World War Hulk Thread: Don't Be Fucking Ninnies

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  • BriareosBriareos Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Actually, we went over this a while back. It's an open question whether Hulk has ever killed any innocent people. In the Ultimates universe, yes, but in the 616 Universe, I believe the current canon is "No."

    Briareos on
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  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited February 2007
    Briareos wrote: »
    Actually, we went over this a while back. It's an open question whether Hulk has ever killed any innocent people. In the Ultimates universe, yes, but in the 616 Universe, I believe the current canon is "No."

    I think the answer depends on who you ask. If you ask Dan Slott, the answer's 'no'. If you ask Bendis the answer's 'of course he has, little dogs too'. Bendis sent him off into space, so I would guess that canon leans towards 'yes' at the moment, though I doubt Marvel are going to be making too much of that, mass-murderers being somewhat unpopular and all.

    Bogart on
  • DarkWarriorDarkWarrior __BANNED USERS
    edited February 2007
    Marvel Zombies was the most popular Marvel title of '06. The first issue went through something like eight reprintings. I'd call that mainstream. Not 616 canon, but mainstream.

    That's what I meant. Sorry. It is an alternate Hulk but I'd also guess a weaker hulk considering the state of him. Yet he still bit Surfers head off.

    DarkWarrior on
  • WildcatWildcat Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Oh come now, be fair to the Illuminati. They tossed the Hulk because he's killed (as one of his personalities or another) hundreds of innocent people. If the Sentry had caused hundreds of deaths in one personality or another they'd...wait...

    /Damned Void....
    Well, technically Sentry threw himself into the Sun because of that. :P Plus Reed and Doctor Strange have, at various times, been involved in plans to neutralise him.

    Wildcat on
  • Diablo FettDiablo Fett Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Bogart wrote: »
    Briareos wrote: »
    Actually, we went over this a while back. It's an open question whether Hulk has ever killed any innocent people. In the Ultimates universe, yes, but in the 616 Universe, I believe the current canon is "No."

    I think the answer depends on who you ask. If you ask Dan Slott, the answer's 'no'. If you ask Bendis the answer's 'of course he has, little dogs too'. Bendis sent him off into space, so I would guess that canon leans towards 'yes' at the moment, though I doubt Marvel are going to be making too much of that, mass-murderers being somewhat unpopular and all.

    Slott's explanation is that he's never intentionally killed innocents. Unlike the Ultimate Hulk, who rapes and kills to his heart's content, 616 Hulk tries to avoid killing innocents as much as possible. Sure, as collateral damage there has to be a death here ad there, but Hulk never went out of his way to rip the head off of a civilian.

    This is also why Ultimate Hulk is so hilariously awesome.

    Diablo Fett on
  • DarkWarriorDarkWarrior __BANNED USERS
    edited February 2007
    Is ultimate Hulk not a villain then?

    DarkWarrior on
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited February 2007
    I hope that kid who is the 7th smartest person in the world gets the shit beaten out of him by Reed. Because he may be right, but he's also a huge ass.

    Fencingsax on
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  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited February 2007
    Bogart wrote: »
    Briareos wrote: »
    Actually, we went over this a while back. It's an open question whether Hulk has ever killed any innocent people. In the Ultimates universe, yes, but in the 616 Universe, I believe the current canon is "No."

    I think the answer depends on who you ask. If you ask Dan Slott, the answer's 'no'. If you ask Bendis the answer's 'of course he has, little dogs too'. Bendis sent him off into space, so I would guess that canon leans towards 'yes' at the moment, though I doubt Marvel are going to be making too much of that, mass-murderers being somewhat unpopular and all.

    Slott's explanation is that he's never intentionally killed innocents. Unlike the Ultimate Hulk, who rapes and kills to his heart's content, 616 Hulk tries to avoid killing innocents as much as possible. Sure, as collateral damage there has to be a death here ad there, but Hulk never went out of his way to rip the head off of a civilian.

    This is also why Ultimate Hulk is so hilariously awesome.

    I don't have the She-Hulk issue in front of me, but I seem to recall that Slott said that the Hulk was not responsible for any innocent deaths. I may be mistaken in my recollection of what Jennifer said, but that's a very different thing from saying he didn't intentionally kill innocents.

