Edit: yeah, I just remembered that the Jewler is able to add sockets to things and remove gems. Unless that's been removed. Y'know, like everything else.
Enchanting is what they took out. Too plain, was their stated reason.
I think it was more than that, it actually made the game more complex and figuring out how to divvy up the affixes between enchantments and gems was overwhelming. Having two different things doing the same thing was also redundant. It didn't add anything to the gameplay except more tedium for the player and the developers.
You're not going to hit 60 and finish the game on Inferno. You're going to be smashing your face against Act 1 Inferno for weeks. Perfecting your build before then will not matter.
03/27/2012 04:47 PMPosted by Starbird
1) "Forced" Experimentation while leveling. Basically, you are forced to play with runeskills you may or may not like until something better unlocks. Under the old system, via the AH and with a bit of luck you could play the build you wanted and refine it. Under the new one you have to play for (potentially) a long time to get the build you want.
I don't see that as a negative. Previously you were held to either randomness, or left to your own to pick something with little incentive to jump around. Previously most people would determine what they believe is best and do very little experimentation. With the unlock system there is actually some incentive in the absence of complete choice to try something you otherwise may not have.
But anyway, it was really a symptom of solving worse problems with the item-based rune system. Both systems have their benefits, both have their downsides, but we know that this system has more ups than downs compared to the others.
03/27/2012 04:47 PMPosted by Starbird
2) The death of customization and specialization. Runes were initially introduced to offset the loss of 'uniqueness' in character builds due to the skill system. Runes allowed you to craft a build that was *yours* and finding ranks allowed to you continually refine and improve it. Under the new system, you are a few clicks and a cooldown away from being the same build as the guy next to you.
No they weren't. Runes were a part of the Diablo III skill design because we thought it'd be bad !@# to be able to customize skills.
Rune ranks were never customization, it was a gradual power increase dictated by drop chance. And don't be fooled that there is customization with skill trees. I've yet to see any skill tree that offers anything but the illusion of customization.
If you mean skill choice permanence, well, we just fundamentally disagree that you need to be locked into something to make your character choices meaningful. There is still plenty to make your character build meaningful that doesn't require re-rolling, and we believe we've achieved that.
03/27/2012 04:47 PMPosted by Starbird
3) Hell is for Heroes, and Inferno is not a place I want to still be 'trying out' new skills. In Diablo 2 stuff would unlock at a reasonable rate, and by the end of normal you had your build and were just getting the extras. Under this system, it's entirely possible that you will be waiting until you have finished Hell to unlock the skill effect you want. I don't know about you, but by the time I hit Hell I really want to have my build down and be working on gear and technique.
It's weird how on one hand we're asked for limitations, add more limitations, we really want to be punished and forced to level new characters and just be beaten about the face and neck with punishing game mechanics... and then it almost feels like there's a fear that you won't have a perfect character to take on the challenging areas of the game.
You won't. You're going to die, a lot, and you're going to have a horrible character for quite a while. You're not going to hit 60 and finish the game on Inferno. You're going to be smashing your face against Act 1 Inferno for weeks. Perfecting your build before then will not matter.
03/27/2012 04:47 PMPosted by Starbird
4) Not everyone is going to get to Inferno. I thought Blizzard said a while back that most players will quit after Normal? So...rather than letting everyone play around with rank 1 runes and at least see the various effects you aren't going to let them see them at all?
Totally! Reward for more invested players, and very likely a way to entice players not to just stop at Normal.
To be honest the repetitive difficulty levels in Diablo games is not a very straightforward mechanic. Plenty of games have difficulty levels, but there are only a handful that use them as progression. If we can communicate the intent of the game to people by showing unlocks in future difficulty levels, maybe we can get more people to play beyond Normal.
03/27/2012 04:47 PMPosted by Starbird
5) It feels like a deliberate delay to extend Diablo 3's lifespan for casual gamers (who may not have got to 60 otherwise). It's a lot like those fighting games that lock half the roster until you've finished Arcade mode dozens of times. Basically a cheap trick to keep you playing.
I'm not sure why this is a separate point. Maybe this should be 4a. ?
I'd agree with you though if the game wasn't a 1-time price to buy the box. We earn nothing by 'tricking' you into playing more. Is it so crazy that we just want to make a fun game you'll enjoy? Maybe it is these days.
6) Leveling is a huge focus of D3. This isn't WoW. Inferno will be nice, but getting there is going to take a long time and for most characters will be the majority of their lifespan. Not being able to do this as the build I want is rather lame.
However, there are two simple solutions.
1)Allow players, every 10 levels, to unlock a single runeskill of their choice, in addition to the existing system. This means that there is still something to look forward too, those of us with very specific builds in mind can enjoy them pre-Inferno and the newer players/Zarhym's Grandmother won't be affected at all.
2) Like Crafting, once a runeskill has been unlocked it is available at level 6, or when the base skill unlocks on any new characters of that class.
A third really good suggestion, made by InfernoBound is giving some free rune choices as quest rewards. I am a big fan of this idea too.Thoughts?
