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PA comic: Wednesday Nov. 30, 2011 - The Conflux, Part Four

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    TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    Aurich wrote:
    Gabriel wrote:
    Just as a heads up. Space in the comic strip can not be purchased.

    Carry On.

    I'm going to have to rethink my christmas gift for my little brother.
    Well, there is the one exception of the strip they make for the person who wins the "buy a strip about you" item in the Child's Play auction.

    steam_sig.png
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    MaddnessMaddness Registered User regular
    edited December 2011

    Really if your 4E problem is literally "too many combat decisions" then cutting back on those decisions is the most direct fix, and with the modularity of 4E powers this is fairly easy to do. The only trouble would be getting your player characters to accept direct nerfs, they rarely excite anyone, wheras will often be swallowed gladly if it's in the guise of something new.
    Actually changing classes probably would be the best decision. Of course every single person I tend to talk to about the 4E->3.5E versions of certain classes despise them (Knight, Slayer, Skald, Hunter etc etc.) . I find them kind of fun for the reasons Tycho and Gabe talk about. They are simple and they only have one attack roll.
    For a lot of people, 4e fixed things that were actively getting in the way of their fun. Other people weren't bothered by those things, and continued to play 3.5 or migrated to Pathfinder. Does 3.x have a lot of weird mechanical oddities when you look at it on paper? No doubt. Can that sometimes crop up in play? Certainly. But that doesn't mean it's going to ruin the game for you, or necessarily get in the way of your fun.
    Debating over stupid rules is not fun. It will never be fun and its kind of boring.

    Maddness on
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    caubocalypsecaubocalypse Registered User new member
    Maddness wrote:
    You've never actually seen Monte Cook's Ivory Tower article about 3E.
    http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mc_los_142

    While I found that article interesting, Pathfinder is not 3E nor is it designed by Monte Cook. Pathfinder has its roots in the work he's done, but they are still very different beasts.

    And I disagree with your assertion that article states rules design of 3E was meant to screw people over. He was talking more about the design philosophy and the rules require a more in-depth read through to figure out how to make the best choices in regards to your character. It's more a discussion about the steeper learning curve necessary to understand the game moreso than talking about how people get screwed.

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    AlphastreamAlphastream Registered User regular
    Aegeri wrote:
    Yeah, they're totally going to get an awful surprise there.
    Maybe. We shouldn't take for granted that this comic is close to "real time". For all we know they've made the transition a bit ago and are revisiting what happened. They could be having an excellent time. Every gamer is different and we should all hope they have a great time with any RPG they try.
    Aegeri wrote:
    From my impressions, Epic Pathfinder was just about as broken as 3.5 - differently broken, but still entirely broken. 4E is also broken, but it's broken not because one guy can do everything and one guy does one thing that's no longer as useful - which is more important to me.
    Each edition has different drawbacks when it comes to Epic play and those may or may not be big issues for an individual gamer at a particular point in time. I had a blast playing to level 35 in AD&D, even though each level gain provided basically nothing to my character. It was about exploring the Abyss and ending Orcus, not about gaining personal power. I would not enjoy that sameness as much today - I've developed a greater taste for mechanical and story progression. Some players today may very much prefer that simplicity and story focus. When playing high-level 3.5 I had a blast, while recognizing the balance was deeply flawed. A good number of players (and DMs) love that lack of balance. 4E is much better in terms of balance and I've really enjoyed the Living Forgotten Realms epic play (available for free!), but it is clear that many DMs still struggle with challenging PCs in 4E Epic play. Epic play has always been the domain of the experienced DM and 4E didn't change that completely. And you can't offer PCs lots of options as they level without finding power creep at high levels. What is best will depend on the individual.

    But, while I enjoy thinking over different editions and RPGs, my bigger issue is that these guys should really be more aware of the state of the tabletop industry. Their comic was another divisive moment in the edition wars when it didn't have to be. It could have been positive. It could have been about encouraging gamers to try various games, which is positive. I find it particularly surprising given that they say they want to be stewards for tabletop gaming, say they work to encourage its growth, and have so many industry relationships.

