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[Dota 2] Old thread. Please lock.

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Posts

  • Vi MonksVi Monks Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    P10 wrote:
    Vi Monks wrote:
    While we're talking item builds, how about Nature's Prophet? I usually find myself in a semi-carry role with him, simply due to the ridiculous amount of farm he can get. I've had pretty good luck with the suggested items (Scythe of Vyse, Desolator, Agahim's, if I remember correctly), but I always feel really squishy. I've recently started going for a Vanguard after treads, and then getting either Desolator or Scythe, depending on my team composition. But I feel like this delays my damage output quite a bit. Is there any other build that would be better suited? Or maybe I should move away from the carry role altogether and just go for full support? I've had one good game where I went scythe, mek, and pipe, so that might work.

    Of course, I might be going about this all wrong (only played nine games or so other than bot games).
    tbh it doesn't matter what you buy as long as you have >500 GPM (which you should, because you're furion and horrendously overpowered, and I assume if this is a pub build you're getting Midas).

    Generally people skip defensive items like Vanguard on him because Scythe + Sprout gives him plenty of durability through CC. Going full support is entirely viable as well - Necronomicon level 3 on him is really really strong...

    I had forgotten all about Midas. I'll definitely try that out next time. And yeah, my GPM is usually 500-600, but my late game farm is significantly higher than mid, so it takes a little while to get the ball rolling in terms of GPM. But I'll try sticking to sprout and scythe for survivability, like you said. I'm sure most of my issues with it are just getting caught out of position.

    I kind of feel bad about playing prophet since he's obviously so strong, but I just can't help it. Teleporting all over the map all game long is too much fun!

    @Page-

    While that gank build does sound like tons of fun, I'm looking for a more well-rounded build for the moment. I'm still working on fundamentals, so I'm trying to avoid gimmicky stuff. Though prophet feels like a kind of gimmicky hero, so I might should branch out a bit more. But like I said, he's too much fun!

    Vi Monks on
  • nealcmnealcm Alvarian AlvarianRegistered User regular
    oh my god rank 3 aghanim's scepter death ward triple kills always

    19ZUtIw.png
  • Page-Page- Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    If you want to master Prophet then you need to keep a few things in mind at all times.

    Vision. You need map vision. Run around early, but if you're going for a jungle or push build then send your trees out to scout as many important map spots as you can.

    His hp pool. It's dirt. Stay the hell away from hard disables and nukes, especially early. You will die.

    Teleport cancels. Learn how to use them and learn when to use them. They're really useful even if you don't plan on ganking, because the enemy can see them. All you have to do to get another lane to back off is fake a teleport in there. It'll spook them or cluster them, but since you don't have to follow through it's free pressure. Because teleport has a 3 second channel just hit stop before it finishes.

    Teleporting in general. Don't forget that you have it, and that you don't have to always teleport across the map. If you're chasing someone and you can't catch them by walking then simply teleport in front of them, ideally out of their vision or they'll see you coming and juke. If they see you teleporting and try to juke anyway then you can cancel the teleport and be waiting for them.

    Sprout. It's a good skill, but it's easy to get wrong. Be careful about screwing your team over with sprouts, and remember you can cast it in the open now to block escapes or prevent chasing. Run through a choke and drop your sprout and now they can't follow. It also gives vision, so if you need vision into fog then it can help to stick them out there. I think it's flying vision, so you can see over trees with it. Sprout also counts as trees, so you can turn them into minions and even use them to set up shackle shots with Windrunner.

    Prophet is only strong because of what he can do when played well. On paper most of his skills are kind of bad, and his ult means he's straight-out stealing farm from the rest of his team. If you can't make use of the gold then you're hurting the team, and he's not very useful in mid-game team fights. Most of what he can do can be done better by someone else, but a good player makes him a better hero.

    Re: Death Wards. Remember that the ward is a physical object. This is really useful in side lanes, because you can block chokes with it and really screw people over. For instance, say you're Sentinal on the bottom lane and they're trying to tower dive you. If you back into the bottom choke in the trees and put your ward in front then they won't be able to follow, forcing them to either tank your ward and the tower while they go around or back off.

    It's always the details that get people. It's why I love dota.

