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[Pathfinder Online] It's a Pathfinder MMO

13

Posts

  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    JediNight wrote: »
    Oh, dear...

    Remember how the developers said they had an awesome plan to quickly develop and fund PO?
    Well...
    you're their plan.
    Kickstarter.

    I wasn't sure about the Kickstarter thing, but I think it was blatantly obvious from all the detailed design documents they've released before even writing any code, that they were shopping around for venture capital....

    True, true.

    This Kickstarter isn't even for the game, it appears to just be a Kickstarter for a tech demo that they can shop around.

    I am very intrigued by this game and would very much like to see it made, but I'm not sure I want to back this.

    Axen on
  • JediNightJediNight Registered User regular
    Axen wrote: »
    This Kickstarter isn't even for the game, it appears to just be a Kickstarter for a tech demo that they can shop around.

    I am very intrigued by this game and would very much like to see it made, but I'm not sure I want to back this.

    Really? Okay now that is just stretching way too far. How can they not get ANY VC for this? Not even enough for a tech demo? Seems a little much to pay in money for a demo that might not even guarantee the game even gets developed at all....

  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    Apparently that kickstarter was prematurely announced. The company forgot to set it as private while they were still lining things up, someone found it and suddenly it was everywhere.

    What is this I don't even.
  • CorehealerCorehealer The Apothecary The softer edge of the universe.Registered User regular
    Back a Pathfinder MMO? Yes.

    Back a Pathfinder MMO tech demo so they can show it to Joe Investor or some big publishing house and have them go "lol sandboxes" and not get anywhere? Nope.

    488W936.png
  • NeadenNeaden Registered User regular
    Gonna be honest, this whole thing sounds exactly like a whole bunch of MMOs that were in development in the early 00's that either never came out or came out with 5% of the promised features and flopped.

  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    Well a lot of what they want to do in Pathfinder has been done in Mortal Online. Though that game didn't turn out so hot, but that doesn't mean the ideas aren't sound. Niche, to be sure, but not impossible.

    However, some of the other things they want to do does seem a bit more. . . ambitious.

    Sadly, this one may just stay a dream on paper.

  • Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous Blame this on the misfortune of your birth. New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    They fixed this a few hours ago, but I like that in keeping with paizo's business plan of republishing content that WOTC originally made, the original photo of Rich Baker was hosted on images.wizards.com.

    Der Waffle Mous on
    Steam PSN: DerWaffleMous Origin: DerWaffleMous Bnet: DerWaffle#1682
  • ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    Corehealer wrote: »
    Back a Pathfinder MMO? Yes.

    Back a Pathfinder MMO tech demo so they can show it to Joe Investor or some big publishing house and have them go "lol sandboxes" and not get anywhere? Nope.

    This, exactly.

    omgbfz5lzi1s.png
    Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
    The Disappearance of Inigo Sharpe: Tomas à Dunsanin
  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    Axen wrote: »
    Well a lot of what they want to do in Pathfinder has been done in Mortal Online. Though that game didn't turn out so hot, but that doesn't mean the ideas aren't sound. Niche, to be sure, but not impossible.

    However, some of the other things they want to do does seem a bit more. . . ambitious.

    Sadly, this one may just stay a dream on paper.

    Sure, a lot of this could be accomplished. It has to be accomplished by people with a strong business model and the ability to secure financial backers, though. Three ex-MMO industry members and a kickstarter doesn't really qualify.

    What is this I don't even.
  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Axen wrote: »
    Well a lot of what they want to do in Pathfinder has been done in Mortal Online. Though that game didn't turn out so hot, but that doesn't mean the ideas aren't sound. Niche, to be sure, but not impossible.

    However, some of the other things they want to do does seem a bit more. . . ambitious.

    Sadly, this one may just stay a dream on paper.

    Sure, a lot of this could be accomplished. It has to be accomplished by people with a strong business model and the ability to secure financial backers, though. Three ex-MMO industry members and a kickstarter doesn't really qualify.

    While I certainly agree with your sentiment, to play Devil's Advocate for a minute, the Mortal Online guys were a handful of people who, as near as I can tell, had never even made a game before let alone an MMO. Granted, it shows in the final product.

    These three guys at the very least have experience and connections in the industry.

    But yeah, more and more I am starting to firmly believe this project isn't even going to leave paper.

  • SquiddyBiscuitSquiddyBiscuit Registered User regular
    They put up the actual kickstarter today, and seem to have gathered all the funds already - so it seems like their plan works:

    http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1675907842/pathfinder-online-technology-demo

    steam_sig.png
  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    Huh, well look at that. A bit surprised, but I've seen weirder things get funded so I shouldn't be too surprised.