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    LincolnSmashLincolnSmash New JerseyRegistered User new member
    edited December 2011
    Maddness wrote:
    Really if your 4E problem is literally "too many combat decisions" then cutting back on those decisions is the most direct fix, and with the modularity of 4E powers this is fairly easy to do. The only trouble would be getting your player characters to accept direct nerfs, they rarely excite anyone, wheras will often be swallowed gladly if it's in the guise of something new.
    Actually changing classes probably would be the best decision. Of course every single person I tend to talk to about the 4E->3.5E versions of certain classes despise them (Knight, Slayer, Skald, Hunter etc etc.) . I find them kind of fun for the reasons Tycho and Gabe talk about. They are simple and they only have one attack roll.
    That wasn't me saying that, actually. :)
    For a lot of people, 4e fixed things that were actively getting in the way of their fun. Other people weren't bothered by those things, and continued to play 3.5 or migrated to Pathfinder. Does 3.x have a lot of weird mechanical oddities when you look at it on paper? No doubt. Can that sometimes crop up in play? Certainly. But that doesn't mean it's going to ruin the game for you, or necessarily get in the way of your fun.
    Debating over stupid rules is not fun. It will never be fun and its kind of boring.
    Debating over stupid rules isn't required in 3e, and 4e's solution may not be universally satisfactory.

    Unless you meant the discussion here in the thread, in which case I wholeheartedly agree.

    LincolnSmash on
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    AlphastreamAlphastream Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    For all we know they've made the transition a bit ago and are revisiting what happened.
    Always fun to quote myself to point out how wrong I am. Today's writeup on Part 5 makes it clear this is fairly live. Good to see them recognize that there are issues with every edition and very cool to see that they are considering Fourthcore, one of the more innovative (and yet retro!) takes on 4E (and fan-created!).

    Alphastream on
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    MaddnessMaddness Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    Maybe. We shouldn't take for granted that this comic is close to "real time". For all we know they've made the transition a bit ago and are revisiting what happened. They could be having an excellent time. Every gamer is different and we should all hope they have a great time with any RPG they try.
    Yeah it was kind of obvious that they only started this recently when they stated they made the move to a product that only existed a month ago. And admittedly its a really good product.

    Maddness on
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    imperialusimperialus Registered User new member
    You want unforgiving?

    Monstrous Manual 1979.

    Vampire: Frequency Rare
    No. Appearing 1-4
    Armour Class 1
    Move: 12"/18"
    Hit Dice 8+3
    %In lair 25%
    Treasure Type F
    No. of Attacks 1
    Damage/Attack 5-10
    Special Attacks: Energy Drain
    Special Defenses: +1 to or better to hit.
    Magic Resistance: See Below
    Intelligence: Exceptional
    Alignment Chaotic Evil

    The most dreaded of the Chaotic Evil undead [snip]

    If a vampire scores a hit upon an opponent, its powerful blow causes 5-10 points of damage, and its powerful negative force drains 2 life energy levels from the victim, complete with corresponding losses in hit dice, ability level, attack level, ect.

    For added fun an 8 HD monster hits AC 0 on a 12 or better. Then you loose 2 levels. No saving throw... Oh, and they can cast charm person with a -2 to saving throws at will... And you can't actually kill them without tracking down their coffin and destroying it.

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    PMAversPMAvers Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    On a side note, I would pay all the monies for a podcast series of the PA crew playing Paranoia.

    That would truly be a beautiful thing. Just imagine the moment when they realize they could pull a laser pistol out and plug Scott.

    PMAvers on
    persona4celestia.jpg
    COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
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    AegeriAegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited December 2011
    For all we know they've made the transition a bit ago and are revisiting what happened.
    Always fun to quote myself to point out how wrong I am. Today's writeup on Part 5 makes it clear this is fairly live. Good to see them recognize that there are issues with every edition and very cool to see that they are considering Fourthcore, one of the more innovative (and yet retro!) takes on 4E (and fan-created!).

