Wait, did this Peter Dutro person really stay in that fancy hotel?
it's Fox News.
Expect the whole thing to be a lie until it's shown to be otherwise.
Pretty much, they have proven themselves multiple times in the past to be untrustworthy on a multitude of topics. I don't even understand how they are allowed to still be on the air at this point, much less practically running the show.
They are about as newsworthy a source as The North Korean Central News Agency at this point.
Oh come on now. Sure they're very frequently wrong on a national level, probably intentionally so, but local fox affiliates still have some credibility when reporting on local interest stories, and I'm pretty sure the meteorologists aren't biasing their reports one way or another.
god, worst totp ever. Just so we're clear, I think that fox is often intentionally misleading, however it isn't a constant stream of misinformation issued in cooperation with the national government. So.. it's bad, but it isn't glorious leader bad.
seabass on
Run you pigeons, it's Robert Frost!
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VanguardBut now the dream is over. And the insect is awake.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
edited November 2011
The weather is a socialist cell controlled by the left.
They are planning to poison our water supply little by little each time it rains.
The clouds are actually stealth jets that spy on citizens who exercise their second amendment rights.
Lightning is a flare that goes off every time the left successful aborts a god-fearing embryo.
Uh, nope, how about I don't 'come on' now. Fox News is collection of bullshitting fraudsters. If they get anything right, it's due to the law of averages. Chief among their 'sources' is a Palestinian Jew who's been dead for a few thousand years, and an invisible deity that lives in the sky.
I think that fox is often intentionally misleading, however it isn't a constant stream of misinformation issued in cooperation with the national government. So.. it's bad, but it isn't glorious leader bad.
No, it's a constant stream of misinformation coming from whoever pays for it. And don't give me this bullshit about the weather reports, as if that somehow excuses the miserable heap of lies, edited transcripts, etc.
Wait, did this Peter Dutro person really stay in that fancy hotel?
it's Fox News.
Expect the whole thing to be a lie until it's shown to be otherwise.
Pretty much, they have proven themselves multiple times in the past to be untrustworthy on a multitude of topics. I don't even understand how they are allowed to still be on the air at this point, much less practically running the show.
They are about as newsworthy a source as The North Korean Central News Agency at this point.
Oh come on now. Sure they're very frequently wrong on a national level, probably intentionally so, but local fox affiliates still have some credibility when reporting on local interest stories, and I'm pretty sure the meteorologists aren't biasing their reports one way or another.
god, worst totp ever. Just so we're clear, I think that fox is often intentionally misleading, however it isn't a constant stream of misinformation issued in cooperation with the national government. So.. it's bad, but it isn't glorious leader bad.
You're contradicting yourself here
It is glorious leader bad, The organisation has been caught red handed illegal wire tapping and suborning police officers in the UK and indulging in hacking in order to bury a US competitor.
Bastable on
Philippe about the tactical deployment of german Kradschützen during the battle of Kursk:
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
Wait, did this Peter Dutro person really stay in that fancy hotel?
it's Fox News.
Expect the whole thing to be a lie until it's shown to be otherwise.
Pretty much, they have proven themselves multiple times in the past to be untrustworthy on a multitude of topics. I don't even understand how they are allowed to still be on the air at this point, much less practically running the show.
They are about as newsworthy a source as The North Korean Central News Agency at this point.
Oh come on now. Sure they're very frequently wrong on a national level, probably intentionally so, but local fox affiliates still have some credibility when reporting on local interest stories, and I'm pretty sure the meteorologists aren't biasing their reports one way or another.
god, worst totp ever. Just so we're clear, I think that fox is often intentionally misleading, however it isn't a constant stream of misinformation issued in cooperation with the national government. So.. it's bad, but it isn't glorious leader bad.
You're contradicting yourself here
It is glorious leader bad, The organisation has been caught red handed illegal wire tapping and suborning police officers in the UK and indulging in hacking in order to bury a US competitor.
You missed the part where I said "constant stream of misinformation issued in cooperation with the national government". That whole being in cahoots with the government would make an admittedly bad situation measurably worse. I don't disagree with the idea that news corps frequently misrepresents facts in an effort to promote a particular point of view, but it doesn't do so with explicit government backing and that makes a world of difference.
No, it's a constant stream of misinformation coming from whoever pays for it. And don't give me this bullshit about the weather reports, as if that somehow excuses the miserable heap of lies, edited transcripts, etc.
There is very, very little difference between Fox News and the worst propaganda arms ever seen in a totalitarian state.
The weather thing was meant to be tongue in cheek. It's sort of hard to report on snowfall with too much bias, other than lolClimate science.
You also point out exactly the difference between the worst propoganda arms and fox right there. They aren't on the government dole.