  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    So, $80k... This is where I'm not getting it.

    Guy #1: Chief Marketing Officer from CCP

    Lady #2: Tabletop Game Designer/MBA

    Guy #3: Techie, but not a hugely experience game coder. He lists 15 years of experience which includes fluid dynamics (??), medical system design (??), document management systems (?!?), desktop environments, mobile devices and games. He had some experience at City of X design, but it sounds like he's mostly a process guy with some experience in system architecture.

    Guy #4: Writer.

    What does this leave them needing? Almost all of their technical experience. And they plan to produce a demo with $80k. As far as I can tell, that is enough money to hire one mid-level experience guy and fund him for development for a year. It's not a lot of money when you take various expenses into account, so they're hoping to have one more guy.

    I just don't see it. What can 1.5 people produce in terms of a tech demo for something as complex as an MMO?

    What is this I don't even.
  • CorehealerCorehealer The Apothecary The softer edge of the universe.Registered User regular
    Hence my earlier comment.

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  • NeadenNeaden Registered User regular
    Note that I the writer is not actually involved with the game at all as far as I can tell, just in writing one of the KS rewards.

  • TheKoolEagleTheKoolEagle Registered User regular
    yeah unfortunately any and all hope of this game being fun, let alone playable has gone out the window with a $50,000 kickstarter tech demo.

    uNMAGLm.png Mon-Fri 8:30 PM CST - 11:30 PM CST
  • JediNightJediNight Registered User regular
    Even a tech demo needs some basic art assets usually, doesn't it? I guess we'll wait and see. It sounds like a lot of the game will be procedurally generated. So the guy thats good with process design may be okay with that. And if the tech demo gets them actual VC -- that's when they would hire the artists and other game designers I assume.

  • Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous Blame this on the misfortune of your birth. New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    Really, guys, its Ryan Dancey. Everything he touches turns to shit.

    Steam PSN: DerWaffleMous Origin: DerWaffleMous Bnet: DerWaffle#1682
  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    Really, guys, its Ryan Dancey. Everything he touches turns to shit.

    http://shutupinternet.wordpress.com/2011/02/16/ryan-dancey-is-destroying-gaming/

    What is this I don't even.
  • CorehealerCorehealer The Apothecary The softer edge of the universe.Registered User regular
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Really, guys, its Ryan Dancey. Everything he touches turns to shit.

    http://shutupinternet.wordpress.com/2011/02/16/ryan-dancey-is-destroying-gaming/

    That's a good point... hmm.

    Ya, I'm going to go ahead and say maybe we don't want this game getting made. If it even makes it that far.

    488W936.png
  • CadmusCadmus Registered User regular
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    So, $80k... This is where I'm not getting it.

    Guy #3: Techie, but not a hugely experience game coder. He lists 15 years of experience which includes fluid dynamics (??), medical system design (??), document management systems (?!?), desktop environments, mobile devices and games. He had some experience at City of X design, but it sounds like he's mostly a process guy with some experience in system architecture.

    Techie actually refers to people that get a hard on for the latest cell phone. This guy is a very experienced programmer and programming is programming, game programming is not a special snowflake. On top of that, medical system design is some pretty heavy shit. If you screw anything up, people die. Designing the code architecture for a game is pretty trivial in comparison.
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    What does this leave them needing? Almost all of their technical experience. And they plan to produce a demo with $80k. As far as I can tell, that is enough money to hire one mid-level experience guy and fund him for development for a year. It's not a lot of money when you take various expenses into account, so they're hoping to have one more guy.

    I just don't see it. What can 1.5 people produce in terms of a tech demo for something as complex as an MMO?

    They plan to have the tech demo ready by October and they are only looking for $50,000. That 50k is likely to pay someone to make art assets for them and for licensing of the various third party technology that they intend to use. A tech demo is just a proof of concept, little more than "Look, we plan to use all these technologies to make our game and here is our proof that they can all work together". It's absolutely nothing playable, just something to show investors so they can see what you intend to make. They aren't writing a game engine from scratch so this really isn't unrealistic.

    The game they describe in the blogs sounds pretty damn awesome. I'd love to see it actually happen so I have no problem pitching in a small amount for the kickstarter. It's not like I'm expecting to get anything in return for it, that's kind of the point of kickstarter. It's an investment, not a purchase. Put in your $5 (or less even) and if the investment pans out, there will be an awesome game that you'd love to play on the market in a couple years.

  • SquiddyBiscuitSquiddyBiscuit Registered User regular
    With the kickstarter funded, Goblinworks turn their focus to more game mechanics:
    The Ties That Bind

    How do two (or more) anonymous players in an MMO make an agreement that is meaningful to all parties, and that creates a system where people will fulfill their commitments even without real-world social pressure or legal consequences?

