But once we take off the rose-colored glasses, doesn't it always end up being 1) The faction that dominates, 2) The other faction that shows up but always loses and 3)The faction both factions laugh at and say, "Thank god we're not those fuckers"?
I mean, you might as well name them the faction that always wins, the faction that always loses and the faction that is so horribly broken no one can figure out why the hell anyone could possibly subject themselves to it.
Having played DAoC for many, many years I don't recall this being an issue. Because there was 1 faction that was the clear winner? The other 2 would just gang the fuck up on them.
But once we take off the rose-colored glasses, doesn't it always end up being 1) The faction that dominates, 2) The other faction that shows up but always loses and 3)The faction both factions laugh at and say, "Thank god we're not those fuckers"?
I mean, you might as well name them the faction that always wins, the faction that always loses and the faction that is so horribly broken no one can figure out why the hell anyone could possibly subject themselves to it.
Having played DAoC for many, many years I don't recall this being an issue. Because there was 1 faction that was the clear winner? The other 2 would just gang the fuck up on them.
See, I hear people say this all the time, but that was never my DAoC experience. My experience went more like: Midgard was #1, we'd be fighting them on our Alb toons, then Hibernia would run up behind and ass fuck us, everytime.
I don't ever recall us having any kind of alliance thing going with the Hibs. There were times when Midgard was the one that got sandwiched between, but that was usually just because of placement on the battlefield (ie, the Hibs happened to charge up closer to the mids than us.)
What I do recall clearly from DAoC was having servers that were known as "oh, that's a Midgard server. That's a Hib server." etc.
The grab bags are bad design, but so is tiered PVP gear. I know this is MMO heresy, but in PVP you should win or lose based on how good you are at the game, not how big your numbers are, and having a forced gear treadmill with artificial barriers just makes that even less likely.
If you check earlier in the thread, I argued that gear should not be a factor in PvP. I also listed some ways they could implement this. It is not, however, a very probable thing to happen. Defucking the current setup is the next best alternative.
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Dr_KeenbeanDumb as a buttPlanet Express ShipRegistered Userregular
But once we take off the rose-colored glasses, doesn't it always end up being 1) The faction that dominates, 2) The other faction that shows up but always loses and 3)The faction both factions laugh at and say, "Thank god we're not those fuckers"?
I mean, you might as well name them the faction that always wins, the faction that always loses and the faction that is so horribly broken no one can figure out why the hell anyone could possibly subject themselves to it.
Having played DAoC for many, many years I don't recall this being an issue. Because there was 1 faction that was the clear winner? The other 2 would just gang the fuck up on them.
See, I hear people say this all the time, but that was never my DAoC experience. My experience went more like: Midgard was #1, we'd be fighting them on our Alb toons, then Hibernia would run up behind and ass fuck us, everytime.
I don't ever recall us having any kind of alliance thing going with the Hibs. There were times when Midgard was the one that got sandwiched between, but that was usually just because of placement on the battlefield (ie, the Hibs happened to charge up closer to the mids than us.)
What I do recall clearly from DAoC was having servers that were known as "oh, that's a Midgard server. That's a Hib server." etc.
Yeah I never saw that issue on my server. Relics changed hands frequently. Once Darkness Falls was added that shit started moving around quick.
But, alas, no game has recaptured that and it's not looking like anyone's going to bother making a successor. They just want to ape WoW's PvP in spite of it being largely awful.
But once we take off the rose-colored glasses, doesn't it always end up being 1) The faction that dominates, 2) The other faction that shows up but always loses and 3)The faction both factions laugh at and say, "Thank god we're not those fuckers"?
I mean, you might as well name them the faction that always wins, the faction that always loses and the faction that is so horribly broken no one can figure out why the hell anyone could possibly subject themselves to it.
Having played DAoC for many, many years I don't recall this being an issue. Because there was 1 faction that was the clear winner? The other 2 would just gang the fuck up on them.
See, I hear people say this all the time, but that was never my DAoC experience. My experience went more like: Midgard was #1, we'd be fighting them on our Alb toons, then Hibernia would run up behind and ass fuck us, everytime.
I don't ever recall us having any kind of alliance thing going with the Hibs. There were times when Midgard was the one that got sandwiched between, but that was usually just because of placement on the battlefield (ie, the Hibs happened to charge up closer to the mids than us.)
What I do recall clearly from DAoC was having servers that were known as "oh, that's a Midgard server. That's a Hib server." etc.
In the big Zerg VS Zerg gameplay thats generally how it went on every server. But sometimes you'd have one realm that had most of the relics, and both of the other two would go try and steal em back in the same night.
I didn't play into the first expansion, so a lot of my experience was roaming Emain Mach as a death squad, and running up the the Albion Fort every now and then to score some realm points if Hibs weren't out. I played Midgard on a server where it was like 35% Midgard, 45% Albion and 20% Hibernia. Midgard had a majority of the better PvPers. Hibernia had a group or two of really, really good PvPers that would decimate large groups thanks to the Bards Mind wipe insta interrupt -> Mass Mez they'd always get off. Having the run speed buff + the only instant cast ranged mass interrupt + Ranged mass Mez made their Bards really really powerful in small vs large groups play. Albion just had the Numbers.
A few of my friends stayed throughout all of DAoCs lifetime, and they had a great time in expansions. Relics on the server would change hands often. Hibernia stayed underpopulated but they could snag a relic from time to time. Not really anything resembling the 3 faction rule you layed out.
My disdain for the Official Forums - PvP Subforum grows. It is endless whines about shit that isn't even true. Terrible, terrible players whining about shit that is easily countered (Tracer Missle / Grav Round being a favorite right now, along with Sorc/Sage Absorb shield). They completely ignore legitimate issues like Warzone AFKers.
