They really need to just take flash out of the game. I can understand using it to get closer and land a skillshot, or to escape a fight gone bad. I get that, and I have no problem with it. Except it doesn't get used like that the majority of the time. The majority of the time what you get is a Kassadin who will flash/silence/ignite. if not that, a Veiger who you have to stay 2000+ away from at all times or get flash/stunned followed by ignite. Some champions literally become a no sell running flash + ignite in laning phase. What does a few guaranteed kills do in laning phase? Help you win the rest of the game. Even better, Shaco/Twitch/Eve with Ignite + Exhaust to go with their stealth.
I can outplay and utterly destroy so many of those champions through superior play, but there is literally nothing you can do again flash + instant CC + ignite short in the laning phase as a squishy target. Not that being sturdier will help in any significant fashion. I literally run flash to counter flash, but when every offensive flash is paired with an instant CC... no point. The worst part, even if I somehow avoid it, they will catch someone on your team with it. At some time. It's pretty damn close to an "I win" button.
Now, this isn't an issue every single game I play, but it was in the last five games I played tonight. It's just stupid that such blatant imbalance exists. Even if you can shed the ignite and the CC, you still take the initial damage and are not in a position to punish.
Edit: 3v3 unranked so no bans. It's just dumb you need 6 bans between two teams to stop broken things. Just fix the game.
Double Edit: A really simple fix would be getting a 10 second cooldown on summoner spells when you cast one.
So, since we're in lane discussion, what exactly is stopping things like solo bottom instead of solo top or duo mid from happening? It seems like a great way to throw off an enemy team without losing too much, if any, farm, but it never happens, and is never even suggested.
I always wonder about this. A duo mid with solo top and bottom might be crazy enough to work.
I swear flash only moves you about 5 feet anymore... unless they decided to mess with people who have their cursor out further than the range of flash and make it flash a shorter distance.
Either way I've completely stopped running it on all but a few characters who absolutely need a gap closer/escape. Teleport or ghost is becoming my go to second spell.
it's too useful as an initiation mechanic and a defensive tool for them to remove it completely - too much of the metagame is based around it, and even champ design has to take flash into consideration (i.e the nocturne fear tether nerf)
maybe they'll take it out and add a blink dagger or something someday, but i think anyone hoping for them to take flash out completely is barking up the wrong tree
Sure it changes the mechanics of the game a bit but it's hardly a death sentence. Basically you just have to realize that it becomes advantageous to you to make the enemy waste their flash.
Is my order of streamers. Find Snoopeh and SV more entertaining and love watching Snoopeh take practically anyone into the jungle.
Doublelift is great to watch for some crazy AD carry action because dude seriously knows what he's about.
Bobs like my old reliable. I know he'll always be there if I wanna watch someone chill.
How in the first seven levels do you waste flash when you have a guranteed kill? Fourth level, lane against a Kassadin. He flashes at random, hits you with silence, puts ignite on you. There is nothing you can do about any part of that outside staying wwwwaaayyyyy the hell away from him. Most likely, you will die if you're any where near as squishy as he is. Even if you don't die, you're out of lane. How about versus a level six Veiger? Yeah, flash + stun + ignite and you are toast, no matter the champ you play.
The best part? You could be winning CS, Harass, and even have evaded ganks up to that point. You're dead now, advantage enemy.
You know what I hate more than anything? This goddamn scenario right here.
5 man premade I'm invited to. First two games nobody wants to jungle and nobody wants to tank, so I Jungle Rammus and we win both games handily.
Third game lobby I say "dibs on Irelia solo top, please", and at champ select the first two picks on my team are Blitz and Talon. Well, ok. Third pick is Lane Yi and fifth pick has announced he wants to AP mid as Heimer.
So I Jungle Fiddle and our lanes are Talon top vs Malphite, Heimer mid vs Kat, Blitz/Yi bottom vs Soraka/RandomRangedCarry and the enemy jungler is Shaco. Guess which team surrendered at 20?
I just wanted to play one game as my favorite champ, and after tanking/jungling the fuck out of two games you'd think I'd be given that opportunity.
