it isn't "the role of males to choke off their sexual urges". men are allowed and encouraged to have sexual urges, obviously.
the point is to say that it's not alright for men to act as though they can't control their actions, to blame rape on the way women dress, to say that a woman can't dress any way she pleases without provoking some kind of sexual action - to displace the responsibility for how a man acts onto the woman because they are being "provocative."
I totally agree its not all right for men to act as though they can't control their actions. I also think that its not accurate for women to act as though their actions cannot contribute to a weakening of that control.
If that weakens your control, that's a failing on YOUR PART. Stop making excuses for your shortcomings.
it isn't "the role of males to choke off their sexual urges". men are allowed and encouraged to have sexual urges, obviously.
the point is to say that it's not alright for men to act as though they can't control their actions, to blame rape on the way women dress, to say that a woman can't dress any way she pleases without provoking some kind of sexual action - to displace the responsibility for how a man acts onto the woman because they are being "provocative."
I totally agree its not all right for men to act as though they can't control their actions. I also think that its not accurate for women to act as though their actions cannot contribute to a weakening of that control.
The idea that a man's control over his own actions can be "weakened" in any meaningful way by the way a woman dresses is exactly the problem. Men are not animals consumed by lust. It is always within a person's power to shut it down and not take sexual action. What the woman is wearing or doing or saying does not excuse a man's sexual aggression (or vice versa!) by a single iota. A man who does sexually harass or assault a woman after being "inflamed" is not doing so because they have an otherwise healthy attitude towards sex but are driven to act that way by the woman, they are doing so because they have pre-existing, unhealthy attitudes about women and sex (attitudes which are unfortunately quite widespread).
I can't find 'The Rapist File' available to check my interpretation about the type of convicts that were interviewed (according to the Amazon synopsis, 15 inmates were interviewed. That's all I can find out).
Does anyone know of an online library service that has it available?
People are perfectly capable of manipulating others. Women can be pressured into having sex by males that front tabs or buy hotel rooms or whatever. Is that a failing on their part?
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
it isn't "the role of males to choke off their sexual urges". men are allowed and encouraged to have sexual urges, obviously.
the point is to say that it's not alright for men to act as though they can't control their actions, to blame rape on the way women dress, to say that a woman can't dress any way she pleases without provoking some kind of sexual action - to displace the responsibility for how a man acts onto the woman because they are being "provocative."
I totally agree its not all right for men to act as though they can't control their actions. I also think that its not accurate for women to act as though their actions cannot contribute to a weakening of that control.
Actually, I'm a man and I don't think women contribute to weakening that control. I think you're making a lot of terrible assumptions here to begin with. I take offense, as a man, to the idea that someone can turn me bestial and lose control because of what they are wearing. Maybe you are like this, but that's your problem and it is 100% your responsibility to rise above it.
Switch: SW-7690-2320-9238Steam/PSN/Xbox: Drezdar
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Apothe0sisHave you ever questioned the nature of your reality?Registered Userregular
@Gosprey: What precisely do you mean by "choke their sexual urges"? Because on the face of it, they either aren't being asked to do so, if they are it is by people who have unreasonable and non-mainstream conceptions of healthy sexuality, or the urges of which you speak are not normal.
No matter which way we go there it seems like you're jousting with windmills and enflaming ill will with the more radically feminist members of the board.
It's amazing that you think Men raping women is equivalent to Women wearing attractive clothing
When did I say that? In fact, didn't you just quote me saying the opposite?
I'm fairly certain I quoted you saying that if a man has to control his sexual urges women shouldn't be able to dress sexually because that makes it harder for men control themselves.
it isn't "the role of males to choke off their sexual urges". men are allowed and encouraged to have sexual urges, obviously.
the point is to say that it's not alright for men to act as though they can't control their actions, to blame rape on the way women dress, to say that a woman can't dress any way she pleases without provoking some kind of sexual action - to displace the responsibility for how a man acts onto the woman because they are being "provocative."
I totally agree its not all right for men to act as though they can't control their actions. I also think that its not accurate for women to act as though their actions cannot contribute to a weakening of that control.
If that weakens your control, that's a failing on YOUR PART. Stop making excuses for your shortcomings.
When the fuck did I say I was talking about me?
