Also a lot of people are invoking other issues from WoW like PvP design as a whole or the design of the Paladin class, and it's important to realize that these are design problems that are in a completely different stratosphere than something like whether or not identification scrolls should have cast times. Big picture design problems like the Paladin can be notoriously squirrely and hard to figure out (as evidenced by the history of the class) because there is just no clear cut direction and the mechanics at hand are so complex. For a lot of the things being discussed in this thread, however, the issues are small enough that it's trivial to iterate on it a few times and simply use the one that people liked best. You can find the closest thing to an objectively "good" design pretty quickly.
I am guessing that your enthusiasm for salvaging white items might wane after doing so constantly for 50 hours.
Possibly. However, I've put close to that into playing through different characters in different builds of the beta so far, and it still feels like clicking through my inventory changing junk items into a useful resource is time well spent. It gets me useful crafting materials for my current char and/or my alt at the same time as it clears out clutter from my inventory, freeing up space to pick up more things.
That being said, it also seems like at a certain point you'd have plenty of raw material in your stash to support all of your crafting needs, and so depending upon the value of gold / usefulness of the GAH, I might switch to selling white items or maaaybe just leave them on the ground (although that's tough for me in this sort of game. I like to pick up everything I can. Although I have been able to avoid picking up all of the brooms/pots/etc in skyrim, so maybe there's hope I can be discriminating in a diablo game, too.) The cauldron hasn't been implemented in any beta build that I've tested, so I've never had the option of "selling" from inventory out in the field.
I'm not sure I agree with the idea that having items that are actively disappointing to see drop helps make the useful items seem like more of a reward. But we'll see. I have nothing in particular to base it on except that I think I'd still either (a) still pick up everything and be irritated that I "have" to go back to town so often to sell, or (b) leave stuff on the ground and have my must-pick-up-everything OCD bother me.
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
Look, all I'm saying is that I am a fan of statistics. I'm very sorry if some people find the idea that their personal opinion is worthless to be an affront, but "It worked for me in Titan Quest" is just not compelling. I am not trying to be the Blizzard Defense Force guy, but there is only one party here that actually has the real data on what people do and don't like, and if they are making these changes it is only sensible to assume they have a reason.
Actually, there's a fair number of companies with that sort of data. You can also gauge it on things like the popularity of mods (the download figures for mods for D2 and Torchlight say a fair whack).
Another issue is that one would like to assume that because they're doing research they're drawing the correct conclusion from that research, and attributing the correct causes to their issues... but, that isn't always the case (both for us and for Blizzard).
The reason may not be terribly compelling to some of you, but here's another touchy idea; Blizzard is mostly developing this game for the type of people who do not actually have strong opinions about design, and would likely consider this whole discussion a farce.
So because they don't care about the discussion, they will not care about the outcome? This argument is pretty fallacious dude. 8(
I mean, are you saying that if two chefs debate a recipe, it doesn't matter what recipe they decide on at the end so long as they serve the result to people who don't care about the recipe?
All I'm saying is that I have a pretty good track record of saying, "X is dumb and should be changed" with Blizzard games, and then 1-5 years later, Blizzard comes to that same realization and addresses it (or tries to).
Look, all I'm saying is that I am a fan of statistics. I'm very sorry if some people find the idea that their personal opinion is worthless to be an affront, but "It worked for me in Titan Quest" is just not compelling. I am not trying to be the Blizzard Defense Force guy, but there is only one party here that actually has the real data on what people do and don't like, and if they are making these changes it is only sensible to assume they have a reason. The reason may not be terribly compelling to some of you, but here's another touchy idea; Blizzard is mostly developing this game for the type of people who do not actually have strong opinions about design, and would likely consider this whole discussion a farce.
You have a talent for phrasing simple ideas in remarkably abrasive ways.
