You kinda explained why he isn't as big in tournies and then said "I wonder why he isn't as big in tournies?"
He is relient on those early kills and good teamwork counters that. Where is good teamwork mostly present? Tournies and high elo.
Shaco is anti-fun in solo queue, so I always ask that he be banned. Trynd is the same way, and I am starting to see Vayne as anti-fun too. I've stopped banning Akali, cause really, now that she is perma-banned, people don't go into a game thinking "I'm gonna grab Akali." I haven't played against an Akali on my main account in over a month.
Good point, I had forgotten how dependent on early kills he is. Still, it's very hard to stop that level 2 gank, especially in mid lane.
Yes, exactly why with good team work you mess up his boxes and resetting them takes time. And now it's no longer a lvl 2 gank.
Eh, I still think popping his boxes is way too hard and dangerous. The only way to pop them is to send a person into them so they can get CC'd and targeted by the boxes. If there's enough boxes to kill the ancient golem in 5 seconds, there's enough boxes to kill most characters if they get an unlucky fear. Even if you succeed, you've got one member of your team who's at 1/3rd health, you're deep in the enemy jungle, and the enemy team knows where you are. If they've got any level 1 teamfight ability, you'll be extremely lucky to make it out alive without losing anyone.
Hello, LoLs thread. I find myself coming back to it after a long hiatus from when I first started. I have some questions about Leona, as she is currently my favorite champion.
If anyone here plays her, can you give me some advice on how to build her? I usually get a Shurelyas, sunfire, merc/ionian depending on team comp, and same with force of nature/banshees veil and...after that Im a bit stumped.
Can't remember the last time my team has ever lost to a jungle shaco in ranked. Shaco was picked? How nice, everyone form up we have a clown to kill.
Worst case scenario we break boxes and leave.
Also, guys, you can see him deceive even through the fog of war. Don't have a ward up in river yet? Well that's a mistake but at least you have a chance to see if he is coming at you and run before he lands a shiv.
One of the best things I learned about dealing with Shaco is that, until he gets Mobility Boots, he can't deceive from the river and make it to the bushes on Top or Bottom; so if you stay near them you are safe(r) from ganks
So ive done an experiment . Over that last few games I have just played who I want ( aka Morde) regardless of what the team needs. While my w/l hasnt gotten better it has not gotten worse either and my personal performance and score is doing much better too. Just went 3/0 in top lane vs singed in the first 15 minutes with zero ganks in my favor makes me feel pro, went on to carry the rest of my team who was doing decent as well. Granted this singed was making highly questionable decisions all game but when I switched to mid to take over for Ez , Ez got pushed all the way to his inner tower . Speaking of this retarded Ez he spent the entire game just running to random lanes killing someone then dying with them. With me having to drop what I was doing to cover for him.
P.S. The Morde OP cries are back! I love them , they sustain my black heart
Steam / Xbox Live: WSDX NNID: W-S-D-X 3DS FC: 2637-9461-8549
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TIFunkaliciousKicking back inNebraskaRegistered Userregular
the video on the champ page for leblancs passive features LB getting auto attacked until the passive procs then the opponent immediately begins attacking the correct leblanc
sounds about right
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DemonStaceyTTODewback's DaughterIn love with the TaySwayRegistered Userregular
Hello, LoLs thread. I find myself coming back to it after a long hiatus from when I first started. I have some questions about Leona, as she is currently my favorite champion.
If anyone here plays her, can you give me some advice on how to build her? I usually get a Shurelyas, sunfire, merc/ionian depending on team comp, and same with force of nature/banshees veil and...after that Im a bit stumped.
Would appreciate the help, you fine PAers!
I usually play her with one of my friends in bottom lane and go 0CS support with heal and exhaust.
Build is regrowth + soda > Philo > boots > shell > Aegis > whatever, you are now awesome (finish that shurelya though)
I tend to get merc on her because with the C/D points from def tree/offense tree/ shurelya/ randuin would make the ionian boots go over C/D cap.
Basically I her.