"You" in a general sense then.
Any person who thinks a woman's choice of clothing "weakens control" in a man has some serious shortcomings, one of which is misunderstanding men.
Actually, I'm a man and I don't think women contribute to weakening that control. I think you're making a lot of terrible assumptions here to begin with. I take offense, as a man, to the idea that someone can turn me bestial and lose control because of what they are wearing.
Sure, the majority of men in a Western culture will not be rapists. I know that personally a woman could wander around in bodypaint and buy me drinks all night and I'm not going to rape her (though really, as if thats going to happen).
But there are men who are not 100% in control of their lives and urges, in every society. Its not useful to pretend that they don't exist, and its not useful to pretend that there are not circumstances that can push them to the edge.
it isn't "the role of males to choke off their sexual urges". men are allowed and encouraged to have sexual urges, obviously.
the point is to say that it's not alright for men to act as though they can't control their actions, to blame rape on the way women dress, to say that a woman can't dress any way she pleases without provoking some kind of sexual action - to displace the responsibility for how a man acts onto the woman because they are being "provocative."
I totally agree its not all right for men to act as though they can't control their actions. I also think that its not accurate for women to act as though their actions cannot contribute to a weakening of that control.
If that weakens your control, that's a failing on YOUR PART. Stop making excuses for your shortcomings.
When the fuck did I say I was talking about me?
"You" in a general sense then.
Any person who thinks a woman's choice of clothing "weakens control" in a man has some serious shortcomings, one of which is misunderstanding men.
In short, if you're a man who loses control at the sight of a short skirt, you're a pisspoor example of one.
Actually, I'm a man and I don't think women contribute to weakening that control. I think you're making a lot of terrible assumptions here to begin with. I take offense, as a man, to the idea that someone can turn me bestial and lose control because of what they are wearing.
Sure, the majority of men in a Western culture will not be rapists. I know that personally a woman could wander around in bodypaint and buy me drinks all night and I'm not going to rape her (though really, as if thats going to happen).
But there are men who are not 100% in control of their lives and urges, in every society. Its not useful to pretend that they don't exist, and its not useful to pretend that there are not circumstances that can push them to the edge.
if a man can be "pushed to the edge" of raping someone by the way they dress or act, then the problem has nothing to do with the woman - the problem is the man's own issues.
Actually, I'm a man and I don't think women contribute to weakening that control. I think you're making a lot of terrible assumptions here to begin with. I take offense, as a man, to the idea that someone can turn me bestial and lose control because of what they are wearing.
Sure, the majority of men in a Western culture will not be rapists. I know that personally a woman could wander around in bodypaint and buy me drinks all night and I'm not going to rape her (though really, as if thats going to happen).
But there are men who are not 100% in control of their lives and urges, in every society. Its not useful to pretend that they don't exist, and its not useful to pretend that there are not circumstances that can push them to the edge.
Which none of us are doing. We're not saying that they don't exist, we're saying that their control issues are solely their own, and that the blame for them should be placed solely on their shoulders.
None if this addresses the concern that people with low self control exist and do bad things with mild trigger prompts
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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Podlyyou unzipped me! it's all coming back! i don't like it!Registered Userregular
But there are men who are not 100% in control of their lives and urges, in every society. Its not useful to pretend that they don't exist, and its not useful to pretend that there are not circumstances that can push them to the edge.
Some species of large dogs (St Bernards seem to be particularly susceptible to this condition, despite their normally docile behaviour) become suddenly violent if they see some combinations of primary colours.
Since we can't ignore that this is a real problem among a common domestic pet, should we start blaming colours when it comes to unprovoked dog attacks and insist on a monochromatic lifestyle? Or does it make much more sense to address the problem itself, rather than a possible catalyst that is otherwise not only benign, but enriching?
With Love and Courage
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Apothe0sisHave you ever questioned the nature of your reality?Registered Userregular
@Gosprey: This seems to have very little to do with controlling one's sexual urges and everything to do with living in a liberal democracy where inappropriate or otherwise unwanted contact of any kind (beyond a certain very low threshold) is assault. We have rules both legal and social about person and property.
It seems like you're asking "If poor people are being asked to choke their material urges then shouldn't less poor people not wear nikes or use iPhones?". There are more general principles at work which are inviolate.