Tree
Snoopeh
Literally anyone else
TSM people
Pooksie
The holy streamer order
shit trus, you get to play with some of the worst people.
EDIT: ho, dat flash.
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There's a few champs that are a billion times worse without flash. Galio and Fiddles both come to mind. Their ults are too difficult to use without it (Fiddles can get in, but I've mostly seen him need to ult and flash to really get good effect). Kennen isn't great without it either, but at least he's got some built in kit to go with his ult to try and make up for it.
How in the first seven levels do you waste flash when you have a guranteed kill? Fourth level, lane against a Kassadin. He flashes at random, hits you with silence, puts ignite on you. There is nothing you can do about any part of that outside staying wwwwaaayyyyy the hell away from him. Most likely, you will die if you're any where near as squishy as he is. Even if you don't die, you're out of lane. How about versus a level six Veiger? Yeah, flash + stun + ignite and you are toast, no matter the champ you play.
The best part? You could be winning CS, Harass, and even have evaded ganks up to that point. You're dead now, advantage enemy.
What weak laner are you playing that's losing to Kass mid that hard at 4? If he's using purple balls to wear you down such that he's actually a threat to kill you at 4, he should be getting limited CS since you should be punishing him whenever he's at the creepline.
Beyond which, if he's used offensive flash, he should die whenever your jungler wanders over at 5, so that's sending him out of lane. ;X
You know what I hate more than anything? This goddamn scenario right here.
5 man premade I'm invited to. First two games nobody wants to jungle and nobody wants to tank, so I Jungle Rammus and we win both games handily.
Third game lobby I say "dibs on Irelia solo top, please", and at champ select the first two picks on my team are Blitz and Talon. Well, ok. Third pick is Lane Yi and fifth pick has announced he wants to AP mid as Heimer.
So I Jungle Fiddle and our lanes are Talon top vs Malphite, Heimer mid vs Kat, Blitz/Yi bottom vs Soraka/RandomRangedCarry and the enemy jungler is Shaco. Guess which team surrendered at 20?
I just wanted to play one game as my favorite champ, and after tanking/jungling the fuck out of two games you'd think I'd be given that opportunity.
You could've always done jungle Irelia?
She's a little slow but it's not the end of the world.
I am actually right now testing some Jungle Irelia in custom games. Hard for me to figure out which masteries I want, heh.
The problem with Jungle Irelia is I really like to have a Triforce by 15 minutes, 20 tops, and it's not really plausible without the farm from a solo lane. Hell, I have a hard enough time doing that in solo top sometimes; I need more practice CSing with her without burning all my mana on Qs.
Edit: and jungling with her is just going to push back Triforce that much farther because Wriggles
I am actually right now testing some Jungle Irelia in custom games. Hard for me to figure out which masteries I want, heh.
The problem with Jungle Irelia is I really like to have a Triforce by 15 minutes, 20 tops, and it's not really plausible without the farm from a solo lane. Hell, I have a hard enough time doing that in solo top sometimes; I need more practice CSing with her without burning all my mana on Qs.
Edit: and jungling with her is just going to push back Triforce that much farther because Wriggles
Well...you don't 'need' a Triforce on her, it's just nice. You can make Wriggles, Merc's, Wit's End work really, really well using a W build.
Yeeaahhhh, I suppose. I like Sheen + Phage as games start to look toward smaller teamfights because they help me blow up carries. I don't want to have to autoattack them all day, heh.
What champs are hard counters to Cait? Tempted to pick one up, just for the pleasure of shitting on her over and over during her free weeks. And by that I mean every other week.
What champs are hard counters to Cait? Tempted to pick one up, just for the pleasure of shitting on her over and over during her free weeks. And by that I mean every other week.
i would like to know this too.
i have had some success with Morgana against Cait. You can actually stop her from pushing your tower in at will.
What champs are hard counters to Cait? Tempted to pick one up, just for the pleasure of shitting on her over and over during her free weeks. And by that I mean every other week.
In lane, or in general?
