While poorer mileage is expected during the break-in period, and I've observed mileage to be poorer when it's cold, 9Km/L seems pretty low if your expected mixed driving mileage is 13.7Km/L (which is what the 3rd number here means: "12.35 / 15.87 / 13.7 KM per L"). On the Canada website for Toyota I see it's advertising 100Km/L (manual). What's it say on the window sticker?
Did they print out a receipt indicating what they tested and why they were testing it (e.g. customer reports poor mileage and odd engine sounds)?
A work colleague of mine had a similar issue with a new Hyundai (poor economy only, no reports of odd engine noises), and they seriously gave him the run around (we're flying in an engineer to test it out, he test-drove it, nothing wrong, yup 23 mpg is fine, eventhough you're mainly highway [advertised MPG is 40 highway] gotta lead-foot don't ya?). He lucked out in that Ford gave him an excellent trade-in value towards buying a Fusion, and he just got out of it.
Is there a lemon law in Canada, cause right now I'd document all my visits to the dealer. After every tank of gas that exhibited the problems I'd take it in to the dealer and complain of the same problem. I'd bring in documentation indicating it's supposed to be getting better mileage, though the other symptoms sound more worrying. I believe in the states it's a lemon if the dealer fails to fix the same problem after 3 attempts (I'm paraphrasing).
Full disclosure-I worked at Toyota in the past, but I'm not a mechanic.
These guys are screwing you over, and what's worse is that their techs are incompetent. You should really escalate this to the general manager, because he should know that his people are awful and are driving away business.
Bring up the reduced MPG. That's not a pie in the sky wish, that's a promise of performance. If you're not getting that MPG, you're not getting a functional product. Do not pay for that.
Tell him about the tech's comments about truck v. matrix MPG, and the check engine light, and then promptly tell him that you suspect they are either incompetent or dishonest.
Do not pay for a lemon. There's no reason to do that.
Steam and CFN: Enexemander
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FiggyFighter of the night manChampion of the sunRegistered Userregular
Alright, I'm going to call the other Toyota dealer in town and see what they have to say. I'll also look into lemon law a little bit more.
I took photos of the mileage/gas level before and after I filled it tonight too.
On the discrepancy for the car odometer initially is in your paperwork somewhere I bet. In the US, they are allow to have the odometer be 100 mi greater than the current reading, or whatever you agreed to in writing.
Why do I know? I just bought a car, and that it what I have written in my paperwork. You are also terrifying me.
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Blake TDo you have enemies then?Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life.Registered Userregular
Figgy is it possible to have another quick spin in the demo model with the salesman and then have him sit in the seat with yours?
Figgy is it possible to have another quick spin in the demo model with the salesman and then have him sit in the seat with yours?
That's what we are going to do after I measure the tank I just filled tonight. He also said he could have one of the techs drive mine, then a model, to see the difference. However, I don't have much faith in the competence of their techs. They didn't install my Bluetooth properly. Then they scratched my radio while fixing it. Now, they're bold-faced lying about what are clearly major issues.
I make no exaggeration in saying one of them said to me, "There can't be anything wrong with the car because the check engine light would come on."
I found out later, when I went to pick up my car, that he was the service manager. I spoke to the salesman for a bit as well about the issue further, specifically the claim that winter weather is the cause. The current weather is about 5C, and the MIN/MAX from Nov 4 - Dec 4 has been -1/19. This is hardly winter weather, and if winter weather truly does reduce fuel efficiency by a significant degree, I'm going to be getting 350km/tank come January/February. (When it's minus double digits)
The salesman then claimed that I should make sure I'm letting the car "warm up" when I start it. He said if I just start it and go, the car will use more fuel. I understand the idea that a colder car is going to require more power to move (thicker oil, etc), but I've always thought letting the car warm up for longer than 10-15 seconds is a waste of gas and bad on the environment. And again, the temperatures have been barely jacket weather anyway.
I'll see what they say tomorrow at the other dealer. I'll see if they will let me take a Matrix out for a spin too so I can judge the power difference. The power difference could be "as intended" I guess, but if so I'm really disappointed in the car. Any sort of incline and the sound of the engine almost drowns out the radio.
You should let the car warm up until the temperature gauge's needle is actually on the meter (this is assuming it's either analog or an analog display of a digital meter). Generally one to five minutes, depending on just how cold it is, but not usually much more than that.
If your windows aren't fogged at all, you're probably good to go after about a minute.
You can also contact Toyota directly to help solve this issue.