It makes me so sad. And so frustrated when I get two assholes that just auto-run into a damn wall all fucking game and we lose because of it.
The grab bags are bad design, but so is tiered PVP gear. I know this is MMO heresy, but in PVP you should win or lose based on how good you are at the game, not how big your numbers are, and having a forced gear treadmill with artificial barriers just makes that even less likely.
I do agree Ilum seems like shit though.
I have no problem with gear being a factor in MMO PvP. After all, you need to give those peeps who prefer to PvP some sort of treadmill to gear up, that's the basis of the game style.
However, there needs to be some sort of moderation to the increase in power...I think gear should give you a slight edge, so that in an even match, the person who dedicated a bit more time to PvP has the edge.
But I think SWTOR is messed up right now. Smugglers/Operatives got nerfed because their alpha strike was killing people "faster than intended". Yet, you put a fresh 50 (with solid gear) up against a Battlemaster, and you will literally die in a few seconds, without ever scratching them.
GW is a good example of doing it right, because there were gear differences, but extremely minor ones, and the primary rewards were cosmetic. WOW is the best example of doing it wrong, because, and I'm not sure if anyone tried to do this, if you PVPed a week or so before WOTLK, enemies could pretty much beat you while AFK. I would go OOM in my max level blues before killing a full epic PVPer, and that's stupid enough to deserve seppuku. That, and skill unlocks were both more fun and more fair to others, as while there were in practice better and worse skills, you never fought someone who just did x2 more damage than you do.
My disdain for the Official Forums - PvP Subforum grows. It is endless whines about shit that isn't even true. Terrible, terrible players whining about shit that is easily countered (Tracer Missle / Grav Round being a favorite right now, along with Sorc/Sage Absorb shield). They completely ignore legitimate issues like Warzone AFKers.
It makes me so sad. And so frustrated when I get two assholes that just auto-run into a damn wall all fucking game and we lose because of it.
Yeah, it is sad. Tracer Missile spam is hilariously easy to shut down and line of sight, I learned that the hard way. And the shield is only good against uncoordinated teams who aren't focus firing. It is really frustrating though when you see the entire enemy team running out of the gate shielded.
Jephery on
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
One of my favorite things in Void Star is seeing a Bounty Hunter rising up for his Death from Above on a door full of my teammates. I tab Target and Interrupt him before the second missle comes out. I always imagine them on the other end spitting and yelling at his screen about how terrible the combat system is, the lag, and how much damage he should have gotten right there if this game wasn't total shit. Then he alt-tabs out of the game right there to rant on the PvP forums while I do naughty things with his butt.
I also like Taunting Mercenaries that are bending over to Tracer Missle someone on my team. Hoping they say things to themselves like "But I read on the forums Tracer Missle hits for at least 2500 every time! Mine is only critting for 2000! this is bullshit!"
While I think its design could be improved on, I'd still count Nagrand during the leveling phase of BC as the best world PVP I've seen in a MMO. You had constant fights of various sizes throughout the zone as well as some bigger, but never bullshit 40v40 fights in the center, and the terrain was good for PVP even though it wasn't designed for it 100%/
This right here... Nagrand. Best open world PVP that I've seen.... even people not max level could accomplish stuff by bombing the objectives.
Only time it became a zerg was when the middle was being flipped and a full raid would sit there waiting for it to finish... and at that point it was over anyway.
I knew Ilum was a failure the first time I stepped into it and just saw the size of it. Then noticed that the objectives can be taken out of order... terrible design, it creates not "front" where a push-pull situation can happen. And even if that does happen, the games engine doesn't handle it worth a shit, my PC is VERY GOOD and the gameplay with 50 or more people is terrible and not fun, regardless of who's winning.
So far the best world PVP I've seen in SWTOR was on Hoth over a world boss. At least it was really fun when both sides had around 16 people. After we killed them a bit they felt the need to lag up the place with 60 more people... republic dads zerg force is so pathetic...
Taking objectives out of order isn't terrible if you have a zone that funnels people more.
I went to Ilum last night at level 41 with another level 41. We were able to go around capping objectives and scoring kills on some level 50s. Even saved a level 50 Shadow from 3 people. But then he got jacked in the back by an Operative and my friend and I dipped. I didn't die once, but he did once in about an hour of fucking around out there.
It felt like a great zone for World PvP. I'd fucking hate it if you had to capture the objectives in order, 1 at a time. That would fucking suck and it would just always be Zerg vs Zerg. With the way it is, it actually promotes breaking up into smaller OPs groups up to 16 and taking Areas at the same time or within a short amount of time from eachother.
And the zone isn't that big. It's a pretty perfect size IMO. It's no bigger than the Frontiers from DAoC (smaller that all the frontier zones for one realm I think). You can get from one Objective to another on a 90% mount in like 90 seconds. How small do you guys want the place?
It sounds like half the people complain because they can't do anything as a single person running around, and another group complain because it isn't Zerg vs Zerg enough. What the fuck man? Organize your guild into multiple 8-16 man groups, start taking objectives and communicate. Lead the opposition Zerg on a goose chase with a small scouting party. When they start to lose objectives small groups of their zerg will splinter off into shit you can easily dispatch as multiple groups go to different locations. If they just move as one giant Zerg, then your 2-3 teams will always be 2-3 Objectives ahead so they HAVE to split into smaller groups to keep up with you. Use some Guerilla Warfare tactics!
Apparently this is fucking impossible for people to do, and being camped/camping at the republic base is much prefered.