All you appear to be actually saying is "Blizzard knows best". It's a valid opinion to hold in your head, nothing wrong with that. But then you actually have nothing to say about any aspect of development. If we were all to feel exactly the same as you, we should just shut down the thread, because there's nothing to talk about! Just have faith!
All we are here is a bunch of guys shooting the shit about things we find interesting, whether in a positive or negative light, about what Blizzard is doing. Please stop trying to tell people that they shouldn't express opinions.
I mean, are you saying that if two chefs debate a recipe, it doesn't matter what recipe they decide on at the end so long as they serve the result to people who don't care about the recipe?
I'm saying something more like McDonald's doesn't give a shit when a gourmand turns his nose up at their product. They are trying to make burgers with mass appeal and the average consumer is mostly oblivious in the first place.
All we are here is a bunch of guys shooting the shit about things we find interesting, whether in a positive or negative light, about what Blizzard is doing. Please stop trying to tell people that they shouldn't express opinions.
I'm not telling anyone to not express themselves. I'm playing devil's advocate and apparently it looks more like I'm kicking down sandcastles, so I guess It's time to do something else.
ID is awesome. It gives the same affect of having id scrolls, except now you don't need to waste inventory room.
For those who say there is no satisfaction of seeing an un-id item, and it should just be id'd from the start well, fuck you, because I love the thrill of seeing a gold item and going "oh boy oh boy what will it be!?" but not getting to see right away because I might be fighting enemies still. It's a little surprise every time.
I've slacked on following D3 news for a while. What's the thread title in reference to?
There was a major systems update posted by Blizzard, describing some (semi-) large changes to the game systems. If you jump back a page or two there is a link to it. The patch reflecting these changes is out either yesterday, or maybe today? Not sure on that, haven't fired up D3 in a bit.
ID is awesome. It gives the same affect of having id scrolls, except now you don't need to waste inventory room.
For those who say there is no satisfaction of seeing an un-id item, and it should just be id'd from the start well, fuck you, because I love the thrill of seeing a gold item and going "oh boy oh boy what will it be!?" but not getting to see right away because I might be fighting enemies still. It's a little surprise every time.
I don't think anyone is talking about being able to know what an item is while it's still on the ground, so you seem to be misinterpreting what people are saying.
ID is awesome. It gives the same affect of having id scrolls, except now you don't need to waste inventory room.
For those who say there is no satisfaction of seeing an un-id item, and it should just be id'd from the start well, fuck you, because I love the thrill of seeing a gold item and going "oh boy oh boy what will it be!?" but not getting to see right away because I might be fighting enemies still. It's a little surprise every time.
I don't think anyone is talking about being able to know what an item is while it's still on the ground, so you seem to be misinterpreting what people are saying.
ID is awesome. It gives the same affect of having id scrolls, except now you don't need to waste inventory room.
For those who say there is no satisfaction of seeing an un-id item, and it should just be id'd from the start well, fuck you, because I love the thrill of seeing a gold item and going "oh boy oh boy what will it be!?" but not getting to see right away because I might be fighting enemies still. It's a little surprise every time.
I don't think anyone is talking about being able to know what an item is while it's still on the ground, so you seem to be misinterpreting what people are saying.
Identifying items has no purpose in ARPGs. Even this purely psychological purpose they claim is pure nonsense.
He still didn't explicitly say that items should be named on the ground (and that's all pre-identification would do for you, since you can't see the stats of stuff on the ground). If you read through, you'll note that the context of the discussion has been "how and when should items become identified once they hit your inventory?"
Hell, that anticipation you describe only applied to a few items anyway (rings/amulets, mainly). When you saw that Gold Shako on the ground, you knew you had a Harlequin's Crest. But there was still the anticipation of wondering how much DR and MF rolled on it until you picked it up and looked at it. That would still be there even if the item were identified as Harlequin's Crest to you the moment it popped out of that monster, since, again, you can't see the stats on something until you pick it up and hover over it.