You missed the part where I said "constant stream of misinformation issued in cooperation with the national government". That whole being in cahoots with the government would make an admittedly bad situation measurably worse. I don't disagree with the idea that news corps frequently misrepresents facts in an effort to promote a particular point of view, but it doesn't do so with explicit government backing and that makes a world of difference.
Do you remember that time that the Republicans had a sitting President, back in 2001, and then they used Fox News to spread a constant stream of misinformation about a connection between Al Qaeda and Iraq? And about yellow-cake uranium that had recently come into Iraq's possession?
Wait, did this Peter Dutro person really stay in that fancy hotel?
it's Fox News.
Expect the whole thing to be a lie until it's shown to be otherwise.
Pretty much, they have proven themselves multiple times in the past to be untrustworthy on a multitude of topics. I don't even understand how they are allowed to still be on the air at this point, much less practically running the show.
They are about as newsworthy a source as The North Korean Central News Agency at this point.
Oh come on now. Sure they're very frequently wrong on a national level, probably intentionally so, but local fox affiliates still have some credibility when reporting on local interest stories, and I'm pretty sure the meteorologists aren't biasing their reports one way or another.
god, worst totp ever. Just so we're clear, I think that fox is often intentionally misleading, however it isn't a constant stream of misinformation issued in cooperation with the national government. So.. it's bad, but it isn't glorious leader bad.
You're contradicting yourself here
It is glorious leader bad, The organisation has been caught red handed illegal wire tapping and suborning police officers in the UK and indulging in hacking in order to bury a US competitor.
You missed the part where I said "constant stream of misinformation issued in cooperation with the national government". That whole being in cahoots with the government would make an admittedly bad situation measurably worse. I don't disagree with the idea that news corps frequently misrepresents facts in an effort to promote a particular point of view, but it doesn't do so with explicit government backing and that makes a world of difference.
Are you kidding me . . .
They are about as newsworthy a source as The North Korean Central News Agency at this point.
Is made due to the level of lying that Fox indulges in as their modus operandi.
Note how different it is to your goalpost shifting redefinition. it doesn't do so with explicit government backing
Fox news is as bad as a dear leader organisation. Ignoring the number of republican party partisans, Karl Rove and the Republican media consultant Roger Ailes as the president of the company.
Bastable on
Philippe about the tactical deployment of german Kradschützen during the battle of Kursk:
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
The government doesn't define fox narrative, but Newscorp does.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
From your pdf pepper-spray is “just above hands-on pain compliance and immediately below the use of impact weapons”. Of course this particular document relegates it's use for "dangerous or violently resisting suspect", while others place it firmly in the realm of compliance (often in the course of arresting someone to minimize physicality in an arrest).
The use of pepper-spray here is unfortunate, however based on your own chart - the "Empty Hand Control" option was the next step BEFORE use of pepper-spray, so yes, I guess you're right - joint locks, or kicks and punches should've proceeded this.
If someone broke into my home and started watching TV, and so I called the police, and the police automatically walked-in on a bunch of teenage trespassers just watching TV and maced them instead of just arresting them, I'd be pretty fucking enraged with the cops. Yeah, I'd be out-of-my-mind upset with the people who violated my privacy and took over my living room, but immediately escalating to lethal force is well below the standards I demand of police forces.
Why would you call the police at all? Sure they've broken into your home, but did so without actually breaking anything, and are just - sitting there. Clearly tresspassing and breaking the law but beyond that doing nothing else. We can create any number of scenarios to make this a peaceful home invader so that the burden of action (and the legality of such action) is placed on you the homeowner, just as has been done in this thread.
Why would you call the police at all? Sure they've broken into your home, but did so without actually breaking anything, and are just - sitting there. Clearly tresspassing and breaking the law but beyond that doing nothing else. We can create any number of scenarios to make this a peaceful home invader so that the burden of action (and the legality of such action) is placed on you the homeowner, just as has been done in this thread.
Uh, because people have violated my privacy and taken over my living room, that's why I'd call the police. I have a right to privacy, and the trespassers have violated my rights and refuse to leave. Since I'm not interested in a confrontation and can't deal with the situation myself, I contact the state's law enforcement arm to come and moderate the situation.
You might note that breaking into a private person's home is hugely different to blocking part of a sidewalk on a university campus, too, but whatever.
Right they've broken the law, or refused an order to move off private property. So yes, students blocking a "public" walkway (it is still UC property) are breaking the law if told from campus authorities they needed to leave. There is a time and place to argue the rightness of a command; if you choose that time to be when facing an officer - well bad shit generally happens.
"Get the hell out of me" - [ex]girlfriend
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Just_Bri_ThanksSeething with ragefrom a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPAregular
And yet, as has been stated over and over again, merely breaking the law is insufficient provocation for the use of weapons of any kind against the law breakers.
...and when you are done with that; take a folding
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
Note how different it is to your goalpost shifting redefinition. it doesn't do so with explicit government backing
Fox news is as bad as a dear leader organisation. Ignoring the number of republican party partisans, Karl Rove and the Republican media consultant Roger Ailes as the president of the company.
