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[SW:TOR] Tanks like spanking.

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Posts

  • UnknownSaintUnknownSaint Registered User
    Joshmvii wrote:
    5% damage reduction at low level is okay I guess, but the threat reduction means you two wouldn't pull off each other, but if you were grouped with a DPS who does a lot it seems like they'd pull off you since you're both nerfed on threat. I think you'd be better off just having one of you swap to your DPS form. I mean, your resource gen sucks in tank form anyway if you don't have things hitting you.

    5% damage reduction is just as good at any level. Flat-out damage reduction? That's really, really good. Better than almost any single talent is going to get you. I would wet myself with joy on my Warrior in WoW if I could just get 5% damage reduction with the click of a button.

    We did a couple flashpoints with a DPS, maybe he was bad but he never pulled off of either of us once.

    Part of the reason we did this was because neither of us really wants to re-spec to damage, and we've never really had an issue killing things before our healer's resources are strained - so it's a bit of a gimmick. Novel nonetheless, and I just wanted to mention it here. I'm not saying that this is superior to a standard party (it probably isn't) but we're doing it and it's pretty cool.

    My rage generation in tank form and with tank spec is at the point where it's just as good if not better than in DPS-form, and our healer has mentioned that it's way easier for him to keep two people up that are taking moderate damage than one guy taking all of the damage. So it works for us right now given our unusual group composition.

  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    I don't really recall how much FP bosses are hitting me for right now, but it can't be more than 1000, in which case 5% is 50 damage knocked off. Don't get me wrong, if there was no downside, I'd be all over a 5% dmg reduction. It's just that the downsides are too great for me to want to do something like that.

    The guys I'm RL friends with/guildmates who run with us would pull off me in an instant if me and another tank were both having a 25% threat reduction. Most of them could pull off me in AoE situations at will, and in single target if they're not focusing what I am they'll definitely pull. That being said, if it's working for you and you're having fun with it, then hell yeah. It's great that a non standard setup can still get things done, and the goal is just to have fun anyway.

    Side point, but if you're not a lot higher level than I am(25) I don't know how your rage gen could be as good in tank form. I'm a Guardian, and Soresu automatically drops your generation by 1 point per attack just by being in it, with the only upside being if you are getting hit then you get a point of rage(focus) every 6 seconds(it's 3 later, but that's much higher level). So if the other guy has agro on the boss and you don't, you're generating less rage and not being hit so not getting that. The skill that makes sundering strike give an extra focus works even if you're in Shii-Cho(your version). The only other benefit to being in Soresu is the lower cost on Riposte, but again, you're not going to be triggering that if you're not tanking anything.

    Again, if you're enjoying it, more power, but I know I do quite a bit more damage when I'm in Shii-Cho, though I'm only ever in it when there are no elites to be fought.

  • UnknownSaintUnknownSaint Registered User
    edited December 2011
    I am indeed higher level, and as you pointed out there is the talent that doubles the frequency of rage generation from receiving damage. That and my Smash and Force Scream are nearly always free because of Revenge, plus the added offensive (and defensive with Blade Barricade) bonus of being able to use Retaliation basically on CD. I often find myself GCD locked, spamming Vicious Slash to dump rage. Sundering Strike to keep up stacks (which will be even easier once I get Crushing Blow) of armor reduction and I'm totally fine on rage.

    If it's a single target boss we don't do it, because without the gains from getting hit it's no longer worth the sacrifice in DPS for me. (As I outlined above, the dropoff in DPS for tank-form when you're not actually getting hit is significant.)

    UnknownSaint on
  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    I feel you. That's a neat way to do it. Basically you just run in and each grab half the group. =) I don't know how much the gap will expand at 50 and what not, but at my level I like that my DPS isn't like 25% of a DPSer so what you're describing is still viable and won't take you twice as long as doing it the standard way.

    My guild/group of friends has very few people who like tanking, so I haven't run into a scenario where somebody else wants to go and they tank as well. Usually we have 2 people who are specced for healing and one of them just ends up DPSing, or just the standard group.

