Warlock82Never pet a burning dogRegistered Userregular
Yeah, that's what I'm saying though. You could kind of tell how to outfit them based on their base stats. The impression I get here though is that rookies will be kind of blank slates and I'm worried about situations like you mentioned - giving the big canon to someone who turns out to be a Sniper or something. But I don't know, there isn't a lot of info to go on yet.
Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
edited January 2012
I'm digging that squaddies have classes, but you don't know what until they level up. I mean, when you play the originals you end up throwing them into classes anyway, you just get stuck having to sift through their stats and find out who will be what. So now you'll find out their class, you just won't have to append something descriptive to each and every soldier. Keeping my fingers crossed that you use soldiers the old-fashioned way, i.e., throw the useless ones out there and hope for better replacements.
Also like the idea of removing time units in favor of a move/act and double move system. Dealing with time units is just tedious as hell; there's really no good way to tell exactly what your soldiers can do in the old XCOMs once you move them because of how weight, tiredness, turning, etc, all work out. Now it'll be just "once you move here, you can do this, every time".
I'm wondering what the upper end of controllable soldiers is going to be, though. You start out with four, but in the first XCOM you can immediately put 14 on a Skyranger and up to 26 with the Avenger. Even with a couple HWPs on board, you're looking at shipping out with 18 soldiers. I don't need a ton of soldiers to command to be happy, but I'd like to be able to at least have 14-15 plus a couple "special" units like HWPs.
Ninja Snarl P on
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Warlock82Never pet a burning dogRegistered Userregular
edited January 2012
I suspect they will dial back the number of soldiers. I don't think it will be a max of 4, but I mean, look at Shadow Wars again - there were several missions where you were only allowed to bring a couple units, and at most I think there were like 8 or 10? It worked pretty well there. And I think it adds a little bit of a strategic element when you can't just pack the Skyranger with a bunch of warm bodies. You can pick specific classes based on what you expect to encounter in the mission. Which is an interesting idea.
Of course, Shadow Wars didn't have freakouts or permanent deaths (death = failed mission), so they'll have to do *something* different.
P.S. - Watched the art video, I actually like the way they did Sectoids. I think they look pretty neat. Mutons look pretty good too.
When a soldier is killed by a destructive enough weapon, "his equipment is so badly damaged that it can't be salvaged."
Ah. So they'll be adding their own fuck you moments.
"What? You want to just salt the earth with those blaster bombs? Well you can do that, but don't expect any salvage. And See that alien there, with the huge death gun? The one that just disintegrated that rookie? You're not getting that laser rifle back from him. Good luck!
I like the sound of that.
You would have to expect that that also counts for grenade explosions too.
I must shower and shake off my shame from walking into a room without Optiwand'ing it first.
But I do want to point out that using F12 to speed up cycles in steam's X-com is a bad idea. what you want to do is open up one of those dos box config files and use ctrl + F in each one till you find one that lists cycles, and adjust the minimum and maximum cycles by 100 fold or so, that will make it so that every game starts at a normal speed.
X-Com would have been a lot tougher if you had to keep good relations. Imagine losing all your bases in a territory if you pissed them off? (or having to defend against human attacks?)
You did have to worry somewhat about relations. The X-COM funding council would shut you down if your score in a few consecutive months was crummy.
I must shower and shake off my shame from walking into a room without Optiwand'ing it first.
But I do want to point out that using F12 to speed up cycles in steam's X-com is a bad idea. what you want to do is open up one of those dos box config files and use ctrl + F in each one till you find one that lists cycles, and adjust the minimum and maximum cycles by 100 fold or so, that will make it so that every game starts at a normal speed.
:^:
Yeah, that works better, although I figured my "hit two buttons" suggestion was easier to remember and more likely to be followed.
Alright guys, This thread has me excited. I bought the bundle off of Steam and have never played X-com before. Which game is easiest to dive right into, albeit with plenty of moments that I won't want to sit down after?
If you have read the info that has been put out on them, the XCOM gunner has to make that shot, if he wants to survive. The thin man would be able to jump on top of him and vomit acid, if it decides not to shoot the gas pump with a plasma gun and send everything to hell.
This game looks better every screenshot I see. The tension of knowing you have one shot, and a 45% chance of survival? That is awesome.
Holy crap, your soldiers are gonna be squishy as hell. I love it. 6/6 health, and the LMG does up to 5 damage itself? Aliens are going to be scary as fuck knowing that their shots are 1 hit kills for a while.