None if this addresses the concern that people with low self control exist and do bad things with mild trigger prompts
Sure it does.
Expecting better of people and jailing them when they break the law addresses these concerns. Dispelling the culture of crap like a woman being responsible for triggering someone else's weakness by how they dress addresses these concerns.
What are you looking for here? Some kind of self help system for men who think erections justify whatever comes after?
None if this addresses the concern that people with low self control exist and do bad things with mild trigger prompts
Actually, it does. The problem isn't "they exist", it's "they've always been given excuses and outs for their conduct."
Even if you fix that mentality, it still wouldn't be a good idea for a woman to go home from a party at night without a coat. It is a contributing factor to aggravated sexual assault and is as much risky behavior as not locking your doors when you go out. It's not your fault that you got robbed, but you could have taken extra measures to prevent yourself from becoming a statistic.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
In a world where we want to prevent rape, not just punish it, is the responsibility for this entirely on the male population to self-monitor to achieve this (including a significant minority of males with serious impulse control issues), or do females have some role in preventing rape from happening?
Did you know most date rape occurs without the use of narcotics aside from alcohol? The idea of the sleazy creeper dropping roofies into someone's drink is, in essence, an urban myth (there are actual cases of it happening, but they are exceptionally rare).
Women's role in preventing rape is not raping people. Same as men.
If some people have impulse control issues they should be in some sort of therapy. We should find some way to help these people not place a burden on the victim.
In a world where we want to prevent rape, not just punish it, is the responsibility for this entirely on the male population to self-monitor to achieve this (including a significant minority of males with serious impulse control issues), or do females have some role in preventing rape from happening?
How do women prevent rape from happening? Rape is sexual assault, perpetrated by one person against another. The only way to prevent rape is to lock yourself in your home, forever. And even that might not be enough.
In a world where we want to prevent rape, not just punish it, is the responsibility for this entirely on the male population to self-monitor to achieve this (including a significant minority of males with serious impulse control issues), or do females have some role in preventing rape from happening?
How do women prevent rape from happening? Rape is sexual assault, perpetrated by one person against another. The only way to prevent rape is to lock yourself in your home, forever.
Really? So there's nothing more that can be done except one strawman extreme thing?
So a given woman being raped is 100% chance, and nothing to do with behaviour?
None if this addresses the concern that people with low self control exist and do bad things with mild trigger prompts
Actually, it does. The problem isn't "they exist", it's "they've always been given excuses and outs for their conduct."
Even if you fix that mentality, it still wouldn't be a good idea for a woman to go home from a party at night without a coat. It is a contributing factor to aggravated sexual assault and is as much risky behavior as not locking your doors when you go out. It's not your fault that you got robbed, but you could have taken extra measures to prevent yourself from becoming a statistic.
In a world where we want to prevent rape, not just punish it, is the responsibility for this entirely on the male population to self-monitor to achieve this (including a significant minority of males with serious impulse control issues), or do females have some role in preventing rape from happening?
How do women prevent rape from happening? Rape is sexual assault, perpetrated by one person against another. The only way to prevent rape is to lock yourself in your home, forever.
Really? So there's nothing more that can be done except one strawman extreme thing?
So a given woman being raped is 100% chance, and nothing to do with behaviour?
Doesn't matter. The thing that needs to be changed are the men with poor self control.
Also you know what? Its not just impulse control that make people do that.
I don't know about you but there are a lot of things stopping me from raping a girl other then foresight and control.
In a world where we want to prevent rape, not just punish it, is the responsibility for this entirely on the male population to self-monitor to achieve this (including a significant minority of males with serious impulse control issues), or do females have some role in preventing rape from happening?
Yes, it's on the males. With the emphasis made clear to each and every male through society that if they give into those dark urges, no excuses will be tolerated.
So a given woman being raped is 100% chance, and nothing to do with behaviour?
Yeah, it is. The idea that rape is a crime of sex and not power & violence, and thus rapists are men who see super-sexy tarted up young attractive women and just can't control their sexual desires is a myth.
There are certainly common-sense things women can do to (hopefully) reduce their risks of being a victim of sexual assault, but claiming they share some responsibility for the crime of sexual assault if they do or don't do certain things or do or don't behave in a certain way is very much blaming the victim.