If you are imperial, then just sit in front of the republic base please. Thanks and have a nice day.
Had some of the best pvpers on my server. Basically, whichever side got the ball in the middle when the other scored, went on to score again. There were so many sith sorcs pulling the ball carrier it was impossible to stop them, so everyone just waited at the ball spawn when they scored to see who could click the fastest, there was very little actual fighting, It was insane. I don't think I can even pug anymore after doing a full day of pvp with my guild, it's just unbearable.
But alas...dailies....
Minerva_SC on
"If a cherry pie filled cape is wrong, I don't want to be right.
I'm dead serious."
There was a reasonable war going on today on ilum, basically old timers guild from the republic found 24 people and held central for a good bit of time i wound up with 76 kills towards my weekly (150... seriously?)
it still degenerated into a slide show for me.... just terrible
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AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
Yea, Ilum was fun today on Shadowlands with Fexhie and Co leading the group. At one point, our Republic Op faced down and held the Imps who outnumbered us 3 to 1 on a ramp near central for 5+ minutes simply due to the terrain advantage (it masked our numbers). 132 kills during that Op, was quite happy, and there were some really nice Op v Op battles going on.
ArchonexNo hard feelings, right?Registered Userregular
edited January 2012
The problem with faction V faction PVP is that developers have a serious aversion to balancing it with third party features. WoW tried it in wintersprings with a quick band-aid when it started to get really bad, but it really wasn't that balanced, nor was it fun to get curb-stomped by a guy with so much health and strength that he could take on four people at once if he wasn't stunlocked down.
Like I posted before, it's one of the reasons why Warhammer Online could have been a legendary, genre-breaking game. They were going to make it so that the underpopulated faction received NPC support in the form of NPC's defending and attacking locations according to the scale of the imbalance. They basically took how Rift worked in mid beta, with the Rifts regularly disgorging hordes of enemies that would zerg and take over hubs on a scale that they don't do at release, and even send out assassins to assassinate players if they tried to ignore the rifts while questing, and applied the concept to PVP, years before it ever existed.
IE: A slight imbalance leads to more troops manning the ramparts/maybe they automatically man the wall guns/whatever until a player takes them over. A huge imbalance could lead to a roving band of twenty or so chaos champions rolling into the zone to fuck up the shit of the guys who are camping the entrance to the other side, making sure they always stay underpopped until they get bored and leave. The inbetween point could include one side recruiting a giant to rampage along with the group, warbands and cults assaulting objectives themselves, and more.
In other words, the catch-phrase of the game, war is everywhere, was very much a thing. It wasn't just going to be you, and your suspiciously heroic looking buddies duking it out in the lake. You were essentially the officers in Dynasty Warriors, and all the NPC's were the fodder, or other AI officers.
It was a remarkable idea, and had quite a bit of potential to fix the issues that come up with population imbalances. However, Paul Barnett is the lead developer. He's very much a marketer, and not coordinator or team leader. You may recognize him from this video:
Several years after he lead Warhammer into bombing at launch, lying through his teeth to a new market over in Korea, that obviously didn't believe a damn word of what he's saying. The guy's a textbook case of a hack that has no idea what he is doing in the industry outside of making the initial sales.
PvP in this game is C+/B- in my book. I'm enjoying it fine enough, but it's not going to keep me subscribed. Battlemaster grind is bleh, I don't think I'm going to make it to 60 and I'm fairly hardcore. Since I joined a PvP guild I win 80-90% of my WZ when we join as a premade (and before I won like 30%). Warzone medal farming gets kinda absurd hen you consider some lengths you go for it. (I.E. setting myself to 1HP before the round starts then running to a expertise buff and hitting all my adrenals/trinks/cd to try to hit a 7.5k heal).
Honestly though, its hard to complain when I can't think of any real solutions besides obvious things like random loot bags are dumb dumb dumb. Just as dumb that it takes less time to get 8 pieces of tier 2 than it does to get 8 pieces of tier 1??
Expertise is a dumb stat, but the bitching about it is so far from the truth. Yes, it's unfair to new people, but most people have 5+ pieces of pvp gear, expertise is even among most players, it is not the reason you are winning or losing.
In summary, they either need to add something that is better than other MMOs offer for their endgame either in PvP or PvE, or add something that is original. Right now it's not original, and it's not as good as other options. I'm still playing based on momentum, I may renew 1 more month, but if nothing gets added by then I'll have lost interest.
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CorehealerThe ApothecaryThe softer edge of the universe.Registered Userregular
But once we take off the rose-colored glasses, doesn't it always end up being 1) The faction that dominates, 2) The other faction that shows up but always loses and 3)The faction both factions laugh at and say, "Thank god we're not those fuckers"?
I mean, you might as well name them the faction that always wins, the faction that always loses and the faction that is so horribly broken no one can figure out why the hell anyone could possibly subject themselves to it.
Having played DAoC for many, many years I don't recall this being an issue. Because there was 1 faction that was the clear winner? The other 2 would just gang the fuck up on them.
See, I hear people say this all the time, but that was never my DAoC experience. My experience went more like: Midgard was #1, we'd be fighting them on our Alb toons, then Hibernia would run up behind and ass fuck us, everytime.
I don't ever recall us having any kind of alliance thing going with the Hibs. There were times when Midgard was the one that got sandwiched between, but that was usually just because of placement on the battlefield (ie, the Hibs happened to charge up closer to the mids than us.)
What I do recall clearly from DAoC was having servers that were known as "oh, that's a Midgard server. That's a Hib server." etc.
Yeah I never saw that issue on my server. Relics changed hands frequently. Once Darkness Falls was added that shit started moving around quick.