Runes I run are flat mres reds/quints, flat armor yellows/ scaling mres blues. With these and Aegis alone you are stupid tanky. When your bubble is up it's almost dumb how little damage you take.
popping his boxes in the jungle can just as easily lead to first blood for shaco so either way he gets you
Yet again we are talking about tournies. And picking Shaco is basically putting all your bread in the lvl 1 teamfight basket. And he isn't going to get his boxes down in time to even need to be popped if the invasion happens immediately. Given how safe tourny play tends to be is also a sleight against Shaco given how much he relies on his ganks.
Not saying he's bad (he's crazy strong) or even that he has no place in a tourny, but these are the reason's why a jungler that can be immensely helpful with just farm tends to be a better pick. Shaco is gamble.
Just had an annie tell me that atmogs on Riven is terrible and 'learn how your champ works'. FYI riven scales with ad and has a shield that scales with ad if you build only ad you are indestructable.
Words of wisdom from a level 10.
Rami on
Steam / Xbox Live: WSDX NNID: W-S-D-X 3DS FC: 2637-9461-8549
You kinda explained why he isn't as big in tournies and then said "I wonder why he isn't as big in tournies?"
He is relient on those early kills and good teamwork counters that. Where is good teamwork mostly present? Tournies and high elo.
Shaco is anti-fun in solo queue, so I always ask that he be banned. Trynd is the same way, and I am starting to see Vayne as anti-fun too. I've stopped banning Akali, cause really, now that she is perma-banned, people don't go into a game thinking "I'm gonna grab Akali." I haven't played against an Akali on my main account in over a month.
I agree with this for two reasons. The first, a well played Vayne with good support will just wreck anything. The second, every single Vayne on a team of mine has been utter crap. Some have done decent, but on Vayne decent is under par.
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DemonStaceyTTODewback's DaughterIn love with the TaySwayRegistered Userregular
Just had an annie tell me that atmogs on Riven is terrible and 'learn how your champ works'. FYI riven scales with ad and has a shield that scales with ad if you build only ad you are indestructable.
Words of wisdom from a level 10.
In all fairness straight BTs and a GA is the most baller way to play Riven. (LW in there eventually obvs)
But atmogs is awful on Riven. You are throwing away her strongest period in the game to build up either warmogs or atma and you trade it for a 6000 gold build other champs rock harder. Just pick gangplank or lee sin if you want someone that rolls with atmogs in style.
Edit: The only exception is if your team suddenly decided 4 ad/ap carries and Riven is a great team comp. In which case you let them know you are the "tank" and tell them that you will do 0 damage because you are building atmogs and they better man up.
Talith on
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DemonStaceyTTODewback's DaughterIn love with the TaySwayRegistered Userregular
But atmogs is awful on Riven. You are throwing away her strongest period in the game to build up either warmogs or atma and you trade it for a 6000 gold build other champs rock harder. Just pick gangplank or lee sin if you want someone that rolls with atmogs in style.
This is also true. She's really not Tanky Deeps. She's just straight up deeps who becomes tanky through pure leeching. If you aren't getting that AD all day you are wasting potential.
BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
Atmog's is your basic "I want to be tough, do ok damage, and not have to think about positioning and engaging too much in teamfights" build.
It's not optimal on Riven, or Lee or Talon, or other AD characters with great scaling; indeed, it works best on characters with good base values and minimal scaling, like Gangplank, Shyvana and Olaf. But, you'll still get dudes who build it on characters it doesn't really suit because they haven't really worked out the maths behind half of what's going on in LoL, or simply because they don't have the finesse yet to play the character with full AD for good scaling fun times.
Not really, no. It is slow to build and does not do any specific thing best. Atmas is expensive if you build it first compared to other damage items, whic slows down your farm and reduces your killing power before you get the set complete. Largely because when you buy it early the ad part of the item is the most valuable and you will not have much health to get a good boost. If you build warmogs first then you only get health, which does not increase your killing power and is gold inefficient compared to other tanking items.
it is good, but not on everyone, as some champions cannot wait for their HP to pick up or afford to only have an inefficient tanking item before they buy their ad.
Hello, LoLs thread. I find myself coming back to it after a long hiatus from when I first started. I have some questions about Leona, as she is currently my favorite champion.