A few years ago I had a brand spanking new Honda CRV. Upon getting it home, I noted rust all over the muffler. This seemed odd for a new car. The dealer we bought it from said it was "normal to happen during shipment" or some other canned line. I, wanting a NEW car, called Honda. The Honda representative I got put together some paperwork and called the dealership directly. It was at this point the dealership became very cooperative. Surprise, surprise. They replaced everything with wear on it after getting pressure from Honda.
Fast forward to today, I find out that dealership lost it's rights to sell Honda's. Scuttlebutt is that they received too many complaints over the years and Honda got fed up with it.
Moral of the story? Try taking this to Toyota directly. You might have a harder time, since your issue isn't quite as visible as mine, but the gas millage numbers should be VERY telling and get some attention.
Edit: I forgot to mention, I tried "pushing" the car in neutral down my driveway (slight incline) before I went to the dealership. I didn't have someone around to help, so I just sat in it with the door open and pushed with my foot. It wasn't easy, but any stretch. Given that my driveway is an incline, shouldn't it have just rolled right down on its own?
Yes, the car should've just rolled more or less on it's own, so something is wrong.
If you were able to push it, though, it's not likely that the brakes are dragging (as some other usrs said, it's usually very, very obvious when there is a brake problem. It smells, the car makes incredibly violent stops, etc).
What I don't get is that everyone here is agreeing with me in that this is far below normal economy and yet everyone at the dealer is just shrugging their shoulders like I'm nuts.
When I got in the car again the fuel light was on. It was on 1/8th tank when I brought it there. How can they possibly have used that much fuel on a test run?
Should I do something else?
The dealership mechanics shook you down. That pretty much invalidates their input at this point.
See if you can swap for a different car, or get your money back to buy a different car at a different dealership (and if you care to do so, let the dealership manager know that their customer service prompted you to do this). If they won't let you, contact consumer protection, like chrishallett suggests.
Now the lack of power thing might just be that you're used to standard shifting. Automatics generally tend to let the RPM go higher than most manual drivers are used to. They've calculated it out over a power curve and when you hit the right spot in the curve, its supposed to shift.
To see if its a lemon problem is easy - go to the next dealership and drive the same car. Test drive the same model and take it out on the highway. If its the exact same performance - then that's just how the car drives.
Over-consumption of fuel - there are so many little things that can contribute to this that I'd demand a Toyota engineer to diagnose it. The standard wrench and grease monkey isn't going to track something like that down..it'll take actual diagnostic work. Standard garage guys can't do shit unless they can plug in a sensor, get a reading, and follow directions based on a pre-established error code. Hence the "Maybe its the floor mats" excuse.
This sounds a lot like a broken parking brake to me. One of my really good friends bought a used Chevy truck (i think a 2500hd) and it was in great shape. He gets a couple of tanks into it and can't figure out why he is getting an average of 8 mpg when he should be getting mid to high teens. He drives like an old nanny so it wasn't his driving. He keeps it for a month then just sells it and the next people that have it take it in for the APK (Netherlands car inspection) and they find that the parking brake was engaged even though it was totally down and there was no light on the dash.
I used this truck multiple times to haul some junk to the recycle sort center and it never felt like it was breaking hard and there was never a smell of the brakes working overtime. I know that smell, take my JCW to the Nurburgring all the time and brakes start fading and stinking faster then you think.
I'm not saying it is this, but if you do end up taking your car to a different dealership ( I recommend this whole heartedly) maybe say something that you think your parking brake might be slightly stuck.
Oh and just so you don't get to down on Toyota after this experience, I bought a new Tacoma back in 06 and put 500 miles on it before my wife and I drove from Iowa to Georgia. We made it to Illinois and had to fill up on gas. Middle of winter in the Midwest at some out of nowhere gas station. I fill up and for some reason I keep the receipt. I never do this.
I got a quarter mile away from the gas station and the truck starts chugging then just dies. I try starting, nothing. This is fucking Christmas Eve so I know that I'm screwed. I called the 1800 # for Toyota from their manual and they get a hold of a manager for a dealer 45 min from where I am. He sends a tow truck and when we get there he has 3 mechanics start working on my truck.
They work till about 8pm and then call me at a hotel to tell me that I got a tank full of fucking water instead of gas. They have to pull the gas tank and flush the fuel lines. They did all this Christmas morning and I was on the road by 6pm that day.
Oh and they gave me a bottle of the water/gas mix for evidence to use against the gas station. I guess 6 people got bad tanks, new gas station and the tank installer put some valve on backwards that let ground water into the tank. So I got reimbursed for the out of pocket repairs on the truck.