Something like Vayne/Alistar can work as a lane against her. Alistar does his combo into Vayne wall stun into death. This isn't a sure thing, obviously, but Cait is pretty hard to kill in general if she is paired with a sustain support.
In general any sort of tanky DPS with a dash works as long as you avoid her net
It could, you would have to hit your E or ultimate to slow her until you get your Rylias. You would be pretty susceptible to peeling by the enemy support/jungler though.
There's a few champs that are a billion times worse without flash. Galio and Fiddles both come to mind. Their ults are too difficult to use without it (Fiddles can get in, but I've mostly seen him need to ult and flash to really get good effect). Kennen isn't great without it either, but at least he's got some built in kit to go with his ult to try and make up for it.
How in the first seven levels do you waste flash when you have a guranteed kill? Fourth level, lane against a Kassadin. He flashes at random, hits you with silence, puts ignite on you. There is nothing you can do about any part of that outside staying wwwwaaayyyyy the hell away from him. Most likely, you will die if you're any where near as squishy as he is. Even if you don't die, you're out of lane. How about versus a level six Veiger? Yeah, flash + stun + ignite and you are toast, no matter the champ you play.
The best part? You could be winning CS, Harass, and even have evaded ganks up to that point. You're dead now, advantage enemy.
What weak laner are you playing that's losing to Kass mid that hard at 4? If he's using purple balls to wear you down such that he's actually a threat to kill you at 4, he should be getting limited CS since you should be punishing him whenever he's at the creepline.
Beyond which, if he's used offensive flash, he should die whenever your jungler wanders over at 5, so that's sending him out of lane. ;X
My problem isn't with Kassadin or flash individually. My problem is with people running flash + ignite + CC you don't have to skillshot, or people who run stealth + exhaust + ignite. in either case, you're put in a situation where you are killed or pushed out of lane. With no ability to so much as react if you're anywhere remotely close to them. It's not just Kassadin. I have had Annie, Kassadin, and Veiger pull this kind of stunt from time to time. I understand Veiger's stun isn't a guarantee, but it is pretty much impossible to dodge if they aim it even remotely. Unless he misses, you don't walk into it mid step, and you blink out of it to safety you're most likely still hosed. Even if you end up in such an idyllic situation... you had to use flash too.
These are people that I either see coming if they're going top/bottom, or am playing against mid. Most of the time, winning the match up between AP. Then this BS happens and I am dead or hurting and in need of a recall. Nothing against me as a player, and definitely not because my opponent had any kind of skill in the least.
Summoner abilities really shouldn't be able to be used in rapid fire conjunction like that.
These are people that I either see coming if they're going top/bottom, or am playing against mid. Most of the time, winning the match up between AP. Then this BS happens and I am dead or hurting and in need of a recall. Nothing against me as a player, and definitely not because my opponent had any kind of skill in the least.
Summoner abilities really shouldn't be able to be used in rapid fire conjunction like that.
they seemed to be skilled enough to catch you with their planned tactic
To be a bit less snarky, you really should be thinking "Okay, they still have both summoners up, one of which is Ignite. At any given point they can push in and do X damage to me." and play accordingly. This just sounds like you thought you had an advantage, so you played cocky, and then they punished you for not thinking about what they were capable of doing.
What champs are hard counters to Cait? Tempted to pick one up, just for the pleasure of shitting on her over and over during her free weeks. And by that I mean every other week.
Pick up a champion with a ranged stun/silence you can land without a skillshot. Take flash and ignite as your summoner spells. Get within range to blink and fire off your ranged CC. Hit her with ignite. Then hit her with other champion abilities or turn and distance yourself. You will either kill her or push her out of lane.
Good champions for this are Annie, Veiger, and Kassadin. If you have a champion with stealth, feel free to change out flash for exhaust. You can keep the flash/ignite if you want to make sure you escape, but exhaust is almost as good since it reduces her ability damage and wrecks her attack damage.
These are people that I either see coming if they're going top/bottom, or am playing against mid. Most of the time, winning the match up between AP. Then this BS happens and I am dead or hurting and in need of a recall. Nothing against me as a player, and definitely not because my opponent had any kind of skill in the least.