If anyone here plays her, can you give me some advice on how to build her? I usually get a Shurelyas, sunfire, merc/ionian depending on team comp, and same with force of nature/banshees veil and...after that Im a bit stumped.
Would appreciate the help, you fine PAers!
I usually play her with one of my friends in bottom lane and go 0CS support with heal and exhaust.
Build is regrowth + soda > Philo > boots > shell > Aegis > whatever, you are now awesome (finish that shurelya though)
I tend to get merc on her because with the C/D points from def tree/offense tree/ shurelya/ randuin would make the ionian boots go over C/D cap.
Basically I her.
Runes I run are flat mres reds/quints, flat armor yellows/ scaling mres blues. With these and Aegis alone you are stupid tanky. When your bubble is up it's almost dumb how little damage you take.
Hmm. Alright, I'll have to try that out.
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
If you build warmogs first then you only get health, which does not increase your killing power and is gold inefficient compared to other tanking items.
Even after the nerf, Warmog's is still a very good cost-for-cost survivability gain. Remember that most characters get around 70ish armour base anyway, and even a full pen runepage only reduces around 25-30.
Sometimes there aren those games where it's all "guess it's time to go baa oh wait gotta get in on this. allright time to go baa oh no I have to be there." Then all of a sudden you have 3K+ gold and you can just outright buy atma's and life is good.
I thought someone on here calculated atmas was cost effective at 1600hp?
Cost effective if you're counting the armor and crit chance as worth the gold that you pay for them (from the base items). But they are not always worth that gold. I.E. atma's is cost effective if you are going to purchase other items that have armor and crit chance and are going to purchase them in the same order as you would the Atma's.
But if you're not, if your base damage is low so that crit chance doesn't help much (until you get an IE and/or high enough base attack is high enough that crit becomes better than AD) and you don't expect to be focused much by autoattackers so the armor isn't as valuable then it is not.
This is basically the "don't build items that don't help you" stance but rami is saying atmogs is good on everyone which is wrong even if we ignore the obvious AP focused champions that don't use half of the set. Atmogs is good when you're building a mix of sustainability and AD based offense and when you're going to be building those in the same order as you would the atmogs. It is good when you don't have a scaling ability that you want to exploit. That is not always the case for even bruiser heroes, riven being a good example, she has AD scaling on everything including her shield, early game you want to maximize AD rather than waiting for a completed set to get a decent value
Best way to deal with Shaco is to just go ahead and play a few games as him yourself.
You know, this is usually good advice. When I thought Anivia was OP (way back when) I played her and got good with her, and learned her strengths and weaknesses. Ditto with Vayne and Udyr. They're now some of my favorite characters after I thought they were unfair jerks.
So I picked up Shaco and decided to do that "bullshit" double buff golem stuff and I hate so much to see where it felt weak. It was my first time, so I figure I'd do terrible. LOLNOPE 8-3-x. Then I figure that must be a fluke so I go a second game LOLNOPE 4-1-8, and made an opponent rage so hard they just started slamming out keys on their keyboard. Just huge strings of all caps ASDFDSDFDSDSYYDS and stuff.
If you build warmogs first then you only get health, which does not increase your killing power and is gold inefficient compared to other tanking items.
Even after the nerf, Warmog's is still a very good cost-for-cost survivability gain. Remember that most characters get around 70ish armour base anyway, and even a full pen runepage only reduces around 25-30.
True, but consider a frozen heart, for less gold you get 100 armor (so if you had 70 armor and 2k EHP you're getting about the same effective HP from a warmogs or frozen heart vs prysical) but the frozen heart also reduces enemy auto-attacks by 20% and reduces your cooldowns by 20%, even ignoring the mana that is 20% more sustained damage on your abilities and a large component of the warmogs advantage.
A guardian angel is also cheaper and close in raw effectiveness to the warmogs when fully stacked, even when not counting the extra 750 HP it gives you when you come back to life (granted only once in 5 minutes, but...)
I just don't see it as strong as many of the other items which give defense, both because they tend to have more useful early build items and because they tend to have better passives. If you're building a straight cc type tank for instance you would likely want to get a giants belt but get warmogs last in favor of things like the frozen heart(CDR to make your CC abilities better), guardian angel(to come back from the grave after you've been focused and do more CC), FoN or BV for defense against abilities...