    This is a side point, but I'm wondering what the tank/healer requirements will be for Ops. I'm thinking 8 man will be 2 tank, 2 heal, 4 dps, and 16 man will be 2 tank, 4 heal, 8 dps, but that's just utter speculation.

  • EchoEcho Moderator mod
    Badwrong wrote:
    There is a big red arrow above your targets head. I'm red/green colorblind and have no problem seeing it.

    That I didn't notice this until now is... kind of telling. And it's really tiny in a big mess of mobs.

    Echo wrote: »
    Let they who have not posted about their balls in the wrong thread cast the first stone.
  • ben_botben_bot Registered User regular
    Got to lvl 20 over the weekend on my JG. I was able to tank Hammer station twice. I found myself wondering if/when i get AOE tanking abilities. Anyone know? And does Force Freeze get me any threat?

    PSN: ben_bot
  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    ben_bot wrote:
    Got to lvl 20 over the weekend on my JG. I was able to tank Hammer station twice. I found myself wondering if/when i get AOE tanking abilities. Anyone know? And does Force Freeze get me any threat?

    Don't use force freeze for threat. Do use force freeze on champion level melee mobs after you have established threat, then run around and kite them and laugh while they can't hit you. =P It's also great primarily for pvp.

    I'm also a Guardian, and while I can tank fine now, the AoE tanking tools don't come until 30 and 32. It's just force sweep until then. At 30 you get AoE taunt, on a 45 second CD(also awesome for pvp of course), and at 32 you get cyclone slash, which is a 5 target AoE that costs 3 focus. Basically, Slash, but it's a frontal AoE.

    Joshmvii on
  • ben_botben_bot Registered User regular
    Joshmvii wrote:
    ben_bot wrote:
    Got to lvl 20 over the weekend on my JG. I was able to tank Hammer station twice. I found myself wondering if/when i get AOE tanking abilities. Anyone know? And does Force Freeze get me any threat?

    Don't use force freeze for threat. Do use force freeze on champion level melee mobs after you have established threat, then run around and kite them and laugh while they can't hit you. =P It's also great primarily for pvp.

    I'm also a Guardian, and while I can tank fine now, the AoE tanking tools don't come until 30 and 32. It's just force sweep until then. At 30 you get AoE taunt, on a 45 second CD(also awesome for pvp of course), and at 32 you get cyclone slash, which is a 5 target AoE that costs 3 focus. Basically, Slash, but it's a frontal AoE.

    That's good to hear it's not only at endgame that I get that kind of stuff. I'm having a great time with my JG overall, just AoE threat seems kind of hard after being spoiled with a paladin tank in WoW. Hammer of the Righteous makes things so easy.

    PSN: ben_bot
  • StericaSterica Wow! That was shit.Registered User, Moderator mod
    Derrick wrote:
    Question- Do you find that you have to use your normal attack in your rotation? (or what is your rotation).
    Yes, frequently.

    My priority list is as follows:

    1. Refresh Dark Ward
    2. Discharge if the debuff is about to fall off.
    3. Shock if Energize is up.
    4. Thrash if Force is around 50. Otherwise, Saber Strike
    5. If not in range/avoiding a nasty personal aoe, pop Recklessness and Force Lightning.
    6. If not in range/avoid a nasty personal aoe *and Recklessness is down), Crushing Darkness and Shock.

    YL9WnCY.png
  • EchoEcho Moderator mod
    Funny how I have no idea how that means when I play your mirror class. :P

    Echo wrote: »
    Let they who have not posted about their balls in the wrong thread cast the first stone.
  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    They should definitely have named everything the same, and just put grimdark in front of the name for empire shit. Grimdark force leap, grimdark slash. It would've been fine. =P

  • StericaSterica Wow! That was shit.Registered User, Moderator mod
    Echo wrote:
    Funny how I have no idea how that means when I play your mirror class. :P
    1. Refresh Kinetic Ward
    2. Force Breach if the debuff is about to fall off.
    3. Project if Particle Acceleration is up.
    4. Double Strike if Force is around 50. Otherwise, Saber Strike.
    5. If not in range/avoiding a nasty personal aoe, pop Force Potency and Telekinetic Throw.
    6. If not in range/avoid a nasty personal aoe (and Force Potency is down), Mind Crush and Project.