I will buy Toyota again whenever I get back to the states.
" I am a warrior, so that my son may be a merchant, so that his son may be a poet.”
― John Quincy Adams
I missed the "won't roll down a hill" bit. I think I'd call Toyota before the other dealer at this point. With the brakes off and transmission not engaged (in neutral) the thing should roll freely, especially down an incline.
You should let the car warm up until the temperature gauge's needle is actually on the meter (this is assuming it's either analog or an analog display of a digital meter). Generally one to five minutes, depending on just how cold it is, but not usually much more than that.
If your windows aren't fogged at all, you're probably good to go after about a minute.
Yeah but there won't be this much of a difference.
And Figgy, dealers are really hit or miss. You ask any random smattering of people here or that you know and they'll tell you to avoid dealers. Me? I love my dealer, $12 oil changes, and they run deals all the time, and they know their shit.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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FiggyFighter of the night manChampion of the sunRegistered Userregular
edited December 2011
Called the other Toyota dealership and left a message with the GM who just called me back. He said that definitely sounds like very poor economy for the car, but he said he doesn't know much about them mechanically and spoke to his service manager and called me back. He said the service manager pretty much said the same thing the other one did: colder weather lowers economy and before 5000km, there's going to be a break-in period. The GM agreed with me that cold weather shouldn't be an issue, since through the month of Nov we've seen mostly temperatures in the teens.
He suggested I keep an accurate log of the KM per tank, including dates, weather, etc. and see if it improves or decreases. He said they'd be happy to take a look, but there probably won't be anything to show at this point.
I also mentioned the possibility of the car being a lemon to the GM and he said unfortunately there aren't the same lemon laws here as there are in the states, and I'm looking at mostly warranty repairs for these problems. He said I could bring it into any Toyota dealer and they'd check anything out if I have a problem, but I'm going to hear the same explanation until I can show that after the break-in it's not improving (or even getting worse). If there is a drastic change as the weather gets colder, I'm going to be seeing low 400, high 300KM a tank pretty soon (first snowfall today) so that should be pretty telling if there is an issue. I feel like I'm pissing money away on gas.
So I'm going to keep an accurate log and see what happens. I'd like to find someone else with a new 2011 Matrix to see what kind of economy they're getting, though. I'll also likely stop by a dealer some point this week and take another Matrix for a spin to compare the power difference.
My wife took the car to work this morning (a 42KM round trip) so it will be interesting to see where the gauge is at. My last tank seemed to go 150-200KM before it hit the 3/4 mark and then shot straight down for the rest of the tank before my eyes as I drove it over a couple days. We'll see.
And Figgy, dealers are really hit or miss. You ask any random smattering of people here or that you know and they'll tell you to avoid dealers. Me? I love my dealer, $12 oil changes, and they run deals all the time, and they know their shit.
Tell me about it!
Aside:
My wife's 2006 Mazda3 was having some issues a few weeks back. Needed new front struts, brakes, and rear trail bushings. The latter was covered under the extended warranty (which is up next August), so I took it to the purchasing dealership the next town over to have that done (because the deductible is halved that way). They replaced it, told me I needed the rest, I thanked them, went on my way. I brought it to a small mechanic I've dealt with before who does solid work for much less than the rest and won't fuck you around. He replaced the front pads (not rotors) and put in struts/mounts. The car then felt very rumbly on the highway and the whole front end shook over bumps. Brought it to another dealer to check out, who told me that engine mount #3 was leaking and needed to be replaced, but I should also replace the front rotors and that the front struts that were replaced were used. Didn't know that, so I brought it to another mechanic for the rotors, and then back to the purchasing dealer again and asked them simply to replace engine mount #3, which was covered under warranty.
I sat in their waiting room for 2 hours when the tech came to me and said that he diagnosed the car, engine mount #3 needed to be replaced, and that the front struts were used. I told him I knew that already, and I had told them exactly what to fix when I brought it in. He said he'd have to charge me the deductible + $100 for the "diagnosis." That was a fun argument, after wasting 2 hours for them to tell me what I already knew and try to charge me for it. Eventually, I was able to just pay the $50 deduct, have the mount replaced, and drive away. I brought it back to the small mechanic again who seemed surprised I didn't realize he was using used parts, and then replaced them with new Monroe struts and did a wheel balance for $100 total, which all tolled was still 1/3rd of what any other dealer/mechanic wanted to charge for new struts to begin with (1300+ !!)