In a world where we want to prevent rape, not just punish it, is the responsibility for this entirely on the male population to self-monitor to achieve this (including a significant minority of males with serious impulse control issues), or do females have some role in preventing rape from happening?
Crime prevention as a whole is a very complicated issue, rape included. Yes, both genders need to be involved (duh) - but I don't see a reason for victims of crime to shoulder a significant amount of the burden to prevent it from happening to themselves.
Should I be 'expected' to lock my doors at night? Or ever? In my opinion, no. Likewise, I don't think women should be 'expected' to cover themselves up if they don't wish to. Rather, I expect that people should respect my privacy and my possessions, and I expect that people should respect a woman's rights and personhood. If those expectations aren't met, the appropriate response doesn't seem to me to be, "Gee whiz, obviously you need to engage in an arms race against burglars / dress more conservatively," it's to address the issue of crime.
None if this addresses the concern that people with low self control exist and do bad things with mild trigger prompts
Actually, it does. The problem isn't "they exist", it's "they've always been given excuses and outs for their conduct."
Even if you fix that mentality, it still wouldn't be a good idea for a woman to go home from a party at night without a coat. It is a contributing factor to aggravated sexual assault and is as much risky behavior as not locking your doors when you go out. It's not your fault that you got robbed, but you could have taken extra measures to prevent yourself from becoming a statistic.
Whether true or not, this is a terrible thing to give voice to, and to make it even a secondary or tertiary concern in discussions of rape.
Can a woman prevent herself from being raped? To some degree, yes.
A woman could keep herself locked indoors. A woman could choose not to ever go to parties. Or drink. Or associate with other people. Or get into a relationship. Or join a sorority. Or all those other tired arguments about what a woman could have not done to protect herself a little better.
But the onus of raping/not raping is solely on the rapist. Someone who has raped has committed a sexual assault against someone else. They chose to do this. That a woman could have been at home knitting instead is totally irrelevant.
What you are asking is a terrible question to propagate. You call it "protection" or "self-responsibility" or whatever people often call it, but what you are doing is attempting to lay some of the burden of the assault on this person, or at the very least you are promoting a chilling effect on female behavior. That is not good.
In a world where we want to prevent rape, not just punish it, is the responsibility for this entirely on the male population to self-monitor to achieve this (including a significant minority of males with serious impulse control issues), or do females have some role in preventing rape from happening?
How do women prevent rape from happening? Rape is sexual assault, perpetrated by one person against another. The only way to prevent rape is to lock yourself in your home, forever.
Really? So there's nothing more that can be done except one strawman extreme thing?
So a given woman being raped is 100% chance, and nothing to do with behaviour?
It's entirely to so with the behavior of the rapist, yes. When have I ever argued that it was chance?
The idea that rape is a crime of sex and not power & violence, and thus rapists are men who see super-sexy tarted up young attractive women and just can't control their sexual desires is a myth.
Well, it depends. Violent rape is most often about power, yes - but there are definitely cases where sexual desire was at the forefront (Polanski's case, for example).
I think decades ago, it wasn't so much that they agreed less with rapists(so to speak) but more that sexuality in culture was less prominent and discussed, less visible.
Oh. Wonderful. So instead of this crap going on behind closed doors or during martini lunches, it is now openly discussed and shared in men's magazines and on television. All of those quotes are sickening and awful, and I would gladly trade some of the sexual awareness we have now for this crap to get out of our popular media.
Wow. So you'd rather not hear about horrible things so you can pretend it is all okay instead of knowing about and trying to change it?
And you've never changed channel when one of those charity adverts showing famine kids came on?
None if this addresses the concern that people with low self control exist and do bad things with mild trigger prompts
Actually, it does. The problem isn't "they exist", it's "they've always been given excuses and outs for their conduct."
Even if you fix that mentality, it still wouldn't be a good idea for a woman to go home from a party at night without a coat. It is a contributing factor to aggravated sexual assault and is as much risky behavior as not locking your doors when you go out. It's not your fault that you got robbed, but you could have taken extra measures to prevent yourself from becoming a statistic.
Way to blame that victim.