Ok, so here it is, we do not have any problem with some kind of 'rune point' system where you could maybe earn points and then spend them wherever you want. But, and everyone loves this answer I know, it's not going to make or break an already well-functional system and thus is not worth delaying the game to design and build out one where this is possible. Contrary to popular belief "when it's done" is not the same as "let's work on it for 7 more years until we've accomplished absolutely everything we can dream of". Our commitment to quality and polish very much is the intent of our design mantras, though.
I realize some people are going to really want to be able to get that rune and MAN! it doesn't unlock until level 58! And honestly that's something we sympathize with to a degree, but the current system works very well, the current limitations absolutely have their benefits, it's actually fun to be forced to try other effects, and immediately giving you what you want is usually not a fun game mechanic in the long term.
In my own personal opinion, it's Diablo. If you can't find a workable build without having your own perfect choices being handed to you on a silver platter at the start of the game, good luck in Inferno. Actually, good luck in Nightmare. This game is hard.
while(true){
butthurtRagePost("D3 isn't exactly like D2");
beleagueredBashiokReply("god why won't you die");
fansitePost("blizzard says hard difficulty is hard!!!1");
}
Given that a lot of D2 players thought that Hell needed to be harder, then I'm guessing they're not going to make Inferno easier. After 6 months the dedicated players will have items & builds that will be able to finish Inferno mode. They'll be begging for more content, not easier content.
Given that a lot of D2 players thought that Hell needed to be harder, then I'm guessing they're not going to make Inferno easier. After 6 months the dedicated players will have items & builds that will be able to finish Inferno mode. They'll be begging for more content, not easier content.
Have you played WoW recently? Everything in that game is cakewalk to what it used to be like a few years ago. It's almost a joke.
They specifically said that they want inferno to NOT be easy. Unlike WoW where they want everyone to be able to see all the end game content, everyone in D3 will see all the content on normal difficulty... so there is no reason to make inferno easier for the casuals(and baddies).
I think that they are probably underestimating the hardcore gamer and will have to increase the difficulty eventually.
I expect there'll be some balancing of abilities/combinations that are 'unfair' like insta-kills or simply unfun to play against (whatever the D3 equivelent of "immune to everything" or "when I die I probably take everyone within 30ft with me" is), but from the way the system is described, it seems like gear and skill/experience/build improvements will allow players to slowly acclimate to Inferno naturally anyway. Like, I can appreciate needing to spend weeks building up gear and tweaking my rune choices for Inferno Act 1, but I can't imagine that'll still be the case 3 months later. I'll be building gear and tweaking my build for Act 2 or 3 at that point. :P
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
Given that a lot of D2 players thought that Hell needed to be harder, then I'm guessing they're not going to make Inferno easier. After 6 months the dedicated players will have items & builds that will be able to finish Inferno mode. They'll be begging for more content, not easier content.
Have you played WoW recently? Everything in that game is cakewalk to what it used to be like a few years ago. It's almost a joke.
It will be interesting to see if the masses can nerf another Blizz game into oblivion. We already know what these people think of difficulty in THE "MMO" but I wonder what they will think of the difficulty in this online "single player" game? I wonder how long it will take for the masses to state something the realm of "you mean I have to play the same content over and over? (I am prepared to lol hard at this one) And other interesting reactions from the masses of bads you know will be coming to this game.
They specifically said that they want inferno to NOT be easy. Unlike WoW where they want everyone to be able to see all the end game content, everyone in D3 will see all the content on normal difficulty... so there is no reason to make inferno easier for the casuals(and baddies).
I think that they are probably underestimating the hardcore gamer and will have to increase the difficulty eventually.
You forget they nerf the hard content now too as the tier ages. They just added another 5% nerf this week to heroics and normal raiding modes.
Edit: its not about the hardcore gamer. He/She is a minority these days.
They specifically said that they want inferno to NOT be easy. Unlike WoW where they want everyone to be able to see all the end game content, everyone in D3 will see all the content on normal difficulty... so there is no reason to make inferno easier for the casuals(and baddies).
I think that they are probably underestimating the hardcore gamer and will have to increase the difficulty eventually.
I have to agree with this. I think we'll see people clearing inferno a lot earlier than they anticipate. I hope to be one of them, and while WoW raiding is not entirely applicable to Diablo I still think having been part of early realm clears of heroic content will give me an edge. There was nothing in the beta so far that surprised me, skeleton king is a laughably easy mob to anticipate and react to.
To be fair/clear, I haven't played WoW recently, but as a former hardcore raider (all but 1 or 2 bosses in the Sunwell pre-nerf, first person on my server to get a war bear, etc) for Vanilla and TBC, I was always an advocate of a gradual nerfing of content to allow more people to see it. It never made sense to me to have these incredible dungeons only seen by a tiny fraction of the game's population, especially when those people were all paying their monthly fees.
Seriously, in the MMO subforum I was well known for commiting Big Block Of Text Attrocities on the subject.