The car still rumbles very slightly at high speeds, but the mechanic told me the front driver's side rim (winter tires/rims) is 75g off and is probably the issue there. Drives far, far better though. Is that evne a thing? Rim is "off?" Like, bent or defective or something?
16 mpg is shitty economy on any car made after somewhere around 1980 , regardless of a break in period. That's "okay well if you won't fix it or refund my money, I take you to court because of you reneging on your contract with me with guaranteed mileage."
Keep on keeping on with your record keeping. Because it'll be handy to hand it over to a lawyer at some point if it gets that far. Stay with the new dealership, they seem a bit more friendly all around.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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FiggyFighter of the night manChampion of the sunRegistered Userregular
16 mpg is shitty economy on any car made after somewhere around 1980 , regardless of a break in period. That's "okay well if you won't fix it or refund my money, I take you to court because of you reneging on your contract with me with guaranteed mileage."
Keep on keeping on with your record keeping. Because it'll be handy to hand it over to a lawyer at some point if it gets that far. Stay with the new dealership, they seem a bit more friendly all around.
The problem is there really isn't any "guaranteed mileage" as far as I know. The quoted mileage is just an estimate:
* These estimates are based on the Government of Canada's approved criteria and testing methods. The actual fuel consumption of this vehicle may vary. Refer to the Government of Canada publication EnerGuide Fuel Consumption Guide. MPG stated as Miles per Imperial Gallon.
But yes, getting 65% of that estimate is definitely a concern. My wife just got back from work and commented on noticing the lack of acceleration as well. We'll see.
Well. A lawyer will probably disagree that while yes, it's an estimate, and there is no guarantee, someone can't sell you a car estimated at 30 mpg highway that gets 2 mpg and throws their hands up and goes "well it's not guaranteed!" So you should probably ask one.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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L Ron HowardThe duckMinnesotaRegistered Userregular
Have you thought of finding a forum for your car, Figgy?
I can bet you can find a lot more specifics there than you can here. I don't know much about the car or any Toyota specific communities to really suggest one, but that would be my recommendation.
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FiggyFighter of the night manChampion of the sunRegistered Userregular
Have you thought of finding a forum for your car, Figgy?
I can bet you can find a lot more specifics there than you can here. I don't know much about the car or any Toyota specific communities to really suggest one, but that would be my recommendation.
Great idea! There's actually a matrixowners.com that I was checking out while looking for deck kits. Thanks!
Also, have you actually measured the fuel mileage or are you just eyeballing your gauge? I see you are starting to above, but missed if you were earlier. May just be a bias you have. Or your car could be ready to explode. 50/50.
Yeah, you can't go by the gauge, those things are pretty inaccurate. Fill up the tank, set your mileage tracker, then when you fill up next see how much gas you add.
Yeah, you can't go by the gauge, those things are pretty inaccurate. Fill up the tank, set your mileage tracker, then when you fill up next see how much gas you add.
I was just going to suggest this too. Gauges can be pretty shitty, so any time you're trying to calculate the mileage it should be done using only the odometer and the amount of gas added to your car as indicated by the gas pump. The nice thing is this should lend itself nicely to tracking as well, which you should also do. So you have and odometer reading before every fill up, and you keep every gas receipt, and you have a nice proven record of gas mileage.
"The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it" - Dr Horrible
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FiggyFighter of the night manChampion of the sunRegistered Userregular
I'll keep actual fuel added as part of my records.
He said the service manager pretty much said the same thing the other one did: colder weather lowers economy and before 5000km, there's going to be a break-in period.
This is pretty ludicrous. A break-in period doesn't involve you needing to mash the accelerator right to the floor in order to achieve highway cruising speed, or involve the type of mileage you're getting.
Can you walk away from the purchase? Just get a refund and buy a different car?
The car still rumbles very slightly at high speeds, but the mechanic told me the front driver's side rim (winter tires/rims) is 75g off and is probably the issue there. Drives far, far better though. Is that evne a thing? Rim is "off?" Like, bent or defective or something?
This is actually entirely possible. Wheels are generally not completely uniform in weight and tires most definitely are not. Generally when you get new tires they use a machine to balance them by adding weight to certain places on the inside of the wheel. It's possible that one or more of the weights that were added got knocked loose and fell off while you were driving it.
The car still rumbles very slightly at high speeds, but the mechanic told me the front driver's side rim (winter tires/rims) is 75g off and is probably the issue there. Drives far, far better though. Is that evne a thing? Rim is "off?" Like, bent or defective or something?
This is actually entirely possible. Wheels are generally not completely uniform in weight and tires most definitely are not. Generally when you get new tires they use a machine to balance them by adding weight to certain places on the inside of the wheel. It's possible that one or more of the weights that were added got knocked loose and fell off while you were driving it.