    The solution we have evolved is to have a variety of contracts tailored to various purposes. Characters can enter into contracts specifying various aspects of their deals, the rewards for success, and the penalties for failure.

    You can think of these contracts as a questing system hidden in plain sight. In most MMOs, an implicit contract is formed when you accept a quest—if you do the thing that the questgiver requires, you'll receive the offered reward. The trust that you must extend is to the development team: they would be unlikely to have the quest giver cheat you; if they did, nobody would accept those quests, and word would quickly spread that the quests are scams. Other than occasional bugs, NPCs who give quests in MMOs always stand behind their offers.

    In Pathfinder Online, the dynamic shifts from NPCs giving quests to players interacting with each other to advance their own agendas. However, without the good will of the developers standing behind the deal, odds are that many people would renege on a deal, or in some way scam or steal from the other parties. Unlike NPC quests which have virtually no security (but very high trust), PC-to-PC deals have to have strong security to overcome very low trust. The metagame solution to this problem is to simply say that such schemes are violations of the code of conduct for the game and will not be tolerated. Rapid and effective enforcement of such a policy will substantially reduce the number of people who try it.

    Basically, instead of collecting bear arses on behalf of an NPC, you will do so on behalf of other players who may use said bear arses to build a keep or a boat. Similar to the contract system in EVE by the looks of it, but it has so many more possibilities in a fantasy setting.

    steam_sig.png
  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    This is a game that I can't expect will actually become a thing, however I so dearly hope it does.

  • ComahawkComahawk Registered User regular
    Axen wrote: »
    This is a game that I can't expect will actually become a thing, however I so dearly hope it does.

    My thoughts exactly.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • CadmusCadmus Registered User regular
    Axen wrote: »
    This is a game that I can't expect will actually become a thing, however I so dearly hope it does.

    I'm more worried about all the things that sound awesome, turning out to be very tedious and boring :/

  • SquiddyBiscuitSquiddyBiscuit Registered User regular
    Okay, apparently they added some bonuses for contributors at the 75 and 100 dollar level if they reached 250,000 dollars (which they did). I think they might reach as high as 400,000 USD by the time this kickstarter actually ends.

    Quite a loyal fanbase I say.

    New blog update.

    steam_sig.png
  • tedrick79tedrick79 Registered User regular
    Why does this seem like this is going the way of Dawn and/or Wish? A lot of people want it to be true, but it turns out to be little more than a dream. A couple million gamers seem to be looking for the spiritual successor to Ultima Online. Mortal Online seemed to be covered in reds. Too many wolves not enough rabbits. Not very fun when you chop a tree and everyone with 300 yards hears you a choppin and comes a slicing on you with your mostly useless wood axe equipped. You could go a whole week and not see a red in UO unless you just haunted Despise/Shame. I am all for sandboxes - but all the sand boxes are filled with kids who ONLY want to knock over your little sandcastle these days. Not enough doozers and a whole lot of fraggles not just eating your stuff, but tearing it down just to watch it burn and dance maniacally in the firelight. These people I believe make up half of the EvE online population too which makes the game riddled with griefing sociopaths. The same 5% who caused fellucca/trammel split of UO. Because the other 95% were tired of being literally wiped over and over again out by the 5% of sociopaths who killed you again just to grief. They didn't need your stuff, or even want it.

    The problem with sandboxes is that they attract more wolves than rabbits, and a world filled with just wolves is not really fun - for everyone else.

    JaysonFour
  • LorekLorek Registered User regular
    Looks like an entirely new Kickstarter for the game itself has come and almost gone now... 600k of a million dollars this time.
    Not sure if it's ok to post the link or not, but it's easy enough to find with search on the Kickstarter page.

    steam_sig.png
  • EmberquickEmberquick Master of Dungeons Deep UndergroundRegistered User regular
    I backed it for $35. If it happens and comes close to their original vision of the game, I know I'll want to try it out anyway. If it doesn't happen, then my credit card never gets charged. Oh, well.

    Besides, I like playing PnP Pathfinder. Feels more like D&D to me. So our gaming group will recreate our characters online and have some fun regardless of whether or not we decide to stick with it past a month or two.

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  • EchildaEchilda Registered User regular
    I went for the guild level. Hopefully by the time the game has come out I can find 5 friends who want to play still!

  • ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    This met it's kickstarter goal of $1M today, with several hours left to spare.

    omgbfz5lzi1s.png
    Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
    The Disappearance of Inigo Sharpe: Tomas à Dunsanin
  • EmberquickEmberquick Master of Dungeons Deep UndergroundRegistered User regular
    Yes! Really glad this made it.