With D3, as noted, everyone can 'see the content' just by completing normal, with other difficulties providing greater challenges and having better loot (and achievements/banner stuff/etc) as reward for meeting those challenges. There's also no monthly fee.
So I feel it's internally consistant for me to be an advocate of allowing more people to see content in WoW (not by making it a cake walk to start, but eventually) but being okay with Nightmare/Hell/Inferno difficulties presenting significant challenges.
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
They specifically said that they want inferno to NOT be easy. Unlike WoW where they want everyone to be able to see all the end game content, everyone in D3 will see all the content on normal difficulty... so there is no reason to make inferno easier for the casuals(and baddies).
I think that they are probably underestimating the hardcore gamer and will have to increase the difficulty eventually.
I have to agree with this. I think we'll see people clearing inferno a lot earlier than they anticipate. I hope to be one of them, and while WoW raiding is not entirely applicable to Diablo I still think having been part of early realm clears of heroic content will give me an edge. There was nothing in the beta so far that surprised me, skeleton king is a laughably easy mob to anticipate and react to.
Skeleton king is the first mini boss. Like fighting Blood Raven in D2....not exactly meant to be much more challenging than a champion group really.
Delphinidaes on
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They specifically said that they want inferno to NOT be easy. Unlike WoW where they want everyone to be able to see all the end game content, everyone in D3 will see all the content on normal difficulty... so there is no reason to make inferno easier for the casuals(and baddies).
I think that they are probably underestimating the hardcore gamer and will have to increase the difficulty eventually.
I have to agree with this. I think we'll see people clearing inferno a lot earlier than they anticipate. I hope to be one of them, and while WoW raiding is not entirely applicable to Diablo I still think having been part of early realm clears of heroic content will give me an edge. There was nothing in the beta so far that surprised me, skeleton king is a laughably easy mob to anticipate and react to.
Skeleton king is the first mini boss. Like fighting Blood Raven in D2....not exactly meant to be much more challenging than a champion group really.
My point was that there's very little that Blizzard can throw at an experienced WoW raider at this point that we haven't seen before. And I think that will be seen in D3 bosses. I expect that when it comes out, every time I meet a new boss I'll quickly be able to say "oh he performs this move from x boss in WoW I know how to deal with that".
We'll probably see floor triggers and other mechanics needed to blow boss shields or handle add waves easily.
With WoW, they have incentive to get people to keep paying the monthly fee. That means they can't let the general populous get frustrated with content that they can never complete if they aren't an uber gamer with no life. Without steady progression, there's little incentive to keep playing and paying.
D3 has no monthly fee. The RMAH will be their cash cow past the initial phase of half the planet buying the game. By making later content easier, and by extension the most valuable items easier to get, they undercut the value of items in the RMAH. They have a fiscal interest in keeping some content out of the reach of most players. If everyone can finish Inferno, then the RMAH becomes a wasteland.
They specifically said that they want inferno to NOT be easy. Unlike WoW where they want everyone to be able to see all the end game content, everyone in D3 will see all the content on normal difficulty... so there is no reason to make inferno easier for the casuals(and baddies).
I think that they are probably underestimating the hardcore gamer and will have to increase the difficulty eventually.
I have to agree with this. I think we'll see people clearing inferno a lot earlier than they anticipate. I hope to be one of them, and while WoW raiding is not entirely applicable to Diablo I still think having been part of early realm clears of heroic content will give me an edge. There was nothing in the beta so far that surprised me, skeleton king is a laughably easy mob to anticipate and react to.
Skeleton king is the first mini boss. Like fighting Blood Raven in D2....not exactly meant to be much more challenging than a champion group really.
My point was that there's very little that Blizzard can throw at an experienced WoW raider at this point that we haven't seen before. And I think that will be seen in D3 bosses. I expect that when it comes out, every time I meet a new boss I'll quickly be able to say "oh he performs this move from x boss in WoW I know how to deal with that".
We'll probably see floor triggers and other mechanics needed to blow boss shields or handle add waves easily.
That's...certainly an interesting way to look at it. But I think that assuming the developer team can't come up with interesting mechanics for their bosses outside of WoW bosses is a bit of a stretch.
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They specifically said that they want inferno to NOT be easy. Unlike WoW where they want everyone to be able to see all the end game content, everyone in D3 will see all the content on normal difficulty... so there is no reason to make inferno easier for the casuals(and baddies).
I think that they are probably underestimating the hardcore gamer and will have to increase the difficulty eventually.
I have to agree with this. I think we'll see people clearing inferno a lot earlier than they anticipate. I hope to be one of them, and while WoW raiding is not entirely applicable to Diablo I still think having been part of early realm clears of heroic content will give me an edge. There was nothing in the beta so far that surprised me, skeleton king is a laughably easy mob to anticipate and react to.
Skeleton king is the first mini boss. Like fighting Blood Raven in D2....not exactly meant to be much more challenging than a champion group really.