    Page- on
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  • ronyaronya Arrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    on Prophet I found that getting Bracers or Nulls first thing, even before shoes (unless you scored a very early kill next to the side lane shops), helps a lot with dealing with early nukes.

    Sprout seems to behave somewhat differently between Warcraft 3 and Dota2, as a warning. Also your incoming-teleport animation is a hell lot more noticeable.

    I used to put the first point in treants to scout the runes and get vision (you can raise 2×2 in fountain before you go off), but that entails missing out on more points in Teleport, and Sprout's long length hurts more at level one.

    aRkpc.gif
  • ronyaronya Arrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    edited December 2011
    A question: is it better to fire off the Wrath of Nature the moment it's cooled-down and there are enemy waves visible on the minimap, or do people hold it and wait for an opportune time? i.e., farm with WoN or try to unexpectedly cut enemy hero hitpoints?

    Not counting situations when there's obviously a 5v5 fight coming up...

    ronya on
    aRkpc.gif
  • FightTestFightTest Registered User regular
    Sometimes I'll seemingly randomly get a strong look of disapproval on my face, but it's not random and actually caused by someone somewhere picking AM or NP.

    MOBA DOTA.
  • ronyaronya Arrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    not too long ago people in dota1 pubs only played Furion if they got him in -random! What changed o_O

    aRkpc.gif
  • hushhush Registered User regular
    ronya wrote:
    not too long ago people in dota1 pubs only played Furion if they got him in -random! What changed o_O

    i'm not sure anything has changed for the people who have played dota before :P - gotta let all the newbies get him out of their system!

    This is the future. This is what we built. This is what we wanted. It must have been. Because we all had the fucking choice, didn't we? It is only our money that allows commercial culture to flower. If we didn't want to live like this, we could have changed it at any time, by not fucking paying for it.

    So let's celebrate by all going out and buying the same burger. -transmet
  • Vi MonksVi Monks Registered User regular
    @Page-

    That's pretty much exactly how I try to play him. Don't always succeed, of course, but that's the kind of stuff I go for. Though I hadn't considered how spamming his ult denies farm for my own team. I'll have to pay more attention to that next time I play him.

    I was also thinking of trying out Mirana, but I'm worried she might not be very effective in pubs, since it seems like her ult requires a fair bit of teamwork. Is she a strong pub pick despite that?

  • FightTestFightTest Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    Yes all the newbies. NP is a newbie hero. That's why in the TR vs Na'vi grand finals this past weekend he was banned first wave the first game, banned first wave the second game, and first picked by the winning team in the third game. Boy he sure is shitty and anyone who thinks he's good must be a big newbie getting it out of their system.

    On top of that at the SMM tourney a couple/few weeks ago (dota1) out of 19 games he was banned 9 and picked 5. That's only behind AM who was pick/banned in 17/19 and CM who was pick/banned in 16.

    Please spare us future "newbie" commentary.

    ps - if you hadn't read the thread and only replied to that one singular post then your comment is out of context. Regardless AM and NP are two of the easiest heroes to stomp the shit out of people with because they're ridiculously good to return to context.

    FightTest on
    MOBA DOTA.
  • hushhush Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    FightTest wrote:
    Yes all the newbies. NP is a newbie hero. That's why in the TR vs Na'vi grand finals this past weekend he was banned first wave the first game, banned first wave the second game, and first picked by the winning team in the third game. Boy he sure is shitty and anyone who thinks he's good must be a big newbie getting it out of their system.

    On top of that at the SMM tourney a couple/few weeks ago (dota1) out of 19 games he was banned 9 and picked 5. That's only behind AM who was pick/banned in 17/19 and CM who was pick/banned in 16.

    Please spare us future "newbie" commentary.

    ps - if you hadn't read the thread and only replied to that one singular post then your comment is out of context. Regardless AM and NP are two of the easiest heroes to stomp the shit out of people with because they're ridiculously good to return to context.

    Sorry - i don't think my comment came off the right way - it was meant as more of a support for him, as he feels the way he's always felt to me in dota (always fun, potentially always powerful) - my bad on a poor joke.