Yeah, really easy to bend a rim, especially if you have lots of potholes/train tracks in the area.
The rim doesn't explain the lack power in acceleration.
And Figgy, why are you not asking the awesome sounding mechanic in your aside story? Because awesome mechanic could give you some evidence towards the dealership's incompetence. Even if it costs money, it is costing you so much time.
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FiggyFighter of the night manChampion of the sunRegistered Userregular
The rim doesn't explain the lack power in acceleration.
And Figgy, why are you not asking the awesome sounding mechanic in your aside story? Because awesome mechanic could give you some evidence towards the dealership's incompetence. Even if it costs money, it is costing you so much time.
He's runs a very small shop, and I'm fairly certain he can't do warranty work. I could certainly bring the car to him and have him look it over, but I don't know that he could run the same kind of electronic tests the dealer shop could. He doesn't do alignments or E-tests, for example.
And the rumble/rim imbalance is related to our other car, the Mazda3. Is it possible the struts went early because of driving on a bent rim for so long? My wife actually did run over a curb in a parking lot a couple years back. The lot wasn't plowed at all and it was a curb in the middle of the lot. That's probably how the rim got damaged, and I just assumed that was why the struts were worn.
I also have a tiny ding on the edge of the Matrix's wheel, from a piece of debris clipping it on the highway. It's mostly a scuff on the wheel cover. I really doubt that is causing anything, as it's so very minor.
You should really still call Toyota. Not the dealership, find a number from the website to contact them in your area. Each major area has a representative, I believe. If nothing else, it will put a record of this problem into the system, and you can point back to it if you have major issues down the line.
Man, start dealing with Toyota directly RIGHT AWAY. The GM is giving you the run around - you have been getting the run around this entire time!
I know nothing about cars, but I can tell you right now: when you switch an automatic car into neutral, it's not supposed to feel like you just downshifted. If anything, switching to neutral from my experience has allowed me to drift longer.
Your car is fucked. At this point, it doesn't matter whether it's something minor or something major - you've been jerked around hard.
The sales guy has no actual power - the service manager isn't going to do anything - the GM isn't going to want to give you your money back.
Look forward to hearing about the resolution you come to - it better be a new car.
Edit: your small-time mechanic probably diagnoses this problem easily. You don't need fancy electronic gauges to tell if something is wrong.
Where in Canada are you? Major city?
Dibs on
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EffefWho said your opinion mattered, Jones?Registered Userregular
The salesman then claimed that I should make sure I'm letting the car "warm up" when I start it. He said if I just start it and go, the car will use more fuel.
16 mpg is shitty economy on any car made after somewhere around 1980 , regardless of a break in period. That's "okay well if you won't fix it or refund my money, I take you to court because of you reneging on your contract with me with guaranteed mileage."
Keep on keeping on with your record keeping. Because it'll be handy to hand it over to a lawyer at some point if it gets that far. Stay with the new dealership, they seem a bit more friendly all around.
The problem is there really isn't any "guaranteed mileage" as far as I know. The quoted mileage is just an estimate:
* These estimates are based on the Government of Canada's approved criteria and testing methods. The actual fuel consumption of this vehicle may vary. Refer to the Government of Canada publication EnerGuide Fuel Consumption Guide. MPG stated as Miles per Imperial Gallon.
But yes, getting 65% of that estimate is definitely a concern. My wife just got back from work and commented on noticing the lack of acceleration as well. We'll see.
16mp/g is insanely low for a small car, I drove a 2009 Matrix as a parts delivery car for a while and it did nothing but scuttle around town and managed to pull 22-24mp/g, heck my old beater of a truck can pull 16mp/g in my normal driving and it's a 1993 F150 with 365,000 miles (enough to literally go to the Moon).
For a new smaller car to pull mileage that horrible it must have something critically wrong with it's driveline.
It's either that or Leprechauns are replacing your gasoline with mud..
The salesman then claimed that I should make sure I'm letting the car "warm up" when I start it. He said if I just start it and go, the car will use more fuel.
bullshit
Yeah, it's quite the line. I live in one of the colder areas of the United States, near Lake Superior, and I never saw a fuel dip that significant in the winter.
You should let the car warm up until the temperature gauge's needle is actually on the meter (this is assuming it's either analog or an analog display of a digital meter). Generally one to five minutes, depending on just how cold it is, but not usually much more than that.
If your windows aren't fogged at all, you're probably good to go after about a minute.
