No Protoss players were underpowered during this post.
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
I lost a game that I could have won earlier but I didn't push hard enough
you actually have to. that is the balance of the matchup. I need to win early or create such a lead that I can throw units into upgraded zealots backed by templar and colossus and not worry about the terrible trade being made. upgrades that I can at best keep even on.
I'm not saying there's no answers but I sure as fuck don't know what they are. tanks are shit against zealots, thors lol, you'd be spending a comparable amount as the P does on colossus for a fraction of the effectiveness.
there's a point where ghosts don't matter. you don't need storms if you have colossus, archons are still great, and any smart protoss is making enough zealots that you aren't hitting anything else for a majority of the battle anyway.
it's frustrating. and it's not a situation you get to play in that often because basically any terran is, whether they know it or not, playing to keep the game to get from that point (assuming they watch and mimic pro games to any extent)
and I am like 99% sure recent games agree with me. once you hit the late game it's over.
I'd love to be completely wrong on this or have someone say 'no you idiot, you have to do xyz' no matter what that entails. I dunno though.
admitted bit of rage from losing but I think this post is fairly sound.
I lost a game that I could have won earlier but I didn't push hard enough
you actually have to. that is the balance of the matchup. I need to win early or create such a lead that I can throw units into upgraded zealots backed by templar and colossus and not worry about the terrible trade being made. upgrades that I can at best keep even on.
I'm not saying there's no answers but I sure as fuck don't know what they are. tanks are shit against zealots, thors lol, you'd be spending a comparable amount as the P does on colossus for a fraction of the effectiveness.
there's a point where ghosts don't matter. you don't need storms if you have colossus, archons are still great, and any smart protoss is making enough zealots that you aren't hitting anything else for a majority of the battle anyway.
it's frustrating. and it's not a situation you get to play in that often because basically any terran is, whether they know it or not, playing to keep the game to get from that point (assuming they watch and mimic pro games to any extent)
and I am like 99% sure recent games agree with me. once you hit the late game it's over.
I'd love to be completely wrong on this or have someone say 'no you idiot, you have to do xyz' no matter what that entails. I dunno though.
admitted bit of rage from losing but I think this post is fairly sound.
I think for the most part I agree. It's very similar to the way a protoss plays against a zerg, trying to constantly pressure them so that they don't get that unstoppable broodlord infestor combo. You just have to be over the map way more, drops, picking at weak points, trying your hardest to keep the collosus and base count low.
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
Most pro games we've seen that go to super late game TvP end with a P win. P's late game is terrifyingly good.
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KlykaDO you have anySPARE BATTERIES?Registered Userregular
Just put on "johnny b goode" and build a ton of marines. Works every time 50% of the time!
SC2 EU ID Klyka.110
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Euphemonitsudemo sagashiteiruyodokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered Userregular
edited December 2011
Yeah, T is probably in the worst position they've been in since beta. TvZ is pretty balanced still, maybe slightly favoring T at best, but TvP is in a bad place right now. Clide was talking about how Terran is really hard now, but because everyone still hates Terrans, there's no awareness.
Brat_ok playing very well. Sen kind of falling apart.
Euphemon on
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KlykaDO you have anySPARE BATTERIES?Registered Userregular
That one NASL caster right now is pretty good. Loved the Titanic joke.
SC2 EU ID Klyka.110
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Euphemonitsudemo sagashiteiruyodokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered Userregular
It's Husky and MrBitter casting right now.
Sen destroying shit now. Guess Brat_ok didn't do enough damage.
Yeah, T is probably in the worst position they've been in since beta. TvZ is pretty balanced still, maybe slightly favoring T at best, but TvP is in a bad place right now. Clide was talking about how Terran is really hard now, but because everyone still hates Terrans, there's no awareness.
I think it's "imbalanced" in the same way PvZ is "imbalanced". If you let the toss get his uber dream army composition off of 5 base and 25 gateways, you are going to lose.
it wasn't until i saw jjakji play today that i really realized just how much micro goes into the terran side of tvz
like to actually make those pushes work at that level requires just insane unit control, awareness, macro, everything, and similiarly the zerg needs to be absolutely on top of everything as well, which makes it really volatile but based a lot on player skill
and i feel like it makes for awesome games and makes zvt a great matchup, and then i look at tvp and it's just a big clump of units rolling around
Biosys on
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Euphemonitsudemo sagashiteiruyodokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered Userregular
edited December 2011
I think it's also a strategy phase thing. Terrans aren't too sure about how to approach TvP properly atm and counter toss's new innovations. Just like PvZ right now. I expect both matchups to equalize in another month.
Yeah, even in BW, ZvT was the best matchup to watch, and almost all the biggest rivalries were TvZ.
