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[SW:TOR] Tanks like spanking.

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Posts

  • ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    SightTDW wrote:
    Has anyone given tanking above the mid teens much of a shot yet?

    Just wondering how tight aggro gets, as my Shadow build is trading some of the damage dealing in the build in the OP for some extra focus regen and CC.

    A few Beta builds ago I did Vanguard tanking into the mid-20s, so I'm not sure how well this will apply to your specific case, but ...

    I never found keeping aggro to be a huge issue. Part of that is, I suppose, that Vanguards had (have?) some really sweet AoE tanking skills, but it's also because, since we were all relatively new to things, I could ask my group to be careful with their damage and to switch targets if something starting eating them and, by and large, they did. In the cases where the DPS ate too much aggro, the health pools were large enough that I had enough reaction time, most of the time, to do something about it - either a CC ability on their aggressor or a taunt.

    In all, I find that tanking in this game really works well when DPS pursue a careful ramp-up strategy, and many, if not all, of the DPS resource mechanics encourage that approach (e.g., burst too often or too soon and you'll drop into the slow ammo / heat / energy regen spectrum, and your DPS will get limited by the system).

    Moreover, there are a number of cases where it's perfectly alright to let an enemy go beat on a DPSer - they've got, as mentioned, fairly robust hit point pools, and even a fairly squishy DPS spec can take a Strong-class enemy pounding on them for a bit (and a Normal-class for even longer), potentially allowing them to burn it down. And, if they don't, learning opportunity!

    Hope that helps...?

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    Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
    The Disappearance of Inigo Sharpe: Tomas à Dunsanin
  • ChaosRedChaosRed Registered User
    edited December 2011
    Elvenshae wrote:
    A few Beta builds ago I did Vanguard tanking into the mid-20s, so I'm not sure how well this will apply to your specific case, but ...

    I never found keeping aggro to be a huge issue. Part of that is, I suppose, that Vanguards had (have?) some really sweet AoE tanking skills, but it's also because, since we were all relatively new to things, I could ask my group to be careful with their damage and to switch targets if something starting eating them and, by and large, they did. In the cases where the DPS ate too much aggro, the health pools were large enough that I had enough reaction time, most of the time, to do something about it - either a CC ability on their aggressor or a taunt.

    In all, I find that tanking in this game really works well when DPS pursue a careful ramp-up strategy, and many, if not all, of the DPS resource mechanics encourage that approach (e.g., burst too often or too soon and you'll drop into the slow ammo / heat / energy regen spectrum, and your DPS will get limited by the system).

    This was a really, really useful post. Cheers!

    ChaosRed on
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  • Alucard6986Alucard6986 Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    So if I'm juggernaut and I'm putting all my talents in vengeance, and I'm using a focus instead of a shield...does that essentially mean I'm not tanking, at least until I reverse half those things and use soresu etc?

    Alucard6986 on
    PSN: Ubeltanzer Blizzard: Ubel#1258
  • AutomaticzenAutomaticzen Registered User regular
    So if I'm juggernaut and I'm putting all my talents in vengeance, and I'm using a focus instead of a shield...does that essentially mean I'm not tanking, at least until I reverse half those things and use soresu etc?

    Correct. That just makes you a DPS Juggernaut.

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    I write about video games and stuff. It is fun. Sometimes.
  • CripTonicCripTonic Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    Elvenshae wrote:
    In all, I find that tanking in this game really works well when DPS pursue a careful ramp-up strategy, and many, if not all, of the DPS resource mechanics encourage that approach (e.g., burst too often or too soon and you'll drop into the slow ammo / heat / energy regen spectrum, and your DPS will get limited by the system).

    Except it's the exact opposite of this. You actually want to burst as hard as possible almost immediately to use your ~3min CD "returns 50% of your resources" button so you can use it again if the fight is long enough.

    Alternately, you will want to use your biggest/most effective AOE to clean up normals ASAP, which tanks don't really have tools to deal with except pressing AOE taunt as they finish (which doesn't work at all for Flyby/Orbital Strike since it lasts like 8 seconds.)