Maybe if you get such a kick out of that anticipation, you could just move your mouse really slowly when you go to pick up the item and then to mouse over it after you pick it up. That's like extra joy!
Edit: I'm a genius. This is a brilliant idea. It's a user-customizable experience! Blizzard is all about maximizing the customization in D3, right?
When you get an unidentified item, your conscious mind is thinking "what is it? let's find out! I hope it's cool!" . Consciously delaying the opening works counter to your desire to know what the item is. A small, enforced delay give you that small moment of suspense and internal speculation with requiring your brain to fight itself.
Though that's just why it sounds plausible to me.
Profile -> Signature Settings -> Hide signatures always. Then you don't have to read this worthless text anymore.
Quick update for everyone! We’ve discovered a few issues with Beta Patch 10 which could affect player login. Instead of releasing the patch as-is and addressing those issues later, we felt it necessary to take some time to resolve them now. As a result, the soonest we’ll be able to release Beta Patch 10 is next Monday, January 23.
If they do it cool, I won't mind a low cast-time identify. I just want a barbarian swinging weapons around, wizard hovering them in the air with magic, etc. Animations would go a long way towards adding to the ambiance.
I think they put in the casting time for identifying items because, without scrolls, it would seem weird to click the item to pick it up, an then have to click it again to identify it, without anything in game to differentiate those clicks. A pause just makes it a little more substantial of an action, so my guess is it won't have to be very long. It fits with the states justification that it's all about the experience of finding the item, anyway.
Of course, it seems not everyone agrees with that concept, so maybe if I just acknowledge that people won't use it to tell me why I'm wrong.
ID is awesome. It gives the same affect of having id scrolls, except now you don't need to waste inventory room.
For those who say there is no satisfaction of seeing an un-id item, and it should just be id'd from the start well, fuck you, because I love the thrill of seeing a gold item and going "oh boy oh boy what will it be!?" but not getting to see right away because I might be fighting enemies still. It's a little surprise every time.
I don't think anyone is talking about being able to know what an item is while it's still on the ground, so you seem to be misinterpreting what people are saying.
Identifying items has no purpose in ARPGs. Even this purely psychological purpose they claim is pure nonsense.
I don't actually see that you and I are at odds at all over this. I'm pretty sure I said something else in the same post that made what I meant more clear, but in case not:
You're talking about seeing an item drop and not knowing what it is yet because you're still busy fighting, and getting that gleeful sense of anticipation of getting to find out what it is. I agree, that's a fun sensation! Now in your ID-favoring scenario, you're waiting for the moment when you'll have a chance to pick it up, ID it, and then look at what it does.
I'm saying, what does the ID step even do in that scenario? You still get the same anticipation in the case where you're fighting enemies, waiting for the chance to pick it up...and then look at what it does. The ID is just an extra click or two that doesn't actually change anything.
I mean in your scenario maybe you'll see the item drop labeled as a "unique longsword" and in my scenario maybe the same item would drop with the name "The Demon's Claw", but in either case you don't know what it does just by the name you see when it's on the ground. Unless you've played the game a ton and know by heart what the unique items do already, but in that case, you'd already know what even the "unique longsword" is (if there's just one such, which was often the case in D2 at least), or at least have a very good idea already (if there's actually a couple different unique longswords).
Will spoiler it for those who cant click. Stuff in bold were questions asked through the thread, rest is Bash responding.
Core attributes are important. They’re your core attributes! But they have never been and continue not to be the primary driving force behind your itemization choices. At all times you’re going to need to keep doing and avoiding more damage. Enemies get tougher, they hit harder, and take more hits. No matter who you are you have to counter those inevitable truths. No character would ever say “I can ignore defensive stats because I am a glass cannon!” no, you get to Inferno and you’ll die. You can be a glass cannon, but it’s going to be a balance between offense and defense, not an all-in decision. There is an inevitable requirement to have a variety of the core stats, offensive and defensive. It’s the balance that’s important.