Summoner abilities really shouldn't be able to be used in rapid fire conjunction like that.
they seemed to be skilled enough to catch you with their planned tactic
What's skilled about flashing into ability range, landing the ability, and following it up with ignite? Don't be a goose. The only way to avoid that is to stay outside ability range with flash factored in. You're talking a range of 650 plus flash. Now if I'm playing a champ with a very healthy range of 1000, how am I supposed to avoid that? I can't flash before they do to any effect other than looking like a moron, and I can't flash after I am hit by the CC.
Edit: The main problem is you cannot play accordingly short of standing back with no hope to ever get a single point of creep score. You can takes steps to ensure they don't KILL you outright, but you're still pushed out of lane and you are still losing creep score. heaven help you if they have a jungle Shaco come to help out next time.
My problem isn't with Kassadin or flash individually. My problem is with people running flash + ignite + CC you don't have to skillshot, or people who run stealth + exhaust + ignite. in either case, you're put in a situation where you are killed or pushed out of lane. With no ability to so much as react if you're anywhere remotely close to them. It's not just Kassadin. I have had Annie, Kassadin, and Veiger pull this kind of stunt from time to time. I understand Veiger's stun isn't a guarantee, but it is pretty much impossible to dodge if they aim it even remotely. Unless he misses, you don't walk into it mid step, and you blink out of it to safety you're most likely still hosed. Even if you end up in such an idyllic situation... you had to use flash too.
These are people that I either see coming if they're going top/bottom, or am playing against mid. Most of the time, winning the match up between AP. Then this BS happens and I am dead or hurting and in need of a recall. Nothing against me as a player, and definitely not because my opponent had any kind of skill in the least.
Summoner abilities really shouldn't be able to be used in rapid fire conjunction like that.
there are a lot of things wrong with this post but I'm going to ignore them in favor of coming out and ask what I've been wondering while lurking: is this a perspective colored by midding/playing lux all the time? I feel that it's almost certain because I used to play veigar mid in unranked quite often when I didn't get heckled out of the idea, and lux is one of the only possible champions that could die to a veigar enough times to elicit reactions like this. almost any other champ is far too abusive to a veigar that's using most of his mana to farm q for him to be in a position to kill you, but lux is just that poor of a mid champ. kassadin and annie are more viable AP mids but even then it shouldn't be as bad as you make it out to be.
I really hope this doesn't sound accusatory because it's not my point to put you on the spot. I just think you should go into your playstyle a little bit more to help us understand, rather than advocating huge changes for no real reason besides general frustration.
What's skilled about flashing into ability range, landing the ability, and following it up with ignite? Don't be a troll. The only way to avoid that is to stay outside ability range with flash factored in. You're talking a range of 650 plus flash. Now if I'm playing a champ with a very healthy range of 1000, how am I supposed to avoid that? I can't flash before they do to any effect other than looking like a moron, and I can't flash after I am hit by the CC.
you can't avoid it if you're seriously in danger of an instagib all the time, but why are you? the question is what you're doing to mitigate the risk/reward of them trying to blow everything and go for a solo lane kill. if you're not harassing them at all, aren't playing a tanky or generally survivable champ or are playing a champ with negligible pressure, you'll lose lanes to people of equal skill who are playing the more viable champion almost every time.
Stop calling everything that beats you unskilled. Either learn to deal with the mechanics and understand how much damage your opponent can do to you at any given time or lose.
Just because you keep getting thrown in Street Fighter because holding back doesn't block them doesn't mean throws are imbalanced and a no-skill idiot beat you.
These are people that I either see coming if they're going top/bottom, or am playing against mid. Most of the time, winning the match up between AP. Then this BS happens and I am dead or hurting and in need of a recall. Nothing against me as a player, and definitely not because my opponent had any kind of skill in the least.
Summoner abilities really shouldn't be able to be used in rapid fire conjunction like that.
they seemed to be skilled enough to catch you with their planned tactic
What's skilled about flashing into ability range, landing the ability, and following it up with ignite? Don't be a troll. The only way to avoid that is to stay outside ability range with flash factored in. You're talking a range of 650 plus flash. Now if I'm playing a champ with a very healthy range of 1000, how am I supposed to avoid that? I can't flash before they do to any effect other than looking like a moron, and I can't flash after I am hit by the CC.