It will actually cause a small performance drop. Not anything near that much though. It can also fuck something heavily with your engine it because of expanding/contracting metal.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I've also generally notice a drop in fuel economy when they switch to the winter blend of gas. I usually lose a mile or two per gallon during the winter, which brings it down significantly now that almost all the stations around here are selling E15 exclusively.
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Did they print out a receipt indicating what they tested and why they were testing it (e.g. customer reports poor mileage and odd engine sounds)?
A work colleague of mine had a similar issue with a new Hyundai (poor economy only, no reports of odd engine noises), and they seriously gave him the run around (we're flying in an engineer to test it out, he test-drove it, nothing wrong, yup 23 mpg is fine, eventhough you're mainly highway [advertised MPG is 40 highway] gotta lead-foot don't ya?). He lucked out in that Ford gave him an excellent trade-in value towards buying a Fusion, and he just got out of it.
Is there a lemon law in Canada, cause right now I'd document all my visits to the dealer. After every tank of gas that exhibited the problems I'd take it in to the dealer and complain of the same problem. I'd bring in documentation indicating it's supposed to be getting better mileage, though the other symptoms sound more worrying. I believe in the states it's a lemon if the dealer fails to fix the same problem after 3 attempts (I'm paraphrasing).
You tell them everything you've told us. Maybe another dealer will have a competent service department.
These guys are screwing you over, and what's worse is that their techs are incompetent. You should really escalate this to the general manager, because he should know that his people are awful and are driving away business.
Bring up the reduced MPG. That's not a pie in the sky wish, that's a promise of performance. If you're not getting that MPG, you're not getting a functional product. Do not pay for that.
Tell him about the tech's comments about truck v. matrix MPG, and the check engine light, and then promptly tell him that you suspect they are either incompetent or dishonest.
Do not pay for a lemon. There's no reason to do that.
I took photos of the mileage/gas level before and after I filled it tonight too.
Why do I know? I just bought a car, and that it what I have written in my paperwork. You are also terrifying me.
Satans..... hints.....
That's what we are going to do after I measure the tank I just filled tonight. He also said he could have one of the techs drive mine, then a model, to see the difference. However, I don't have much faith in the competence of their techs. They didn't install my Bluetooth properly. Then they scratched my radio while fixing it. Now, they're bold-faced lying about what are clearly major issues.
I make no exaggeration in saying one of them said to me, "There can't be anything wrong with the car because the check engine light would come on."
I found out later, when I went to pick up my car, that he was the service manager. I spoke to the salesman for a bit as well about the issue further, specifically the claim that winter weather is the cause. The current weather is about 5C, and the MIN/MAX from Nov 4 - Dec 4 has been -1/19. This is hardly winter weather, and if winter weather truly does reduce fuel efficiency by a significant degree, I'm going to be getting 350km/tank come January/February. (When it's minus double digits)
The salesman then claimed that I should make sure I'm letting the car "warm up" when I start it. He said if I just start it and go, the car will use more fuel. I understand the idea that a colder car is going to require more power to move (thicker oil, etc), but I've always thought letting the car warm up for longer than 10-15 seconds is a waste of gas and bad on the environment. And again, the temperatures have been barely jacket weather anyway.
I'll see what they say tomorrow at the other dealer. I'll see if they will let me take a Matrix out for a spin too so I can judge the power difference. The power difference could be "as intended" I guess, but if so I'm really disappointed in the car. Any sort of incline and the sound of the engine almost drowns out the radio.
If your windows aren't fogged at all, you're probably good to go after about a minute.
A few years ago I had a brand spanking new Honda CRV. Upon getting it home, I noted rust all over the muffler. This seemed odd for a new car. The dealer we bought it from said it was "normal to happen during shipment" or some other canned line. I, wanting a NEW car, called Honda. The Honda representative I got put together some paperwork and called the dealership directly. It was at this point the dealership became very cooperative. Surprise, surprise. They replaced everything with wear on it after getting pressure from Honda.
Fast forward to today, I find out that dealership lost it's rights to sell Honda's. Scuttlebutt is that they received too many complaints over the years and Honda got fed up with it.
Moral of the story? Try taking this to Toyota directly. You might have a harder time, since your issue isn't quite as visible as mine, but the gas millage numbers should be VERY telling and get some attention.
Warframe: TheBaconDwarf
Warframe: TheBaconDwarf
Yes, the car should've just rolled more or less on it's own, so something is wrong.
If you were able to push it, though, it's not likely that the brakes are dragging (as some other usrs said, it's usually very, very obvious when there is a brake problem. It smells, the car makes incredibly violent stops, etc).