I don't think I moved the goal posts, but maybe I don't understand what you're getting at with that. That was the phrase I was using all along.
I'm just saying that a news organization systematically lying to us is very bad, but the government coordinating the lie with a news organization is much worse. I don't know that anyone disagrees that the first is happening, but I would like to think that if we had concrete evidence of the second that many people would be on trial or going to jail shortly.
Do you remember that time that the Republicans had a sitting President, back in 2001, and then they used Fox News to spread a constant stream of misinformation about a connection between Al Qaeda and Iraq? And about yellow-cake uranium that had recently come into Iraq's possession?
Honestly I don't remember how that played out anymore. I seem to recall that the president and some cabinet members claimed as much on record, and that fox repeated it a lot. I don't remember how the other stations handled it at all, nor do I remember how everyone handled the revelation that the information wasn't correct.
Right they've broken the law, or refused an order to move off private property. So yes, students blocking a "public" walkway (it is still UC property) are breaking the law if told from campus authorities they needed to leave. There is a time and place to argue the rightness of a command; if you choose that time to be when facing an officer - well bad shit generally happens.
The police officer spraying the completely passive kids with pepper spray was breaking the law. What's being done about that?
Do you remember that time that the Republicans had a sitting President, back in 2001, and then they used Fox News to spread a constant stream of misinformation about a connection between Al Qaeda and Iraq? And about yellow-cake uranium that had recently come into Iraq's possession?
Honestly I don't remember how that played out anymore. I seem to recall that the president and some cabinet members claimed as much on record, and that fox repeated it a lot. I don't remember how the other stations handled it at all, nor do I remember how everyone handled the revelation that the information wasn't correct.
Perhaps you should learn the facts before you comitt yourself to a point of view?
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
Right they've broken the law, or refused an order to move off private property.
Well, in the case of your hypothetical, they've done both.
So yes, students blocking a "public" walkway (it is still UC property)
UC Davis is a public university. It's not a privately owned space, and in any case, it's certainly not the private home of the school chancellor.
There is a time and place to argue the rightness of a command; if you choose that time to be when facing an officer - well bad shit generally happens.
-.-
I'm just going to assume that a misogynist with some sort of Neo-Fascist outlook isn't in this thread for an honest debate, so I think I'll leave this tangent of conversation here.
Right they've broken the law, or refused an order to move off private property. So yes, students blocking a "public" walkway (it is still UC property) are breaking the law if told from campus authorities they needed to leave. There is a time and place to argue the rightness of a command; if you choose that time to be when facing an officer - well bad shit generally happens.
And if the pepper spray didn't work, obviously the police should have just shot them.
ENFORCING THE LAW IS NOT A SUFFICIENT JUSTIFICATION TO VIOLATE THE LAW. Christ.
hippofant on
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VanguardBut now the dream is over. And the insect is awake.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
I'm sick of talking about this. Just ignore him.
You remember that small group who left NYC to march to DC?
And yet, as has been stated over and over again, merely breaking the law is insufficient provocation for the use of weapons of any kind against the law breakers.
This is a seperate tangent to the use of pepper-spray on those students. If you're going to snark, at least snark at the appropriate time.
UC Davis is a public university. It's not a privately owned space, and in any case, it's certainly not the private home of the school chancellor.
UCD is public property insofar as a city park is public property. There are still rules governing its use.
I'm just going to assume that a misogynist with some sort of Neo-Fascist outlook isn't in this thread for an honest debate, so I think I'll leave this tangent of conversation here.
Well of course I am a misogynist (how did gender get involved here?) Neo-Fascist for recognizing that civil disobedience has it's consequences.
And if the pepper spray didn't work, obviously the police should have just shot them.
ENFORCING THE LAW IS NOT A SUFFICIENT JUSTIFICATION TO VIOLATE THE LAW. Christ.
So now the cops broke the law using pepper-spray? That's a whole different sort than simply recognizing that the use of pepper-spray was improper.
Well of course I am a misogynist (how did gender get involved here?) Neo-Fascist for recognizing that civil disobedience has it's consequences.
No, you're a misogynist for having a disgraceful sex-shaming remark in your sig, and a Neo-Fascist for deciding to be an apologetic for the casual use of lethal force.
Note how different it is to your goalpost shifting redefinition. it doesn't do so with explicit government backing
Fox news is as bad as a dear leader organisation. Ignoring the number of republican party partisans, Karl Rove and the Republican media consultant Roger Ailes as the president of the company.
I don't think I moved the goal posts, but maybe I don't understand what you're getting at with that. That was the phrase I was using all along.
I'm just saying that a news organization systematically lying to us is very bad, but the government coordinating the lie with a news organization is much worse. I don't know that anyone disagrees that the first is happening, but I would like to think that if we had concrete evidence of the second that many people would be on trial or going to jail shortly.