Holy crap, your soldiers are gonna be squishy as hell. I love it. 6/6 health, and the LMG does up to 5 damage itself? Aliens are going to be scary as fuck knowing that their shots are 1 hit kills for a while.
...Just like the original.
Why Firaxis. I am trying to save money here.
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chiasaur11Never doubt a raccoon.Do you think it's trademarked?Registered Userregular
No stat inflation here, which is nice.
10 is a lot type numbers. More boardgame than Final Fantasy. Good times.
Holy crap, your soldiers are gonna be squishy as hell. I love it. 6/6 health, and the LMG does up to 5 damage itself? Aliens are going to be scary as fuck knowing that their shots are 1 hit kills for a while.
The only thing I'm on the fence about is the random generated classes for rookies. I do like how it personalizes you soldiers so you aren't just like okay I'm going to have 1 heavy gunner 1 sniper 2 soldiers. It's going to force you to mix and match your squads to optimize them.
I hope that in the new XCOM you can call in air support (provided they are in the air above the combat site when you start the mission).
While it makes sense to have troops that are at least kind of competent, and it would be totally reasonable to request recruits with particular stat tilts, the time element of getting new recruits and waiting for injured soldiers to heal is something I hope they keep in.
I vaguely remember dropped equipment/corpses getting destroyed by explosions in the original XCOM. However, having a character and all their gear get annihilated in one go sounds exciting. I wonder if they'll have some kind of "exit pill" thing for certain enemy units, where they'd self-disintegrate to prevent you from getting their stuff if you didn't disable them quickly. Then again, it reminds me of how you could have your recruits arm a grenade and not let go of it, so that it'd drop on death and wipe out everything around them.
Hmmm, so the 4-man limit at first is confirmed? Ehhh.
While I'm sure it'll be a great tool for escalating the conflict gradually over time, I can't help but feel that I'd rather just jump in with a full Skyranger right off the bat.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
If each turn was say, thirty seconds to a minute in real time that is a LOT of turns for your air support to arrive.
I suspect they will dial back the number of soldiers. I don't think it will be a max of 4, but I mean, look at Shadow Wars again - there were several missions where you were only allowed to bring a couple units, and at most I think there were like 8 or 10? It worked pretty well there. And I think it adds a little bit of a strategic element when you can't just pack the Skyranger with a bunch of warm bodies. You can pick specific classes based on what you expect to encounter in the mission. Which is an interesting idea.
Of course, Shadow Wars didn't have freakouts or permanent deaths (death = failed mission), so they'll have to do *something* different.
P.S. - Watched the art video, I actually like the way they did Sectoids. I think they look pretty neat. Mutons look pretty good too.
Yeah, I'm not going to condemn the game automatically if I can't control 20 soldiers at once. The higher soldier counts for the late-game stuff in the originals is basically because combat starts getting really nasty and you need to have those extra bodies around so you can actually complete bigger missions. But that's also because the enemy AI gets vision and psychic advantages (both in terms of how psionics are used in the game and knowing where you are), the AI in general is pretty dumb, and there's no cover system to speak of.
I would much, much rather prefer having a max of, say, 10 lean, mean, highly-trained squaddies that you can keep alive by playing smart rather than have to pad out the number with a half-dozen sacrificial redshirts and a couple of tanks. I look at it this way: is it better to have to waste a ton of time sending cannon fodder around corners or is it better to dispense with the cannon fodder and everybody can just look around corners? And I'll be doubly happy with a reduced soldier count if the combat system itself is actually enjoyable; the original turn-based configuration is something you endure, not enjoy. Yeah, yeah, way impressive for its day, but HUGELY outdated and unnecessary now. There's just no reason any more to have a great, elaborate combat environment and then shackle it to a groaning monstrosity of inefficiency.
There have been other games in the genre since X-Com. I'd be fairly sure Firaxis is well aware of how a turn based tactical strategy game should play these days. Sure, they could fuck it up, but it wouldn't be by making it include only the most tedious aspects of X-Com. It would be in the opposite direction.
the original turn-based configuration is something you endure, not enjoy. Yeah, yeah, way impressive for its day, but HUGELY outdated and unnecessary now. There's just no reason any more to have a great, elaborate combat environment and then shackle it to a groaning monstrosity of inefficiency.
