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[SW:TOR] Tanks like spanking.

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Posts

  • InvisibleInvisible Registered User regular
    The mod you'll be using will still have a lot of willpower on it, it will just have higher endurance with slightly less willpower than the DPS version. Like the stat mod for tanks will be 30 willpower and 40 endurance while the dps one will be like 34 willpower and 29 endurance. It's not a huge difference.

    It's the other pieces that will greatly differ, they'll have endurance, defense and shield rating/absorb while the dps version will have power, crit, surge and accuracy. There's really no reason for to sacrifice any of the defense stats for power, critical or surge (at least until there's a combat log for us to see what the trade off actually is).

  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    I have a question re: shadow/assassin tanks. Is the DPS pretty good if you were running a tank spec in dps stance, and are there talents that require you to be in the tank stance to maximize the damage? I ask because me, my wife, and our friend pretty much run a 3 man group. We're not always questing together, but we run every FP at least a half dozen times usually for loot/exp/fun, and we typically try to do a tank/dps/healer dynamic to keep it easy. However, on some empire alts we're doing they both want to tank. He is a powertech, and my wife is an assassin.

    I figured if each ones dps won't be utterly atrocious, they can take turns tanking and the other one can just dps in their other stance. Assassin seems like the tank with the most dps capability, but that's just me looking at the talents.

  • WolveSightWolveSight Registered User regular
    from my experience with shadow, you "can" dps in the tank spec, but you will do less damage than a fully specced dpser of course. The drop-off isn't anywhere near as extreme as a guardian or vanguard though.

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  • ArrynArryn Ask not the Innkeeper For destiny is thy name!Registered User regular
    WolveSight wrote:
    from my experience with shadow, you "can" dps in the tank spec, but you will do less damage than a fully specced dpser of course. The drop-off isn't anywhere near as extreme as a guardian or vanguard though.

    I'll second this.

    Anecdotal evidence that may or may not have bearing on your situation:

    We tried a guild run of Hard Mode Directive 7, with me (tank specc'd guard) and a vanguard (also tank specc'd). We had a Sentinel as our lone true dps. The Vanguard has a full kit of very nice dps gear so we thought we'd be fine with him in dps stance. And we mostly were, completeing the run all the way up until Bulwark. We got nowhere near beating the enrage timer.

    Summary: for leveling, you'd likely be fine, but in the HMs when enrage timers get tight, you might be in trouble.

  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    Thanks, that's what I figured. It seems like assassin/shadow are probably the highest dps tank. Obviously it won't be as much as an actual specced dpser, but they both want to level as tank, so it's what we'll have to do.

  • HeirHeir Registered User regular
    Jedi Guardian question for you guys.

    I've seen some tank builds where half of their talent points went into the Vigilence tree and half in the Defence tree. I've seen other builds that are almost purely defense.

    Anyone have any opinions on which is more viable?

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  • BadwrongBadwrong TokyoRegistered User regular
    edited February 2012
    Heir wrote:
    Jedi Guardian question for you guys.

    I've seen some tank builds where half of their talent points went into the Vigilence tree and half in the Defence tree. I've seen other builds that are almost purely defense.

    Anyone have any opinions on which is more viable?

    Well I'm jugg, but its all mirrored so I assume you are talking about the middle tree's talent for being CC immune and 20% damage reduction after each force leap.

    In the guardian tree its called unremitting. I really haven't found a reason not to go with that build, you don't get the top talent for guardian slash, if someone has single target aggro issues they might need that ability? It takes one extra sunder to get max stacks since you dont have the 3 stack skill... not exactly a big deal considering what the middle tree gives you in utility and mitigation.

    So something like this: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500crGbuMrkzMZhGM0M.1

    Basically it makes intercept/guardian leap even more useful, because you will want to leap to a team mate which puts you at leap range of the enemy and that leap procs unstoppable/unremitting. Depending on the fight I'm using leap/intercept on almost every cooldown.... not if it will screw up boss positioning of course, but all the time otherwise. For example the twins in KP, the fire guy is ranged and you can leap to the off-tank to mitigate him while also gaining that mitigation when you leap back to the other boss. On trash that likes to CC the tank, it means you simply wont be CC'ed... very useful.


    Badwrong on
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  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    what would you guys say the main gameplay differences between jedi/sith warrior and powertech/vanguard tanks are? Force users seem like they're more mobile, but it seems like the tech tanks have more ranged abilities?