    Here's hoping the final result is fun to play and lives up to their design philosophy!

    steam_sig.png
  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    Well, this was one of those Kickstarters that I loved the idea of, but just couldn't bring myself to back. Here's hoping it turns out well. Barring any "this game is so bad it'll give you brain-AIDs" talk I'll probably pick it up at launch.

    Corehealer
  • JediNightJediNight Registered User regular
    Are they really expecting to design the entire game on $1M? Even for a sandbox game, since it's an MMO that seems ... ambitious. Or will this be Minecraft-style where the rest of the funding will then come from early adopters?

  • lowlylowlycooklowlylowlycook Registered User regular
    JediNight wrote: »
    Are they really expecting to design the entire game on $1M? Even for a sandbox game, since it's an MMO that seems ... ambitious. Or will this be Minecraft-style where the rest of the funding will then come from early adopters?

    They used the first kickstarter to put together a tech demo which they used to secure outside funding. This kickstarter was to get their MMO done faster.

    Frankly people that backed this latest drive should feel bad. Kickstarter is simply not the place for something as expensive and difficult to develop as an MMO.

    steam_sig.png
    (Please do not gift. My game bank is already full.)
    DarkewolfeScosglenCorehealergtrmpshrykeAnon the Felon
  • JediNightJediNight Registered User regular
    Well I wish them luck. At least you know they're being realistic about designing a game for a niche market with the long-tail in mind.

    I just wonder if they're not going to be passed over in the next few years by larger industry players. I get the feeling that sandbox hybrids are the next MMO wave, seeing as WoW-style theme park (especially fantasy) are oversaturated. EQ Next is talking about sandbox elements, and it's highly likely Titan from Blizzard will also feature them to keep people subscribed between major content patches.

  • ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    JediNight wrote: »
    Are they really expecting to design the entire game on $1M? Even for a sandbox game, since it's an MMO that seems ... ambitious. Or will this be Minecraft-style where the rest of the funding will then come from early adopters?

    They used the first kickstarter to put together a tech demo which they used to secure outside funding. This kickstarter was to get their MMO done faster.

    Frankly people that backed this latest drive should feel bad. Kickstarter is simply not the place for something as expensive and difficult to develop as an MMO.

    The way I see it, I bought a pretty interesting PDF pack (including a pretty interesting-sounding megadungeon) and a dozen minis for $100.

    Any MMO action I get out of the deal is pretty much a bonus to me; I didn't kickstart their first effort, however.

    omgbfz5lzi1s.png
    Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
    The Disappearance of Inigo Sharpe: Tomas à Dunsanin
  • BuddiesBuddies Registered User regular
    Had dinner with a friend last night who was trying to get me to come back to GW2 and WvWvW again. He was also talking about ESO and how his new guild is excited about trying to get into the beta in that. Last I looked into ESO it sounded like another Theme-Park MMO with it's "This area is for PvP! And this area is for Dungeons! And this area is for quests!" But decided, hey, I'll sign up for the beta and read a little more about what they are doing with the game maybe it's changed. NOPE, still going to be a theme-park. BUT. In researching about ESO, I stumbled upon this.... idea of a game.

    I hope it's not Vaporware. The first 2 months will be a ton of fun. If they can somehow design it so that helping people has as much incentive as much as (really more than) killing them on sight then it could be a great game to play for a long time. They need to make it so that people really think before attacking someone.

    If not, then yea. First 2 months will be a blast and then be boiled down to a small community of people that 50% play the game mostly solo and KoS anyone they don't recognize immediately and 50% that KoS no matter what.

  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    As I mentioned before. If (and man does it seem like a big 'If') the game is actually made and released I will buy it at launch. I have zero problem giving money to MMO devs who try new things (well, outside of Kickstarter I suppose).

    If the game turns out to be my brand of Fun then great. If not, then I hope it'd at least have a number of neat ideas that other devs could take and build upon.

    That being said, I make no illusions that this won't be a super niche game, I just hope it'll be a finely executed niche game that scratches all the right itches for me.

    Corehealer
  • CorehealerCorehealer The Apothecary The softer edge of the universe.Registered User regular
    Sometimes MMOs have to be niche to actually be fun past a few months and cater to a specific audience that wants that, and hence become financially successful/sustainable. The crux is they need to find enough people interested in said experience and convince them to get onboard with your interpretation and execution.

    Pathfinder might be able to do it. Lots of people want an alternative to 3 month MMOs. Whether it will be successful and long term and able to compete with a genre increasingly aware of this consumer impulse is another story.

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