    YL9WnCY.png
  • shelakshelak Registered User
    edited December 2011
    [...]

    My rage generation in tank form and with tank spec is at the point where it's just as good if not better than in DPS-form, and our healer has mentioned that it's way easier for him to keep two people up that are taking moderate damage than one guy taking all of the damage. So it works for us right now given our unusual group composition.

    How is it possible that your rage generation is even comparable to the DPS form ?

    Not only you get one less focus from strike abilities but the Tank form at the best generates 1 focus per 3 secs while taking damage. In DPS form your strike abilities generate one more focus, you get one focus per 6 secs while being attacked and all abilities refund one focus.

    I found my DPS form focus generation far beyond the Tank form one, not to mention that i got the AoE focus free at all times and access to two focus giving talents, while the tank tank is based on specific procs.

    That is why the DPS form is DPS, you get more focus and thus more attacks, there aren't dmg% talents other then the AoE one.

    Personally, i think i have to spam the basic attack just too much in tank form, i would like to have a better focus generations even if i got a direct penalty to damage.

    EDIT: We already get a damage reduction in Tank form since the DPS form gives 12% dmg, my bad.

    shelak on
  • EchoEcho Moderator mod
    Rorus Raz wrote:
    Echo wrote:
    Funny how I have no idea how that means when I play your mirror class. :P
    1. Refresh Kinetic Ward
    2. Force Breach if the debuff is about to fall off.
    3. Project if Particle Acceleration is up.
    4. Double Strike if Force is around 50. Otherwise, Saber Strike.
    5. If not in range/avoiding a nasty personal aoe, pop Force Potency and Telekinetic Throw.
    6. If not in range/avoid a nasty personal aoe (and Force Potency is down), Mind Crush and Project.

    I'm 36 and now I have 2/2 in Harnessed Shadows, and that makes Project a higher priority since at three stacks your TK Throw becomes immune to pushback and heals you 3% per tick. So I Double Strike a fair bunch if I'm at 40+ energy to see if it procs the reset on the Project cooldown so I can get another stack of Harnessed Shadows.

    Echo wrote: »
    Let they who have not posted about their balls in the wrong thread cast the first stone.
  • StericaSterica Wow! That was shit.Registered User, Moderator mod
    I'm only 22 right now, so you'll have a vastly different system work with. You should also have the higher force regen than I do, which means you can afford to spend more of your force.

    YL9WnCY.png
  • EchoEcho Moderator mod
    Yeah, things get a lot better when you have that 30% regen boost.

    Echo wrote: »
    Let they who have not posted about their balls in the wrong thread cast the first stone.
  • BadwrongBadwrong Registered User regular
    ben_bot wrote:
    That's good to hear it's not only at endgame that I get that kind of stuff. I'm having a great time with my JG overall, just AoE threat seems kind of hard after being spoiled with a paladin tank in WoW. Hammer of the Righteous makes things so easy.

    I'm 38 jugg, I think things started to feel more "complete" around the early 30's.
    I'd have to look at the exact level for the AOE taunt. Its on a 30 second cooldown which works out pretty well.

    You end up with a crapton of tools...
    Force choke (talented to not channel), backhand, force scream, force smash, ravage, force push, disrupt, freeze, force leap (talented to stun).... all these for controlling mobs in a group. Some people think the non-strong/elites should just be ignored, by with all those tools as a tank you can control the fight easily, before even using your taunt/aoe-taunt.

    Of course you gotta be pretty quick on keybinds...
    Last I checked I have 25 keybinds. 12 on my mouse, 9 on the keyboard (1-5, Q E R F)... and Shift+ WADS.
    All quick and easy to press on the fly... and I use pretty much all of them, especially when tanking.