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  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    what would you guys say the main gameplay differences between jedi/sith warrior and powertech/vanguard tanks are? Force users seem like they're more mobile, but it seems like the tech tanks have more ranged abilities?

    I'd say that sums up a decent aspect of it. BH/Trooper tanks also seem to rule over anything with AoE threat, while Jedi tanks are kind of screwed currently in that department

  • HeirHeir Registered User regular
    Badwrong wrote:
    Heir wrote:
    Jedi Guardian question for you guys.

    I've seen some tank builds where half of their talent points went into the Vigilence tree and half in the Defence tree. I've seen other builds that are almost purely defense.

    Anyone have any opinions on which is more viable?

    Well I'm jugg, but its all mirrored so I assume you are talking about the middle tree's talent for being CC immune and 20% damage reduction after each force leap.

    In the guardian tree its called unremitting. I really haven't found a reason not to go with that build, you don't get the top talent for guardian slash, if someone has single target aggro issues they might need that ability? It takes one extra sunder to get max stacks since you dont have the 3 stack skill... not exactly a big deal considering what the middle tree gives you in utility and mitigation.

    So something like this: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500crGbuMrkzMZhGM0M.1

    Basically it makes intercept/guardian leap even more useful, because you will want to leap to a team mate which puts you at leap range of the enemy and that leap procs unstoppable/unremitting. Depending on the fight I'm using leap/intercept on almost every cooldown.... not if it will screw up boss positioning of course, but all the time otherwise. For example the twins in KP, the fire guy is ranged and you can leap to the off-tank to mitigate him while also gaining that mitigation when you leap back to the other boss. On trash that likes to CC the tank, it means you simply wont be CC'ed... very useful.


    This is very helpful, thanks!

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  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    edited February 2012
    Javen wrote:
    what would you guys say the main gameplay differences between jedi/sith warrior and powertech/vanguard tanks are? Force users seem like they're more mobile, but it seems like the tech tanks have more ranged abilities?

    I'd say that sums up a decent aspect of it. BH/Trooper tanks also seem to rule over anything with AoE threat, while Jedi tanks are kind of screwed currently in that department

    Jedi/Sith warrior is a great single target tank, and the tank cooldowns they get are far more powerful than the other tanks. However, their AoE tanking is terrible. My main is a Guardian and while he's awesome, so are the other 2 tanking types.

    As for AoE, I wouldn't say Jedi tanks are screwed, just knights. Shadow/Assassin AoE is very strong.

    IMO, having played all 3 to a certain extent, and a Guardian at 50 in raids, I like the other two tanks more because they have a resource that actually has to be paid attention to. Guardian is just spend all your focus, build back some focus, but you never have any hard decisions. Just hit the best thing available at all times. The other two tanks are a little more involved in their own resource.

    Joshmvii on
  • ringswraithringswraith Registered User regular
    My Shadow is 15 now, and I'm liking the Combat Technique stuff and Guard. But I find that I still lose threat to Qyzen, even though I've switched him to combat stance. Does my ability to generate threat improve later?

  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    Qyzen also taunts, so if you have that on auto that might be why

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  • ArrynArryn Ask not the Innkeeper For destiny is thy name!Registered User regular
    Tanking companions also have a ton of "this ability generates High Threat" moves. If you want to use him as dps, make sure he's not in his tanking stance, has taunt turned off, and you may have to turn of the threat generators.

    Note that as he goes up in levels, he's going to gain more abilities too. So if you haven't looked in awhile, he may have new ones you're unaware of.

  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    Yeah, chances are his taunt ability is still toggled on. If you read the tooltip, it'll say "bla bla, forcing the target to attack Qyzen for 6 seconds."

  • ringswraithringswraith Registered User regular
    I'm pretty sure I turned his taunt off as well but I'll check. Thanks!

  • ArrynArryn Ask not the Innkeeper For destiny is thy name!Registered User regular
    So I've seen these numbers around in a few different places, but never with any context as to how they were arrived at: 24% Defense, 40% shield rating, 40% absorption. I've seen these numbers recommended as optimal for an endgame ops tank (along with 100% Accuracy).

    Does anyone have any info on the "why" of these particular numbers or is it all internet voodoo?