But, alas, no game has recaptured that and it's not looking like anyone's going to bother making a successor. They just want to ape WoW's PvP in spite of it being largely awful.
Guild Wars 2.
3 servers, rather then factions, battle it out for control of a large inter-dimensional map filled with keeps, towers and resource nodes. Lasts for 2 weeks, winning server gains rewards and buffs for the participants and their server as a whole, and everyone is rewarded based on their accomplishments. After the two weeks end, the servers are swapped with new ones and the battle begins again, in perpetuity. That's their solution to open world PvP and it appears to me to be a good way to handle PvP like DAoC did. They also have a structured PvP system including Arenas and Battlegrounds.
3 faction systems can work when, rather then racial and factional imbalances causing a 3 way to turn into a 1 faction fucks the others situation or some other form of clusterfuck, all the servers are balanced and motivated by a collective community and server pride that isn't based on any race or class. You want your server to win, and your whole server is united to fight the others. As long as server populations are balanced and similarly populated servers fight each other, the system should work.
Why do people preach upcoming games claims? It's all make believe until tried and tested by the internet at large. If swtor did all it claimed people wouldnt be bitching about it in forums. GW2 may be great, may be another failed attempt, tired of hearing people preach like its the vanguard of a golden age when it hasnt been released or accomplished anything.
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CorehealerThe ApothecaryThe softer edge of the universe.Registered Userregular
Why do people preach upcoming games claims? It's all make believe until tried and tested by the internet at large. If swtor did all it claimed people wouldnt be bitching about it in forums. GW2 may be great, may be another failed attempt, tired of hearing people preach like its the vanguard of a golden age when it hasnt been released or accomplished anything.
We have proof that the game has these features in it and we have seen the game in action on numerous occasions over the last year and a half. No, we don't know for certain what it's final form will be until release. But I'm not saying this stuff in a void.
Here is a detailed example of what to expect in this interview.
That seems like a fine evolution of DAoC's methods, and something that should have been done a long time ago. And anything's better then SWTOR's mess of PvP at this point.
The coming soon trailer for swtor specifically made me angry because it's mostly just a guy talking and concept art
Which is worth nothing.
Alucard6986 on
PSN: Ubeltanzer Blizzard: Ubel#1258
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CorehealerThe ApothecaryThe softer edge of the universe.Registered Userregular
Well I can't argue with that because we all have good reason to be wary of marketing and hype trains. To me personally, ArenaNet is more genuine and personal in their work with GW2 and the way they present the game to us. I'm willing to look past my own experiences with MMOs not living up to expectations in order to give them a chance to wow me. If they fail, I'm done with the genre; If they succeed, it's good for everyone who wants this kind of PvP and everything else they want to do different.
I was simply responding to Keenbean's desire for a DAoC style open world PvP in the wake of SWTOR's failure to deliver. Take that and GW2 hype for what you will.
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ArchonexNo hard feelings, right?Registered Userregular
The coming soon trailer for swtor specifically made me angry because it's mostly just a guy talking and concept art
Which is worth nothing.
You must really hate MMO's nowadays. Because pretty much every decent MMO does that as a showcase for upcoming features.
People are more likely to watch a trendy video telling them what's coming, rather then page through a four page long document on the forums in a sub-forum specifically for game announcements.
It's almost a given that GW2 will have better pvp than SWTOR, it's kind of a big deal in Guild Wars where (now, breath with me) it was just an afterthought in SWTOR
If Guild Wars 2's pvp isn't better than SWTOR's, then guild wars 2 will be the biggest flop since age of conan or APB, because MMOs have the casual, the endgame, and the pvp.
SWTOR pretty firmly dominates for the casual, it's a great altaholic game. Endgame is a tossup. PVP is clearly the weakest, and if GW2 wants to seriously steal a chunk of the "not wow" pie, PVP is where it's going to come from
override367 on
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ArchonexNo hard feelings, right?Registered Userregular
It's almost a given that GW2 will have better pvp than SWTOR, it's kind of a big deal in Guild Wars where (now, breath with me) it was just an afterthought in SWTOR
If Guild Wars 2's pvp isn't better than SWTOR's, then guild wars 2 will be the biggest flop since age of conan or APB, because MMOs have the casual, the endgame, and the pvp.
SWTOR pretty firmly dominates for the casual, it's a great altaholic game. Endgame is a tossup. PVP is clearly the weakest, and if GW2 wants to seriously steal a chunk of the "not wow" pie, PVP is where it's going to come from
I always thought GW's PVP was pretty shitty. PVP dominated by instanced matches against small groups does not make for a fun game. I play MMO's for the massively part. If I wanted to play in a self contained atmosphere consistently, and it was a deciding factor, i'd play Battlefield or some other sort of game that does it better. Any game can do that, and when you get down to it, it's just how refined/not buggy the game is, if you want to compete that way, and what setting you'd prefer. Personally, I prefer blasters and space swords.
I mean, you can do the same shit you can do to ruin PVP for other people in other games. It just takes more time and effort. All the crap that plagues normal games still exists, like FOTM builds, and such, still.
I'm also not too wowed by some of the PVE content they've showcased. I've seen it before. They're just dressing it up like it's new to the genre.
I always thought GW's PVP was pretty shitty. PVP dominated by instanced matches against small groups does not make for a fun game. I play MMO's for the massively part.
GW2 is hyping 500 player, two week long battles that are Server vs Server vs Server in an instanced zone.
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CorehealerThe ApothecaryThe softer edge of the universe.Registered Userregular
I always thought GW's PVP was pretty shitty. PVP dominated by instanced matches against small groups does not make for a fun game. I play MMO's for the massively part.