And what is preventing you from doing the same thing? If he can kill you with flash+combo and you can't then he is out laning you and you should work on that.
- I am playing a champ without the same kind of hard CC on demand. IE- Ryze, Lux, Morganna
- I didn't take flash + ignite either due to blind pick, different spots in the draft, or I prefer utility spells like Teleport to high cheese.
- If I have to do the same thing, that defeats the purpose of competition. I will either turn around and do it right back, or they will sit far back from the creep and do nothing until their flash/ignite is back up. At which point it becomes a battle of no skill chicken.
Stop calling what the opponent does to beat you no skill and cheese. You have already decided that you are doing nothing wrong and it is not at all your fault that you died. Stop that. Every death is your fault. If you've already decided that you can't improve, then you're not going to improve, and you're going to keep dying to players who are better than you and who do not have your incredible arrogance.
Can't use summoner spells when you are silenced, unless cleanse is unique in that regard. If it works when silenced/stunned, then it makes a good specific counter pick. In that it is a counter pick, and shouldn't be required just to have any hope of laning.
Yeah, I lost solo mid against her hard once, when forced to go there because my team went "lawl not going mid". Interesting that the situation reverses top, is it because it's less trivial for her to zone you with her cupcakes?
Yeah, I lost solo mid against her hard once, when forced to go there because my team went "lawl not going mid". Interesting that the situation reverses top, is it because it's less trivial for her to zone you with her cupcakes?
Harder to zone you with cupcakes and farther to get back to the safety of her tower, meaning that if you manage to successfully get on her she has to run and eat your damage that much longer, and she has a harder time getting away from any jungle ganks.
Stop calling what the opponent does to beat you no skill and cheese. You have already decided that you are doing nothing wrong and it is not at all your fault that you died. Stop that. Every death is your fault. If you've already decided that you can't improve, then you're not going to improve, and you're going to keep dying to players who are better than you and who do not have your incredible arrogance.
I try to learn from every death, and part of that is analyzing how and why I died. In this case, the how and why turned out to be I was less than X distance from the enemy. Could I have reacted to what they did... let's play back through the events. I was laning, was about 1400 away from my opponent. Was well outside either of our spell ranges, and wasn't even moving in to get a last hit. I would have flashed when they did... except I was already CC at that point. Then they ignited me. No way I'm going to win the fight at this point... so I should try and not give them a kill. Except I am also ignited.
Should I live, I need to recall.
Now, if my analysis is so wrong and I am a bad person for not knowing what to do by all means educate me. You are very much acting the Monday morning quarterback.
Can't use summoner spells when you are silenced, unless cleanse is unique in that regard. If it works when silenced/stunned, then it makes a good specific counter pick. In that it is a counter pick, and shouldn't be required just to have any hope of laning.
It works while silenced, it would be incredibly useless if you couldn't use it will CC'd
While you are playing Ryze, Lux, Morg, etc: are you constantly harassing your opponent and keeping them low? If you're not you are playing the champions wrong, do this and, hey guess what they can't flash Ult you because you can kill them.
If you are running teleport you are using defensive summoners so you have to play defensively. Back earlier than normal and TP back, congratulations you can now survive their combo.
Flash+Ignite is pretty easily the best summoner option for AP mid, using it doesn't defeat the purpose of competition it just means you have recognized the most powerful combination and are using it.
Can't use summoner spells when you are silenced, unless cleanse is unique in that regard. If it works when silenced/stunned, then it makes a good specific counter pick. In that it is a counter pick, and shouldn't be required just to have any hope of laning.
yeah, it shouldn't be required, which is why trus's comment was almost certainly tongue in cheek. you can make boring, pointless balance arguments all you like, but in the end mid matchups are always going to come down to you understanding what your champ can do vs. theirs and vice versa. this includes summoners, because why the fuck wouldn't it?
without considering jungle interference, if you die in mid you've done something wrong. if you're that worried about a matchup due to champ interaction (leblanc vs. lux comes to mind, for me) or just don't think you can handle the matchup for whatever reason, play safely/buy defensive items or switch out. if you die, it's your fault.