  • DerrickDerrick Registered User regular
    Arryn wrote:
    So I've seen these numbers around in a few different places, but never with any context as to how they were arrived at: 24% Defense, 40% shield rating, 40% absorption. I've seen these numbers recommended as optimal for an endgame ops tank (along with 100% Accuracy).

    Does anyone have any info on the "why" of these particular numbers or is it all internet voodoo?

    Probably dimishing returns. If you overstack one stat, you're not going to get much benefit out of it.

    That said, I have full columni and my stats are a little bit higher than that (Assassin Tank).

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  • SanderJKSanderJK Crocodylus Pontifex Sinterklasicus Madrid, 3000 ADRegistered User regular
    It depends heavily on the class too. As a Vanguard I get a pretty high skill to shield to bonus, and I'm hovering around 15%/43/44 at the total at the moment. Only weaker items I have are 1 ear and 1 implant, because I'm not going to endlessly run dailies. The rest is all Columni, 2 pieces of Rakata, 2 pieces of crafted Rakata, and the pvp trinkets.

    Steam: SanderJK Origin: SanderJK
  • BadwrongBadwrong TokyoRegistered User regular
    Arryn wrote:
    24% Defense, 40% shield rating, 40% absorption.

    The silly part, is I'm in 100% rakata gear... and those numbers cannot be reached without remodding a lot of it. It comes with far to much accuracy and the silly surge rating. Remodding it though and those are about the stats one would get, +/- a few % depending on what mods you managed to get. Those numbers also differ between tank types, as jugg/guard I can get more defense than say a trooper/bh who end up with more shield.

    Steam: Badwrong || Xbox: Duncan Dohnuts || PSN: Buc_wild

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  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    The reasons are 1) actual diminishing returns on ratings and 2) inverse scaling of avoidance (defense) and mitigation (shield/absorb) as a result of SWTOR using a two roll system for incoming damage. There's a neat chart of diminishing returns here (not sure if you are playing vanguard/PT, but the numbers afaik are the same):

    http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-The-Shield-Tech-Shield-Spec-Compendium#Stats

    You can jump off to other more detailed resources from that thread.

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    do you lack faith, brother?
    or do you believe?
  • ArrynArryn Ask not the Innkeeper For destiny is thy name!Registered User regular
    Yeah, Sithwarrior.com was one of the places I'd first seen those numbers tossed out there. Wanted to double check with some of the tanks here, since I know we've got guys on this forum tanking HM ops and Nightmares.

    My own stats are pretty close to that, but I'm going to have to do some remodding like @Badwrong suggests to hit it. (Mostly Columi with a few Rakata pieces and one or two slots I haven't been lucky on.)

  • busfahrerbusfahrer Registered User regular
    I'm a level 30 Jedi Guardian, tank spec.

    Do I prefer +10 defense rating or +10 absorption rating? (Only doing PvE, btw)

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  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    It just depends on how much defense you have vs. shield/absorb. There are diminishing returns that start to hit defense really hard. The real answer though is it doesn't matter at all. I'm level 50 on my Guardian and my guild has cleared both hard modes in 8 man with me tanking, and I don't even really think about the mix of defense/shield/absorb. Off the top of my head, I have ~33% defense(with riposte talent buff up 100%), ~44% shield, ~25% absorb. I also have the tanking relic with the passive +absorb proc, and another one with an on demand +shield/absorb so the absorb is almost always higher.

  • FoefallerFoefaller Registered User regular
    busfahrer wrote: »
    I'm a level 30 Jedi Guardian, tank spec.

    Do I prefer +10 defense rating or +10 absorption rating? (Only doing PvE, btw)

    For a Guardian, I would say defence should be the first think you look for, at least until you hit the soft cap of ~24%, since a lot of your talents proc off seccessful parries and deflects.

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  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited February 2012
    Arryn wrote: »
    Yeah, Sithwarrior.com was one of the places I'd first seen those numbers tossed out there. Wanted to double check with some of the tanks here, since I know we've got guys on this forum tanking HM ops and Nightmares.

    The real "why" is that some guy made a formula to model incoming damage, put it in a spreadsheet, and those were the optimal values (or possibly the optimal ratio of values) that it spit out.