    Bogart on
  • BriareosBriareos Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    I swear we discussed this question in the previous "Ask Whippy" thread (or maybe at the beginning of this thread), and someone quoted some Marvel person (maybe Slott) as having said that if Banner ever realized that Hulk had taken innocent lives during a rampage (even accidentally), Banner would commit suicide. Thus, no innocents killed in any 616 Hulk rampage EVER. I know it sounds like bullshit, but I don't write the stories.

    Briareos on
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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Briareos wrote: »
    I swear we discussed this question in the previous "Ask Whippy" thread (or maybe at the beginning of this thread), and someone quoted some Marvel person (maybe Slott) as having said that if Banner ever realized that Hulk had taken innocent lives during a rampage (even accidentally), Banner would commit suicide. Thus, no innocents killed in any 616 Hulk rampage EVER. I know it sounds like bullshit, but I don't write the stories.

    Banner wants to die, but Hulk won't let him. At least, that's what Prof X said Banner thinks.

    Fencingsax on
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  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Briareos wrote: »
    Actually, we went over this a while back. It's an open question whether Hulk has ever killed any innocent people. In the Ultimates universe, yes, but in the 616 Universe, I believe the current canon is "No."

    Ultimate Universe it's a clear Yes...they give numbers.

    In 616, the current controlling canon is the Illuminati and pre-Planet Hulk issues that clearly stated it.

    This is part of the new status quo for 616: deaths happen. Read today's CW: Front Line (which is excellent, by the way) for a discussion of this. It's a ret-con, but it's real in the same way that it's real in 616.

    mattharvest on
  • CyberJackalCyberJackal Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Briareos wrote: »
    I swear we discussed this question in the previous "Ask Whippy" thread (or maybe at the beginning of this thread), and someone quoted some Marvel person (maybe Slott) as having said that if Banner ever realized that Hulk had taken innocent lives during a rampage (even accidentally), Banner would commit suicide. Thus, no innocents killed in any 616 Hulk rampage EVER. I know it sounds like bullshit, but I don't write the stories.

    Is this one of those "noone is truly innocent" sort of situations?

    CyberJackal on
  • BriareosBriareos Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Briareos wrote: »
    I swear we discussed this question in the previous "Ask Whippy" thread (or maybe at the beginning of this thread), and someone quoted some Marvel person (maybe Slott) as having said that if Banner ever realized that Hulk had taken innocent lives during a rampage (even accidentally), Banner would commit suicide. Thus, no innocents killed in any 616 Hulk rampage EVER. I know it sounds like bullshit, but I don't write the stories.

    Is this one of those "noone is truly innocent" sort of situations?

    I don't know. I was one of those people saying, "Well come on, he must have killed someone..." But then I was corrected by others quoting this Marvel guy. Sounds to me like mattharvest knows what's going on.

    Briareos on
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  • Bloods EndBloods End Blade of Tyshalle Punch dimensionRegistered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    I hope that kid who is the 7th smartest person in the world gets the shit beaten out of him by Reed. Because he may be right, but he's also a huge ass.

    He's less of an ass then Reed has been lately.

    Bloods End on
  • Golden YakGolden Yak Burnished Bovine The PIT, level 26Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Bloods End wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    I hope that kid who is the 7th smartest person in the world gets the shit beaten out of him by Reed. Because he may be right, but he's also a huge ass.

    He's less of an ass then Reed has been lately.

    Yes. That guy is pretty awesome. And he's got a little doggy too. I'm kinda thinking he'll be a casualty of WWH though.

    Golden Yak on
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  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Briareos wrote: »
    Briareos wrote: »
    I swear we discussed this question in the previous "Ask Whippy" thread (or maybe at the beginning of this thread), and someone quoted some Marvel person (maybe Slott) as having said that if Banner ever realized that Hulk had taken innocent lives during a rampage (even accidentally), Banner would commit suicide. Thus, no innocents killed in any 616 Hulk rampage EVER. I know it sounds like bullshit, but I don't write the stories.

    Is this one of those "noone is truly innocent" sort of situations?

    I don't know. I was one of those people saying, "Well come on, he must have killed someone..." But then I was corrected by others quoting this Marvel guy. Sounds to me like mattharvest knows what's going on.

    There was an older storyline that, in-canon, Hulk hadn't ever killed someone. I'm not sure if it ever was stated explicitly, but there certainly were interviews w/ writers where they made this a 'defining' aspect of 616 Hulk.