I'm not too sure what it is that protoss have "innovated" lately, but it feels like terrans feel they need to be more and more aggressive to punish early expansions, but protoss are getting better and better at holding those rushes. I'm pretty stoked every time I see a terran open reactor first 2 rax, because they end up pretty far behind when you hold it efficiently.
On the ladder. Is there a channel we should use or something? I never been near those.
Also, I totally agree that late game tvp is a lot like pvz. Man fuck zerg... I had that matchup 2 months ago, now I cant remember the last one I won. The balance seems to be that terran > zerg > protoss > terran in an infinite loop.
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Euphemonitsudemo sagashiteiruyodokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered Userregular
edited December 2011
Protoss pros have been going back to colossus mixed with zeal/archon. Getting upgrades more quickly and earlier. Knowing when to expand and how to hold them. Nothing amazingly big, but there's been a definite shift in pro play.
Incidentally, Z>P>T>Z was the loop in BW as well. The more things change...
On the ladder. Is there a channel we should use or something? I never been near those.
Also, I totally agree that late game tvp is a lot like pvz. Man fuck zerg... I had that matchup 2 months ago, now I cant remember the last one I won. The balance seems to be that terran > zerg > protoss > terran in an infinite loop.
A month ago people were calling late game TvP absolutely unwinnable for the protoss. Granted, there have been some pretty significant nerfs (the EMP one being the biggest), but for a large part I just feel like protoss' are getting better.
A month ago people were calling late game TvP absolutely unwinnable for the protoss. Granted, there have been some pretty significant nerfs (the EMP one being the biggest), but for a large part I just feel like protoss' are getting better.
I thought the cheaper upgrades for P felt like a big nerf, though the ghost nerf is killing me.
No Protoss players were underpowered during this post.
Hmm, I don't think the situation is nearly as dire as Vari is making it out to be. Terran was dominating lategame TvP for awhile until the EMP nerf and upgrade buffs, and it is finally starting to level out now. I still think that in a battle between a maxed out zealot/archon/collosus/templar army vs a maxed out marine/marauder/medivac/viking/ghost army, the winner is decided by the player with the better control and positioning (assuming equal upgrades of course). There hasn't been enough games played since the patch to make any definite claims about how lategame TvP is playing out right now, other than that it is no longer heavily T favoured.
A month ago people were calling late game TvP absolutely unwinnable for the protoss. Granted, there have been some pretty significant nerfs (the EMP one being the biggest), but for a large part I just feel like protoss' are getting better.
I thought the cheaper upgrades for P felt like a big nerf, though the ghost nerf is killing me.
Yeah that extra 50 minerals and 50 gas turned that matchup RIGHT AROUND
A month ago people were calling late game TvP absolutely unwinnable for the protoss. Granted, there have been some pretty significant nerfs (the EMP one being the biggest), but for a large part I just feel like protoss' are getting better.
I agree. the things that are done with blink stalkers now compared to just a couple months ago are incredible.
Hmm, I don't think the situation is nearly as dire as Vari is making it out to be. Terran was dominating lategame TvP for awhile until the EMP nerf and upgrade buffs, and it is finally starting to level out now. I still think that in a battle between a maxed out zealot/archon/collosus/templar army vs a maxed out marine/marauder/medivac/viking/ghost army, the winner is decided by the player with the better control and positioning (assuming equal upgrades of course). There hasn't been enough games played since the patch to make any definite claims about how lategame TvP is playing out right now, other than that it is no longer heavily T favoured.
I wouldn't use the word 'dire'
but if you look at the history and all the advantages terran had to justify the nerfs, the game never got to the state it regularly gets to now. when stim hit sooner the terran either inflicted damage or lost sooner. when emp was stronger the games rarely hit 'late game' without the terran being again either ahead or already dead because timings were that much stronger and more worth doing (sometimes they failed of course).
I have to assume this game is nauseating for a zerg player.
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Euphemonitsudemo sagashiteiruyodokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered Userregular
edited December 2011
Honestly speaking, zergs can't really complain right now. For the first time in a really long time, zergs are on top of the pile. ZvT is more or less even, except on retarded maps/positions, and ZvP is favoring zergs heavily atm.
That game with Morrow/Thorzain was kind of disgusting, but Shattered temple lategame is a little dumb and Morrow had an insane lead that he blew.
ALSO: after watching Leenock/Jjakji, both of them were not up to par, so it's less race and more player.
Euphemon on
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TannerMS "I'm confidence cause I'm zerg!"Registered Userregular
A month ago people were calling late game TvP absolutely unwinnable for the protoss. Granted, there have been some pretty significant nerfs (the EMP one being the biggest), but for a large part I just feel like protoss' are getting better.
I thought the cheaper upgrades for P felt like a big nerf, though the ghost nerf is killing me.