    I'll tell you what I'll be interested in seeing though, is where/when the meta changes, and how in tune with all those various stats icefrog & co. are. Do you think he will be more willing to make hero/item tweaks and balances in this game compared to dota1? Do you think the tourney community would be down with a game that shifted more often? Or are those changes in the hands of the players for the most part? Sorry for the vague questioning but your post(s) and Page's posts just really got me thinking about who is really in control of that sort of game shift.

    (edit for spacing)

    hush on
    This is the future. This is what we built. This is what we wanted. It must have been. Because we all had the fucking choice, didn't we? It is only our money that allows commercial culture to flower. If we didn't want to live like this, we could have changed it at any time, by not fucking paying for it.

    So let's celebrate by all going out and buying the same burger. -transmet
  • DroolDrool Science! AustinRegistered User regular
    Valve is notoriously slow to make new games, but they are quite quick to patch and make changes. Valve thrives on iteration. Look where TF2 is now, or where it was only a year after its release, same with L4D2.

    That and the increase in resources makes me think Icefrog will probably be able to make changes quite often once DOTA2 is done, and that will help keep the community interested which means they can sell more hats so there is financial incentive as well.

  • Page-Page- Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    Icefrog gets direct input from tourney players, and the game is updated often. Usually every couple of months for a new full version, more often if for balance tweaks between them, and less often if there's a major version to work on or he's busy with other stuff.

    Tourney players don't mind at all. After months of playing the same version they're usually eager to try new stuff. The metagame gets figured out and everyone wants something fresh. It's been that way for years; dota is updated regularly, and not simply for balance reasons. There's always a desire to keep things fresh and to try new things. They don't all work, but they're almost always appreciated. Sometimes there's something new that they don't all like, such as smoke of deceit, but they all adapt to it.

    There is no idea that dota will end once it reaches a certain point. It's never been like that. The game has been evolving for longer than most other games have existed. It's not like, say, Quake, where it reaches a point of ideal symmetry and the only thing people change are client-side options and maps.

    I wouldn't be surprised if things slowed down and became less drastic once dota 2 is out. A new market, a bunch of new players. Valve will probably want things to be stabler so that it doesn't scare people off.

    Can't wait till dota 2 is legit. And that will only happen when there's a wodota2.

    Page- on
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  • FightTestFightTest Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    Would really like to see different char select modes for matchmaking. AP is getting tired real fast.

    Also just had a horrible game as Tide (hard to lane vs weaver/warlock with tide/alch, got no farm at all, qq) but we won because they had a disconnect. Feels bad man but meh I'll take the win. Especially when our AM/Dazzle lane fed real hard. 0/9/2 Dazzle too good.

    FightTest on
    MOBA DOTA.
  • Grey PaladinGrey Paladin Registered User regular
    I am not sure how on-topic this is, but as there's no thread for the first DotA..

    Any tips for playing Clinkz? he seems to be so brutally simple that I have no real idea what to do with him. Do I just farm for the entire game and burst people down? Do I constantly gank with the windwalk? How is his ulti best used?

    "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes to make it possible." - T.E. Lawrence
  • hushhush Registered User regular
    What I'm sort of interested and am definitely willing to cop to is that i didn't follow dota tourney stuff once i stopped playing, but I think you said in a previous post that it's been about 6 months since the last version of dota1 came out. In that time, have you seen any noticeable swings in the comps/bans/top picks that have come about without there being a developer update to the game?

    This is the future. This is what we built. This is what we wanted. It must have been. Because we all had the fucking choice, didn't we? It is only our money that allows commercial culture to flower. If we didn't want to live like this, we could have changed it at any time, by not fucking paying for it.

    So let's celebrate by all going out and buying the same burger. -transmet
  • SenshiSenshi BALLING OUT OF CONTROL WavefrontRegistered User regular
    I'm gonna have a fucking field day when Clinkz is released in Dota 2

    a field day

  • ShabootyShabooty Registered User regular
    god I love broodmother

  • reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    She'll probably eat you afterwards.

  • Vi MonksVi Monks Registered User regular
    I'm kind of curious about the design philosophy behind balancing Dota. People are saying that Nature's Prophet and Anti-mage are overpowered. I'm way too new to comment on one side or the other on those points, but has Icefrog ever said whether imbalances like that are by design? Is Dota balanced around picks and counter-picks and overall team synergy, letting certain imbalanced heroes be imbalanced because they can be countered, either by a single counter-pick or overall composition? Or does Icefrog actually attempt to ensure each hero is as balanced as possible?