Ok, so, core stats are super great, but they’re still just four of all the bonuses that items can roll and provide your character. Four. And for most builds they’re never going to be where you’re focusing your attention. The other things that can roll up (which still include +armor, +dodge, +health globe, +crit chance, +crit damage, by the way) have always been the more important decision. It’s your choice between doing more damage or being more defensive, but that’s a forgone conclusion. That’s not where true build diversity ever comes from, it’s too broad a plateau.
Are you taking Attack (before) or your classes’ core damage stat (now)? Are you taking Armor (now) or Defense (before)? Are you taking Precision (before) or +crit (now)? These are the same things.
For example, a Barbarian gets both “resist-all” armor and Attack-like damage from “Strength”, so why would he ever choose Dexterity’s dodge over that?
Barbarian’s will always want Strength now just like they always wanted Attack before. Armor is a damage reduction. Dodge completely negates damage. They’re extremely different in practice and your survivability, and at high difficulty play barbarians will absolutely want +dodge. And they don’t have to take Dexterity to get it.
Also, would he truly ever choose to go after a stat that increases health globe benefits, over strength?
Up to that player and their build. Would he ever want crit over flat damage increases? Would he take an increase to the damage of cleave over a crit damage increase? These are the choices you’ll have to make and what makes building characters fun.
Now, obviously the class stats are the top priority, but each stat has equal value, simply because it can be used by somebody. This also leaves more potential for extremely valuable items that could combine class specific affixes with the given class core stat (+int and arcane power generation, for example). A lot of this really depends on just how many and what type of other affixes they are adding, but it has much more potential than the previous system IMO.
What this guy said.
It’s also about item comparison, and that’s simply not an issue in the beta. You’re not getting enough drops or enough tough decisions to make item comparisons a problem for you.
What was happening for us at high levels is that the stats we had required you to think about the item for at least a couple seconds just to realize it’s not a good item for your character. By having a single damage stat now you’re focusing on, it reduces the number of failed comparisons that quickly add up at later levels. The tough decisions are still really tough and you’ll be comparing items for a long time to try to figure out which one is better, but all of the less meaningful drops take less time to realize that the item is not for you and quickly move on. Again that’s something that you just can’t get a good sense of in the beta, but Diablo II players should sympathize with what this change does to resolve item comparison headaches.
No, it really isn’t… Now not all stats are viable to all classes. Now we are going back to the mathematically correct ways of going after core attributes. Now barbs have no reason to go after half the stats when before they had a reason to go after all of them and the same goes for the other classes. This has hurt build diversity, not helped it.
I think there may be a confusion that +dodge is tied to Dexterity now. Or +health globe is tied to Intellect. That’s not the way it works, those stats are and still roll as their own affixes on items.
Also I sort of misspoke in that this change doesn’t really affect build diversity, of course, all the same stats exist for people to stack or do whatever they want with. But it greatly increases item diversity.
Is there still a +attack affix or is that one actually gone?
Your damage is increased by your core class stat, but there are many other affixes that can improve your damage in various ways. It’s the same. When you wanted Attack before you just want your class stat now instead.
I don’t like the +health globe bonus for INT
We’re thinking about that one. It’s up in the air right now. I think we agree with most of the concerns, it’s just really vetting it through high end character and itemization scenarios. We’ll see.
Intellect should be +resistances, a 'real' defensive stat. At least in Beta, increased health from globes was worthless. Though I realize that may change at higher levels.
Unless non-core-stat defensive stats scale stronger than the primarys defensive no-one will take dex for dodge over str for damage and pure damage reduction. (as a barb. A DH or monk may still take damage reduction because if they dont have 100% dodge they will get one shot sometimes still, but it wont work for barbs.)
And if they're going to keep +armor, +dodge, and +health from globes in, as a separate modifiers from strength/dexterity/intellect, then the two other stats become dump stats.