Yeah that extra 50 minerals and 50 gas turned that matchup RIGHT AROUND
Maybe your unkillable army of colossus, ht with storm and archon will make you feel better about it.
No Protoss players were underpowered during this post.
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TannerMS "I'm confidence cause I'm zerg!"Registered Userregular
I have no insight to offer on tvp, but that upgraDe change is the very definition of change for the sake of change. Maybe th emp nerf was lonely or something
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
a change for the sake of change matters if it means protoss are getting their upgrades faster
if it took a 'meaningless' change for that to happen it still makes a difference, and I see a lot more 2forge builds than I did before in pro games.
a change for the sake of change matters if it means protoss are getting their upgrades faster
if it took a 'meaningless' change for that to happen it still makes a difference, and I see a lot more 2forge builds than I did before in pro games.
Why wouldn't you? It's cheaper to make my units twice as effective? Yes please.
No Protoss players were underpowered during this post.
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TannerMS "I'm confidence cause I'm zerg!"Registered Userregular
Lots more double engi bay too. At the same time, more zergs going for a single late evo. The game changes constantly even without patches.
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
okay but this is the game changing after a change and then T and Z have to keep up, no?
it's also a sign that people are investing more in the lategame, which actually enforces my point of tvp playing out differently than it did before and fresh observations on lategame being reasonable.
Posts
you actually have to. that is the balance of the matchup. I need to win early or create such a lead that I can throw units into upgraded zealots backed by templar and colossus and not worry about the terrible trade being made. upgrades that I can at best keep even on.
I'm not saying there's no answers but I sure as fuck don't know what they are. tanks are shit against zealots, thors lol, you'd be spending a comparable amount as the P does on colossus for a fraction of the effectiveness.
there's a point where ghosts don't matter. you don't need storms if you have colossus, archons are still great, and any smart protoss is making enough zealots that you aren't hitting anything else for a majority of the battle anyway.
it's frustrating. and it's not a situation you get to play in that often because basically any terran is, whether they know it or not, playing to keep the game to get from that point (assuming they watch and mimic pro games to any extent)
and I am like 99% sure recent games agree with me. once you hit the late game it's over.
I'd love to be completely wrong on this or have someone say 'no you idiot, you have to do xyz' no matter what that entails. I dunno though.
admitted bit of rage from losing but I think this post is fairly sound.
you need to make more marines
Brat_ok playing very well. Sen kind of falling apart.
Sen destroying shit now. Guess Brat_ok didn't do enough damage.
I think it's "imbalanced" in the same way PvZ is "imbalanced". If you let the toss get his uber dream army composition off of 5 base and 25 gateways, you are going to lose.
like to actually make those pushes work at that level requires just insane unit control, awareness, macro, everything, and similiarly the zerg needs to be absolutely on top of everything as well, which makes it really volatile but based a lot on player skill
and i feel like it makes for awesome games and makes zvt a great matchup, and then i look at tvp and it's just a big clump of units rolling around
Yeah, even in BW, ZvT was the best matchup to watch, and almost all the biggest rivalries were TvZ.
On the ladder. Is there a channel we should use or something? I never been near those.
Also, I totally agree that late game tvp is a lot like pvz. Man fuck zerg... I had that matchup 2 months ago, now I cant remember the last one I won. The balance seems to be that terran > zerg > protoss > terran in an infinite loop.
Incidentally, Z>P>T>Z was the loop in BW as well. The more things change...
make more mari-
oh wait, protoss
i have no god damn clue then
I thought the cheaper upgrades for P felt like a big nerf, though the ghost nerf is killing me.
Yeah that extra 50 minerals and 50 gas turned that matchup RIGHT AROUND
Sounds like there are finally people there. Thank god.
I agree. the things that are done with blink stalkers now compared to just a couple months ago are incredible.
I wouldn't use the word 'dire'
but if you look at the history and all the advantages terran had to justify the nerfs, the game never got to the state it regularly gets to now. when stim hit sooner the terran either inflicted damage or lost sooner. when emp was stronger the games rarely hit 'late game' without the terran being again either ahead or already dead because timings were that much stronger and more worth doing (sometimes they failed of course).
That game with Morrow/Thorzain was kind of disgusting, but Shattered temple lategame is a little dumb and Morrow had an insane lead that he blew.
ALSO: after watching Leenock/Jjakji, both of them were not up to par, so it's less race and more player.
Terran.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
Maybe your unkillable army of colossus, ht with storm and archon will make you feel better about it.
if it took a 'meaningless' change for that to happen it still makes a difference, and I see a lot more 2forge builds than I did before in pro games.
Why wouldn't you? It's cheaper to make my units twice as effective? Yes please.
it's also a sign that people are investing more in the lategame, which actually enforces my point of tvp playing out differently than it did before and fresh observations on lategame being reasonable.