  • Custom SpecialCustom Special I know I am, I'm sure I am, I'm Sounders 'til I die!Registered User regular
    First game with Dazzle, lots of fun.
    Power Treads, Wand, Soul Ring, Dagon 3...am I supporting right?

    XBL: F4ll0utBP | STEAM | PSN : CustomSpecial | Bnet: F4ll0ut#1636
  • l_gl_g Registered User regular
    It isn't usually the case that a given hero is only countered by one hero, though it is often the case that certain heroes enjoy enormous matchup advantages over certain other heroes. That is desired and intentional.
    It is the case that sometimes some heroes, especially new/recently remade/buffed ones, are a little too strong in a general sense, and that is not desired and not always intentional.

    Still, sometimes it's not even a case of a single hero being too strong as it is a composition/lineup being too strong. Does anybody remember the pure hell of the Nerubian Assassin + Kotl lane, when NA did 120 flat mana burn with his level 2 mana burn ability? Alone it's annoying, but when the kotl is feeding him mana so that he can constantly keep the enemy lane at 0 mana, it's infuriating.

    Cole's Law: "Thinly sliced cabbage."
  • übergeekübergeek Sector 2814Registered User regular
    All I know is if I see an AM, I pick Doom and then ult him. He dies.

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  • SagaxusSagaxus Registered User regular
    rushing aghanim's on Doom is basically the funniest dotes thing I've seen in a while

    he just sauntered on up to a squishy hero and ulted them, then casually walked away. Some seconds later he gets a kill. It was like poetry.

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  • nealcmnealcm Alvarian AlvarianRegistered User regular
    nothing like a witch doctor maledict kill

    sometimes after casting it he says "wait for it... wait for it..."

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  • nealcmnealcm Alvarian AlvarianRegistered User regular
    god maledict is such a cool dot

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  • P10P10 An Idiot With Low IQ Registered User regular
    I wonder when Eredar will make his way into DotA2 with his super Maledict.

    Shameful pursuits and utterly stupid opinions
  • Page-Page- Registered User regular
    I am not sure how on-topic this is, but as there's no thread for the first DotA..

    Any tips for playing Clinkz? he seems to be so brutally simple that I have no real idea what to do with him. Do I just farm for the entire game and burst people down? Do I constantly gank with the windwalk? How is his ulti best used?

    Clinkz is mostly for ganking now. Just look at his skills. What most Clinkz will do is super rush an orchid, then immediately start ganking and never stop. He's too fragile for team fights and his animation is horrible, but with his ult and an orchid he can pretty much destroy any hero 1 on 1 if he catches them out of position.

    You go into the woods and eat a creep to get the damage boost, then wind walk in and get nice and close. Slap down the orchid to silence them, then strafe with fire arrows until they die. They can't fight back because of the silence, and his damage is really good with strafe + ult + fire arrows. Keep doing that and they'll have a hard time recovering. In a straight-up fight, though, he's kind of fragile, which makes it tough for him to produce in team fights as a carry.

    Anyway, dota's balance is more of a metagame thing. Icefrog doesn't seem to balance each hero with the intention of them all being "balanced." (There are only 2 or 3 really balanced heroes, like potm and Windrunner) That's not even possible because it's a team game and they'd still have to fit into lineups. It's a complaint a lot of people have with LoL, where most heroes seem to be variations on the same theme. It's impossible to make every hero fit into every lineup, especially with bans taken into account.

    No, he seems to take a bigger picture approach, which you can see if you look through the changes in each version. What he's been working toward is a more active game. More ganks, more things for the supports to do, more pushing, less farming. There are occasionally sweeping changes, like the melee buffs that were put in because melee heroes are usually less picked in competitive play, but more often it's simply adding items and buffing heroes that make the game more active and exciting.

    He also remakes farm heroes more often that others. The old Razor was a boring super ricer. His skills were chain lighting, move speed aura (with regen, I think), and a steroid skill that made him attack faster but take more damage. His ult was just a passive static field that did a bit of damage to anyone near him. All he could do was farm, and that's all anyone did with him. So Icefrog remade him into an interesting mid-game anti-carry with some cool skills. He remade Storm Spirit into a fun ganking semi-carry. And so on.