He acts like these other odifiers will be so huge in importance that someone will take dex as a barb becuse of the modifiers on it. But that sys to me "if you want this set of modifiers you oly have one choice" which cant be because in D2 there were many similar items all over for evey class with onl marginal differences, usually.
I've slacked on following D3 news for a while. What's the thread title in reference to?
There was a major systems update posted by Blizzard, describing some (semi-) large changes to the game systems. If you jump back a page or two there is a link to it. The patch reflecting these changes is out either yesterday, or maybe today? Not sure on that, haven't fired up D3 in a bit.
Ah, found it on page 9. That's a lot of changes! At least I can understand why most of them were made. The item identification thing is a little weird. It's not necessarily BAD but... just weird. Also the whole thing starting with an ominous "We're changing the skill-rune system again but don't have enough info to tell you about it now" tells me that this game is going on hold for a bit longer. Which is fiiiiiiiiiiiiiine with me.
I thought he was saying that the Barb won't have to go for dex as far as core stats go but will rather seek out +dodge items.
He is. So basically, items with a lot of Strength will be Barbarian items. Everyone else will turn their nose up a bit at them. It's a turnaround from before, when items were a bit more universal. Anyone would look at a belt with a lot of +attack and want it, now a belt will need +strength, +dexterity, or +intellect, and will only interest 1-2 classes. The change makes things a bit closer to traditional RPG attributes.
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Possibly. However, I've put close to that into playing through different characters in different builds of the beta so far, and it still feels like clicking through my inventory changing junk items into a useful resource is time well spent. It gets me useful crafting materials for my current char and/or my alt at the same time as it clears out clutter from my inventory, freeing up space to pick up more things.
That being said, it also seems like at a certain point you'd have plenty of raw material in your stash to support all of your crafting needs, and so depending upon the value of gold / usefulness of the GAH, I might switch to selling white items or maaaybe just leave them on the ground (although that's tough for me in this sort of game. I like to pick up everything I can. Although I have been able to avoid picking up all of the brooms/pots/etc in skyrim, so maybe there's hope I can be discriminating in a diablo game, too.) The cauldron hasn't been implemented in any beta build that I've tested, so I've never had the option of "selling" from inventory out in the field.
I'm not sure I agree with the idea that having items that are actively disappointing to see drop helps make the useful items seem like more of a reward. But we'll see. I have nothing in particular to base it on except that I think I'd still either (a) still pick up everything and be irritated that I "have" to go back to town so often to sell, or (b) leave stuff on the ground and have my must-pick-up-everything OCD bother me.
Another issue is that one would like to assume that because they're doing research they're drawing the correct conclusion from that research, and attributing the correct causes to their issues... but, that isn't always the case (both for us and for Blizzard).
So because they don't care about the discussion, they will not care about the outcome? This argument is pretty fallacious dude. 8(
I mean, are you saying that if two chefs debate a recipe, it doesn't matter what recipe they decide on at the end so long as they serve the result to people who don't care about the recipe?
You have a talent for phrasing simple ideas in remarkably abrasive ways.
All you appear to be actually saying is "Blizzard knows best". It's a valid opinion to hold in your head, nothing wrong with that. But then you actually have nothing to say about any aspect of development. If we were all to feel exactly the same as you, we should just shut down the thread, because there's nothing to talk about! Just have faith!
All we are here is a bunch of guys shooting the shit about things we find interesting, whether in a positive or negative light, about what Blizzard is doing. Please stop trying to tell people that they shouldn't express opinions.
Steam: badger2d
I'm saying something more like McDonald's doesn't give a shit when a gourmand turns his nose up at their product. They are trying to make burgers with mass appeal and the average consumer is mostly oblivious in the first place.
I'm not telling anyone to not express themselves. I'm playing devil's advocate and apparently it looks more like I'm kicking down sandcastles, so I guess It's time to do something else.
I don't think it's actually the right comparison, though. Somebody like Zynga would be a better fit for that one.
Blizzard's more like Cheesecake Factory.