My point was that there's very little that Blizzard can throw at an experienced WoW raider at this point that we haven't seen before. And I think that will be seen in D3 bosses. I expect that when it comes out, every time I meet a new boss I'll quickly be able to say "oh he performs this move from x boss in WoW I know how to deal with that".
We'll probably see floor triggers and other mechanics needed to blow boss shields or handle add waves easily.
That's...certainly an interesting way to look at it. But I think that assuming the developer team can't come up with interesting mechanics for their bosses outside of WoW bosses is a bit of a stretch.
Considering they started reusing boss abilities in Wrath of the Lich King (every 5man boss was a variation of old raid boss abilities) and Cataclysm brought nothing new to the table either, I don't think its such a stretch to say we'll be able to recognize most boss abilities in Diablo 3.
There's another major difference here, in addition to a difficult Inferno not keeping players from seeing new content.
In WoW, after a certain point you are forced to find a sizeable group of max level, high gear, reasonably skilled players to beat the content you need to improve your character. That's because the good gear only drops from specific bosses in specific dungeons, and they can't be done solo.
In Diablo, you can always keep running areas and bosses that you can beat, solo, with reasonable hope of finding better gear than you already have, which can eventually make you powerful enough to move forward, and repeat the process. (Or you can just buy your gear- what else are you going to do with the in-game gold you accumulate?)
It's a far less exclusionary system. Sure, not everyone's going to be "rich" in-game, but the solution to that isn't easier content, it's putting in more play time.
They specifically said that they want inferno to NOT be easy. Unlike WoW where they want everyone to be able to see all the end game content, everyone in D3 will see all the content on normal difficulty... so there is no reason to make inferno easier for the casuals(and baddies).
I think that they are probably underestimating the hardcore gamer and will have to increase the difficulty eventually.
I have to agree with this. I think we'll see people clearing inferno a lot earlier than they anticipate. I hope to be one of them, and while WoW raiding is not entirely applicable to Diablo I still think having been part of early realm clears of heroic content will give me an edge. There was nothing in the beta so far that surprised me, skeleton king is a laughably easy mob to anticipate and react to.
Skeleton king is the first mini boss. Like fighting Blood Raven in D2....not exactly meant to be much more challenging than a champion group really.
My point was that there's very little that Blizzard can throw at an experienced WoW raider at this point that we haven't seen before. And I think that will be seen in D3 bosses. I expect that when it comes out, every time I meet a new boss I'll quickly be able to say "oh he performs this move from x boss in WoW I know how to deal with that".
We'll probably see floor triggers and other mechanics needed to blow boss shields or handle add waves easily.
That's...certainly an interesting way to look at it. But I think that assuming the developer team can't come up with interesting mechanics for their bosses outside of WoW bosses is a bit of a stretch.
Considering they started reusing boss abilities in Wrath of the Lich King (every 5man boss was a variation of old raid boss abilities) and Cataclysm brought nothing new to the table either, I don't think its such a stretch to say we'll be able to recognize most boss abilities in Diablo 3.
I think it's quite a stretch to make. The mechanics between the two games are quite different and a lot of the boss encounters in WoW have to take that into account, you also don't have the holy trinity in D3 which again was a major factor in most WoW boss encounters. In d3 you are essentially running a very different type of group setup (5 dps, 1 tank 4 dps, an aura monk+ dps, etc etc) which means you won't really have just one person wailing on the boss as a tank while the rest run around popping various mechanics every now and again.
That certainly could be something they add but the very nature of how D3 plays makes it less likely we'll simply see rehashed fight mechanics from bosses in WoW.
*Edit* Also I'm not sure what your point is in comparing the fact that they reused mechanics in the expansions of WoW itself to boss mechanics in a Diablo game. That doesn't really seem like a valid comparison to me.
Delphinidaes on
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They specifically said that they want inferno to NOT be easy. Unlike WoW where they want everyone to be able to see all the end game content, everyone in D3 will see all the content on normal difficulty... so there is no reason to make inferno easier for the casuals(and baddies).
I think that they are probably underestimating the hardcore gamer and will have to increase the difficulty eventually.
I have to agree with this. I think we'll see people clearing inferno a lot earlier than they anticipate. I hope to be one of them, and while WoW raiding is not entirely applicable to Diablo I still think having been part of early realm clears of heroic content will give me an edge. There was nothing in the beta so far that surprised me, skeleton king is a laughably easy mob to anticipate and react to.
Skeleton king is the first mini boss. Like fighting Blood Raven in D2....not exactly meant to be much more challenging than a champion group really.
My point was that there's very little that Blizzard can throw at an experienced WoW raider at this point that we haven't seen before. And I think that will be seen in D3 bosses. I expect that when it comes out, every time I meet a new boss I'll quickly be able to say "oh he performs this move from x boss in WoW I know how to deal with that".
We'll probably see floor triggers and other mechanics needed to blow boss shields or handle add waves easily.
That's...certainly an interesting way to look at it. But I think that assuming the developer team can't come up with interesting mechanics for their bosses outside of WoW bosses is a bit of a stretch.