    Also pure tank can solo elites with extreme ease, as most of your stuns still work on them. Heroic 2 quests are doable most of the time solo.

    Steam: Badwrong || Xbox: Duncan Dohnuts || PSN: Buc_wild

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • shelakshelak Registered User
    Personally i find the JK/SW Tank AC damage just way too low overall. It makes questing a pain and the tanking doesn't compensate it. So either you chose to tank and do FPs with friends and have a horrible time questing or you quest and don't tank for friends. It's not enjoyable at all.

    At 50 i have no issues with it since most of the game play is simply FPs.

  • BadwrongBadwrong Registered User regular
    shelak wrote:
    Personally i find the JK/SW Tank AC damage just way too low overall. It makes questing a pain and the tanking doesn't compensate it. So either you chose to tank and do FPs with friends and have a horrible time questing or you quest and don't tank for friends. It's not enjoyable at all.

    At 50 i have no issues with it since most of the game play is simply FPs.

    I dunno... watching my health almost never drop below 70% while fighting an elite doesn't seem like a pain to me.

    Steam: Badwrong || Xbox: Duncan Dohnuts || PSN: Buc_wild

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • shelakshelak Registered User
    edited December 2011
    I doesn't either with DPS build. You still have most of your interrupts and you do far more DPS overall. Fighting an elite with a tank build is 5 mins of stun locking while the companion kills it.

    You can always change to the Tank stance for an elite if you want. In my opinion, most of the tank tree talents are negligible, the biggest bonus are from the form itself.

    That is what i did in the end. DPS tree with Tank form when needed. I get all the tank benefits plus more damage.

    I would like to add that i didn't like the talented force choke /statis that much since its duration gets reduced to 3 secs, 1.5 of those are GCD. You get less CC time overall. I mainly use it as an interrupt either way but for pvp i would prefer it untalented.

    Not to mention that you get a healer later, making the DPS build even better.

    EDIT: A bit more detail

    Now: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500ZIGroMozzz.1

    Later: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500cMGouzMZIGroMozzM.1

    I might even take the DPS form out and leave the rest, like this

    http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500cMGouzMZhGrMMhzzM.1

    If i'm not mistaken i actually get more ways to reduce damage then a pure Tank tree build, since i can get 20% direct damage reduction from leap and guardian.

    shelak on
  • StericaSterica Wow! That was shit.Registered User, Moderator mod
    One thing they need to fix is the responsiveness of your party/ops frames. I can't always see my healer's resources, and it's a big deal to know where their heat/energy is at so I can pop a potion/adrenal and give them a few moments to let their regen get out of the red.

    YL9WnCY.png
  • farbekriegfarbekrieg Registered User regular
    talented force choke is useful because it helps you get your
    Badwrong wrote:
    shelak wrote:
    Personally i find the JK/SW Tank AC damage just way too low overall. It makes questing a pain and the tanking doesn't compensate it. So either you chose to tank and do FPs with friends and have a horrible time questing or you quest and don't tank for friends. It's not enjoyable at all.

    At 50 i have no issues with it since most of the game play is simply FPs.

    I dunno... watching my health almost never drop below 70% while fighting an elite doesn't seem like a pain to me.

    this is most definitely not the case for me (usually elites of equal level leave me at 25-50%) depending on the type, there are some times on hoth particularly where my hps would just drop by say... 1/3 to 1/4 of my health bar for no noticable reason

  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    I would definitely spec DPS Guardian for levelling if I wasn't playing 100% of the time with my wife. Since I am, our party is me tanking, her healing and dpsing as heal spec sage, and 2 dps companions. As an added bonus, having another person questing with you gives you mad social points and makes it even more cinematic because we never know who is going to be responding to NPCs. It's like they designed this game to be even better questing with somebody else, which is hilarious when I think back to all of the herp derp it's just a single player game nonsense that was coming out of the beta a while back.