    I love how the comic so eloquently demonstrates this:
    For a lot of people, 4e fixed things that were actively getting in the way of their fun. Other people weren't bothered by those things, and continued to play 3.5 or migrated to Pathfinder. Does 3.x have a lot of weird mechanical oddities when you look at it on paper? No doubt. Can that sometimes crop up in play? Certainly. But that doesn't mean it's going to ruin the game for you, or necessarily get in the way of your fun.

    Because the way he interpreted that power is just such an overreach, it's almost certain to pick up an argument at the table. There is so much room for a secondary argument on what "Unattended" means in that context as well.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
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    rahkeesh2000rahkeesh2000 Registered User regular
    While I found that article interesting, Pathfinder is not 3E nor is it designed by Monte Cook. Pathfinder has its roots in the work he's done, but they are still very different beasts.

    Cook didn't invent pathfinder, but he did join Paizo shortly before the hardcover release, and was there for a few years. He's had his hand in some of the designs.

    Anyway the original Pathfinder CRB is even more incomprehensible than the WotC books, so if it's that way by accident rather than design, it would just be more damning. As they bill it, it's a book "by gamers for gamers", i.e. an oversized and enormously confusing mess to newcomers. They seem to have learned their lesson with formatting in the Beginner Box now though, so this may change going forward. Really strange how the Pathfinder title becomes an excuse to gloss over the idosyncracities of 3E. Many things have been revised and improved, but all of the major good and bad points of 3E are amply present - indeed the game owes most of its success to that very fact.
    But, while I enjoy thinking over different editions and RPGs, my bigger issue is that these guys should really be more aware of the state of the tabletop industry. Their comic was another divisive moment in the edition wars when it didn't have to be. It could have been positive. It could have been about encouraging gamers to try various games, which is positive. I find it particularly surprising given that they say they want to be stewards for tabletop gaming, say they work to encourage its growth, and have so many industry relationships.

    The purpose of "our comic is not for sale" means that those industry relationships don't mean a damn when it comes to the comic panels. They have alternately glorified, lambasted, or just plain been wierd with whatever products that were their own minds at the time that could make an entertaining strip. When Tycho gives his "reviews" on games it is not part of a calculated effort to steer the industry in one direction or another (i.e. he is not Extra Credits), and there's no reason Dungeons and Dragons deserves any special treatment. Today's post likely has far less to do with trying to play nice with an imagined "fair and balanced" mandate, than them coming to some accurate conclusions about 3E after doing more research.

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    tmontmon Registered User new member
    edited December 2011
    If Pathfinder is the old testament does that mean Basic and Advanced D&D is the Book of Revelations?
    It certainly feels that way when rolling a 1 for Max HP at first level.

    tmon on
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    PeccaviPeccavi Registered User regular
    Aurich wrote:
    Gabriel wrote:
    Just as a heads up. Space in the comic strip can not be purchased.

    Carry On.

    I'm going to have to rethink my christmas gift for my little brother.
    Well, there is the one exception of the strip they make for the person who wins the "buy a strip about you" item in the Child's Play auction.

    But they then forget about that strip until right before the next auction.

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    IvarIvar Oslo, NorwayRegistered User regular
    Peccavi wrote:
    Aurich wrote:
    Gabriel wrote:
    Just as a heads up. Space in the comic strip can not be purchased.

    Carry On.

    I'm going to have to rethink my christmas gift for my little brother.
    Well, there is the one exception of the strip they make for the person who wins the "buy a strip about you" item in the Child's Play auction.

    But they then forget about that strip until right before the next auction.

    And then they make at least one awesome panel

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    TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    Ivar wrote:
    Peccavi wrote:
    Aurich wrote:
    Gabriel wrote:
    Just as a heads up. Space in the comic strip can not be purchased.

    Carry On.

    I'm going to have to rethink my christmas gift for my little brother.
    Well, there is the one exception of the strip they make for the person who wins the "buy a strip about you" item in the Child's Play auction.

    But they then forget about that strip until right before the next auction.

    And then they make at least one awesome panel
    The moral of the story being, even when G&T sell strip space, they're still mostly bad at it.

    steam_sig.png
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