    However, regardless of all that being past-canon it isn't present-canon: the pre-Planet Hulk exile of Hulk made it quite explicit that the current 616 canon is that Hulk has recklessly and/or intentionally killed people. Moreover, this implies that Banner has done so negligently (by not committing suicide).

    However, this assumes Banner can commit suicide. Hulk may instantly overwhelm Banner on any such attempt.

    (thanks for the credit though)

    mattharvest on
  • DasUberEdwardDasUberEdward Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Marvel Zombies was the most popular Marvel title of '06. The first issue went through something like eight reprintings. I'd call that mainstream. Not 616 canon, but mainstream.

    That's what I meant. Sorry. It is an alternate Hulk but I'd also guess a weaker hulk considering the state of him. Yet he still bit Surfers head off.

    Yeah but Zombies is a fun one shot. I feel quite certain that they will put out some cosmic deux ex machina and fight the hulk to a standstill. I hope i'm wrong but with the gems in the mix there seems to be few conclusions.

    DasUberEdward on
  • Calamity JaneCalamity Jane That Wrong Love Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Marvel Zombies was the most popular Marvel title of '06. The first issue went through something like eight reprintings. I'd call that mainstream. Not 616 canon, but mainstream.

    That's what I meant. Sorry. It is an alternate Hulk but I'd also guess a weaker hulk considering the state of him. Yet he still bit Surfers head off.

    Yeah but Zombies is a fun one shot. I feel quite certain that they will put out some cosmic deux ex machina and fight the hulk to a standstill. I hope i'm wrong but with the gems in the mix there seems to be few conclusions.

    Hrmm...I speculates me some Nova.

    Calamity Jane on
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  • WhippyWhippy Moderator, Admin Emeritus Admin Emeritus
    edited March 2007
    Banner has tried to kill himself before. When the trigger was pulled he blacked out and woke up a week later with half the western seaboard destroyed.

    Whippy on
  • GoodCitizenGoodCitizen Registered User
    edited March 2007
    There was an older storyline that, in-canon, Hulk hadn't ever killed someone. I'm not sure if it ever was stated explicitly, but there certainly were interviews w/ writers where they made this a 'defining' aspect of 616 Hulk.

    I think Hulk first killed someone a ways back when he was being mind controlled by some guy. I remember Banner screaming something about 'Hulk never murdered anyone before!' when it happened.

    GoodCitizen on
    Benjamin Franklin used foil covered window glass to create a capacitor. He then attempted to kill a turkey with the stored charge. Instead, he knocked himself out. Franklin later wrote, "I tried to kill a turkey but nearly succeeded in killing a goose."
  • Spectre-xSpectre-x Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Nogs wrote: »
    they should totally have hulk become like an angry 3 year old again when he returns to earth. And then explain that its been Sentry's "aura" that has made him like that the whole time. Thats why he is nice around him and still like a 3 year old - but as he goes farther away from Golden Man he gets angry. So the only logical conclusion is to shoot Sentry off into a wormhole like they did Hulk.

    This allows for the sentry to no longer be around, AND gives us smart awesome badass hulk on Earth.

    its almost too perfect

    Except that would go against both characters' histories.

    Hulk was mellow around Sentry because Sentry's aura blocked the constant pain Hulk experienced from his gamma-irradiated skin or some such.

    And the Sentry is actually pretty cool.

    Spectre-x on
  • Caveman PawsCaveman Paws Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    I'm sure "back in the day" when poloticians never lied, police never accepted bribes and all was right with the world, the Hulk never killed an innocent person (apparently people knew how to evacuate an area within seconds without any warning back then, a lost art to be sure).

    Of course in the modern era the standards for what is good and decent have slipped and so now we can expose children to more and more sex,violence and apparently Hulk killing people by the bunches with his city flattening fits of anger.

    Personally I'm all for slightly more "gritty" tales of some of our favorite characters. How do we know that some bank robbers aren't deathly alergic to Spider-Man's webbing? Or that having a dense metal shield flung at the back of your skull will not just "knock you out" but also "snap your fucking neck."

    And don't get me started about the fatalities that all the Double E breasts cause!

    Caveman Paws on
  • GoodCitizenGoodCitizen Registered User
    edited March 2007
    And don't get me started about the fatalities that all the Double E breasts cause!

    I bet chiropractors in the MU make some serious cash!