    As for the current version and its metagame. Well, remember that 6.72 came out in late April, and since then we've had 6.72b-f. Each had some balance changes and adjustments, and 6.72f wasn't always the stable map. It takes a while for competitive teams to warm up to the new version, and even after they have to take into account balance tweaks that only seem obvious in retrospect. So, yeah, there have been a lot of metagame shifts throughout all of 6.72. The top picks now aren't the same as the ones that were top picks 8 months ago, and some heroes like Lycan have been all over the map, from top pick to meh and then back to top pick again. When 6.72 first hit Spectre was still on top, and Morphling was still up there as well. Now they don't get picked nearly as often. When it came out Prophet was rarely picked, and AM was only picked for CM-AM dual lanes.

    It's like, when 6.72 came out everyone looked at the new options support heroes had, and then teams started pushing more often and earlier, and once there was success with that everyone else had to adapt. You couldn't pick Morphling or Medusa because they needed at least 45 minutes of solid farm to really produce. Tri-lanes changed, supports got more levels, or roamed more often. We started to see dual supports jungling to keep their farm up while roaming, and then more jungling in general.

    It's really hard to find 1 or 2 or 3 things that make the difference. Everything changes all of the time.

    Competitive Gaming and Writing Blog Updated in October: "Song (and Story) of the Day"
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  • nealcmnealcm Alvarian AlvarianRegistered User regular
    edited December 2011
    i was looking at eredar the other day, too

    i like shadow poison too but i think maledict might be a little cooler in my eyes

    i just fucking love dots

    how many of you fuckers are gonna make a MORE DOTS joke

    nealcm on
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  • Page-Page- Registered User regular
    If you're really interested in finding out more about the metagame then you can read through this guide. It covers a lot of the basics about picking and isn't very complicated.

    Competitive Gaming and Writing Blog Updated in October: "Song (and Story) of the Day"
    Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
    stream
  • nealcmnealcm Alvarian AlvarianRegistered User regular
    oh my god i forgot shadow poison spreads

    a dot that spreads to those it touches is my dream

    19ZUtIw.png
  • Page-Page- Registered User regular
    I got an abandoned game because it wouldn't let me reconnect. :<

    Competitive Gaming and Writing Blog Updated in October: "Song (and Story) of the Day"
    Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
    stream
  • nealcmnealcm Alvarian AlvarianRegistered User regular
    there is literally nothing better in this world than witch doctor

    OH LOOK AT IT GOH

    wait for it... WAIT FOR IT...

    19ZUtIw.png
  • TheManTrapTheManTrap Registered User regular
    I finally got a key! And I have to say, even the games I've played with complete idiots, this game is ridiculously fun.

  • DroolDrool Science! AustinRegistered User regular
    Tidehunter is the best. It's science. When Kunkka kills him he yells KUNKKAAAAAA!!! and he has all the fish puns.

  • CreamstoutCreamstout What you think I program for, to push a fuckin' quad-core? Registered User regular
    Drool wrote:
    Tidehunter is the best. It's science. When Kunkka kills him he yells KUNKKAAAAAA!!! and he has all the fish puns.

    Fresh is good, unless we're talking water!

    Levi is my favorite too so far, didn't love him in DotA1, but his voice and graphics are so cool I can't help but pick him. Death Prophet's voice work is pretty sweet too.

  • DroolDrool Science! AustinRegistered User regular
    Sand King has the smoothest voice it makes his character much more interesting even though I'm not wild about his model.

  • valiancevaliance Registered User regular
    500-600 GPM is insane to me. but I'm coming from a HoN context. is that normal for dota?

  • DroolDrool Science! AustinRegistered User regular
    edited December 2011
    That's a carry doing really well. So yeah it's probably normal for pros, but in most of my games they usually get 300-400, or a lot less because they are awful. I really wish there was a tutorial on picking a basic team comp.

    I lock in CM to try her out and my team locks in all hard carries or semi carries who need a lot of farm.

    Drool on
  • ronyaronya Arrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    Pubs picking hard carries when it makes no goddamn sense to do so is a Thing in DotA, no idea about LoL or HoN.

    aRkpc.gif
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