I mean, would you rather have a warmogs or a catalyst the protector and glacial shroud while getting one of those earlier?
randuin's is still the single highest EH armor item because it has armor with health and the attack speed slow.
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
Are you sure you mean 2k EHP?
Frozen Heart is a good item, but it also provides no protection against magic, which Warmog's does.
Guardian Angel is not worth the resistances it provides, I believe. Most of its cost is tied up in its passive. It's 1200 gold for 7 armour and 11 MR...
I would rather have Warmog's early so that I can stack it early, but it depends on the character. I tend to grab it on top characters (occasionally I get it when I'm playing sport Shen/Leona/J4), and then as soon as I've got it grab a Chain Vest and Negatron next (going for Glacial Shroud and either BV or FoN next).
On someone like Galio I would prefer the early Catalyst, for the sustain and mana, but on someone like GP or Olaf, I wouldn't even consider Catalyst.
Amongst other things, Warmog's health regen is pretty amazing, and you can get it by around 20-25 minutes, at which point you should be able to push your advantage in lane through to the tower unless you're against that piece of scum Yorick.
Looking at the forum post on crit runes and the PA dude who mentioned gangplank and based off an experience I had earlier I have a plan to destroy the top lane:
The other day as Riven my brother helped me leash golem as Singed and accidentally killed it with his poison as I fail smited. However I was still able to jungle pretty easily and the level advantage helped Singed win his lane. So what if you have a gangplank take Golem at the start and run crit reds. You'll be able to throw out parleys at a disgusting rate and outlevel your opponent in the top lane. It seems like a very easy way to win top lane if you happen to be on the bottom side team.
edit: Ooo I have a GP teammate, gonna try this out now.
I thought someone on here calculated atmas was cost effective at 1600hp?
For 2355gp, you get 720gp worth of armor and 850gp worth of %crit. You pay 785gp for the passive, which gives 1AD per 50hp.
1AD is worth 38gp, 38 into 785 is 21, so you'd need at least 21AD from Atma to make it worth just a basic item. 21(AD) by 50(HP) is 1050, so you'd need 1050hp to make Atma equivalent to just buying chain, cloak, and a pickaxe. Every additional 1050hp you gain past that makes Atma worth an additional 785gp, meaning that at 2100hp, Atma's Impaler is one of the most valuable items in the game.
@Warmog: There's a weird thing about Warmog's, it gives you too much health.
With defenses, Armor and MR multiply the effectiveness of Health, and Health multiplies the effectiveness of Armor and MR. Warmog gives you so much health that it gives you diminishing returns over buying a mix of MR, Health and Armor items; you'd have to build Warmog, Frozen Heart, and FoN in order for it to be cost effective*.
*Assuming that you're facing an even split of AD and AP, you're not running Atma (increasing the value of health), scaling off of HP (Vlad, Voli), or facing non-percentile based true damage.
Posts
Shaco is anti-fun in solo queue, so I always ask that he be banned. Trynd is the same way, and I am starting to see Vayne as anti-fun too. I've stopped banning Akali, cause really, now that she is perma-banned, people don't go into a game thinking "I'm gonna grab Akali." I haven't played against an Akali on my main account in over a month.
Eh, I still think popping his boxes is way too hard and dangerous. The only way to pop them is to send a person into them so they can get CC'd and targeted by the boxes. If there's enough boxes to kill the ancient golem in 5 seconds, there's enough boxes to kill most characters if they get an unlucky fear. Even if you succeed, you've got one member of your team who's at 1/3rd health, you're deep in the enemy jungle, and the enemy team knows where you are. If they've got any level 1 teamfight ability, you'll be extremely lucky to make it out alive without losing anyone.
Akali really hasn't changed much. (Which is why it's hilarious how people think she was just secret OP for ages.)
If anyone here plays her, can you give me some advice on how to build her? I usually get a Shurelyas, sunfire, merc/ionian depending on team comp, and same with force of nature/banshees veil and...after that Im a bit stumped.