    GoodCitizen on
    Benjamin Franklin used foil covered window glass to create a capacitor. He then attempted to kill a turkey with the stored charge. Instead, he knocked himself out. Franklin later wrote, "I tried to kill a turkey but nearly succeeded in killing a goose."
  • Spectre-xSpectre-x Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Actually, I think the reason for Hulk never killing anyone was the fact that he didn't actually try to kill anyone, just scare them off so he could be alone and wouldn't be bothered anymore.

    Spectre-x on
  • Caveman PawsCaveman Paws Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    I'm sure when you throw your enemy through two or three office buildings during buisness hours you don't "intend" to kill anyone.

    But that doesn't keep all those people from dying.

    Caveman Paws on
  • Spectre-xSpectre-x Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Yes it does.

    Spectre-x on
  • ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    No it doesn't

    yay internet debate

    Scooter on
  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Spectre-x wrote: »
    Actually, I think the reason for Hulk never killing anyone was the fact that he didn't actually try to kill anyone, just scare them off so he could be alone and wouldn't be bothered anymore.

    However little Hulk intended to kill innocent bystanders or soldiers, the fact remains that given the swaths of destruction he's caused it's utterly implausible that he hasn't had some people die as collateral damage.

    From a storytelling technique, I just find it equally implausible that Hulk - in his rage-based forms, as opposed to his intelligent forms - would instinctively alter his actions to avoid hurting innocents. At the end of the day, if he was able to plan his actions enough to avoid hurting innocents he wouldn't have been so dangerous.

    I like this depiction of him, although I loathe that the Hulk is apparently infinitely strong as I find this just stupid.

    mattharvest on
  • ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    I like this depiction of him, although I loathe that the Hulk is apparently infinitely strong as I find this just stupid.



    I think he literally is supposed to be the strongest there is, in all of comics. Others like Superman might start off higher, but as he gets angrier there's basically no limit to how high he can go (which isn't to say guys like Superman might not still be able to beat him due to having more varied powers than just muscles).

    Scooter on
  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Scooter wrote: »
    I like this depiction of him, although I loathe that the Hulk is apparently infinitely strong as I find this just stupid.



    I think he literally is supposed to be the strongest there is, in all of comics. Others like Superman might start off higher, but as he gets angrier there's basically no limit to how high he can go (which isn't to say guys like Superman might not still be able to beat him due to having more varied powers than just muscles).

    I just don't see why this is interesting. He becomes the same as Sentry, where the only way he can lose is through some literary deus ex machina. There are a billion ways to destroy him with mildly creative use of the heroes' powers, but since no one wants to destroy him they never bother.

    Hell, why didn't Reed et al. just throw him into one of the million universes in the multiverse instead of aiming him at a planet? Why did they send him in an unguided ship so he could get diverted into a wormhole?

    When Hulk is written as so powerful, it's just not interesting.

    mattharvest on
  • projectmayhemprojectmayhem Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Finish VOL2 of the HC yesterday. I didn't notice at the time, but I was ejaculating like crazy.

    projectmayhem on
  • The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Spectre-x wrote: »
    Actually, I think the reason for Hulk never killing anyone was the fact that he didn't actually try to kill anyone, just scare them off so he could be alone and wouldn't be bothered anymore.

    However little Hulk intended to kill innocent bystanders or soldiers, the fact remains that given the swaths of destruction he's caused it's utterly implausible that he hasn't had some people die as collateral damage.

    From a storytelling technique, I just find it equally implausible that Hulk - in his rage-based forms, as opposed to his intelligent forms - would instinctively alter his actions to avoid hurting innocents. At the end of the day, if he was able to plan his actions enough to avoid hurting innocents he wouldn't have been so dangerous.

    I like this depiction of him, although I loathe that the Hulk is apparently infinitely strong as I find this just stupid.

    Think of the angriest you've ever been. The maddest. The most insanely blind with rage. When you wanted to do nothing more than break open the person who pissed you off.

    Now, imagine seeing a puppy. Are you going to punt it? Or shoo it aside so it doesn't get hurt?

    The Muffin Man on
  • Bloods EndBloods End Blade of Tyshalle Punch dimensionRegistered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Spectre-x wrote: »
    Actually, I think the reason for Hulk never killing anyone was the fact that he didn't actually try to kill anyone, just scare them off so he could be alone and wouldn't be bothered anymore.

    However little Hulk intended to kill innocent bystanders or soldiers, the fact remains that given the swaths of destruction he's caused it's utterly implausible that he hasn't had some people die as collateral damage.