    In the actual game the noticeable difference between a tank at 25/40/40 and a tank (for example) at joshmvii's 33/44/25 is likely to be small-to-nonexistent and probably impossible to identify definitively without analyzing actual logs (which we can't do yet.) The most effective distribution of stats will probably also change from fight to fight based on specific mechanics. The main takeaway at this point is don't stack defense to the sky, because it's DR become murderous at a much lower level than other stats'.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
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    do you lack faith, brother?
    or do you believe?
  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    Heir wrote: »
    Badwrong wrote:
    Heir wrote:
    Jedi Guardian question for you guys.

    I've seen some tank builds where half of their talent points went into the Vigilence tree and half in the Defence tree. I've seen other builds that are almost purely defense.

    Anyone have any opinions on which is more viable?

    Well I'm jugg, but its all mirrored so I assume you are talking about the middle tree's talent for being CC immune and 20% damage reduction after each force leap.

    In the guardian tree its called unremitting. I really haven't found a reason not to go with that build, you don't get the top talent for guardian slash, if someone has single target aggro issues they might need that ability? It takes one extra sunder to get max stacks since you dont have the 3 stack skill... not exactly a big deal considering what the middle tree gives you in utility and mitigation.

    So something like this: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500crGbuMrkzMZhGM0M.1

    Basically it makes intercept/guardian leap even more useful, because you will want to leap to a team mate which puts you at leap range of the enemy and that leap procs unstoppable/unremitting. Depending on the fight I'm using leap/intercept on almost every cooldown.... not if it will screw up boss positioning of course, but all the time otherwise. For example the twins in KP, the fire guy is ranged and you can leap to the off-tank to mitigate him while also gaining that mitigation when you leap back to the other boss. On trash that likes to CC the tank, it means you simply wont be CC'ed... very useful.


    This is very helpful, thanks!

    A few things with that build:

    First you need dust storm for a tanking build, there are a few places you could grab the 2 points for it without reducing survivability.

    Second, there are two insanely good tanking talents at the top of the vigilance tree, commanding awe and protector, which I think leads to the following build as an option:

    http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500dMG0uZGGMMMhzdMM.1

    You basically give up 4% shield, 4% shield, and a small self shield for 4% resist all damage, 4% endurance, and another on demand 30% damage shield.

  • SelectaSelecta Registered User regular
    Aside from aim and endurance, what kind of stats should I be looking for on gear for my Powertech tank? I'm only 20 at the moment so I'm not seeing much besides those two, but every now and again I see something with power which I assume is useful but I can't seem to find anything on what it affects on the character screen. Using pvp rewards as an example, the armor vendor has 3 sets at 20 for hunters. One set has pieces with slightly higher aim than endurance which I'm assuming is meant for dps types, but the other two look identical favoring endurance a bit. I guess my question is to be more specific, what secondary stats aren't useful for a pve powertech?

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  • ArrynArryn Ask not the Innkeeper For destiny is thy name!Registered User regular
    Selecta wrote: »
    Aside from aim and endurance, what kind of stats should I be looking for on gear for my Powertech tank? I'm only 20 at the moment so I'm not seeing much besides those two, but every now and again I see something with power which I assume is useful but I can't seem to find anything on what it affects on the character screen. Using pvp rewards as an example, the armor vendor has 3 sets at 20 for hunters. One set has pieces with slightly higher aim than endurance which I'm assuming is meant for dps types, but the other two look identical favoring endurance a bit. I guess my question is to be more specific, what secondary stats aren't useful for a pve powertech?

    For PvE tanks-

    You want: Defense, Shield Rating, Absorption (for survival).

    You don't want: Alacrity. That's mostly a healer thing.

    All the others (Accuracy, Crit, Power, Surge) will kind of depend on if you're doing a lot of grouping or soloing.



  • SelectaSelecta Registered User regular
    For the others, if the piece has it, great but otherwise don't worry about it? Mods and augments and such should be adding primary stats and defense/shield rating/absorbtion, right?

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  • ArrynArryn Ask not the Innkeeper For destiny is thy name!Registered User regular
    Right. Though you should be aware that for PvP, those stats are bad. As a tank spec, I just switch to dps gear for pvp.

  • SelectaSelecta Registered User regular
    Dps gear with expertise, right? I'm still at the point where I can get away with whatever because nothing has much in the way of secondary stats to note "this piece goes with this spec and situation" right now. I'm cool with having multiple sets for specific things once im 50 though, that's nothing new.