    If you're playing with good DPS, you aren't holding aggro in TOR without spamming taunt. From what I've heard they increased the threat mod on defensive stance from 50% to 100% in retail, so this may not be completely accurate anymore.

    CripTonic on
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  • GammarahGammarah Registered User regular
    Playing a Vanguard and having a lot of fun. Does anyone think it's worth to get the Enhanced Cells talent in the Tactics tree before moving on to the shield tree? I wanna focus on tanking but that group of talents looks too useful to miss.

  • GammarahGammarah Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    Playing a Vanguard and having a lot of fun. Does anyone think it's worth to get the Enhanced Cells talent in the Tactics tree before moving on to the shield tree? I'm not sure about the exact name of the talent, but it's the one point talent that enhances all of your cell stances in the second line of Tactics talents. I wanna focus on tanking but that group of talents looks too useful to miss.

    edit: Instead of editing my last post, I posted twice on accident

    Gammarah on
  • ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    CripTonic wrote:
    Elvenshae wrote:
    In all, I find that tanking in this game really works well when DPS pursue a careful ramp-up strategy, and many, if not all, of the DPS resource mechanics encourage that approach (e.g., burst too often or too soon and you'll drop into the slow ammo / heat / energy regen spectrum, and your DPS will get limited by the system).

    Except it's the exact opposite of this. You actually want to burst as hard as possible almost immediately to use your ~3min CD "returns 50% of your resources" button so you can use it again if the fight is long enough.

    Alternately, you will want to use your biggest/most effective AOE to clean up normals ASAP, which tanks don't really have tools to deal with except pressing AOE taunt as they finish (which doesn't work at all for Flyby/Orbital Strike since it lasts like 8 seconds.)

    If you're playing with good DPS, you aren't holding aggro in TOR without spamming taunt. From what I've heard they increased the threat mod on defensive stance from 50% to 100% in retail, so this may not be completely accurate anymore.

    I think I found your problem.

    omgbfz5lzi1s.png
    Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
    The Disappearance of Inigo Sharpe: Tomas à Dunsanin
  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    Man, which thread is the real one?

    1. Why did I just get an e-mail from amazon that the release date for TOR has been moved up to the 16th?

    2. Is there going to be an authenticator for Android?

    What is this I don't even.
  • CripTonicCripTonic Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    Elvenshae wrote:
    CripTonic wrote:
    Elvenshae wrote:
    In all, I find that tanking in this game really works well when DPS pursue a careful ramp-up strategy, and many, if not all, of the DPS resource mechanics encourage that approach (e.g., burst too often or too soon and you'll drop into the slow ammo / heat / energy regen spectrum, and your DPS will get limited by the system).

    Except it's the exact opposite of this. You actually want to burst as hard as possible almost immediately to use your ~3min CD "returns 50% of your resources" button so you can use it again if the fight is long enough.

    Alternately, you will want to use your biggest/most effective AOE to clean up normals ASAP, which tanks don't really have tools to deal with except pressing AOE taunt as they finish (which doesn't work at all for Flyby/Orbital Strike since it lasts like 8 seconds.)

    If you're playing with good DPS, you aren't holding aggro in TOR without spamming taunt. From what I've heard they increased the threat mod on defensive stance from 50% to 100% in retail, so this may not be completely accurate anymore.

    I think I found your problem.

    There's these things called enrage timers. In beta you hit them every boss in Hard Mode Flashpoints at 50 unless you went balls out DPS, and even then you sometimes still hit them.

    CripTonic on
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  • nessinnessin Registered User regular
    Other than slightly different skillsets, is there any significant difference between the tank mechanics? Such as one tank focuses on avoidance mechanics versus damage reduction? One eats more damage but buffs up by being low on health or can heal themselves? So on and so forth.

  • StericaSterica Halloween Japes Registered User, Moderator mod
    So for Assassins, does the +20% armor talent put them on par with Medium armored characters?

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  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    nessin wrote:
    Other than slightly different skillsets, is there any significant difference between the tank mechanics? Such as one tank focuses on avoidance mechanics versus damage reduction? One eats more damage but buffs up by being low on health or can heal themselves? So on and so forth.