  • farbekriegfarbekrieg Registered User regular
    it worries me quite a bit to allow other people to affect some of my class quest outcomes... being a sith juggernaut and not always going with the most evil option causes a great disturbance in the force

  • ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    farbekrieg wrote:
    it worries me quite a bit to allow other people to affect some of my class quest outcomes... being a sith juggernaut and not always going with the most evil option causes a great disturbance in the force

    They can't affect your class quests, just the "public" quests.

    Elvenshae on
    omgbfz5lzi1s.png
    Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
    The Disappearance of Inigo Sharpe: Tomas à Dunsanin
  • FoefallerFoefaller Registered User regular
    farbekrieg wrote:
    it worries me quite a bit to allow other people to affect some of my class quest outcomes... being a sith juggernaut and not always going with the most evil option causes a great disturbance in the force

    He's talking about regular missions, other players are never allowed to so much as say a word while in your class story conversations (and in fact, if it's outside an instance, they start without them even getting a chance to join) so you don't have to worry one whit about someone else deciding what your juggernaut does with his own damn business.

    steam_sig.png
  • farbekriegfarbekrieg Registered User regular
    shows how much i group :D

    i think ive been in 4 groups so far

  • StericaSterica Wow! That was shit.Registered User, Moderator mod
    It is worth noting that Holocalling can restrict your options. It can even eliminate them outright and leave you at the mercy of your group members. Sometimes this is pretty logical (an option to kill a dude can't be selected since you aren't there), others make no sense at all since it's just a typical verbal response. Luckily, you can always hit escape to bail if you'd prefer to steer the conversation yourself.

    YL9WnCY.png
  • Dr_KeenbeanDr_Keenbean Dumb as a butt Planet Express ShipRegistered User regular
    Rorus Raz wrote:
    (an option to kill a dude can't be selected since you aren't there)

    Shenanigans! Vader killed a couple of Imperial officers this way. I know at least Admiral Ozzel in Empire.

    PSN: Dr_Keenbean LIVE: Dr Keenbean Battle.net Drkeenbean#1951
  • BobbleBobble Registered User regular
    Rorus Raz wrote:
    (an option to kill a dude can't be selected since you aren't there)

    Shenanigans! Vader killed a couple of Imperial officers this way. I know at least Admiral Ozzel in Empire.

    Vader was a solid Darkside X by that point.
    When do I get to slaughter younglings?

  • SiliconStewSiliconStew Registered User regular
    Rorus Raz wrote:
    (an option to kill a dude can't be selected since you aren't there)

    Shenanigans! Vader killed a couple of Imperial officers this way. I know at least Admiral Ozzel in Empire.

    Most NPC's haven't been through orientation.

    Just remember that half the people you meet are below average intelligence.
  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    I made the switch last not on my Immortal specced Juggy to leveling in Soresu form: Good choice. The 3% damage increase from the balanced form just isn't worth what you lose by not being in Soresu, in terms of more armor, more defense, cheaper retaliation, etc.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh SFV: Brainling
  • shelakshelak Registered User
    edited December 2011
    The form you chose to use and the talent build you chose to have are separate. Many talents aren't form specific and you can stance dance.

    Its not just 3%, you get a focus penalty as well. Anyway, to each his own.

    shelak on
  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    shelak wrote:
    The form you chose to use and the talent build you chose to have are separate. Many talents aren't form specific. Not to mention that you can stance dance.

    Its not just 3%, you get a focus penalty as well.

    A lot of stuff in Immortal is stance specific actually. You may want to re-read that tree. Not sure what Focus is, but I have found zero drawbacks with leveling in Soresu form if you are tank specced. You're assertion that form and talent build are separate may be technically true, but in practice is entirely untrue, especially in the case of the tank trees and Soresu. All the things I listed (more armor, more defense, cheaper retaliation) are specific to being in Soresu form, and only the armor is a direct bonus from the form.

    GnomeTank on
    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh SFV: Brainling
  • shelakshelak Registered User
    edited December 2011
    Focus as in Rage for the sith warrior.

    The tree has 20 talents, only 4 are soresu specific. It is true that the ones you listed are the specific ones. Don't get me wrong i also use soresu for tanking, i just think that the other trees have just as good tanking talents.