Do you remember that time that the Republicans had a sitting President, back in 2001, and then they used Fox News to spread a constant stream of misinformation about a connection between Al Qaeda and Iraq? And about yellow-cake uranium that had recently come into Iraq's possession?
Honestly I don't remember how that played out anymore. I seem to recall that the president and some cabinet members claimed as much on record, and that fox repeated it a lot. I don't remember how the other stations handled it at all, nor do I remember how everyone handled the revelation that the information wasn't correct.
No you're being factious, Ender stated Fox news is about as trustworthy as a dear leader news organisation. You then leap to it's defence by stating yes fox news lies but isn't a constant stream of misinformation issued in cooperation with the national government. While all the time agreeing frequently wrong on a national level, probably intentionally so,
So yeah it is about as trustworthy as a dear leader organisation due to it's lying. Your pathetic defence to Ender stating Fox news is like a dear leader organisation is that it is not a actual North Korean dear leader organisation.
Your intellectual dishonesty is even more clear with the "I don't recollect" when Fox news was lying on behalf of the government concerning iraq and the yellow cake story.
Bastable on
Philippe about the tactical deployment of german Kradschützen during the battle of Kursk:
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
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VanguardBut now the dream is over. And the insect is awake.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
Hahaha, oh man. This will be good. The drumming group from OWS has planned a 24-hour jam session in front of Bloomberg's townhouse on East 79th Street.
So now the cops broke the law using pepper-spray? That's a whole different sort than simply recognizing that the use of pepper-spray was improper.
If anyone else maced someone for no reason without any provocation, they would be arrested and charged with assault. Why would it not be a crime when a cop does it?
And if the pepper spray didn't work, obviously the police should have just shot them.
ENFORCING THE LAW IS NOT A SUFFICIENT JUSTIFICATION TO VIOLATE THE LAW. Christ.
So now the cops broke the law using pepper-spray? That's a whole different sort than simply recognizing that the use of pepper-spray was improper.
It's called excessive use of force and is assault, you goose. Look up the damn peace officer laws before you open your mouth any more. Both practically and legally, what the police did UCDavis was wrong; they'll likely never be held legally accountable, but they've sure fucked things up practically now.
Hahaha, oh man. This will be good. The drumming group from OWS has planned a 24-hour jam session in front of Bloomberg's townhouse on East 79th Street.
Okay, woah, don't do that, please, drummer folk. I don't see the need to start harassing people at their homes with loud drum music. That's crossing a line that I don't think should be crossed.
Note how different it is to your goalpost shifting redefinition. it doesn't do so with explicit government backing
Fox news is as bad as a dear leader organisation. Ignoring the number of republican party partisans, Karl Rove and the Republican media consultant Roger Ailes as the president of the company.
I don't think I moved the goal posts, but maybe I don't understand what you're getting at with that. That was the phrase I was using all along.
I'm just saying that a news organization systematically lying to us is very bad, but the government coordinating the lie with a news organization is much worse. I don't know that anyone disagrees that the first is happening, but I would like to think that if we had concrete evidence of the second that many people would be on trial or going to jail shortly.
Do you remember that time that the Republicans had a sitting President, back in 2001, and then they used Fox News to spread a constant stream of misinformation about a connection between Al Qaeda and Iraq? And about yellow-cake uranium that had recently come into Iraq's possession?
Honestly I don't remember how that played out anymore. I seem to recall that the president and some cabinet members claimed as much on record, and that fox repeated it a lot. I don't remember how the other stations handled it at all, nor do I remember how everyone handled the revelation that the information wasn't correct.
No you're being factious, Ender stated Fox news is about as trustworthy as a dear leader news organisation. You then leap to it's defence by stating yes fox news lies but isn't a constant stream of misinformation issued in cooperation with the national government.[i/] While all the time agreeing frequently wrong on a national level, probably intentionally so,[i/] and robably intentionally so,[i/]
So yeah it is about as trustworthy as a dear leader organisation due to it's lying. Your pathetic defence to Ender stating Fox news is like a dear leader organisation is that it is not a actual North Korean dear leader organisation.
Your intellectual dishonesty is even more clear with the "I don't recollect" when Fox news was lying on behalf of the government concerning iraq and the yellow cake story.
I can't admit to not knowing the details of something that happened nearly a decade ago without being intellectually dishonest? That seems unreasonable.
Note how different it is to your goalpost shifting redefinition. it doesn't do so with explicit government backing
Fox news is as bad as a dear leader organisation. Ignoring the number of republican party partisans, Karl Rove and the Republican media consultant Roger Ailes as the president of the company.
I don't think I moved the goal posts, but maybe I don't understand what you're getting at with that. That was the phrase I was using all along.