Now, if my analysis is so wrong and I am a bad person for not knowing what to do by all means educate me. You are very much acting the Monday morning quarterback.
you're not a bad person, you're just coaching the problem in the most aggressive and least productive terms possible. as far as lol can be said to be a "skillful" game, understanding these champion interactions in the contexts of what lane, what summoners, what runes, etc. is required to be considered a good player. you don't sound like you've mastered this (and it's not like it doesn't take time, or effort), so this constant posturing makes people mount their own soapboxes.
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I can outplay and utterly destroy so many of those champions through superior play, but there is literally nothing you can do again flash + instant CC + ignite short in the laning phase as a squishy target. Not that being sturdier will help in any significant fashion. I literally run flash to counter flash, but when every offensive flash is paired with an instant CC... no point. The worst part, even if I somehow avoid it, they will catch someone on your team with it. At some time. It's pretty damn close to an "I win" button.
Now, this isn't an issue every single game I play, but it was in the last five games I played tonight. It's just stupid that such blatant imbalance exists. Even if you can shed the ignite and the CC, you still take the initial damage and are not in a position to punish.
Edit: 3v3 unranked so no bans. It's just dumb you need 6 bans between two teams to stop broken things. Just fix the game.
Double Edit: A really simple fix would be getting a 10 second cooldown on summoner spells when you cast one.
I always wonder about this. A duo mid with solo top and bottom might be crazy enough to work.
Either way I've completely stopped running it on all but a few characters who absolutely need a gap closer/escape. Teleport or ghost is becoming my go to second spell.
maybe they'll take it out and add a blink dagger or something someday, but i think anyone hoping for them to take flash out completely is barking up the wrong tree
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Sure it changes the mechanics of the game a bit but it's hardly a death sentence. Basically you just have to realize that it becomes advantageous to you to make the enemy waste their flash.
SV
Doublelift
GBob
Is my order of streamers. Find Snoopeh and SV more entertaining and love watching Snoopeh take practically anyone into the jungle.
Doublelift is great to watch for some crazy AD carry action because dude seriously knows what he's about.
Bobs like my old reliable. I know he'll always be there if I wanna watch someone chill.
The best part? You could be winning CS, Harass, and even have evaded ganks up to that point. You're dead now, advantage enemy.
Snoopeh
Literally anyone else
TSM people
Pooksie
The holy streamer order
5 man premade I'm invited to. First two games nobody wants to jungle and nobody wants to tank, so I Jungle Rammus and we win both games handily.
Third game lobby I say "dibs on Irelia solo top, please", and at champ select the first two picks on my team are Blitz and Talon. Well, ok. Third pick is Lane Yi and fifth pick has announced he wants to AP mid as Heimer.
So I Jungle Fiddle and our lanes are Talon top vs Malphite, Heimer mid vs Kat, Blitz/Yi bottom vs Soraka/RandomRangedCarry and the enemy jungler is Shaco. Guess which team surrendered at 20?
I just wanted to play one game as my favorite champ, and after tanking/jungling the fuck out of two games you'd think I'd be given that opportunity.
Inquisitor77: Rius, you are Sisyphus and melee Wizard is your boulder
Tube: This must be what it felt like to be an Iraqi when Saddam was killed
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shit trus, you get to play with some of the worst people.
EDIT: ho, dat flash.
What weak laner are you playing that's losing to Kass mid that hard at 4? If he's using purple balls to wear you down such that he's actually a threat to kill you at 4, he should be getting limited CS since you should be punishing him whenever he's at the creepline.
Beyond which, if he's used offensive flash, he should die whenever your jungler wanders over at 5, so that's sending him out of lane. ;X
You could've always done jungle Irelia?
She's a little slow but it's not the end of the world.