Blame is a useless gesture. There are steps that should be taken to help increase the probability of safety for hostile situations. Don't try to stop an armed robbery - get descriptions and information and call the police immediately afterward. Don't talk about death to a suicidal person. Don't let your children play with convicted sex offenders. Don't run with scissors. Don't trust people when they offer you a once in a lifetime opportunity to get rick quick. Don't go down a dark alley in the middle of the night wearing expensive clothing.
It is undeniable that these actions can help prevent bad things from happening to you. If you disobey this advice, you're not to blame, but you are irresponsible. The difference is meaningless because in the end these are all precautions necessary for a good measure of safety. Blame has no part in it because these bad things are bound to happen to somebody, but you can take steps to help prevent them from happening to you.
You'll have a lot more success in changing the behavior of potential victims than in changing the behavior of potential murderers and rapists, because the victims are the ones whose well being is at stake.
Paladin on
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
None if this addresses the concern that people with low self control exist and do bad things with mild trigger prompts
Actually, it does. The problem isn't "they exist", it's "they've always been given excuses and outs for their conduct."
Even if you fix that mentality, it still wouldn't be a good idea for a woman to go home from a party at night without a coat. It is a contributing factor to aggravated sexual assault and is as much risky behavior as not locking your doors when you go out. It's not your fault that you got robbed, but you could have taken extra measures to prevent yourself from becoming a statistic.
Way to blame that victim.
Blame is a useless gesture. There are steps that should be taken to help increase the probability of safety for hostile situations. Don't try to stop an armed robbery - get descriptions and information and call the police immediately afterward. Don't talk about death to a suicidal person. Don't let your children play with convicted sex offenders. Don't run with scissors. Don't trust people when they offer you a once in a lifetime opportunity to get rick quick. Don't go down a dark alley in the middle of the night wearing expensive clothing.
It is undeniable that these actions can help prevent bad things from happening to you. If you disobey this advice, you're not to blame, but you are irresponsible. The difference is meaningless because in the end these are all precautions necessary for a good measure of safety.
And in a discussion like this, where the context from the OP is the entitlement complex men feel toward women, these are terrible observations.
You are feeding into a culture that tries to chill a woman's behavior and lay the responsibility of being assaulted at her feet. In a discussion of this nature, in this context, discussing what a woman could have done to not be rapeable is unhelpful.
There are certainly common-sense things women can do to (hopefully) reduce their risks of being a victim of sexual assault, but claiming they share some responsibility for the crime of sexual assault if they do or don't do certain things or do or don't behave in a certain way is very much blaming the victim.
I'm glad that someone here actually admitted that there are some things that can be done.
Should I be 'expected' to lock my doors at night? Or ever? In my opinion, no. Likewise, I don't think women should be 'expected' to cover themselves up if they don't wish to. Rather, I expect that people should respect my privacy and my possessions, and I expect that people should respect a woman's rights and personhood. If those expectations aren't met, the appropriate response doesn't seem to me to be, "Gee whiz, obviously you need to engage in an arms race against burglars / dress more conservatively," it's to address the issue of crime.
Absolutely, but you would also recognise that in the real world, there are still going to be people who break in to homes/are inclined to rape women in certain circumstances.
It is the opposite of useful to suggest that `oh well, if you got raped, its all the dudes fault, there is absolutely nothing you could've done.' if the goal is prevention and not punishment.
Travel in groups at night, don't get plastered without friends, don't invest too much trust in people you know nothing about...these are all good bits of advice for anyone, but I suppose some people here think it is more useful to let shit go wrong by pretending we live in an ideal fairyland where 100% of men can be educated to be a specific thing.
Blame is a useless gesture. There are steps that should be taken to help increase the probability of safety for hostile situations. Don't try to stop an armed robbery - get descriptions and information and call the police immediately afterward. Don't talk about death to a suicidal person. Don't let your children play with convicted sex offenders. Don't run with scissors. Don't trust people when they offer you a once in a lifetime opportunity to get rick quick. Don't go down a dark alley in the middle of the night wearing expensive clothing.
You think running with scissors and letting your children play with paedophiles is in the same category as walking home in the dark?
You know that some people live in cities and work late at night?
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I am sure I recognize the 7th quote as Bundy's. Wouldn't bet a twenty on it, but I think it's his.