Would appreciate the help, you fine PAers!
Worst case scenario we break boxes and leave.
Also, guys, you can see him deceive even through the fog of war. Don't have a ward up in river yet? Well that's a mistake but at least you have a chance to see if he is coming at you and run before he lands a shiv.
You are masochistic.
And once in awhile you win.
P.S. The Morde OP cries are back! I love them , they sustain my black heart
sounds about right
I usually play her with one of my friends in bottom lane and go 0CS support with heal and exhaust.
Build is regrowth + soda > Philo > boots > shell > Aegis > whatever, you are now awesome (finish that shurelya though)
I tend to get merc on her because with the C/D points from def tree/offense tree/ shurelya/ randuin would make the ionian boots go over C/D cap.
Basically I
Runes I run are flat mres reds/quints, flat armor yellows/ scaling mres blues. With these and Aegis alone you are stupid tanky. When your bubble is up it's almost dumb how little damage you take.
Yet again we are talking about tournies. And picking Shaco is basically putting all your bread in the lvl 1 teamfight basket. And he isn't going to get his boxes down in time to even need to be popped if the invasion happens immediately. Given how safe tourny play tends to be is also a sleight against Shaco given how much he relies on his ganks.
Not saying he's bad (he's crazy strong) or even that he has no place in a tourny, but these are the reason's why a jungler that can be immensely helpful with just farm tends to be a better pick. Shaco is gamble.
Words of wisdom from a level 10.
I agree with this for two reasons. The first, a well played Vayne with good support will just wreck anything. The second, every single Vayne on a team of mine has been utter crap. Some have done decent, but on Vayne decent is under par.
In all fairness straight BTs and a GA is the most baller way to play Riven. (LW in there eventually obvs)
Atmogs is what little girly-men do.
Edit: The only exception is if your team suddenly decided 4 ad/ap carries and Riven is a great team comp. In which case you let them know you are the "tank" and tell them that you will do 0 damage because you are building atmogs and they better man up.
This is also true. She's really not Tanky Deeps. She's just straight up deeps who becomes tanky through pure leeching. If you aren't getting that AD all day you are wasting potential.
I dunno, I think Olaf might take that crown.
weebogasm
It's not optimal on Riven, or Lee or Talon, or other AD characters with great scaling; indeed, it works best on characters with good base values and minimal scaling, like Gangplank, Shyvana and Olaf. But, you'll still get dudes who build it on characters it doesn't really suit because they haven't really worked out the maths behind half of what's going on in LoL, or simply because they don't have the finesse yet to play the character with full AD for good scaling fun times.
Not really, no. It is slow to build and does not do any specific thing best. Atmas is expensive if you build it first compared to other damage items, whic slows down your farm and reduces your killing power before you get the set complete. Largely because when you buy it early the ad part of the item is the most valuable and you will not have much health to get a good boost. If you build warmogs first then you only get health, which does not increase your killing power and is gold inefficient compared to other tanking items.
it is good, but not on everyone, as some champions cannot wait for their HP to pick up or afford to only have an inefficient tanking item before they buy their ad.
Hmm. Alright, I'll have to try that out.
Cost effective if you're counting the armor and crit chance as worth the gold that you pay for them (from the base items). But they are not always worth that gold. I.E. atma's is cost effective if you are going to purchase other items that have armor and crit chance and are going to purchase them in the same order as you would the Atma's.
But if you're not, if your base damage is low so that crit chance doesn't help much (until you get an IE and/or high enough base attack is high enough that crit becomes better than AD) and you don't expect to be focused much by autoattackers so the armor isn't as valuable then it is not.
This is basically the "don't build items that don't help you" stance but rami is saying atmogs is good on everyone which is wrong even if we ignore the obvious AP focused champions that don't use half of the set. Atmogs is good when you're building a mix of sustainability and AD based offense and when you're going to be building those in the same order as you would the atmogs. It is good when you don't have a scaling ability that you want to exploit. That is not always the case for even bruiser heroes, riven being a good example, she has AD scaling on everything including her shield, early game you want to maximize AD rather than waiting for a completed set to get a decent value
You know, this is usually good advice. When I thought Anivia was OP (way back when) I played her and got good with her, and learned her strengths and weaknesses. Ditto with Vayne and Udyr. They're now some of my favorite characters after I thought they were unfair jerks.