The dealership mechanics shook you down. That pretty much invalidates their input at this point.
See if you can swap for a different car, or get your money back to buy a different car at a different dealership (and if you care to do so, let the dealership manager know that their customer service prompted you to do this). If they won't let you, contact consumer protection, like chrishallett suggests.
1. Lack of Power
2. Overconsumption of fuel.
Now the lack of power thing might just be that you're used to standard shifting. Automatics generally tend to let the RPM go higher than most manual drivers are used to. They've calculated it out over a power curve and when you hit the right spot in the curve, its supposed to shift.
To see if its a lemon problem is easy - go to the next dealership and drive the same car. Test drive the same model and take it out on the highway. If its the exact same performance - then that's just how the car drives.
Over-consumption of fuel - there are so many little things that can contribute to this that I'd demand a Toyota engineer to diagnose it. The standard wrench and grease monkey isn't going to track something like that down..it'll take actual diagnostic work. Standard garage guys can't do shit unless they can plug in a sensor, get a reading, and follow directions based on a pre-established error code. Hence the "Maybe its the floor mats" excuse.
I used this truck multiple times to haul some junk to the recycle sort center and it never felt like it was breaking hard and there was never a smell of the brakes working overtime. I know that smell, take my JCW to the Nurburgring all the time and brakes start fading and stinking faster then you think.
I'm not saying it is this, but if you do end up taking your car to a different dealership ( I recommend this whole heartedly) maybe say something that you think your parking brake might be slightly stuck.
Oh and just so you don't get to down on Toyota after this experience, I bought a new Tacoma back in 06 and put 500 miles on it before my wife and I drove from Iowa to Georgia. We made it to Illinois and had to fill up on gas. Middle of winter in the Midwest at some out of nowhere gas station. I fill up and for some reason I keep the receipt. I never do this.
I got a quarter mile away from the gas station and the truck starts chugging then just dies. I try starting, nothing. This is fucking Christmas Eve so I know that I'm screwed. I called the 1800 # for Toyota from their manual and they get a hold of a manager for a dealer 45 min from where I am. He sends a tow truck and when we get there he has 3 mechanics start working on my truck.
They work till about 8pm and then call me at a hotel to tell me that I got a tank full of fucking water instead of gas. They have to pull the gas tank and flush the fuel lines. They did all this Christmas morning and I was on the road by 6pm that day.
Oh and they gave me a bottle of the water/gas mix for evidence to use against the gas station. I guess 6 people got bad tanks, new gas station and the tank installer put some valve on backwards that let ground water into the tank. So I got reimbursed for the out of pocket repairs on the truck.
I will buy Toyota again whenever I get back to the states.
― John Quincy Adams
Yeah but there won't be this much of a difference.
And Figgy, dealers are really hit or miss. You ask any random smattering of people here or that you know and they'll tell you to avoid dealers. Me? I love my dealer, $12 oil changes, and they run deals all the time, and they know their shit.
He suggested I keep an accurate log of the KM per tank, including dates, weather, etc. and see if it improves or decreases. He said they'd be happy to take a look, but there probably won't be anything to show at this point.
I also mentioned the possibility of the car being a lemon to the GM and he said unfortunately there aren't the same lemon laws here as there are in the states, and I'm looking at mostly warranty repairs for these problems. He said I could bring it into any Toyota dealer and they'd check anything out if I have a problem, but I'm going to hear the same explanation until I can show that after the break-in it's not improving (or even getting worse). If there is a drastic change as the weather gets colder, I'm going to be seeing low 400, high 300KM a tank pretty soon (first snowfall today) so that should be pretty telling if there is an issue. I feel like I'm pissing money away on gas.
So I'm going to keep an accurate log and see what happens. I'd like to find someone else with a new 2011 Matrix to see what kind of economy they're getting, though. I'll also likely stop by a dealer some point this week and take another Matrix for a spin to compare the power difference.
My wife took the car to work this morning (a 42KM round trip) so it will be interesting to see where the gauge is at. My last tank seemed to go 150-200KM before it hit the 3/4 mark and then shot straight down for the rest of the tank before my eyes as I drove it over a couple days. We'll see.
Tell me about it!