GW2 is hyping 500 player, two week long battles that are Server vs Server vs Server in an instanced zone.
That being alongside traditional PvP forms like Battlegrounds (google Battle of Kyhlo) and 5 man team Arenas.
My disdain for the Official Forums - PvP Subforum grows. It is endless whines about shit that isn't even true. Terrible, terrible players whining about shit that is easily countered (Tracer Missle / Grav Round being a favorite right now, along with Sorc/Sage Absorb shield). They completely ignore legitimate issues like Warzone AFKers.
It makes me so sad. And so frustrated when I get two assholes that just auto-run into a damn wall all fucking game and we lose because of it.
Yeah, it is sad. Tracer Missile spam is hilariously easy to shut down and line of sight, I learned that the hard way. And the shield is only good against uncoordinated teams who aren't focus firing. It is really frustrating though when you see the entire enemy team running out of the gate shielded.
Especially as a Jedi Sage. Locking them out of one of their key abilities for up to 6 seconds is pretty cool, especially since you still have an actual stun to stack on top of it.
I always thought GW's PVP was pretty shitty. PVP dominated by instanced matches against small groups does not make for a fun game. I play MMO's for the massively part.
GW2 is hyping 500 player, two week long battles that are Server vs Server vs Server in an instanced zone.
I'll believe it when I see it. Unless they add in a ton of stuff that most games, GW2 included, need to balance large-scale PVP, it'll most likely end up being a clusterfuck for most people.
It's almost a given that GW2 will have better pvp than SWTOR, it's kind of a big deal in Guild Wars where (now, breath with me) it was just an afterthought in SWTOR
If Guild Wars 2's pvp isn't better than SWTOR's, then guild wars 2 will be the biggest flop since age of conan or APB, because MMOs have the casual, the endgame, and the pvp.
SWTOR pretty firmly dominates for the casual, it's a great altaholic game. Endgame is a tossup. PVP is clearly the weakest, and if GW2 wants to seriously steal a chunk of the "not wow" pie, PVP is where it's going to come from
I always thought GW's PVP was pretty shitty. PVP dominated by instanced matches against small groups does not make for a fun game. I play MMO's for the massively part. If I wanted to play in a self contained atmosphere consistently, and it was a deciding factor, i'd play Battlefield or some other sort of game that does it better. Any game can do that, and when you get down to it, it's just how refined/not buggy the game is, if you want to compete that way, and what setting you'd prefer. Personally, I prefer blasters and space swords.
I mean, you can do the same shit you can do to ruin PVP for other people in other games. It just takes more time and effort. All the crap that plagues normal games still exists, like FOTM builds, and such, still.
Just because you don't like small instanced PvP matches doesn't mean GW's version of them wasn't really well done.
It's almost a given that GW2 will have better pvp than SWTOR, it's kind of a big deal in Guild Wars where (now, breath with me) it was just an afterthought in SWTOR
If Guild Wars 2's pvp isn't better than SWTOR's, then guild wars 2 will be the biggest flop since age of conan or APB, because MMOs have the casual, the endgame, and the pvp.
SWTOR pretty firmly dominates for the casual, it's a great altaholic game. Endgame is a tossup. PVP is clearly the weakest, and if GW2 wants to seriously steal a chunk of the "not wow" pie, PVP is where it's going to come from
I always thought GW's PVP was pretty shitty. PVP dominated by instanced matches against small groups does not make for a fun game. I play MMO's for the massively part. If I wanted to play in a self contained atmosphere consistently, and it was a deciding factor, i'd play Battlefield or some other sort of game that does it better. Any game can do that, and when you get down to it, it's just how refined/not buggy the game is, if you want to compete that way, and what setting you'd prefer. Personally, I prefer blasters and space swords.
I mean, you can do the same shit you can do to ruin PVP for other people in other games. It just takes more time and effort. All the crap that plagues normal games still exists, like FOTM builds, and such, still.
Just because you don't like small instanced PvP matches doesn't mean GW's version of them wasn't really well done.
Er, wasn't it just "Here's a small space, fight!"
I mean, that's not bad but it's certainly not a triumph of design.
AlazullYour body is not a temple, it's an amusement park.Enjoy the ride.Registered Userregular
edited January 2012
You know, I was thinking about Ilum on the walk to work today, and I had some interesting ideas to share with you guys.
First of all, they need to add more content, period. Whether it be spawn points that each side can capture to supply points that cause a wave of elite NPCs, at the moment Ilum could be a straight line from each base with larger areas for the assaults and no one would really notice the difference. There needs to be a reason for all that space.
Second, they should make it so that you can only assault the base if you control all three of the center objectives. Still make it so you can assault the three points in the middle in any order you want to, but perhaps make it so you only get two transports instead of three if you don't own the nearest objective. Makes it more like a real battle, also makes for strategy in the grand scheme of things. I.E. an Op couldn't just hold the front, they'd also have to scout and defend other objectives. But you can only take the enemy base if you hold all three.
Third, make it so the daily and the weekly are tied to objectives, but change it up from what it used to be. The daily should be your faction holding all points, which anyone could tell you isn't impossible to do in a concentrated hour or two even if there is resistance. The weekly however, should be holding Ilum for three hours total. I don't think it would be impossible for the game to track this, as when your faction owns Ilum you get a buff that doesn't seem to diminish. So, over the course of the week, the total time you have that buff counts against the three hours you need. This makes things interesting as both sides will need to do this, so battle will naturally happen to achieve said goal, but it also won't fuck over people that play in off hours and such.