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  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    Yes, at 50. If you want to pve/pvp tank, you should go for pve tanking gear and just use the pvp dps set for your AC, since shield/absorb and all that basically does nothing in pvp, so you're better off just doing more damage.

  • FoefallerFoefaller Registered User regular
    edited February 2012
    Joshmvii wrote: »
    Yes, at 50. If you want to pve/pvp tank, you should go for pve tanking gear and just use the pvp dps set for your AC, since shield/absorb and all that basically does nothing in pvp, so you're better off just doing more damage.

    Well, to be more specific, it does nothing to the all Force sorc/sage and half Tech Mec/Commando all dread and fear, as well as the mostly Tech Powertech/Vanguard and Sentinel/Operative.

    You'll be laughing at the puny attempts of Guards/Juggs, Sentinels/Marauders and Gunslingers/Snipers trying to kill you with thier mostly melee and ranged-type attacks while you stand there with high defence/shield/absorb though.

    Foefaller on
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  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    A sentinel/marauder will eat any tank spec besides a shadow/assassin alive easily. They'll be killing you more with DoTs than weapon attacks. And if you're wearing tank gear, the other ACs you mentioned will probably eat your lunch too, because you'll never do enough damage to kill them.

  • FoefallerFoefaller Registered User regular
    edited February 2012
    Really? Because I usually beat Sentinels/Marauders as tank spec Powertech in full tank Columi, both the Dot-happy Juyos and the Goring Atarus, though I will admit it is usually pretty tight.

    ...and I have never lost to a Guardian/Jugg or Gunslinger 1on1. Saber Ward and Dodge are worthless vs. a class that is 80% tech and ele damage, and most Guardians find themselves poping Enure to stay alive when I still have over half health.

    Foefaller on
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  • DecomposeyDecomposey Registered User regular
    Foefaller wrote:
    Really? Because I usually beat Sentinels/Marauders as tank spec Powertech in full tank Columi, both the Dot-happy Juyos and the Goring Atarus, though I will admit it is usually pretty tight.

    ...and I have never lost to a Guardian/Jugg or Gunslinger 1on1. Saber Ward and Dodge are worthless vs. a class that is 80% tech and ele damage, and most Guardians find themselves poping Enure to stay alive when I still have over half health.

    It's that Elemental damage that's the real killer. It basically ignores all armor, defenses, shields, what have yous, so we're basically fighting you naked.

    Before following any advice, opinions, or thoughts I may have expressed in the above post, be warned: I found Keven Costners "Waterworld" to be a very entertaining film.
  • ArrynArryn Ask not the Innkeeper For destiny is thy name!Registered User regular
    Decomposey wrote: »
    Foefaller wrote:
    Really? Because I usually beat Sentinels/Marauders as tank spec Powertech in full tank Columi, both the Dot-happy Juyos and the Goring Atarus, though I will admit it is usually pretty tight.

    ...and I have never lost to a Guardian/Jugg or Gunslinger 1on1. Saber Ward and Dodge are worthless vs. a class that is 80% tech and ele damage, and most Guardians find themselves poping Enure to stay alive when I still have over half health.

    It's that Elemental damage that's the real killer. It basically ignores all armor, defenses, shields, what have yous, so we're basically fighting you naked.

    Powertechs are in a world of their own when it comes to tanks in pvp. Your tank spec will handle other class/specs to a degree that other tanks can't even approach, really.

    In my own experience (Jedi Guardian) Marauders/Sentinels will tear me apart, more than almost any other class. I can stunlock Sorcs and sometimes even Snipers into oblivion, but Marauders are bad news.

  • DecomposeyDecomposey Registered User regular
    As a Juggernaut, I've never had a problem with a Mara/Sent. I don't know why. It takes me forever to kill them, and half the time one of their friends will arrive before they're dead and gang up on me, but 1 on 1 I beat them, eventually.

    Before following any advice, opinions, or thoughts I may have expressed in the above post, be warned: I found Keven Costners "Waterworld" to be a very entertaining film.
  • CowSharkCowShark Registered User regular
    edited February 2012
    As a Juggernaut, I feel like 1v1 fights are staked much more on whether I surprised someone, or whether they surprised me.

    Usually if I get the first couple swings in before they react, I kill somebody. Conversely, if I get caught unawares, or am fighting my camera under a scaffold in Huttball, I probably lose that fight!

    And apart from situations like that... I hardly ever notice one on one fights happening.

    CowShark on
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