    This is just general commenting of course, one should play as it sees fit.

    shelak on
  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    I have no issues with Rage in Soresu form while leveling. The balanced form (Shii-cho) has no effect on Rage. Shien does, but Shien is a Vengeance tree DPS form. Assault's generate 1 less rage, but this is almost completely made up for by generating rage by getting hit (and is completely made up for when you get Sweeping Fury late in the tree). These are the things you lose when specced immortal and not fighting in Soresu form:

    6% defense chance
    60% armor
    15% shield chance
    Retaliation 2 rage cheaper
    Revenge proc on defense (cheaper Force Scream/Smash)
    Faster rage gen and quick Enrage CD when using Vicious Slash/Sweeping Slash

    What would make me want to take 3% damage and little effect on rage gen in exchange for all that?

    GnomeTank on
    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh SFV: Brainling
  • Dr_KeenbeanDr_Keenbean Dumb as a butt Planet Express ShipRegistered User regular
    I've been using soresu exclusively since I got it - currently my juggy is 28. I'm full in the Immortal tree with 0 points elsewhere.

    My levelling has not suffered in any way. Being un-killable makes things go pretty well actually.

    PSN: Dr_Keenbean LIVE: Dr Keenbean Battle.net Drkeenbean#1951
  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    shelak wrote:
    Focus as in Rage for the sith warrior.

    The tree has 20 talents, only 4 are soresu specific. It is true that the ones you listed are the specific ones. Don't get me wrong i also use soresu for tanking, i just think that the other trees have just as good tanking talents.

    This is just general commenting of course, one should play as it sees fit.

    Do what? We aren't even talking about tanking, we are talking about leveling as Immortal/Whatever the Guardian calls Immortal (the tanking tree). For that matter, there is no way the two DPS trees have as good of tanking talents as the tank tree does. Maybe at the lowest levels, but once you get above 25 or so, you start needing the added defenses from the tank trees.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh SFV: Brainling
  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    I've been using soresu exclusively since I got it - currently my juggy is 28. I'm full in the Immortal tree with 0 points elsewhere.

    My levelling has not suffered in any way. Being un-killable makes things go pretty well actually.

    Exactly. If you are leveling Immortal, you gave up being a DPS machine. You make up for this by being nearly impossible to kill with a healer companion out.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh SFV: Brainling
  • shelakshelak Registered User
    edited December 2011
    GnomeTank wrote:
    I have no issues with Rage in Soresu form while leveling. The balanced form (Shii-cho) has no effect on Rage. Shien does, but Shien is a Vengeance tree DPS form. Assault's generate 1 less rage, but this is almost completely made up for by generating rage by getting hit (and is completely made up for when you get Sweeping Fury late in the tree). These are the things you lose when specced immortal and not fighting in Soresu form:

    6% defense chance
    60% armor
    15% shield chance
    Retaliation 2 rage cheaper
    Revenge proc on defense (cheaper Force Scream/Smash)
    Faster rage gen and quick Enrage CD when using Vicious Slash/Sweeping Slash

    What would make me want to take 3% damage and little effect on rage gen in exchange for all that?

    Change stances. You can do it mid combat.

    The 60% armor 15% shield chance aren't talented and pretty pointless versus quest trash. I can change to soresu and get those as well.
    I don't need the revenge proc because i get them always free.
    I get 1 rage every 6 seconds when getting damaged get 4 rage when CCed versus your 1 per 3 sec.
    I also have the retaliation 2 rage cheaper.
    i also have the 6% defense chance and it isn't soresu specific.
    I get 20% direct damage reduction on rage charge and 20% damage reduction on guardian leap that you don't.
    I get 3% hit, 6% str and 4% end.

    There is no added defense past 25, look at the tree again.

    Again the Tank form is not linked to a Immortal build. I can use the tank form just as effectively. All strike abilities generate one less rage in soresu, it is far more then just assault.

    JKs don't get a healer till 32+.

    shelak on
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