Considering they started reusing boss abilities in Wrath of the Lich King (every 5man boss was a variation of old raid boss abilities) and Cataclysm brought nothing new to the table either, I don't think its such a stretch to say we'll be able to recognize most boss abilities in Diablo 3.
I think it's quite a stretch to make. The mechanics between the two games are quite different and a lot of the boss encounters in WoW have to take that into account, you also don't have the holy trinity in D3 which again was a major factor in most WoW boss encounters. In d3 you are essentially running a very different type of group setup (5 dps, 1 tank 4 dps, an aura monk+ dps, etc etc) which means you won't really have just one person wailing on the boss as a tank while the rest run around popping various mechanics every now and again.
That certainly could be something they add but the very nature of how D3 plays makes it less likely we'll simply see rehashed fight mechanics from bosses in WoW.
Actually the games aren't that dissimilar. You have a brawler game with the usual archetype heroes who kill a lot of monsters. While I'll admit freely that the skeleton king isn't an indicator of every boss in the game his abilities are easily recognizable and a stable of WoW. His first ability is to teleport on top of the player and perform a knockbacking AoE that does a large amount of damage which you need to avoid. He will also randomly teleport away from the player and summon adds and his main attack is slow and avoidable if you move away from it.
Other abilities I predict from bosses in the full game are rotating lasers, large targeted strikes on an area of the floor, flying bosses that have to be taken down with harpoons and bosses that become invincible for every 25% of health they lose until you kill an add wave or destroy a pillar. These are all interesting mechanics but we've seen them before and I honestly don't believe that Blizzard are creative enough to make Diablo 3 a completely unique experience.
If you've ever played Harmony of Despair on hard mode, that is what I imagine D3 will be like. Stuff will just straight ruin you if you don't dodge everything and have good enough gear to blow them up before they overwhelm you.
But of course I can't know that. But that was a game where you definitely had to memorize boss mechanics and perform at 100% or get dropped to the canvas.
Actually the games aren't that dissimilar. You have a brawler game with the usual archetype heroes who kill a lot of monsters. While I'll admit freely that the skeleton king isn't an indicator of every boss in the game his abilities are easily recognizable and a stable of WoWvideo game bosses.
Granted, there's only so many mechanics that can exist in a video game, but it's not like WoW was the first to employ them in boss fights. This is a peeve of mine.
Maybe WoW was the first to have some super-neat mechanic like a boss that makes abilities restart their cooldown when he hits you, I dunno. But things like teleporting, elemental effects, AoE, and adds were around before WoW.
Actually the games aren't that dissimilar. You have a brawler game with the usual archetype heroes who kill a lot of monsters. While I'll admit freely that the skeleton king isn't an indicator of every boss in the game his abilities are easily recognizable and a stable of WoWvideo game bosses.
Granted, there's only so many mechanics that can exist in a video game, but it's not like WoW was the first to employ them in boss fights. This is a peeve of mine.
Maybe WoW was the first to have some super-neat mechanic like a boss that makes abilities restart their cooldown when he hits you, I dunno. But things like teleporting, elemental effects, AoE, and adds were around before WoW.
My original point was that my raiding experience in WoW gave me an edge in Diablo 3. I wasn't really attributing these mechanics solely to WoW.
They've said they want the boss fights to be like Zelda boss fights. Take from that what you will.
Now this I can see as being something they would do. The style would mesh much more closely with D3 than WoW.
Still don't get what that means. Does that mean you'll find a weapon in the dungeon before the boss that the boss is weak against and you'll have to exploit that?
They've said they want the boss fights to be like Zelda boss fights. Take from that what you will.
Now this I can see as being something they would do. The style would mesh much more closely with D3 than WoW.
Still don't get what that means. Does that mean you'll find a weapon in the dungeon before the boss that the boss is weak against and you'll have to exploit that?
It means you'll spend hours of your life fishing in that pond, trying to catch something that may not exist....
They've said they want the boss fights to be like Zelda boss fights. Take from that what you will.
Now this I can see as being something they would do. The style would mesh much more closely with D3 than WoW.
Still don't get what that means. Does that mean you'll find a weapon in the dungeon before the boss that the boss is weak against and you'll have to exploit that?
It means you'll spend hours of your life fishing in that pond, trying to catch something that may not exist....
They've said they want the boss fights to be like Zelda boss fights. Take from that what you will.
Now this I can see as being something they would do. The style would mesh much more closely with D3 than WoW.
Still don't get what that means. Does that mean you'll find a weapon in the dungeon before the boss that the boss is weak against and you'll have to exploit that?
I like to think it means that bosses will start firing more and more projectiles out and that you need to knock back the Bombs to hit their weak point.
Ooo or a Bullet hell boss would be fun
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People also tend to overlook (because it was a long long ass time ago) that they made D2 substantially harder as time went on and it still wasn't enough to offset the class and skill buffs that the patches gave.
Actually the games aren't that dissimilar. You have a brawler game with the usual archetype heroes who kill a lot of monsters. While I'll admit freely that the skeleton king isn't an indicator of every boss in the game his abilities are easily recognizable and a stable of WoWvideo game bosses.