Steam: badger2d
YEAH I SAID IT. COME AT ME.
I've already posted why I think the solution is better than either no identification or having to use ID scrolls.
For those who say there is no satisfaction of seeing an un-id item, and it should just be id'd from the start well, fuck you, because I love the thrill of seeing a gold item and going "oh boy oh boy what will it be!?" but not getting to see right away because I might be fighting enemies still. It's a little surprise every time.
they basically just streamlined a few things, not a big deal
<--- Has raided on a paladin in every expansion, from TBC on as a tank. Believe me, I know. :P
There was a major systems update posted by Blizzard, describing some (semi-) large changes to the game systems. If you jump back a page or two there is a link to it. The patch reflecting these changes is out either yesterday, or maybe today? Not sure on that, haven't fired up D3 in a bit.
Their food is merely ok but dem cheese cakes...so good. If you be dumpin on their cheese cakes, I'll fight you.
As soon as Diablo 3 is out and we can take it to the PVP arena.
Hell, that anticipation you describe only applied to a few items anyway (rings/amulets, mainly). When you saw that Gold Shako on the ground, you knew you had a Harlequin's Crest. But there was still the anticipation of wondering how much DR and MF rolled on it until you picked it up and looked at it. That would still be there even if the item were identified as Harlequin's Crest to you the moment it popped out of that monster, since, again, you can't see the stats on something until you pick it up and hover over it.
Edit: I'm a genius. This is a brilliant idea. It's a user-customizable experience! Blizzard is all about maximizing the customization in D3, right?
Though that's just why it sounds plausible to me.
And much bigger 2 handed axes. That was Diablo 2's major failing--the 2 handed axes were puny and terrible.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
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Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
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Of course, it seems not everyone agrees with that concept, so maybe if I just acknowledge that people won't use it to tell me why I'm wrong.
I don't actually see that you and I are at odds at all over this. I'm pretty sure I said something else in the same post that made what I meant more clear, but in case not:
You're talking about seeing an item drop and not knowing what it is yet because you're still busy fighting, and getting that gleeful sense of anticipation of getting to find out what it is. I agree, that's a fun sensation! Now in your ID-favoring scenario, you're waiting for the moment when you'll have a chance to pick it up, ID it, and then look at what it does.
I'm saying, what does the ID step even do in that scenario? You still get the same anticipation in the case where you're fighting enemies, waiting for the chance to pick it up...and then look at what it does. The ID is just an extra click or two that doesn't actually change anything.
I mean in your scenario maybe you'll see the item drop labeled as a "unique longsword" and in my scenario maybe the same item would drop with the name "The Demon's Claw", but in either case you don't know what it does just by the name you see when it's on the ground. Unless you've played the game a ton and know by heart what the unique items do already, but in that case, you'd already know what even the "unique longsword" is (if there's just one such, which was often the case in D2 at least), or at least have a very good idea already (if there's actually a couple different unique longswords).
Steam: badger2d
Will spoiler it for those who cant click. Stuff in bold were questions asked through the thread, rest is Bash responding.
Edit: Yeah, what Topia said.
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Ah, found it on page 9. That's a lot of changes! At least I can understand why most of them were made. The item identification thing is a little weird. It's not necessarily BAD but... just weird. Also the whole thing starting with an ominous "We're changing the skill-rune system again but don't have enough info to tell you about it now" tells me that this game is going on hold for a bit longer. Which is fiiiiiiiiiiiiiine with me.
He is. So basically, items with a lot of Strength will be Barbarian items. Everyone else will turn their nose up a bit at them. It's a turnaround from before, when items were a bit more universal. Anyone would look at a belt with a lot of +attack and want it, now a belt will need +strength, +dexterity, or +intellect, and will only interest 1-2 classes. The change makes things a bit closer to traditional RPG attributes.
Now instead of items with certain +attributes being garbage for everyone, they're treasure for some classes.