The book it was quoted from comes from the right time, too (published in 1981).
The idea that a man's control over his own actions can be "weakened" in any meaningful way by the way a woman dresses is exactly the problem. Men are not animals consumed by lust. It is always within a person's power to shut it down and not take sexual action. What the woman is wearing or doing or saying does not excuse a man's sexual aggression (or vice versa!) by a single iota. A man who does sexually harass or assault a woman after being "inflamed" is not doing so because they have an otherwise healthy attitude towards sex but are driven to act that way by the woman, they are doing so because they have pre-existing, unhealthy attitudes about women and sex (attitudes which are unfortunately quite widespread).
Does anyone know of an online library service that has it available?
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Actually, I'm a man and I don't think women contribute to weakening that control. I think you're making a lot of terrible assumptions here to begin with. I take offense, as a man, to the idea that someone can turn me bestial and lose control because of what they are wearing. Maybe you are like this, but that's your problem and it is 100% your responsibility to rise above it.
No matter which way we go there it seems like you're jousting with windmills and enflaming ill will with the more radically feminist members of the board.
I'm fairly certain I quoted you saying that if a man has to control his sexual urges women shouldn't be able to dress sexually because that makes it harder for men control themselves.
Which is what I said.
"You" in a general sense then.
Any person who thinks a woman's choice of clothing "weakens control" in a man has some serious shortcomings, one of which is misunderstanding men.
But there are men who are not 100% in control of their lives and urges, in every society. Its not useful to pretend that they don't exist, and its not useful to pretend that there are not circumstances that can push them to the edge.
In short, if you're a man who loses control at the sight of a short skirt, you're a pisspoor example of one.
if a man can be "pushed to the edge" of raping someone by the way they dress or act, then the problem has nothing to do with the woman - the problem is the man's own issues.
Which none of us are doing. We're not saying that they don't exist, we're saying that their control issues are solely their own, and that the blame for them should be placed solely on their shoulders.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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Actually, it does. The problem isn't "they exist", it's "they've always been given excuses and outs for their conduct."
Some species of large dogs (St Bernards seem to be particularly susceptible to this condition, despite their normally docile behaviour) become suddenly violent if they see some combinations of primary colours.
Since we can't ignore that this is a real problem among a common domestic pet, should we start blaming colours when it comes to unprovoked dog attacks and insist on a monochromatic lifestyle? Or does it make much more sense to address the problem itself, rather than a possible catalyst that is otherwise not only benign, but enriching?
It seems like you're asking "If poor people are being asked to choke their material urges then shouldn't less poor people not wear nikes or use iPhones?". There are more general principles at work which are inviolate.
Somehow, I don't think the softer side of Sears circa 1973 is pushing the limit...
...oh. You might have a point there.
Still, his fucking problem.
Sure it does.
Expecting better of people and jailing them when they break the law addresses these concerns. Dispelling the culture of crap like a woman being responsible for triggering someone else's weakness by how they dress addresses these concerns.
What are you looking for here? Some kind of self help system for men who think erections justify whatever comes after?
Even if you fix that mentality, it still wouldn't be a good idea for a woman to go home from a party at night without a coat. It is a contributing factor to aggravated sexual assault and is as much risky behavior as not locking your doors when you go out. It's not your fault that you got robbed, but you could have taken extra measures to prevent yourself from becoming a statistic.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
In a world where we want to prevent rape, not just punish it, is the responsibility for this entirely on the male population to self-monitor to achieve this (including a significant minority of males with serious impulse control issues), or do females have some role in preventing rape from happening?
Did you know most date rape occurs without the use of narcotics aside from alcohol? The idea of the sleazy creeper dropping roofies into someone's drink is, in essence, an urban myth (there are actual cases of it happening, but they are exceptionally rare).
If some people have impulse control issues they should be in some sort of therapy. We should find some way to help these people not place a burden on the victim.
How do women prevent rape from happening? Rape is sexual assault, perpetrated by one person against another. The only way to prevent rape is to lock yourself in your home, forever. And even that might not be enough.
So a given woman being raped is 100% chance, and nothing to do with behaviour?
Way to blame that victim.
Also you know what? Its not just impulse control that make people do that.