Granted, there's only so many mechanics that can exist in a video game, but it's not like WoW was the first to employ them in boss fights. This is a peeve of mine.
Maybe WoW was the first to have some super-neat mechanic like a boss that makes abilities restart their cooldown when he hits you, I dunno. But things like teleporting, elemental effects, AoE, and adds were around before WoW.
My original point was that my raiding experience in WoW gave me an edge in Diablo 3. I wasn't really attributing these mechanics solely to WoW.
Boss Mechanics? in Diablo? The only boss mechanic is Diablo games is don't let the boss kill you. I mean the only mechanics I can think of is run away from the red lightening and make sure to throw up a town portal before you aggro. Killing bosses is almost always just a gear check, do you have enough hit point and resistances to survive.
Actually the games aren't that dissimilar. You have a brawler game with the usual archetype heroes who kill a lot of monsters. While I'll admit freely that the skeleton king isn't an indicator of every boss in the game his abilities are easily recognizable and a stable of WoWvideo game bosses.
Granted, there's only so many mechanics that can exist in a video game, but it's not like WoW was the first to employ them in boss fights. This is a peeve of mine.
Maybe WoW was the first to have some super-neat mechanic like a boss that makes abilities restart their cooldown when he hits you, I dunno. But things like teleporting, elemental effects, AoE, and adds were around before WoW.
My original point was that my raiding experience in WoW gave me an edge in Diablo 3. I wasn't really attributing these mechanics solely to WoW.
Boss Mechanics? in Diablo? The only boss mechanic is Diablo games is don't let the boss kill you. I mean the only mechanics I can think of is run away from the red lightening and make sure to throw up a town portal before you aggro. Killing bosses is almost always just a gear check, do you have enough hit point and resistances to survive.
Diablo 3 isn't Diablo 2. Bosses will do a number of things you need to react to or you die, I don't care how much gear you have, if you stand in the fire you're going to die. Bosses are also in their own event instance and you can't use a town portal while the fight is on or you have to restart it.
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Well, unless they've changed their minds.
Edit: yeah, I just remembered that the Jewler is able to add sockets to things and remove gems. Unless that's been removed. Y'know, like everything else.
Searching the item database...
Edit 2: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/gem/
"can be inserted into armor with sockets"
Yeah, that seems pretty definitive.
I think it was more than that, it actually made the game more complex and figuring out how to divvy up the affixes between enchantments and gems was overwhelming. Having two different things doing the same thing was also redundant. It didn't add anything to the gameplay except more tedium for the player and the developers.
http://www.diablofans.com/blizz-tracker/topic/219779-is-anyone-happy-about-runes-on-rails/
1) "Forced" Experimentation while leveling. Basically, you are forced to play with runeskills you may or may not like until something better unlocks. Under the old system, via the AH and with a bit of luck you could play the build you wanted and refine it. Under the new one you have to play for (potentially) a long time to get the build you want.
I don't see that as a negative. Previously you were held to either randomness, or left to your own to pick something with little incentive to jump around. Previously most people would determine what they believe is best and do very little experimentation. With the unlock system there is actually some incentive in the absence of complete choice to try something you otherwise may not have.
But anyway, it was really a symptom of solving worse problems with the item-based rune system. Both systems have their benefits, both have their downsides, but we know that this system has more ups than downs compared to the others.
03/27/2012 04:47 PMPosted by Starbird
2) The death of customization and specialization. Runes were initially introduced to offset the loss of 'uniqueness' in character builds due to the skill system. Runes allowed you to craft a build that was *yours* and finding ranks allowed to you continually refine and improve it. Under the new system, you are a few clicks and a cooldown away from being the same build as the guy next to you.
No they weren't. Runes were a part of the Diablo III skill design because we thought it'd be bad !@# to be able to customize skills.
Rune ranks were never customization, it was a gradual power increase dictated by drop chance. And don't be fooled that there is customization with skill trees. I've yet to see any skill tree that offers anything but the illusion of customization.
If you mean skill choice permanence, well, we just fundamentally disagree that you need to be locked into something to make your character choices meaningful. There is still plenty to make your character build meaningful that doesn't require re-rolling, and we believe we've achieved that.
03/27/2012 04:47 PMPosted by Starbird
3) Hell is for Heroes, and Inferno is not a place I want to still be 'trying out' new skills. In Diablo 2 stuff would unlock at a reasonable rate, and by the end of normal you had your build and were just getting the extras. Under this system, it's entirely possible that you will be waiting until you have finished Hell to unlock the skill effect you want. I don't know about you, but by the time I hit Hell I really want to have my build down and be working on gear and technique.
It's weird how on one hand we're asked for limitations, add more limitations, we really want to be punished and forced to level new characters and just be beaten about the face and neck with punishing game mechanics... and then it almost feels like there's a fear that you won't have a perfect character to take on the challenging areas of the game.