The problem with Jungle Irelia is I really like to have a Triforce by 15 minutes, 20 tops, and it's not really plausible without the farm from a solo lane. Hell, I have a hard enough time doing that in solo top sometimes; I need more practice CSing with her without burning all my mana on Qs.
Edit: and jungling with her is just going to push back Triforce that much farther because Wriggles
Inquisitor77: Rius, you are Sisyphus and melee Wizard is your boulder
Tube: This must be what it felt like to be an Iraqi when Saddam was killed
Bookish Stickers - Mrs. Rius' Etsy shop with bumper stickers and vinyl decals.
Inquisitor77: Rius, you are Sisyphus and melee Wizard is your boulder
Tube: This must be what it felt like to be an Iraqi when Saddam was killed
Bookish Stickers - Mrs. Rius' Etsy shop with bumper stickers and vinyl decals.
i would like to know this too.
i have had some success with Morgana against Cait. You can actually stop her from pushing your tower in at will.
In lane, or in general?
Something like Vayne/Alistar can work as a lane against her. Alistar does his combo into Vayne wall stun into death. This isn't a sure thing, obviously, but Cait is pretty hard to kill in general if she is paired with a sustain support.
In general any sort of tanky DPS with a dash works as long as you avoid her net
probably not
she can just shoot you for free all day, and if you try to scrap shield your way in she'll just net and then shoot you some more
you want someone like irelia
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My problem isn't with Kassadin or flash individually. My problem is with people running flash + ignite + CC you don't have to skillshot, or people who run stealth + exhaust + ignite. in either case, you're put in a situation where you are killed or pushed out of lane. With no ability to so much as react if you're anywhere remotely close to them. It's not just Kassadin. I have had Annie, Kassadin, and Veiger pull this kind of stunt from time to time. I understand Veiger's stun isn't a guarantee, but it is pretty much impossible to dodge if they aim it even remotely. Unless he misses, you don't walk into it mid step, and you blink out of it to safety you're most likely still hosed. Even if you end up in such an idyllic situation... you had to use flash too.
These are people that I either see coming if they're going top/bottom, or am playing against mid. Most of the time, winning the match up between AP. Then this BS happens and I am dead or hurting and in need of a recall. Nothing against me as a player, and definitely not because my opponent had any kind of skill in the least.
Summoner abilities really shouldn't be able to be used in rapid fire conjunction like that.
Caitlyn mid has trouble against a lot of bursty APs. Brand or Kennen can use their CC to win fights with her.
they seemed to be skilled enough to catch you with their planned tactic
To be a bit less snarky, you really should be thinking "Okay, they still have both summoners up, one of which is Ignite. At any given point they can push in and do X damage to me." and play accordingly. This just sounds like you thought you had an advantage, so you played cocky, and then they punished you for not thinking about what they were capable of doing.
Pick up a champion with a ranged stun/silence you can land without a skillshot. Take flash and ignite as your summoner spells. Get within range to blink and fire off your ranged CC. Hit her with ignite. Then hit her with other champion abilities or turn and distance yourself. You will either kill her or push her out of lane.
Good champions for this are Annie, Veiger, and Kassadin. If you have a champion with stealth, feel free to change out flash for exhaust. You can keep the flash/ignite if you want to make sure you escape, but exhaust is almost as good since it reduces her ability damage and wrecks her attack damage.
What's skilled about flashing into ability range, landing the ability, and following it up with ignite? Don't be a goose. The only way to avoid that is to stay outside ability range with flash factored in. You're talking a range of 650 plus flash. Now if I'm playing a champ with a very healthy range of 1000, how am I supposed to avoid that? I can't flash before they do to any effect other than looking like a moron, and I can't flash after I am hit by the CC.
