they want. I kind of agree with Thomas Szasz on that. However, it's pretty easy for a crazy homeless person to end up in the criminal justice fold, just by violating trespassing laws or laws against sleeping in the park. We have, in a lot of municipalities, criminalized being crazy.
Reducing recidivism should be incentive enough.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
On the other hand, the minority population will only increase...
Well, there is that issue.
Rigorous Scholarship
Crime has actually continued its downward trend during the recession, which has surprised a lot of people and fought expectations:
1) the theory you present
2) all the state/local government cut backs lessening the size of police departments
Aside from being a budgetary nightmare, as someone with experience with those state institutions, I'm not wholly against that mindset.
People with advanced mental illness are often timebombs, and aren't subject to rational processes. My clinical study patient was a really nice guy with a masters' degree from Penn State in computer science who murdered his mother one night because his bedpost convinced him God wanted her in heaven.
So it is significantly more complicated an issue than a simple view of "more prosperity equals less crime." That's not really surprising I suppose. I'll have to see if I can find out what the leading theories are regarding the continued decline in crime, because I am quite obviously not an expert on this subject, yet I am curious to know more.
The homeless can have a significant negative effect on public space that drives away other people. It's not surprising that lawmakers will side with familes and other non-homeless people who want to be able to use parks and trails without fear of mentally ill, intoxicated people.
Rigorous Scholarship
Over the last twenty years, and more so in the past decade, our justice system has become hell bent on handing out felonious convictions. Before I was 19, I had only had a single speeding ticket. I had done nothing wrong, and was generally an upstanding citizen. I hadn't even gone through a vandalism and property destruction phase in my teenage years like a lot of the people I knew in high school.
Then I got arrested for drugs. Now, granted, I went full bore and did commit some very large crimes, but we'll not talk about that. We'll focus on the fact that I did commit a felonious crime. I was sent to jail for a bit, and honestly found nothing wrong. Except for a very noticeable hilarity. There was very little in the way of control. A Deputy sat at a desk and read a book while the inmates hung out.
And got high. The amount of drugs available in the dorm was prodigious. Everyone was high about 75% of the time. Everything from pot to meth was available for commissary item trade. Nothing was done to stop this. The few times a person was caught getting high or being high, they were taken out of the dorm and returned the next day with stitches and bandages. Perhaps it was excusable, but I never heard of or saw anyone resist. All these people did was take advantage of the total lack of rules and control. The only fights that happened were between the guards and the inmates, and myself and the night-farts of my bunk mate.
Now, in sentencing, having zero previous record, the local narcotics division "losing" the evidence, and the CI who informed on me refusing to testify...I received 5 years of probation or a 5 year prison sentence. I of course took probation. On probation I have gotten zero rehabilitation, lived in constant fear of the whimsical desires of my PO, and was repeatedly cuffed and stuffed for no cause. Just to threaten me. As soon as I was taken to the jail I was released in the parking lot and told to find my way home. In 5 years, I have paid $50 a month to the state, have seen my PO a total of 10 times, have had 4 home visits and 4 UA's. Recently they raised the monthly fee to $60 in order to help pay for the PO's who have thousands of probationers under them and the state having not enough money to pay them.
The friends I have who are on probation (a shocking 84% of my friends have probation sentences for misdemeanor crimes that got escalated to felony in the plea agreement to avoid jury trials) can't find jobs, have little to no income and if they miss one payment (which I will remind you just got increased) will be violated, and re-sentenced and likely, sent to prison.
TL:DR There is no rehabilitation. There is no sense of order in the system. The justice system burns to create felons out of one time offenders (especially drug crimes). The probation system is just as corrupt with power and just as flawed as the prison system. The disenfranchised are exploited in all forms of "correction".
Perhaps this was a little off topic, but I think it bares saying. Ultimately? I feel victimized by the system. I have been given no chance to rectify other then throwing money I don't have at the city, or else I go to prison.
The legacy of Saint Ronnie lives on.