    From a storytelling technique, I just find it equally implausible that Hulk - in his rage-based forms, as opposed to his intelligent forms - would instinctively alter his actions to avoid hurting innocents. At the end of the day, if he was able to plan his actions enough to avoid hurting innocents he wouldn't have been so dangerous.

    I like this depiction of him, although I loathe that the Hulk is apparently infinitely strong as I find this just stupid.

    Think of the angriest you've ever been. The maddest. The most insanely blind with rage. When you wanted to do nothing more than break open the person who pissed you off.

    Now, imagine seeing a puppy. Are you going to punt it? Or shoo it aside so it doesn't get hurt?

    The second.

    Bloods End on
  • The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Bloods End wrote: »
    Spectre-x wrote: »
    Actually, I think the reason for Hulk never killing anyone was the fact that he didn't actually try to kill anyone, just scare them off so he could be alone and wouldn't be bothered anymore.

    However little Hulk intended to kill innocent bystanders or soldiers, the fact remains that given the swaths of destruction he's caused it's utterly implausible that he hasn't had some people die as collateral damage.

    From a storytelling technique, I just find it equally implausible that Hulk - in his rage-based forms, as opposed to his intelligent forms - would instinctively alter his actions to avoid hurting innocents. At the end of the day, if he was able to plan his actions enough to avoid hurting innocents he wouldn't have been so dangerous.

    I like this depiction of him, although I loathe that the Hulk is apparently infinitely strong as I find this just stupid.

    Think of the angriest you've ever been. The maddest. The most insanely blind with rage. When you wanted to do nothing more than break open the person who pissed you off.

    Now, imagine seeing a puppy. Are you going to punt it? Or shoo it aside so it doesn't get hurt?

    The second.

    Imagine innocents are like puppies.

    Hulk doesn't wanna hurt us because, as pissed off as he is, he has no reason to hate us.

    Ultimate Hulk, however, would rape you and eat the puppy.
    Or vice versa.

    The Muffin Man on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Newsarama posted the World War Hulk trailer. It gets pretty cool towards the end, wherein Hulk is getting his Illuminati smash on. :^:

    wwtMask on
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  • SASA Registered User
    edited March 2007
    Holy fuck

    Romita Jr is illustrating this? YES

    I am super excited now!

    SA on
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  • Cosmic SombreroCosmic Sombrero Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Was that Captain America's shield near the end?

    Cosmic Sombrero on
  • HarrierHarrier Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Scooter wrote: »
    I like this depiction of him, although I loathe that the Hulk is apparently infinitely strong as I find this just stupid.



    I think he literally is supposed to be the strongest there is, in all of comics. Others like Superman might start off higher, but as he gets angrier there's basically no limit to how high he can go (which isn't to say guys like Superman might not still be able to beat him due to having more varied powers than just muscles).

    I just don't see why this is interesting. He becomes the same as Sentry, where the only way he can lose is through some literary deus ex machina. There are a billion ways to destroy him with mildly creative use of the heroes' powers, but since no one wants to destroy him they never bother.

    Hell, why didn't Reed et al. just throw him into one of the million universes in the multiverse instead of aiming him at a planet? Why did they send him in an unguided ship so he could get diverted into a wormhole?

    When Hulk is written as so powerful, it's just not interesting.
    Sentry is boring because he's just got all that power sitting in him.

    The fact that the Hulk's strength is related to his anger makes him compelling as a symbol of humanity's more primitive, savage impulses, of which rage springs most vividly to mind. Hurt us, insult us, take away what we value, reduce us to our lowest levels, and out pours blinding, animal anger, an inhuman urge to hurt and ruin everything we can touch because the pain in our heads is too much to contain.

    The Hulk is about the base instincts of man. What are we at our cores? During those times when we feel inexpressibly, hopelessly enraged, we are on the inside what the Hulk is on the outside.

    When I get that mad, and it's only very very rarely, it honestly seems like if I could vent my anger it would cause destruction on a global scale. Since our anger seems immeasurably strong to us, the Hulk, fueled by anger, should be immeasurably strong as well.

    Harrier on
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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited March 2007
    It just occurred to me that the Initiative is going to fail utterly at containing this. It better not return us to before CW.

    Fencingsax on
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  • ArcibiArcibi Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Hulk is one of my favorite characters in comics (in fact the very first books I ever had were Hulk books) and I can hardly wait for this

    It's going to be so rad

    Arcibi on
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