Edit: The main problem is you cannot play accordingly short of standing back with no hope to ever get a single point of creep score. You can takes steps to ensure they don't KILL you outright, but you're still pushed out of lane and you are still losing creep score. heaven help you if they have a jungle Shaco come to help out next time.
there are a lot of things wrong with this post but I'm going to ignore them in favor of coming out and ask what I've been wondering while lurking: is this a perspective colored by midding/playing lux all the time? I feel that it's almost certain because I used to play veigar mid in unranked quite often when I didn't get heckled out of the idea, and lux is one of the only possible champions that could die to a veigar enough times to elicit reactions like this. almost any other champ is far too abusive to a veigar that's using most of his mana to farm q for him to be in a position to kill you, but lux is just that poor of a mid champ. kassadin and annie are more viable AP mids but even then it shouldn't be as bad as you make it out to be.
I really hope this doesn't sound accusatory because it's not my point to put you on the spot. I just think you should go into your playstyle a little bit more to help us understand, rather than advocating huge changes for no real reason besides general frustration.
you can't avoid it if you're seriously in danger of an instagib all the time, but why are you? the question is what you're doing to mitigate the risk/reward of them trying to blow everything and go for a solo lane kill. if you're not harassing them at all, aren't playing a tanky or generally survivable champ or are playing a champ with negligible pressure, you'll lose lanes to people of equal skill who are playing the more viable champion almost every time.
Just because you keep getting thrown in Street Fighter because holding back doesn't block them doesn't mean throws are imbalanced and a no-skill idiot beat you.
And what is preventing you from doing the same thing? If he can kill you with flash+combo and you can't then he is out laning you and you should work on that.
Also, if you don't have the reflexes for skill shots, pick up a champion that doesn't use them - like Maokai.
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- I am playing a champ without the same kind of hard CC on demand. IE- Ryze, Lux, Morganna
- I didn't take flash + ignite either due to blind pick, different spots in the draft, or I prefer utility spells like Teleport to high cheese.
- If I have to do the same thing, that defeats the purpose of competition. I will either turn around and do it right back, or they will sit far back from the creep and do nothing until their flash/ignite is back up. At which point it becomes a battle of no skill chicken.
Harder to zone you with cupcakes and farther to get back to the safety of her tower, meaning that if you manage to successfully get on her she has to run and eat your damage that much longer, and she has a harder time getting away from any jungle ganks.
I try to learn from every death, and part of that is analyzing how and why I died. In this case, the how and why turned out to be I was less than X distance from the enemy. Could I have reacted to what they did... let's play back through the events. I was laning, was about 1400 away from my opponent. Was well outside either of our spell ranges, and wasn't even moving in to get a last hit. I would have flashed when they did... except I was already CC at that point. Then they ignited me. No way I'm going to win the fight at this point... so I should try and not give them a kill. Except I am also ignited.
Should I live, I need to recall.
Now, if my analysis is so wrong and I am a bad person for not knowing what to do by all means educate me. You are very much acting the Monday morning quarterback.
It works while silenced, it would be incredibly useless if you couldn't use it will CC'd
While you are playing Ryze, Lux, Morg, etc: are you constantly harassing your opponent and keeping them low? If you're not you are playing the champions wrong, do this and, hey guess what they can't flash Ult you because you can kill them.
If you are running teleport you are using defensive summoners so you have to play defensively. Back earlier than normal and TP back, congratulations you can now survive their combo.
Flash+Ignite is pretty easily the best summoner option for AP mid, using it doesn't defeat the purpose of competition it just means you have recognized the most powerful combination and are using it.
yeah, it shouldn't be required, which is why trus's comment was almost certainly tongue in cheek. you can make boring, pointless balance arguments all you like, but in the end mid matchups are always going to come down to you understanding what your champ can do vs. theirs and vice versa. this includes summoners, because why the fuck wouldn't it?
without considering jungle interference, if you die in mid you've done something wrong. if you're that worried about a matchup due to champ interaction (leblanc vs. lux comes to mind, for me) or just don't think you can handle the matchup for whatever reason, play safely/buy defensive items or switch out. if you die, it's your fault.
you're not a bad person, you're just coaching the problem in the most aggressive and least productive terms possible. as far as lol can be said to be a "skillful" game, understanding these champion interactions in the contexts of what lane, what summoners, what runes, etc. is required to be considered a good player. you don't sound like you've mastered this (and it's not like it doesn't take time, or effort), so this constant posturing makes people mount their own soapboxes.