Aside:
I sat in their waiting room for 2 hours when the tech came to me and said that he diagnosed the car, engine mount #3 needed to be replaced, and that the front struts were used. I told him I knew that already, and I had told them exactly what to fix when I brought it in. He said he'd have to charge me the deductible + $100 for the "diagnosis." That was a fun argument, after wasting 2 hours for them to tell me what I already knew and try to charge me for it. Eventually, I was able to just pay the $50 deduct, have the mount replaced, and drive away. I brought it back to the small mechanic again who seemed surprised I didn't realize he was using used parts, and then replaced them with new Monroe struts and did a wheel balance for $100 total, which all tolled was still 1/3rd of what any other dealer/mechanic wanted to charge for new struts to begin with (1300+ !!)
The car still rumbles very slightly at high speeds, but the mechanic told me the front driver's side rim (winter tires/rims) is 75g off and is probably the issue there. Drives far, far better though. Is that evne a thing? Rim is "off?" Like, bent or defective or something?
Keep on keeping on with your record keeping. Because it'll be handy to hand it over to a lawyer at some point if it gets that far. Stay with the new dealership, they seem a bit more friendly all around.
The problem is there really isn't any "guaranteed mileage" as far as I know. The quoted mileage is just an estimate:
But yes, getting 65% of that estimate is definitely a concern. My wife just got back from work and commented on noticing the lack of acceleration as well. We'll see.
I can bet you can find a lot more specifics there than you can here. I don't know much about the car or any Toyota specific communities to really suggest one, but that would be my recommendation.
Great idea! There's actually a matrixowners.com that I was checking out while looking for deck kits. Thanks!
I was just going to suggest this too. Gauges can be pretty shitty, so any time you're trying to calculate the mileage it should be done using only the odometer and the amount of gas added to your car as indicated by the gas pump. The nice thing is this should lend itself nicely to tracking as well, which you should also do. So you have and odometer reading before every fill up, and you keep every gas receipt, and you have a nice proven record of gas mileage.
This is pretty ludicrous. A break-in period doesn't involve you needing to mash the accelerator right to the floor in order to achieve highway cruising speed, or involve the type of mileage you're getting.
Can you walk away from the purchase? Just get a refund and buy a different car?
This is actually entirely possible. Wheels are generally not completely uniform in weight and tires most definitely are not. Generally when you get new tires they use a machine to balance them by adding weight to certain places on the inside of the wheel. It's possible that one or more of the weights that were added got knocked loose and fell off while you were driving it.
Yeah, really easy to bend a rim, especially if you have lots of potholes/train tracks in the area.
And Figgy, why are you not asking the awesome sounding mechanic in your aside story? Because awesome mechanic could give you some evidence towards the dealership's incompetence. Even if it costs money, it is costing you so much time.
He's runs a very small shop, and I'm fairly certain he can't do warranty work. I could certainly bring the car to him and have him look it over, but I don't know that he could run the same kind of electronic tests the dealer shop could. He doesn't do alignments or E-tests, for example.
And the rumble/rim imbalance is related to our other car, the Mazda3. Is it possible the struts went early because of driving on a bent rim for so long? My wife actually did run over a curb in a parking lot a couple years back. The lot wasn't plowed at all and it was a curb in the middle of the lot. That's probably how the rim got damaged, and I just assumed that was why the struts were worn.
I also have a tiny ding on the edge of the Matrix's wheel, from a piece of debris clipping it on the highway. It's mostly a scuff on the wheel cover. I really doubt that is causing anything, as it's so very minor.
Warframe: TheBaconDwarf
I know nothing about cars, but I can tell you right now: when you switch an automatic car into neutral, it's not supposed to feel like you just downshifted. If anything, switching to neutral from my experience has allowed me to drift longer.
Your car is fucked. At this point, it doesn't matter whether it's something minor or something major - you've been jerked around hard.
The sales guy has no actual power - the service manager isn't going to do anything - the GM isn't going to want to give you your money back.
Look forward to hearing about the resolution you come to - it better be a new car.
Edit: your small-time mechanic probably diagnoses this problem easily. You don't need fancy electronic gauges to tell if something is wrong.
Where in Canada are you? Major city?
bullshit
16mp/g is insanely low for a small car, I drove a 2009 Matrix as a parts delivery car for a while and it did nothing but scuttle around town and managed to pull 22-24mp/g, heck my old beater of a truck can pull 16mp/g in my normal driving and it's a 1993 F150 with 365,000 miles (enough to literally go to the Moon).
For a new smaller car to pull mileage that horrible it must have something critically wrong with it's driveline.
It's either that or Leprechauns are replacing your gasoline with mud..
Yeah, it's quite the line. I live in one of the colder areas of the United States, near Lake Superior, and I never saw a fuel dip that significant in the winter.
Warframe: TheBaconDwarf
this is news to me