    I can't speak to this specifically, but I can say if you're trying to decide which tank to play, just go with the one that has skills and a thematic appeal to you, because everything about how all of them tank will change over and over again anyway.

  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    So does this game use a "Can't avoid while casting" mechanic like WoW? Specifically I'm trying to figure out if hitting Master Strike is something I should ever do as a tank. I don't really care for hitting a 3 second channel anyway, but it does do pretty sweet damage, and i'm still low level(12) so I do have GCDs where it seems to be my best DPCT ability.

  • shelakshelak Registered User
    edited December 2011
    Never tested if i lose defense while casting. Anyway, its one of your most powerful abilities. However keep in mind that, it can be interrupted and if the target moves you will miss. Mobs rarely interrupt or move out of it's way.

    In pvp, most players will just get out of the way, so you have to catch them stunned or rooted.

    The talent to make it uninterruptible is flawed for the above reasons.

    shelak on
  • AspectVoidAspectVoid Registered User regular
    Joshmvii wrote:
    So does this game use a "Can't avoid while casting" mechanic like WoW? Specifically I'm trying to figure out if hitting Master Strike is something I should ever do as a tank. I don't really care for hitting a 3 second channel anyway, but it does do pretty sweet damage, and i'm still low level(12) so I do have GCDs where it seems to be my best DPCT ability.

    I believe that Master Strike is okay in PvE for tanking as long as you time it so the enemy can't interrupt it. Unless they're chasing someone else, Mobs and the like won't try to maneuver far enough away from you to break the attack. It has its place since its completely free, but more as a filler when everything else is on cooldown. In PvP, though, I would avoid it. Its too easy to run away from so all of the damage doesn't hit.

    PSN|AspectVoid
  • Dr_KeenbeanDr_Keenbean Dumb as a butt Planet Express ShipRegistered User regular
    So has anyone tried Juggernaut/Knight tanking In, say, Hammer Station? In Black Talon (and Essssellllesssseleles or whatever) There wasn't really much of any role cropping up. I'm finding that even out levelling threat is a bit of an issue.

    That is to say that Vette is often getting pounded by like 3 dudes ( :winky: ) since I can only focus on 1. Taunt has helped a little.

    Are we back to vanilla WoW mechanics of telling DPS to 'wait for 5 sunders'? I'm okay with that, It's just going to be rough adjusting from playing a current Paladin tank for so long, especially after the change to threat in WoW.

    PSN: Dr_Keenbean LIVE: Dr Keenbean Battle.net Drkeenbean#1951
  • shelakshelak Registered User
    edited December 2011
    So has anyone tried Juggernaut/Knight tanking In, say, Hammer Station? In Black Talon (and Essssellllesssseleles or whatever) There wasn't really much of any role cropping up. I'm finding that even out levelling threat is a bit of an issue.

    That is to say that Vette is often getting pounded by like 3 dudes ( :winky: ) since I can only focus on 1. Taunt has helped a little.

    Are we back to vanilla WoW mechanics of telling DPS to 'wait for 5 sunders'? I'm okay with that, It's just going to be rough adjusting from playing a current Paladin tank for so long, especially after the change to threat in WoW.

    Don't worry, soon you will be forced to use Quinn (Medic). This is not a joke.

    Other then that, spam your single AoE and taunt. Kill weaker mobs first.

    I still don't understand why sunder isn't an upgrade to your basic attack.

    shelak on
  • GrunjinGrunjin TexasRegistered User regular
    Love my Shadow tankiness but hate that I only have 1 aoe till level 26, so grabbing threat on a group of mobs is a PITA for now. Thank goodness for line of sight pulling.

  • shelakshelak Registered User
    Guardians/Juggernauts only get one weak (threat wise) AoE and a AoE taunt. So it's like @CripTonic said, kill the weaker ones asap.

  • Dr_KeenbeanDr_Keenbean Dumb as a butt Planet Express ShipRegistered User regular
    I'm holding out hope that Bioware will, as Blizzard did, see that threat as a mechanic isn't really fun and make it irrelevant.