So I picked up Shaco and decided to do that "bullshit" double buff golem stuff and I hate so much to see where it felt weak. It was my first time, so I figure I'd do terrible. LOLNOPE 8-3-x. Then I figure that must be a fluke so I go a second game LOLNOPE 4-1-8, and made an opponent rage so hard they just started slamming out keys on their keyboard. Just huge strings of all caps ASDFDSDFDSDSYYDS and stuff.
I still say shaco is a broken POS.
True, but consider a frozen heart, for less gold you get 100 armor (so if you had 70 armor and 2k EHP you're getting about the same effective HP from a warmogs or frozen heart vs prysical) but the frozen heart also reduces enemy auto-attacks by 20% and reduces your cooldowns by 20%, even ignoring the mana that is 20% more sustained damage on your abilities and a large component of the warmogs advantage.
A guardian angel is also cheaper and close in raw effectiveness to the warmogs when fully stacked, even when not counting the extra 750 HP it gives you when you come back to life (granted only once in 5 minutes, but...)
I just don't see it as strong as many of the other items which give defense, both because they tend to have more useful early build items and because they tend to have better passives. If you're building a straight cc type tank for instance you would likely want to get a giants belt but get warmogs last in favor of things like the frozen heart(CDR to make your CC abilities better), guardian angel(to come back from the grave after you've been focused and do more CC), FoN or BV for defense against abilities...
I mean, would you rather have a warmogs or a catalyst the protector and glacial shroud while getting one of those earlier?
Frozen Heart is a good item, but it also provides no protection against magic, which Warmog's does.
Guardian Angel is not worth the resistances it provides, I believe. Most of its cost is tied up in its passive. It's 1200 gold for 7 armour and 11 MR...
I would rather have Warmog's early so that I can stack it early, but it depends on the character. I tend to grab it on top characters (occasionally I get it when I'm playing sport Shen/Leona/J4), and then as soon as I've got it grab a Chain Vest and Negatron next (going for Glacial Shroud and either BV or FoN next).
On someone like Galio I would prefer the early Catalyst, for the sustain and mana, but on someone like GP or Olaf, I wouldn't even consider Catalyst.
Amongst other things, Warmog's health regen is pretty amazing, and you can get it by around 20-25 minutes, at which point you should be able to push your advantage in lane through to the tower unless you're against that piece of scum Yorick.
The other day as Riven my brother helped me leash golem as Singed and accidentally killed it with his poison as I fail smited. However I was still able to jungle pretty easily and the level advantage helped Singed win his lane. So what if you have a gangplank take Golem at the start and run crit reds. You'll be able to throw out parleys at a disgusting rate and outlevel your opponent in the top lane. It seems like a very easy way to win top lane if you happen to be on the bottom side team.
edit: Ooo I have a GP teammate, gonna try this out now.
For 2355gp, you get 720gp worth of armor and 850gp worth of %crit. You pay 785gp for the passive, which gives 1AD per 50hp.
1AD is worth 38gp, 38 into 785 is 21, so you'd need at least 21AD from Atma to make it worth just a basic item. 21(AD) by 50(HP) is 1050, so you'd need 1050hp to make Atma equivalent to just buying chain, cloak, and a pickaxe. Every additional 1050hp you gain past that makes Atma worth an additional 785gp, meaning that at 2100hp, Atma's Impaler is one of the most valuable items in the game.
@Warmog: There's a weird thing about Warmog's, it gives you too much health.
With defenses, Armor and MR multiply the effectiveness of Health, and Health multiplies the effectiveness of Armor and MR. Warmog gives you so much health that it gives you diminishing returns over buying a mix of MR, Health and Armor items; you'd have to build Warmog, Frozen Heart, and FoN in order for it to be cost effective*.
*Assuming that you're facing an even split of AD and AP, you're not running Atma (increasing the value of health), scaling off of HP (Vlad, Voli), or facing non-percentile based true damage.