I think you'll find that a lot of people prefer turn based over real time or psudo turn-based systems like Dragon Age: Origins (which was implemented extremely well). Valkyria Chronicles was a great advert for how turn based strategy should be done in a modern game. Hell, if this game was sci-fi VC with base management then I'd lap it up and have it's babies.
Everything I've seen so far either sounds great or at least acceptable. The only thing I've got concerns over is moving to a turn/move system rather than the ability to manage your AP (come out from cover, shoot, decide whether to take one more shot or get behind cover etc). Removing management of AP is severe dumbing down in my book. It made sense in Shadow Wars because it's a pick-up-and-play 3DS game but I'd have loved to see proper AP management. Maybe it would be possible as an option/mod for the PC version but it's such a fundamental change in the gameplay mechanic that I can't see it happening.
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Zxerolfor the smaller pieces, my shovel wouldn't doso i took off my boot and used my shoeRegistered Userregular
He's not decrying turn-based combat, but X-Com's particular implementation of one.
Oh, fair enough. I just get paranoid about these things
I'm sure Firaxis has looked at the devestation done by trying to streamline and consoleify (?) the combat in Dragon Age 2 and, um, knows not to isolate it's core audience.
After looking at the screenshots, I think the ">" symbols by each soldier are the number of moves left for that soldier. If you notice, the greyed out ones don't have any, while the others either have 1 or 2 arrows. Plus the play symbol seems appropriate for an action.
Also, it looks like the bars to the side of each soldier are definitely health bars, which you can also see that some soldiers have more than others. (In the screens they range from 5 to 11.)
EDIT: Also I just noticed on some soldiers (and aliens) there is a red down arrow icon that can show up by the action icons. Perhaps that's the overwatch indicator, or maybe that they're being suppressed?
Hmmm, so the 4-man limit at first is confirmed? Ehhh.
While I'm sure it'll be a great tool for escalating the conflict gradually over time, I can't help but feel that I'd rather just jump in with a full Skyranger right off the bat.
It makes sense, it means people who are new to the series can actually focus on learning how to micromanage their troops before getting all 8 tossed their way.
Personally I always played the game with 4-6, otherwise missions took so long they were no longer fun.
I'm guessing the blue outline on the floor is how far you can move, which is awesome. Was always a pain in the ass to tell at a glance just how far you could move and still make a shot (and then you try and bring in backup and whoops, not enough TUs to shoot any more, too bad).
[edit] For me, the only way they could really fuck it up would be the removal of research and base building. I'm not that married to the original combat system, but it was the research and development that made the game for me. That's why I hated UFO: Aftermath, it took away the aspect I enjoyed the most (well, that and the aliens looked like papier mache).
I'm assuming that the 'up to 5 damage' would be with a crit? Not sure though whether the 25% crit would be the chance of critting IF you hit, or the chance that your shot will hit AND be a crit. If it's the former then that would mean that the guy in the picture has effectively 11% chance to crit.
I'm assuming that the 'up to 5 damage' would be with a crit? Not sure though whether the 25% crit would be the chance of critting IF you hit, or the chance that your shot will hit AND be a crit. If it's the former then that would mean that the guy in the picture has effectively 11% chance to crit.
Makes sense, 4 base damage with 1 extra for a critical.
I'm dabbling in X-COM Apocalypse for the first time in about 12 years. Despite X-COM: Enemy Unknown being my favourite game ever, I can't quite seem to get into Apoc.
I didn't like the 1-base thing, but 4 guys per mission is a deal-breaker for me. That's dumbing it down far too much.
Four guys to start with. More to come later.
And I'm genuinely interested to know, what does a second base offer you gameplay wise? Going through the motions of making another carbon copy base and dealing with resource shuffling between sites were not really that compelling to me in the original games.
And I'm genuinely interested to know, what does a second base offer you gameplay wise? Going through the motions of making another carbon copy base and dealing with resource shuffling between sites were not really that compelling to me in the original games.
You didn't build carbon-copy bases. Not on Superhuman when you wanted to maximize efficiency, anyway. You built a few research bases, a manufacturing base and a handful of interception bases.
Managing that (keeping your cashflow positive while replacing recruits & equipment as well as paying upkeep, ensuring you had sufficient radar coverage in the right areas) was fun & cerebral. Now, parts of the base management were dumb & unnecessary (establishing a heavy laser economy, for example), but stripping all of it away in favour of 'Press Y to Scan for UFOs' is pretty clearly a concession to console gamers who, so goes the perception, don't like cerebral activities.