    It made my life so much more fun to be able to focus on stacking mitigation and self-healing rather than have to worry about TPS.

    PSN: Dr_Keenbean LIVE: Dr Keenbean Battle.net Drkeenbean#1951
  • SparserLogicSparserLogic Registered User regular
    Grunjin wrote:
    Love my Shadow tankiness but hate that I only have 1 aoe till level 26, so grabbing threat on a group of mobs is a PITA for now. Thank goodness for line of sight pulling.

    Technically you have two (Overload counts) but if you want more you can always go Madness/Balance and grab the level 20 AE. I haven't tried it yet but I suspect its pretty solid.

  • Mad JazzMad Jazz Registered User regular
    shelak wrote:
    So has anyone tried Juggernaut/Knight tanking In, say, Hammer Station? In Black Talon (and Essssellllesssseleles or whatever) There wasn't really much of any role cropping up. I'm finding that even out levelling threat is a bit of an issue.

    That is to say that Vette is often getting pounded by like 3 dudes ( :winky: ) since I can only focus on 1. Taunt has helped a little.

    Are we back to vanilla WoW mechanics of telling DPS to 'wait for 5 sunders'? I'm okay with that, It's just going to be rough adjusting from playing a current Paladin tank for so long, especially after the change to threat in WoW.

    Don't worry, soon you will be forced to use Quinn (Medic). This is not a joke.

    Other then that, spam your single AoE and taunt. Kill weaker mobs first.

    I still don't understand why sunder isn't an upgrade to your basic attack.

    Yeah, the weaker mobs tend to bounce around a little bit, but I found that I was able to keep aggro on the majority of mobs in a pull totaling 4 or fewer without much problem. I had my friend hold of on dropping AE bombs until I got one or two hits off, but I don't think he ever waited more than one or two GCDs before he cut loose.

    camo_sig2.png
  • ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    CripTonic wrote:
    Elvenshae wrote:
    CripTonic wrote:
    Elvenshae wrote:
    A few Beta builds ago I did Vanguard tanking into the mid-20s, so I'm not sure how well this will apply to your specific case, but ...

    ...

    In all, I find that tanking in this game really works well when DPS pursue a careful ramp-up strategy, and many, if not all, of the DPS resource mechanics encourage that approach (e.g., burst too often or too soon and you'll drop into the slow ammo / heat / energy regen spectrum, and your DPS will get limited by the system).

    Except it's the exact opposite of this. You actually want to burst as hard as possible almost immediately to use your ~3min CD "returns 50% of your resources" button so you can use it again if the fight is long enough.

    Alternately, you will want to use your biggest/most effective AOE to clean up normals ASAP, which tanks don't really have tools to deal with except pressing AOE taunt as they finish (which doesn't work at all for Flyby/Orbital Strike since it lasts like 8 seconds.)

    If you're playing with good DPS, you aren't holding aggro in TOR without spamming taunt. From what I've heard they increased the threat mod on defensive stance from 50% to 100% in retail, so this may not be completely accurate anymore.

    I think I found your problem.

    There's these things called enrage timers. In beta you hit them every boss in Hard Mode Flashpoints at 50 unless you went balls out DPS, and even then you sometimes still hit them.

    I added an important piece of context which you dropped for some reason.

    omgbfz5lzi1s.png
    Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
    The Disappearance of Inigo Sharpe: Tomas à Dunsanin
  • ChaosRedChaosRed Registered User
    I went with a Guardian, despite the "bad reviews" that AC has for tanking. I will focus on DPS abilities to level for a while, then switch to a tank build once I've settled into a level I like to RP. I am terrible at builds, but my thought was to focus on any and all AOE attacks, to keep people angry at me. Not very fluent with the talent tree, but I did notice I could buff that force-attack that damages and stuns an area and started to feed that talent.