I'm just saying that a news organization systematically lying to us is very bad, but the government coordinating the lie with a news organization is much worse. I don't know that anyone disagrees that the first is happening, but I would like to think that if we had concrete evidence of the second that many people would be on trial or going to jail shortly.
Do you remember that time that the Republicans had a sitting President, back in 2001, and then they used Fox News to spread a constant stream of misinformation about a connection between Al Qaeda and Iraq? And about yellow-cake uranium that had recently come into Iraq's possession?
Honestly I don't remember how that played out anymore. I seem to recall that the president and some cabinet members claimed as much on record, and that fox repeated it a lot. I don't remember how the other stations handled it at all, nor do I remember how everyone handled the revelation that the information wasn't correct.
No you're being factious, Ender stated Fox news is about as trustworthy as a dear leader news organisation. You then leap to it's defence by stating yes fox news lies but isn't a constant stream of misinformation issued in cooperation with the national government.[i/] While all the time agreeing frequently wrong on a national level, probably intentionally so,[i/] and robably intentionally so,[i/]
So yeah it is about as trustworthy as a dear leader organisation due to it's lying. Your pathetic defence to Ender stating Fox news is like a dear leader organisation is that it is not a actual North Korean dear leader organisation.
Your intellectual dishonesty is even more clear with the "I don't recollect" when Fox news was lying on behalf of the government concerning iraq and the yellow cake story.
I can't admit to not knowing the details of something that happened nearly a decade ago without being intellectually dishonest? That seems unreasonable.
Pathetic.
Philippe about the tactical deployment of german Kradschützen during the battle of Kursk:
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
No, you're a misogynist for having a disgraceful sex-shaming remark in your sig.
Ahh. Well then I was correct to dismiss your comment. Carry on.
Why would it not be a crime when a cop does it?
Because one is a cop. You may not like that as an answer, and it is not an answer that excuses or grants one the ability to use such tactics whenever/wherever - but that is the reality of it. THAT is the difference.
It's called excessive use of force and is assault. . .
Your comment seemed as if it was spoken in generalities. As such MY comment was made in the general sense. And even so, such a distinction isn't yours to make. That's up to whomever this review board is going to be composed of to determine whether the pepper-spray was a valid tool given the situation:
Charles J. Kelly, a former Baltimore Police Department lieutenant who wrote the department's use of force guidelines, said pepper spray is a "compliance tool" that can be used on subjects who do not resist, and is preferable to simply lifting protesters.
"When you start picking up human bodies, you risk hurting them," Kelly said. "Bodies don't have handles on them."
After reviewing the video, Kelly said he observed at least two cases of "active resistance" from protesters. In one instance, a woman pulls her arm back from an officer. In the second instance, a protester curls into a ball. Each of those actions could have warranted more force, including baton strikes and pressure-point techniques.
"What I'm looking at is fairly standard police procedure," Kelly said.
I can't admit to not knowing the details of something that happened nearly a decade ago without being intellectually dishonest? That seems unreasonable.
The internet has made everyone Perpetual Remembering Machines.
Wait, did this Peter Dutro person really stay in that fancy hotel?
Just to go back to this for a second and set the debate of FoxNews' general veracity aside, if we take the article at face value, it's still shit.
They present the idea of being successful in finance and participating in the demonstration as hypocritical or antithetical, strongly implying business can only be done one way. That responsible business is contrary to success.
Then you have the guy from one of the OWS committees. First, they identify him as a leader, misconstruing the role and obligation of the committees entirely. Second, they bring up a dollar amount for the donations in the same breath as discussing his choice to stay in the hotel. I'm not going to check the comments, but I'll guess that was just enough to bait people in to assuming he's appropriating OWS money for his personal stay. But if the converse is that he paid out of pocket, there's still the insistence that this is logically inconsistent for a protest participant, that if he is not personally destitute, he should have no concern for the larger situation.
Also,
During his stay, hotel sources said, he and other ragtag revolutionaries he brought into the hotel lived like 1 percenters. He would order up a roll-out bed to accommodate guests, they said.
lol. Living like a 1 percenter. Sleeping on an extra mattress on the floor.
Because one is a cop. You may not like that as an answer, and it is not an answer that excuses or grants one the ability to use such tactics whenever/wherever - but that is the reality of it. THAT is the difference.
It's called excessive use of force and is assault. . .
Your comment seemed as if it was spoken in generalities. As such MY comment was made in the general sense. And even so, such a distinction isn't yours to make. That's up to whomever this review board is going to be composed of to determine whether the pepper-spray was a valid tool given the situation:
Charles J. Kelly, a former Baltimore Police Department lieutenant who wrote the department's use of force guidelines, said pepper spray is a "compliance tool" that can be used on subjects who do not resist, and is preferable to simply lifting protesters.
"When you start picking up human bodies, you risk hurting them," Kelly said. "Bodies don't have handles on them."