Fourth, keep the daily for 150 player kills, and make the rewards for it better than the objective weekly. Whether it be more bags, a significant boost to your valor, or even crafting rewards (i.e. the stuff you'd get from running hard modes and operations) to give people who prefer PvP to PvE options on how to gear their characters. This way, you promote the people who want to get into big battles without enforcing it too hard. I don't think all of us are huge PvP fans, but some people are down for it so rewarding an aggressive player is totally valid.
This isn't to get into things I think they need to do to rework PvP in general, such as reworking how expertise actually works (a sorcerer/sage should only get +dmg and +healing, no dmg reduction for example) and also how certain abilities work, but I think even if they only adopted the second and third ideas Ilum would be a lot better in general, especially on servers that either A.) have a popuilation imbalance or B.) have a side that doesn't engage in PvP.
TL;DR Ilum is fucked so hard right now that the designers need to listen to my drunk ramblings.
EDIT: Also, all bags should be brought in line with what they did for battlemaster bags. The fact that it's actually harder to achieve lower tier gear should be a clear indication that your idea was wrong. I don't mind the randomness, I don't mind the time sink, I do mind it being easier to get the best shit than it is to get the (comparatively) worst.
Alazull on
User name Alazull on Steam, PSN, Nintenders, Epic, etc.
I was thinking about ilum as well a few different points
1> 2x as many boxes at central, current number of boxes at north and south
2> controlling all objectives on ilum for 5 minutes will spawn X champion mobs of the opposing faction, requiring 6-8 poorly geared 50s to take down
2A champ mobs of opposing faction grant pvp wide buffs to players of that faction (the usual 5% health, 5% dmg, 5% crit, 5% to all stats that stacks with player buffs)
2B champ mobs will give 5 pvp points for being killed and general elite lvl mob loot (ie nothing special)
2C champ mobs will spawn in caves, inside houses and other out of the way locations with a very small leash radius to prevent them from becoming ganking machines
3> boxes give a random # of armorments 1-3
4> flipping a location still gives 1 pt
5> defending a location for X minutes grants 1 point (im thinking 2 minutes maybe 90 seconds)
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Having played DAoC for many, many years I don't recall this being an issue. Because there was 1 faction that was the clear winner? The other 2 would just gang the fuck up on them.
3DS: 1650-8480-6786
Switch: SW-0653-8208-4705
See, I hear people say this all the time, but that was never my DAoC experience. My experience went more like: Midgard was #1, we'd be fighting them on our Alb toons, then Hibernia would run up behind and ass fuck us, everytime.
I don't ever recall us having any kind of alliance thing going with the Hibs. There were times when Midgard was the one that got sandwiched between, but that was usually just because of placement on the battlefield (ie, the Hibs happened to charge up closer to the mids than us.)
What I do recall clearly from DAoC was having servers that were known as "oh, that's a Midgard server. That's a Hib server." etc.
Yeah I never saw that issue on my server. Relics changed hands frequently. Once Darkness Falls was added that shit started moving around quick.
But, alas, no game has recaptured that and it's not looking like anyone's going to bother making a successor. They just want to ape WoW's PvP in spite of it being largely awful.
3DS: 1650-8480-6786
Switch: SW-0653-8208-4705
In the big Zerg VS Zerg gameplay thats generally how it went on every server. But sometimes you'd have one realm that had most of the relics, and both of the other two would go try and steal em back in the same night.
I didn't play into the first expansion, so a lot of my experience was roaming Emain Mach as a death squad, and running up the the Albion Fort every now and then to score some realm points if Hibs weren't out. I played Midgard on a server where it was like 35% Midgard, 45% Albion and 20% Hibernia. Midgard had a majority of the better PvPers. Hibernia had a group or two of really, really good PvPers that would decimate large groups thanks to the Bards Mind wipe insta interrupt -> Mass Mez they'd always get off. Having the run speed buff + the only instant cast ranged mass interrupt + Ranged mass Mez made their Bards really really powerful in small vs large groups play. Albion just had the Numbers.
A few of my friends stayed throughout all of DAoCs lifetime, and they had a great time in expansions. Relics on the server would change hands often. Hibernia stayed underpopulated but they could snag a relic from time to time. Not really anything resembling the 3 faction rule you layed out.
It makes me so sad. And so frustrated when I get two assholes that just auto-run into a damn wall all fucking game and we lose because of it.
GW is a good example of doing it right, because there were gear differences, but extremely minor ones, and the primary rewards were cosmetic. WOW is the best example of doing it wrong, because, and I'm not sure if anyone tried to do this, if you PVPed a week or so before WOTLK, enemies could pretty much beat you while AFK. I would go OOM in my max level blues before killing a full epic PVPer, and that's stupid enough to deserve seppuku. That, and skill unlocks were both more fun and more fair to others, as while there were in practice better and worse skills, you never fought someone who just did x2 more damage than you do.
Yeah, it is sad. Tracer Missile spam is hilariously easy to shut down and line of sight, I learned that the hard way. And the shield is only good against uncoordinated teams who aren't focus firing. It is really frustrating though when you see the entire enemy team running out of the gate shielded.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
I also like Taunting Mercenaries that are bending over to Tracer Missle someone on my team. Hoping they say things to themselves like "But I read on the forums Tracer Missle hits for at least 2500 every time! Mine is only critting for 2000! this is bullshit!"
Taking objectives out of order isn't terrible if you have a zone that funnels people more.
Illum doesn't have that.
It felt like a great zone for World PvP. I'd fucking hate it if you had to capture the objectives in order, 1 at a time. That would fucking suck and it would just always be Zerg vs Zerg. With the way it is, it actually promotes breaking up into smaller OPs groups up to 16 and taking Areas at the same time or within a short amount of time from eachother.