I don't know about you but there are a lot of things stopping me from raping a girl other then foresight and control.
Yes, it's on the males. With the emphasis made clear to each and every male through society that if they give into those dark urges, no excuses will be tolerated.
Yeah, it is. The idea that rape is a crime of sex and not power & violence, and thus rapists are men who see super-sexy tarted up young attractive women and just can't control their sexual desires is a myth.
There are certainly common-sense things women can do to (hopefully) reduce their risks of being a victim of sexual assault, but claiming they share some responsibility for the crime of sexual assault if they do or don't do certain things or do or don't behave in a certain way is very much blaming the victim.
Crime prevention as a whole is a very complicated issue, rape included. Yes, both genders need to be involved (duh) - but I don't see a reason for victims of crime to shoulder a significant amount of the burden to prevent it from happening to themselves.
Should I be 'expected' to lock my doors at night? Or ever? In my opinion, no. Likewise, I don't think women should be 'expected' to cover themselves up if they don't wish to. Rather, I expect that people should respect my privacy and my possessions, and I expect that people should respect a woman's rights and personhood. If those expectations aren't met, the appropriate response doesn't seem to me to be, "Gee whiz, obviously you need to engage in an arms race against burglars / dress more conservatively," it's to address the issue of crime.
Whether true or not, this is a terrible thing to give voice to, and to make it even a secondary or tertiary concern in discussions of rape.
Can a woman prevent herself from being raped? To some degree, yes.
A woman could keep herself locked indoors. A woman could choose not to ever go to parties. Or drink. Or associate with other people. Or get into a relationship. Or join a sorority. Or all those other tired arguments about what a woman could have not done to protect herself a little better.
But the onus of raping/not raping is solely on the rapist. Someone who has raped has committed a sexual assault against someone else. They chose to do this. That a woman could have been at home knitting instead is totally irrelevant.
What you are asking is a terrible question to propagate. You call it "protection" or "self-responsibility" or whatever people often call it, but what you are doing is attempting to lay some of the burden of the assault on this person, or at the very least you are promoting a chilling effect on female behavior. That is not good.
It's entirely to so with the behavior of the rapist, yes. When have I ever argued that it was chance?
Well, it depends. Violent rape is most often about power, yes - but there are definitely cases where sexual desire was at the forefront (Polanski's case, for example).
And you've never changed channel when one of those charity adverts showing famine kids came on?
Blame is a useless gesture. There are steps that should be taken to help increase the probability of safety for hostile situations. Don't try to stop an armed robbery - get descriptions and information and call the police immediately afterward. Don't talk about death to a suicidal person. Don't let your children play with convicted sex offenders. Don't run with scissors. Don't trust people when they offer you a once in a lifetime opportunity to get rick quick. Don't go down a dark alley in the middle of the night wearing expensive clothing.
It is undeniable that these actions can help prevent bad things from happening to you. If you disobey this advice, you're not to blame, but you are irresponsible. The difference is meaningless because in the end these are all precautions necessary for a good measure of safety. Blame has no part in it because these bad things are bound to happen to somebody, but you can take steps to help prevent them from happening to you.
You'll have a lot more success in changing the behavior of potential victims than in changing the behavior of potential murderers and rapists, because the victims are the ones whose well being is at stake.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
And in a discussion like this, where the context from the OP is the entitlement complex men feel toward women, these are terrible observations.
You are feeding into a culture that tries to chill a woman's behavior and lay the responsibility of being assaulted at her feet. In a discussion of this nature, in this context, discussing what a woman could have done to not be rapeable is unhelpful.
Absolutely, but you would also recognise that in the real world, there are still going to be people who break in to homes/are inclined to rape women in certain circumstances.
It is the opposite of useful to suggest that `oh well, if you got raped, its all the dudes fault, there is absolutely nothing you could've done.' if the goal is prevention and not punishment.
Travel in groups at night, don't get plastered without friends, don't invest too much trust in people you know nothing about...these are all good bits of advice for anyone, but I suppose some people here think it is more useful to let shit go wrong by pretending we live in an ideal fairyland where 100% of men can be educated to be a specific thing.
You think running with scissors and letting your children play with paedophiles is in the same category as walking home in the dark?
You know that some people live in cities and work late at night?