After reviewing the video, Kelly said he observed at least two cases of "active resistance" from protesters. In one instance, a woman pulls her arm back from an officer. In the second instance, a protester curls into a ball. Each of those actions could have warranted more force, including baton strikes and pressure-point techniques.
"What I'm looking at is fairly standard police procedure," Kelly said.
Such a distinction is not mine to make, but apparently it's yours and a former police officer's? So a) ridiculously stupid hypocrisy, and b) ridiculously stupid moral myopia. I suppose if someone were to beat you to death with a baseball bat, I shouldn't be outraged either, because it's not my place to determine whether that's right or wrong, but God's.
Also if you're going to quote a police officer commenting on the excessive use of force, maybe not a Baltimore police officer.
Hahaha, oh man. This will be good. The drumming group from OWS has planned a 24-hour jam session in front of Bloomberg's townhouse on East 79th Street.
Okay, woah, don't do that, please, drummer folk. I don't see the need to start harassing people at their homes with loud drum music. That's crossing a line that I don't think should be crossed.
It's called shaming, and just because your rich doesn't mean you get a free ride. You do horrible things, people will protest you. You don't like it, don't do horrible things.
Charles J. Kelly, a former Baltimore Police Department lieutenant who wrote the department's use of force guidelines, said pepper spray is a "compliance tool" that can be used on subjects who do not resist, and is preferable to simply lifting protesters.
"When you start picking up human bodies, you risk hurting them," Kelly said. "Bodies don't have handles on them."
After reviewing the video, Kelly said he observed at least two cases of "active resistance" from protesters. In one instance, a woman pulls her arm back from an officer. In the second instance, a protester curls into a ball. Each of those actions could have warranted more force, including baton strikes and pressure-point techniques.
"What I'm looking at is fairly standard police procedure," Kelly said.
lolwut
"This college girl curled into ball. That's resisting arrest, and warrants physical assault. Pretty open and shut case if you ask me."
Gee whiz, I wonder why folks are kicking dirt over the good name of the police.
Charles J. Kelly, a former Baltimore Police Department lieutenant who wrote the department's use of force guidelines, said pepper spray is a "compliance tool" that can be used on subjects who do not resist, and is preferable to simply lifting protesters.
"When you start picking up human bodies, you risk hurting them," Kelly said. "Bodies don't have handles on them."
After reviewing the video, Kelly said he observed at least two cases of "active resistance" from protesters. In one instance, a woman pulls her arm back from an officer. In the second instance, a protester curls into a ball. Each of those actions could have warranted more force, including baton strikes and pressure-point techniques.
"What I'm looking at is fairly standard police procedure," Kelly said.
If Kelly is right, doesn't that make the situation even worse? I mean if it's protocol to hose down non-violent protesters like that, isn't that in of itself a huge problem?
If Kelly is right, doesn't that make the situation even worse? I mean if it's protocol to hose down non-violent protesters like that, isn't that in of itself a huge problem?
"Fairly standard police procedure" is apparently to anger and enlarge a crowd you're trying to disperse, fail to clear the path you were ordered to, then be publicly embarrassed all over the goddamned Internet. But dude, that's not your distinction to make. It's ED!'s.
Hahaha, oh man. This will be good. The drumming group from OWS has planned a 24-hour jam session in front of Bloomberg's townhouse on East 79th Street.
Okay, woah, don't do that, please, drummer folk. I don't see the need to start harassing people at their homes with loud drum music. That's crossing a line that I don't think should be crossed.
It's called shaming, and just because your rich doesn't mean you get a free ride. You do horrible things, people will protest you. You don't like it, don't do horrible things.
Look at the UC Davis Chancellor's walk of shame video. The protesters did that without going to her home, without beating drums, etc.
I don't see what a crowd of drummers outside of Bloomberg's house is going to do that they couldn't do without crossing that line into his personal space. I mean, do his children and spouse deserve the harassment too, now? His housekeeper (I sort-of presume he has one)? His neighbors?
No, he shouldn't get a free ride, but that doesn't mean we can decide it's a free-for-all and start scooping-up pounds of flesh as we please.
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Oh come on now. Sure they're very frequently wrong on a national level, probably intentionally so, but local fox affiliates still have some credibility when reporting on local interest stories, and I'm pretty sure the meteorologists aren't biasing their reports one way or another.
god, worst totp ever. Just so we're clear, I think that fox is often intentionally misleading, however it isn't a constant stream of misinformation issued in cooperation with the national government. So.. it's bad, but it isn't glorious leader bad.
They are planning to poison our water supply little by little each time it rains.
The clouds are actually stealth jets that spy on citizens who exercise their second amendment rights.
Lightning is a flare that goes off every time the left successful aborts a god-fearing embryo.
Uh, nope, how about I don't 'come on' now. Fox News is collection of bullshitting fraudsters. If they get anything right, it's due to the law of averages. Chief among their 'sources' is a Palestinian Jew who's been dead for a few thousand years, and an invisible deity that lives in the sky.