And the zone isn't that big. It's a pretty perfect size IMO. It's no bigger than the Frontiers from DAoC (smaller that all the frontier zones for one realm I think). You can get from one Objective to another on a 90% mount in like 90 seconds. How small do you guys want the place?
It sounds like half the people complain because they can't do anything as a single person running around, and another group complain because it isn't Zerg vs Zerg enough. What the fuck man? Organize your guild into multiple 8-16 man groups, start taking objectives and communicate. Lead the opposition Zerg on a goose chase with a small scouting party. When they start to lose objectives small groups of their zerg will splinter off into shit you can easily dispatch as multiple groups go to different locations. If they just move as one giant Zerg, then your 2-3 teams will always be 2-3 Objectives ahead so they HAVE to split into smaller groups to keep up with you. Use some Guerilla Warfare tactics!
Apparently this is fucking impossible for people to do, and being camped/camping at the republic base is much prefered.
If you are imperial, then just sit in front of the republic base please. Thanks and have a nice day.
Had some of the best pvpers on my server. Basically, whichever side got the ball in the middle when the other scored, went on to score again. There were so many sith sorcs pulling the ball carrier it was impossible to stop them, so everyone just waited at the ball spawn when they scored to see who could click the fastest, there was very little actual fighting, It was insane. I don't think I can even pug anymore after doing a full day of pvp with my guild, it's just unbearable.
But alas...dailies....
I'm dead serious."
Ya... thats why I complain that its way to fucking huge.
I haven't gone to the pvp zone for a while now, its just boring and stupid.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
it still degenerated into a slide show for me.... just terrible
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Like I posted before, it's one of the reasons why Warhammer Online could have been a legendary, genre-breaking game. They were going to make it so that the underpopulated faction received NPC support in the form of NPC's defending and attacking locations according to the scale of the imbalance. They basically took how Rift worked in mid beta, with the Rifts regularly disgorging hordes of enemies that would zerg and take over hubs on a scale that they don't do at release, and even send out assassins to assassinate players if they tried to ignore the rifts while questing, and applied the concept to PVP, years before it ever existed.
IE: A slight imbalance leads to more troops manning the ramparts/maybe they automatically man the wall guns/whatever until a player takes them over. A huge imbalance could lead to a roving band of twenty or so chaos champions rolling into the zone to fuck up the shit of the guys who are camping the entrance to the other side, making sure they always stay underpopped until they get bored and leave. The inbetween point could include one side recruiting a giant to rampage along with the group, warbands and cults assaulting objectives themselves, and more.
In other words, the catch-phrase of the game, war is everywhere, was very much a thing. It wasn't just going to be you, and your suspiciously heroic looking buddies duking it out in the lake. You were essentially the officers in Dynasty Warriors, and all the NPC's were the fodder, or other AI officers.
It was a remarkable idea, and had quite a bit of potential to fix the issues that come up with population imbalances. However, Paul Barnett is the lead developer. He's very much a marketer, and not coordinator or team leader. You may recognize him from this video:
Several years after he lead Warhammer into bombing at launch, lying through his teeth to a new market over in Korea, that obviously didn't believe a damn word of what he's saying. The guy's a textbook case of a hack that has no idea what he is doing in the industry outside of making the initial sales.
They don't understand what I am saying? Well, I better pretend I am talking to a baby/dog. Then maybe they will understand better.
Honestly though, its hard to complain when I can't think of any real solutions besides obvious things like random loot bags are dumb dumb dumb. Just as dumb that it takes less time to get 8 pieces of tier 2 than it does to get 8 pieces of tier 1??
Expertise is a dumb stat, but the bitching about it is so far from the truth. Yes, it's unfair to new people, but most people have 5+ pieces of pvp gear, expertise is even among most players, it is not the reason you are winning or losing.
In summary, they either need to add something that is better than other MMOs offer for their endgame either in PvP or PvE, or add something that is original. Right now it's not original, and it's not as good as other options. I'm still playing based on momentum, I may renew 1 more month, but if nothing gets added by then I'll have lost interest.
Guild Wars 2.
3 servers, rather then factions, battle it out for control of a large inter-dimensional map filled with keeps, towers and resource nodes. Lasts for 2 weeks, winning server gains rewards and buffs for the participants and their server as a whole, and everyone is rewarded based on their accomplishments. After the two weeks end, the servers are swapped with new ones and the battle begins again, in perpetuity. That's their solution to open world PvP and it appears to me to be a good way to handle PvP like DAoC did. They also have a structured PvP system including Arenas and Battlegrounds.
3 faction systems can work when, rather then racial and factional imbalances causing a 3 way to turn into a 1 faction fucks the others situation or some other form of clusterfuck, all the servers are balanced and motivated by a collective community and server pride that isn't based on any race or class. You want your server to win, and your whole server is united to fight the others. As long as server populations are balanced and similarly populated servers fight each other, the system should work.
We have proof that the game has these features in it and we have seen the game in action on numerous occasions over the last year and a half. No, we don't know for certain what it's final form will be until release. But I'm not saying this stuff in a void.
Here is a detailed example of what to expect in this interview.
That seems like a fine evolution of DAoC's methods, and something that should have been done a long time ago. And anything's better then SWTOR's mess of PvP at this point.
Agreein with the disregard for hype.
The coming soon trailer for swtor specifically made me angry because it's mostly just a guy talking and concept art
Which is worth nothing.
I was simply responding to Keenbean's desire for a DAoC style open world PvP in the wake of SWTOR's failure to deliver. Take that and GW2 hype for what you will.