You won't. You're going to die, a lot, and you're going to have a horrible character for quite a while. You're not going to hit 60 and finish the game on Inferno. You're going to be smashing your face against Act 1 Inferno for weeks. Perfecting your build before then will not matter.
03/27/2012 04:47 PMPosted by Starbird
4) Not everyone is going to get to Inferno. I thought Blizzard said a while back that most players will quit after Normal? So...rather than letting everyone play around with rank 1 runes and at least see the various effects you aren't going to let them see them at all?
Totally! Reward for more invested players, and very likely a way to entice players not to just stop at Normal.
To be honest the repetitive difficulty levels in Diablo games is not a very straightforward mechanic. Plenty of games have difficulty levels, but there are only a handful that use them as progression. If we can communicate the intent of the game to people by showing unlocks in future difficulty levels, maybe we can get more people to play beyond Normal.
03/27/2012 04:47 PMPosted by Starbird
5) It feels like a deliberate delay to extend Diablo 3's lifespan for casual gamers (who may not have got to 60 otherwise). It's a lot like those fighting games that lock half the roster until you've finished Arcade mode dozens of times. Basically a cheap trick to keep you playing.
I'm not sure why this is a separate point. Maybe this should be 4a. ?
I'd agree with you though if the game wasn't a 1-time price to buy the box. We earn nothing by 'tricking' you into playing more. Is it so crazy that we just want to make a fun game you'll enjoy? Maybe it is these days.
6) Leveling is a huge focus of D3. This isn't WoW. Inferno will be nice, but getting there is going to take a long time and for most characters will be the majority of their lifespan. Not being able to do this as the build I want is rather lame.
However, there are two simple solutions.
1)Allow players, every 10 levels, to unlock a single runeskill of their choice, in addition to the existing system. This means that there is still something to look forward too, those of us with very specific builds in mind can enjoy them pre-Inferno and the newer players/Zarhym's Grandmother won't be affected at all.
2) Like Crafting, once a runeskill has been unlocked it is available at level 6, or when the base skill unlocks on any new characters of that class.
A third really good suggestion, made by InfernoBound is giving some free rune choices as quest rewards. I am a big fan of this idea too.Thoughts?
Ok, so here it is, we do not have any problem with some kind of 'rune point' system where you could maybe earn points and then spend them wherever you want. But, and everyone loves this answer I know, it's not going to make or break an already well-functional system and thus is not worth delaying the game to design and build out one where this is possible. Contrary to popular belief "when it's done" is not the same as "let's work on it for 7 more years until we've accomplished absolutely everything we can dream of". Our commitment to quality and polish very much is the intent of our design mantras, though.
I realize some people are going to really want to be able to get that rune and MAN! it doesn't unlock until level 58! And honestly that's something we sympathize with to a degree, but the current system works very well, the current limitations absolutely have their benefits, it's actually fun to be forced to try other effects, and immediately giving you what you want is usually not a fun game mechanic in the long term.
In my own personal opinion, it's Diablo. If you can't find a workable build without having your own perfect choices being handed to you on a silver platter at the start of the game, good luck in Inferno. Actually, good luck in Nightmare. This game is hard.
butthurtRagePost("D3 isn't exactly like D2");
beleagueredBashiokReply("god why won't you die");
fansitePost("blizzard says hard difficulty is hard!!!1");
}
Have you played WoW recently? Everything in that game is cakewalk to what it used to be like a few years ago. It's almost a joke.
I think that they are probably underestimating the hardcore gamer and will have to increase the difficulty eventually.
It will be interesting to see if the masses can nerf another Blizz game into oblivion. We already know what these people think of difficulty in THE "MMO" but I wonder what they will think of the difficulty in this online "single player" game? I wonder how long it will take for the masses to state something the realm of "you mean I have to play the same content over and over? (I am prepared to lol hard at this one) And other interesting reactions from the masses of bads you know will be coming to this game.
You forget they nerf the hard content now too as the tier ages. They just added another 5% nerf this week to heroics and normal raiding modes.
Edit: its not about the hardcore gamer. He/She is a minority these days.
I have to agree with this. I think we'll see people clearing inferno a lot earlier than they anticipate. I hope to be one of them, and while WoW raiding is not entirely applicable to Diablo I still think having been part of early realm clears of heroic content will give me an edge. There was nothing in the beta so far that surprised me, skeleton king is a laughably easy mob to anticipate and react to.
Seriously, in the MMO subforum I was well known for commiting Big Block Of Text Attrocities on the subject.
With D3, as noted, everyone can 'see the content' just by completing normal, with other difficulties providing greater challenges and having better loot (and achievements/banner stuff/etc) as reward for meeting those challenges. There's also no monthly fee.
So I feel it's internally consistant for me to be an advocate of allowing more people to see content in WoW (not by making it a cake walk to start, but eventually) but being okay with Nightmare/Hell/Inferno difficulties presenting significant challenges.
Skeleton king is the first mini boss. Like fighting Blood Raven in D2....not exactly meant to be much more challenging than a champion group really.