No, it's a constant stream of misinformation coming from whoever pays for it. And don't give me this bullshit about the weather reports, as if that somehow excuses the miserable heap of lies, edited transcripts, etc.
Here is Sean fucking Hannity, on FoxNews.com, advocating for American solidarity against vampires. In a non-ironic way.
There is very, very little difference between Fox News and the worst propaganda arms ever seen in a totalitarian state.
You're contradicting yourself here
It is glorious leader bad, The organisation has been caught red handed illegal wire tapping and suborning police officers in the UK and indulging in hacking in order to bury a US competitor.
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
If we have Rachel Maddow than obviously we need Bill O'Reilly.
Fair and balanced, yo.
You missed the part where I said "constant stream of misinformation issued in cooperation with the national government". That whole being in cahoots with the government would make an admittedly bad situation measurably worse. I don't disagree with the idea that news corps frequently misrepresents facts in an effort to promote a particular point of view, but it doesn't do so with explicit government backing and that makes a world of difference.
edit: The weather thing was meant to be tongue in cheek. It's sort of hard to report on snowfall with too much bias, other than lolClimate science.
You also point out exactly the difference between the worst propoganda arms and fox right there. They aren't on the government dole.
Do you remember that time that the Republicans had a sitting President, back in 2001, and then they used Fox News to spread a constant stream of misinformation about a connection between Al Qaeda and Iraq? And about yellow-cake uranium that had recently come into Iraq's possession?
Are you kidding me . . .
They are about as newsworthy a source as The North Korean Central News Agency at this point.
Is made due to the level of lying that Fox indulges in as their modus operandi.
Note how different it is to your goalpost shifting redefinition. it doesn't do so with explicit government backing
Fox news is as bad as a dear leader organisation. Ignoring the number of republican party partisans, Karl Rove and the Republican media consultant Roger Ailes as the president of the company.
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Wheres the eyeroll smiley?
From your pdf pepper-spray is “just above hands-on pain compliance and immediately below the use of impact weapons”. Of course this particular document relegates it's use for "dangerous or violently resisting suspect", while others place it firmly in the realm of compliance (often in the course of arresting someone to minimize physicality in an arrest).
The use of pepper-spray here is unfortunate, however based on your own chart - the "Empty Hand Control" option was the next step BEFORE use of pepper-spray, so yes, I guess you're right - joint locks, or kicks and punches should've proceeded this.
Why would you call the police at all? Sure they've broken into your home, but did so without actually breaking anything, and are just - sitting there. Clearly tresspassing and breaking the law but beyond that doing nothing else. We can create any number of scenarios to make this a peaceful home invader so that the burden of action (and the legality of such action) is placed on you the homeowner, just as has been done in this thread.
Uh, because people have violated my privacy and taken over my living room, that's why I'd call the police. I have a right to privacy, and the trespassers have violated my rights and refuse to leave. Since I'm not interested in a confrontation and can't deal with the situation myself, I contact the state's law enforcement arm to come and moderate the situation.
You might note that breaking into a private person's home is hugely different to blocking part of a sidewalk on a university campus, too, but whatever.
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
I don't think I moved the goal posts, but maybe I don't understand what you're getting at with that. That was the phrase I was using all along.
I'm just saying that a news organization systematically lying to us is very bad, but the government coordinating the lie with a news organization is much worse. I don't know that anyone disagrees that the first is happening, but I would like to think that if we had concrete evidence of the second that many people would be on trial or going to jail shortly.
Honestly I don't remember how that played out anymore. I seem to recall that the president and some cabinet members claimed as much on record, and that fox repeated it a lot. I don't remember how the other stations handled it at all, nor do I remember how everyone handled the revelation that the information wasn't correct.
The police officer spraying the completely passive kids with pepper spray was breaking the law. What's being done about that?
Perhaps you should learn the facts before you comitt yourself to a point of view?
Well, in the case of your hypothetical, they've done both.
UC Davis is a public university. It's not a privately owned space, and in any case, it's certainly not the private home of the school chancellor.
-.-
I'm just going to assume that a misogynist with some sort of Neo-Fascist outlook isn't in this thread for an honest debate, so I think I'll leave this tangent of conversation here.
And if the pepper spray didn't work, obviously the police should have just shot them.
ENFORCING THE LAW IS NOT A SUFFICIENT JUSTIFICATION TO VIOLATE THE LAW. Christ.
You remember that small group who left NYC to march to DC?
It's small, but I hope this gets more coverage.
...Uh. At this time of the year?
How many miles is it from NYC to DC?
This is a seperate tangent to the use of pepper-spray on those students. If you're going to snark, at least snark at the appropriate time.
UCD is public property insofar as a city park is public property. There are still rules governing its use.