You must really hate MMO's nowadays. Because pretty much every decent MMO does that as a showcase for upcoming features.
People are more likely to watch a trendy video telling them what's coming, rather then page through a four page long document on the forums in a sub-forum specifically for game announcements.
If Guild Wars 2's pvp isn't better than SWTOR's, then guild wars 2 will be the biggest flop since age of conan or APB, because MMOs have the casual, the endgame, and the pvp.
SWTOR pretty firmly dominates for the casual, it's a great altaholic game. Endgame is a tossup. PVP is clearly the weakest, and if GW2 wants to seriously steal a chunk of the "not wow" pie, PVP is where it's going to come from
I always thought GW's PVP was pretty shitty. PVP dominated by instanced matches against small groups does not make for a fun game. I play MMO's for the massively part. If I wanted to play in a self contained atmosphere consistently, and it was a deciding factor, i'd play Battlefield or some other sort of game that does it better. Any game can do that, and when you get down to it, it's just how refined/not buggy the game is, if you want to compete that way, and what setting you'd prefer. Personally, I prefer blasters and space swords.
I mean, you can do the same shit you can do to ruin PVP for other people in other games. It just takes more time and effort. All the crap that plagues normal games still exists, like FOTM builds, and such, still.
I'm also not too wowed by some of the PVE content they've showcased. I've seen it before. They're just dressing it up like it's new to the genre.
GW2 is hyping 500 player, two week long battles that are Server vs Server vs Server in an instanced zone.
That being alongside traditional PvP forms like Battlegrounds (google Battle of Kyhlo) and 5 man team Arenas.
Especially as a Jedi Sage. Locking them out of one of their key abilities for up to 6 seconds is pretty cool, especially since you still have an actual stun to stack on top of it.
I'm happy with it for now. Their gear system is all dicked up though.
I'll believe it when I see it. Unless they add in a ton of stuff that most games, GW2 included, need to balance large-scale PVP, it'll most likely end up being a clusterfuck for most people.
Just because you don't like small instanced PvP matches doesn't mean GW's version of them wasn't really well done.
Er, wasn't it just "Here's a small space, fight!"
I mean, that's not bad but it's certainly not a triumph of design.
SniperGuyGaming on PSN / SniperGuy710 on Xbone Live
This man has the right of it. If your curious about GW PvP, go take a look at it's wiki and the GW campaign called Factions.
SniperGuyGaming on PSN / SniperGuy710 on Xbone Live
First of all, they need to add more content, period. Whether it be spawn points that each side can capture to supply points that cause a wave of elite NPCs, at the moment Ilum could be a straight line from each base with larger areas for the assaults and no one would really notice the difference. There needs to be a reason for all that space.
Second, they should make it so that you can only assault the base if you control all three of the center objectives. Still make it so you can assault the three points in the middle in any order you want to, but perhaps make it so you only get two transports instead of three if you don't own the nearest objective. Makes it more like a real battle, also makes for strategy in the grand scheme of things. I.E. an Op couldn't just hold the front, they'd also have to scout and defend other objectives. But you can only take the enemy base if you hold all three.
Third, make it so the daily and the weekly are tied to objectives, but change it up from what it used to be. The daily should be your faction holding all points, which anyone could tell you isn't impossible to do in a concentrated hour or two even if there is resistance. The weekly however, should be holding Ilum for three hours total. I don't think it would be impossible for the game to track this, as when your faction owns Ilum you get a buff that doesn't seem to diminish. So, over the course of the week, the total time you have that buff counts against the three hours you need. This makes things interesting as both sides will need to do this, so battle will naturally happen to achieve said goal, but it also won't fuck over people that play in off hours and such.
Fourth, keep the daily for 150 player kills, and make the rewards for it better than the objective weekly. Whether it be more bags, a significant boost to your valor, or even crafting rewards (i.e. the stuff you'd get from running hard modes and operations) to give people who prefer PvP to PvE options on how to gear their characters. This way, you promote the people who want to get into big battles without enforcing it too hard. I don't think all of us are huge PvP fans, but some people are down for it so rewarding an aggressive player is totally valid.
This isn't to get into things I think they need to do to rework PvP in general, such as reworking how expertise actually works (a sorcerer/sage should only get +dmg and +healing, no dmg reduction for example) and also how certain abilities work, but I think even if they only adopted the second and third ideas Ilum would be a lot better in general, especially on servers that either A.) have a popuilation imbalance or B.) have a side that doesn't engage in PvP.
TL;DR Ilum is fucked so hard right now that the designers need to listen to my drunk ramblings.
EDIT: Also, all bags should be brought in line with what they did for battlemaster bags. The fact that it's actually harder to achieve lower tier gear should be a clear indication that your idea was wrong. I don't mind the randomness, I don't mind the time sink, I do mind it being easier to get the best shit than it is to get the (comparatively) worst.
1> 2x as many boxes at central, current number of boxes at north and south
2> controlling all objectives on ilum for 5 minutes will spawn X champion mobs of the opposing faction, requiring 6-8 poorly geared 50s to take down
2A champ mobs of opposing faction grant pvp wide buffs to players of that faction (the usual 5% health, 5% dmg, 5% crit, 5% to all stats that stacks with player buffs)
2B champ mobs will give 5 pvp points for being killed and general elite lvl mob loot (ie nothing special)
2C champ mobs will spawn in caves, inside houses and other out of the way locations with a very small leash radius to prevent them from becoming ganking machines
3> boxes give a random # of armorments 1-3
4> flipping a location still gives 1 pt
5> defending a location for X minutes grants 1 point (im thinking 2 minutes maybe 90 seconds)