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My point was that there's very little that Blizzard can throw at an experienced WoW raider at this point that we haven't seen before. And I think that will be seen in D3 bosses. I expect that when it comes out, every time I meet a new boss I'll quickly be able to say "oh he performs this move from x boss in WoW I know how to deal with that".
We'll probably see floor triggers and other mechanics needed to blow boss shields or handle add waves easily.
D3 has no monthly fee. The RMAH will be their cash cow past the initial phase of half the planet buying the game. By making later content easier, and by extension the most valuable items easier to get, they undercut the value of items in the RMAH. They have a fiscal interest in keeping some content out of the reach of most players. If everyone can finish Inferno, then the RMAH becomes a wasteland.
That's...certainly an interesting way to look at it. But I think that assuming the developer team can't come up with interesting mechanics for their bosses outside of WoW bosses is a bit of a stretch.
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Considering they started reusing boss abilities in Wrath of the Lich King (every 5man boss was a variation of old raid boss abilities) and Cataclysm brought nothing new to the table either, I don't think its such a stretch to say we'll be able to recognize most boss abilities in Diablo 3.
In WoW, after a certain point you are forced to find a sizeable group of max level, high gear, reasonably skilled players to beat the content you need to improve your character. That's because the good gear only drops from specific bosses in specific dungeons, and they can't be done solo.
In Diablo, you can always keep running areas and bosses that you can beat, solo, with reasonable hope of finding better gear than you already have, which can eventually make you powerful enough to move forward, and repeat the process. (Or you can just buy your gear- what else are you going to do with the in-game gold you accumulate?)
It's a far less exclusionary system. Sure, not everyone's going to be "rich" in-game, but the solution to that isn't easier content, it's putting in more play time.
I think it's quite a stretch to make. The mechanics between the two games are quite different and a lot of the boss encounters in WoW have to take that into account, you also don't have the holy trinity in D3 which again was a major factor in most WoW boss encounters. In d3 you are essentially running a very different type of group setup (5 dps, 1 tank 4 dps, an aura monk+ dps, etc etc) which means you won't really have just one person wailing on the boss as a tank while the rest run around popping various mechanics every now and again.
That certainly could be something they add but the very nature of how D3 plays makes it less likely we'll simply see rehashed fight mechanics from bosses in WoW.
*Edit* Also I'm not sure what your point is in comparing the fact that they reused mechanics in the expansions of WoW itself to boss mechanics in a Diablo game. That doesn't really seem like a valid comparison to me.
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Actually the games aren't that dissimilar. You have a brawler game with the usual archetype heroes who kill a lot of monsters. While I'll admit freely that the skeleton king isn't an indicator of every boss in the game his abilities are easily recognizable and a stable of WoW. His first ability is to teleport on top of the player and perform a knockbacking AoE that does a large amount of damage which you need to avoid. He will also randomly teleport away from the player and summon adds and his main attack is slow and avoidable if you move away from it.
Other abilities I predict from bosses in the full game are rotating lasers, large targeted strikes on an area of the floor, flying bosses that have to be taken down with harpoons and bosses that become invincible for every 25% of health they lose until you kill an add wave or destroy a pillar. These are all interesting mechanics but we've seen them before and I honestly don't believe that Blizzard are creative enough to make Diablo 3 a completely unique experience.
But of course I can't know that. But that was a game where you definitely had to memorize boss mechanics and perform at 100% or get dropped to the canvas.
Granted, there's only so many mechanics that can exist in a video game, but it's not like WoW was the first to employ them in boss fights. This is a peeve of mine.
Maybe WoW was the first to have some super-neat mechanic like a boss that makes abilities restart their cooldown when he hits you, I dunno. But things like teleporting, elemental effects, AoE, and adds were around before WoW.
My original point was that my raiding experience in WoW gave me an edge in Diablo 3. I wasn't really attributing these mechanics solely to WoW.
Now this I can see as being something they would do. The style would mesh much more closely with D3 than WoW.
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My point is that I don't think they're WoW-exclusive tropes; playing pretty much any MMO as much as you played WoW would probably give you an edge.
Still don't get what that means. Does that mean you'll find a weapon in the dungeon before the boss that the boss is weak against and you'll have to exploit that?
It means you'll spend hours of your life fishing in that pond, trying to catch something that may not exist....
what? Is that not was Ocarina of Time was about?
:^: :^:
I like to think it means that bosses will start firing more and more projectiles out and that you need to knock back the Bombs to hit their weak point.
Ooo or a Bullet hell boss would be fun
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Boss Mechanics? in Diablo? The only boss mechanic is Diablo games is don't let the boss kill you. I mean the only mechanics I can think of is run away from the red lightening and make sure to throw up a town portal before you aggro. Killing bosses is almost always just a gear check, do you have enough hit point and resistances to survive.
Diablo 3 isn't Diablo 2. Bosses will do a number of things you need to react to or you die, I don't care how much gear you have, if you stand in the fire you're going to die. Bosses are also in their own event instance and you can't use a town portal while the fight is on or you have to restart it.