Well of course I am a misogynist (how did gender get involved here?) Neo-Fascist for recognizing that civil disobedience has it's consequences.
So now the cops broke the law using pepper-spray? That's a whole different sort than simply recognizing that the use of pepper-spray was improper.
No, you're a misogynist for having a disgraceful sex-shaming remark in your sig, and a Neo-Fascist for deciding to be an apologetic for the casual use of lethal force.
Oh, okay. I guess that's not too crazy, then.
Love the spirit.
No you're being factious, Ender stated Fox news is about as trustworthy as a dear leader news organisation. You then leap to it's defence by stating yes fox news lies but isn't a constant stream of misinformation issued in cooperation with the national government. While all the time agreeing frequently wrong on a national level, probably intentionally so,
So yeah it is about as trustworthy as a dear leader organisation due to it's lying. Your pathetic defence to Ender stating Fox news is like a dear leader organisation is that it is not a actual North Korean dear leader organisation.
Your intellectual dishonesty is even more clear with the "I don't recollect" when Fox news was lying on behalf of the government concerning iraq and the yellow cake story.
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
http://gothamist.com/2011/11/20/occupy_wall_streets_24-hour_drum_ci.php
If anyone else maced someone for no reason without any provocation, they would be arrested and charged with assault. Why would it not be a crime when a cop does it?
It's called excessive use of force and is assault, you goose. Look up the damn peace officer laws before you open your mouth any more. Both practically and legally, what the police did UCDavis was wrong; they'll likely never be held legally accountable, but they've sure fucked things up practically now.
Okay, woah, don't do that, please, drummer folk. I don't see the need to start harassing people at their homes with loud drum music. That's crossing a line that I don't think should be crossed.
I can't admit to not knowing the details of something that happened nearly a decade ago without being intellectually dishonest? That seems unreasonable.
Pathetic.
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
Ahh. Well then I was correct to dismiss your comment. Carry on.
Because one is a cop. You may not like that as an answer, and it is not an answer that excuses or grants one the ability to use such tactics whenever/wherever - but that is the reality of it. THAT is the difference.
Your comment seemed as if it was spoken in generalities. As such MY comment was made in the general sense. And even so, such a distinction isn't yours to make. That's up to whomever this review board is going to be composed of to determine whether the pepper-spray was a valid tool given the situation:
The internet has made everyone Perpetual Remembering Machines.
Just to go back to this for a second and set the debate of FoxNews' general veracity aside, if we take the article at face value, it's still shit.
They present the idea of being successful in finance and participating in the demonstration as hypocritical or antithetical, strongly implying business can only be done one way. That responsible business is contrary to success.
Then you have the guy from one of the OWS committees. First, they identify him as a leader, misconstruing the role and obligation of the committees entirely. Second, they bring up a dollar amount for the donations in the same breath as discussing his choice to stay in the hotel. I'm not going to check the comments, but I'll guess that was just enough to bait people in to assuming he's appropriating OWS money for his personal stay. But if the converse is that he paid out of pocket, there's still the insistence that this is logically inconsistent for a protest participant, that if he is not personally destitute, he should have no concern for the larger situation.
Also,
lol. Living like a 1 percenter. Sleeping on an extra mattress on the floor.
I'm afraid you're wrong about that.
Such a distinction is not mine to make, but apparently it's yours and a former police officer's? So a) ridiculously stupid hypocrisy, and b) ridiculously stupid moral myopia. I suppose if someone were to beat you to death with a baseball bat, I shouldn't be outraged either, because it's not my place to determine whether that's right or wrong, but God's.
Also if you're going to quote a police officer commenting on the excessive use of force, maybe not a Baltimore police officer.
It's called shaming, and just because your rich doesn't mean you get a free ride. You do horrible things, people will protest you. You don't like it, don't do horrible things.
lolwut
"This college girl curled into ball. That's resisting arrest, and warrants physical assault. Pretty open and shut case if you ask me."
Gee whiz, I wonder why folks are kicking dirt over the good name of the police.
If Kelly is right, doesn't that make the situation even worse? I mean if it's protocol to hose down non-violent protesters like that, isn't that in of itself a huge problem?
"Fairly standard police procedure" is apparently to anger and enlarge a crowd you're trying to disperse, fail to clear the path you were ordered to, then be publicly embarrassed all over the goddamned Internet. But dude, that's not your distinction to make. It's ED!'s.
Look at the UC Davis Chancellor's walk of shame video. The protesters did that without going to her home, without beating drums, etc.
I don't see what a crowd of drummers outside of Bloomberg's house is going to do that they couldn't do without crossing that line into his personal space. I mean, do his children and spouse deserve the harassment too, now? His housekeeper (I sort-of presume he has one)? His neighbors?
No, he shouldn't get a free ride, but that doesn't mean we can decide it's a free-for-all and start scooping-up pounds of flesh as we please.