    Any Guardian builds (one to level with and then one to tank with), or advice would be appreciated. I can't offer much in return, except tips on how to RP effectively, but that's clearly, the most useless advice you'll ever receive. :)

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  • shelakshelak Registered User
    edited December 2011
    Just put points on the DPS tree, there is not much you can miss if you want to have the 31 point talent.

    Personally, i think the tree only develops after 25+, so i'm going with Focus till then and respec at that point. Focus offers a better benefit for the lower levels in my opinion.

    Something like this for me http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500ZZG0Rrdo.1

    Something like this for the DPS tree http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500ZIGMoMhzz.1

    EDIT: I wouldn't cross trees till i get the 21 point talent ( overhead slash ). Putting points on others trees can delay some vital skills a few levels imho. For example the Shien Form is a vital point in the DPS tree.

    shelak on
  • Dr_KeenbeanDr_Keenbean Dumb as a butt Planet Express ShipRegistered User regular
    I am going full tank from the get-go on my Jugg. I welcome the challenge.

    PSN: Dr_Keenbean LIVE: Dr Keenbean Battle.net Drkeenbean#1951
  • ChaosRedChaosRed Registered User
    Thanks Shelak! Man that Vigilance tree and Shien form is really tempting to reach for! I can see why you think Focus is better at early levels though.

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  • Grape ApeGrape Ape Registered User regular
    Loving tanking on the Powertech so far: rewards thinking ahead with increased resources!
    ohshit moments can be really punishing if vent heat isn't up though-- it takes forever to drop down into better energy generation if I pop off one too many abilities in rapid succession (the flame burst that applies the damage debuff in particular is a huge offender in this area.)
    Can't wait to hit the top of the tree for the 15 second heat venting ability.

    Then everyone will be tasting what poppa's cooking.

  • Mai-KeroMai-Kero Registered User regular
    So I was pretty set on going Guardian, but there were so many people play Jedi in my guild I decided to go vanguard instead. Still going to be main tank. I hope I'm not missing out on awesome stuff by being a lowly trooper instead of a force user.

  • Operative21Operative21 Registered User regular
    Mai-Kero wrote:
    So I was pretty set on going Guardian, but there were so many people play Jedi in my guild I decided to go vanguard instead. Still going to be main tank. I hope I'm not missing out on awesome stuff by being a lowly trooper instead of a force user.

    You're not. Lordy you are definitely not missing out on awesome stuff.

  • BadwrongBadwrong Registered User regular
    CripTonic wrote:
    If you're playing with good DPS, you aren't holding aggro in TOR without spamming taunt. From what I've heard they increased the threat mod on defensive stance from 50% to 100% in retail, so this may not be completely accurate anymore.

    Its still 50%, at least for juggernaut.

    I haven't had issues holding aggro as long as people attack my main target. With guard on the healer for redirected threat, other mobs stay aggroed by just a few attacks or an AOE.


    Steam: Badwrong || Xbox: Duncan Dohnuts || PSN: Buc_wild

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • WolveSightWolveSight Registered User regular
    So has anyone tried Juggernaut/Knight tanking In, say, Hammer Station? In Black Talon (and Essssellllesssseleles or whatever) There wasn't really much of any role cropping up. I'm finding that even out levelling threat is a bit of an issue.

    To answer your question, did Hammer Station last night as a Guardian, and didn't really have any issues. Had to learn how to work a few pulls and not to use my AoE to get the accuracy debuff on a few packs until the adds showed up, but that's about it.

    253J736.png
  • Delta AssaultDelta Assault Registered User regular
    Badwrong wrote:
    CripTonic wrote:
    If you're playing with good DPS, you aren't holding aggro in TOR without spamming taunt. From what I've heard they increased the threat mod on defensive stance from 50% to 100% in retail, so this may not be completely accurate anymore.

    Its still 50%, at least for juggernaut.

    I haven't had issues holding aggro as long as people attack my main target. With guard on the healer for redirected threat, other mobs stay aggroed by just a few attacks or an AOE.


    Wait... guard on the healer for threat? Wouldn't it make more sense to put guard on the highest DPS?

  • Dr_KeenbeanDr_Keenbean Dumb as a butt Planet Express ShipRegistered User regular
    WolveSight wrote:
    So has anyone tried Juggernaut/Knight tanking In, say, Hammer Station? In Black Talon (and Essssellllesssseleles or whatever) There wasn't really much of any role cropping up. I'm finding that even out levelling threat is a bit of an issue.

    To answer your question, did Hammer Station last night as a Guardian, and didn't really have any issues. Had to learn how to work a few pulls and not to use my AoE to get the accuracy debuff on a few packs until the adds showed up, but that's about it.

    I did Hammer Station last night too and it was a breeze. Granted we had 2 juggy tanks running guard on the other 2 folks. That made some hard pulls laughably easy.

    PSN: Dr_Keenbean LIVE: Dr Keenbean Battle.net Drkeenbean#1951
  • Brucelee41042Brucelee41042 Registered User regular
    I am going full tank from the get-go on my Jugg. I welcome the challenge.

    I started out with this mindset too. But I think I'm going to stop putting points into immortal and pump some into vengeance for a few levels. The +smash and overall strength perks look too good to pass up. I'm at 17 now, and I'm thinking my build will look something like this in the early 20's:

    http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101cMZhGM.1

    After I put 10 into vengeance, I'm going back to immortal for the rest of the way to 50.

  • CripTonicCripTonic Registered User regular
    Badwrong wrote:
    CripTonic wrote:
    If you're playing with good DPS, you aren't holding aggro in TOR without spamming taunt. From what I've heard they increased the threat mod on defensive stance from 50% to 100% in retail, so this may not be completely accurate anymore.

    Its still 50%, at least for juggernaut.

    I haven't had issues holding aggro as long as people attack my main target. With guard on the healer for redirected threat, other mobs stay aggroed by just a few attacks or an AOE.


    Wait... guard on the healer for threat? Wouldn't it make more sense to put guard on the highest DPS?

    More like put guard on anyone who is willing to stand near you, since the range on it is non-existent. Guard is a terribly implemented skill that just gets you killed faster during AOE mechanics, which is bad.

    0liDg.png
  • UnknownSaintUnknownSaint Registered User
    Have a 20ish Juggernaut, so here's some thoughts on it so far.

    -You basically can't tank Black Talon, because you don't get Soresu form until afterwards typically. Sundering Assault is high-threat but it doesn't really hold aggro on anything I wasn't out-damaging the entire group on. It's stupid but you'll probably be fine anyway.

    -I've done Hammer Station a few times, as well as a few heroic 4 missions with a full group, and don't have a huge issue with aggro. I didn't have every mob on me at all times, but aggro was never a big enough issue that it endangered anyone in my group. It still feels like threat generation is way undertuned though, and I would seriously hope they crank up all threat generation by about 25%.

    -Guard is fine, I actually really like it. I've been putting it on the healer because I haven't had too many problems with DPS pulling aggro, and if a boss does some focus-fire type of ability on a random party member I'd rather have the healer be more safe than anyone else.

    -The class feels a little weak, but not as bad as the things I was hearing about Juggernaut early on. Overall I like it, and it plays very much like a Warrior - which is fine by me as that was my tanking class of choice in WoW.

  • BadwrongBadwrong Registered User regular
    Wait... guard on the healer for threat? Wouldn't it make more sense to put guard on the highest DPS?

    Assuming healing causes some threat, then the threat on lose mobs would transfer somewhat to me.

    I'm not having trouble keeping aggro on the single elites that the DPS is on. No one has really strong AOE damage "yet", if I find someone who does I'll put guard on them.

    Steam: Badwrong || Xbox: Duncan Dohnuts || PSN: Buc_wild

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • shelakshelak Registered User
    edited December 2011
    All you need to do is force leap and Guard becomes useless :( They really need to buff the range and change the 50% damage transfer.

    @Badwrong "yet" ? The only one Guardians/Juggernauts will ever have is a level three skill that does not scale very well as you level up. After that only the AoE taunt.

    Add the fact that the talents that improve it are in the DPS tree. No wonder people say that the best tanking build is 18/23/0.

    shelak on
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