Posts
Also like the idea of removing time units in favor of a move/act and double move system. Dealing with time units is just tedious as hell; there's really no good way to tell exactly what your soldiers can do in the old XCOMs once you move them because of how weight, tiredness, turning, etc, all work out. Now it'll be just "once you move here, you can do this, every time".
I'm wondering what the upper end of controllable soldiers is going to be, though. You start out with four, but in the first XCOM you can immediately put 14 on a Skyranger and up to 26 with the Avenger. Even with a couple HWPs on board, you're looking at shipping out with 18 soldiers. I don't need a ton of soldiers to command to be happy, but I'd like to be able to at least have 14-15 plus a couple "special" units like HWPs.
Of course, Shadow Wars didn't have freakouts or permanent deaths (death = failed mission), so they'll have to do *something* different.
P.S. - Watched the art video, I actually like the way they did Sectoids. I think they look pretty neat. Mutons look pretty good too.
You would have to expect that that also counts for grenade explosions too.
But I do want to point out that using F12 to speed up cycles in steam's X-com is a bad idea. what you want to do is open up one of those dos box config files and use ctrl + F in each one till you find one that lists cycles, and adjust the minimum and maximum cycles by 100 fold or so, that will make it so that every game starts at a normal speed.
:^:
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
Yeah, that works better, although I figured my "hit two buttons" suggestion was easier to remember and more likely to be followed.
Wow, the thin man actually looks kinda creepy.
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
You never get in a firefight near a gas station.
And if you do, you stay waaaaaaaay far away and shoot the gas pumps. Duh.
EDIT: Beat'd.
If you have read the info that has been put out on them, the XCOM gunner has to make that shot, if he wants to survive. The thin man would be able to jump on top of him and vomit acid, if it decides not to shoot the gas pump with a plasma gun and send everything to hell.
This game looks better every screenshot I see. The tension of knowing you have one shot, and a 45% chance of survival? That is awesome.
...Just like the original.
Why Firaxis. I am trying to save money here.
10 is a lot type numbers. More boardgame than Final Fantasy. Good times.
Why I fear the ocean.
PSN: Threeve703
Yes, I know. I am super excited by these numbers.
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
While it makes sense to have troops that are at least kind of competent, and it would be totally reasonable to request recruits with particular stat tilts, the time element of getting new recruits and waiting for injured soldiers to heal is something I hope they keep in.
I vaguely remember dropped equipment/corpses getting destroyed by explosions in the original XCOM. However, having a character and all their gear get annihilated in one go sounds exciting. I wonder if they'll have some kind of "exit pill" thing for certain enemy units, where they'd self-disintegrate to prevent you from getting their stuff if you didn't disable them quickly. Then again, it reminds me of how you could have your recruits arm a grenade and not let go of it, so that it'd drop on death and wipe out everything around them.
Otherwise you'll get: "Interceptors are refuelling. ETA 7 hours."
Hope you can hold out.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
stream
While I'm sure it'll be a great tool for escalating the conflict gradually over time, I can't help but feel that I'd rather just jump in with a full Skyranger right off the bat.
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
Yeah, I'm not going to condemn the game automatically if I can't control 20 soldiers at once. The higher soldier counts for the late-game stuff in the originals is basically because combat starts getting really nasty and you need to have those extra bodies around so you can actually complete bigger missions. But that's also because the enemy AI gets vision and psychic advantages (both in terms of how psionics are used in the game and knowing where you are), the AI in general is pretty dumb, and there's no cover system to speak of.
I would much, much rather prefer having a max of, say, 10 lean, mean, highly-trained squaddies that you can keep alive by playing smart rather than have to pad out the number with a half-dozen sacrificial redshirts and a couple of tanks. I look at it this way: is it better to have to waste a ton of time sending cannon fodder around corners or is it better to dispense with the cannon fodder and everybody can just look around corners? And I'll be doubly happy with a reduced soldier count if the combat system itself is actually enjoyable; the original turn-based configuration is something you endure, not enjoy. Yeah, yeah, way impressive for its day, but HUGELY outdated and unnecessary now. There's just no reason any more to have a great, elaborate combat environment and then shackle it to a groaning monstrosity of inefficiency.
I think you'll find that a lot of people prefer turn based over real time or psudo turn-based systems like Dragon Age: Origins (which was implemented extremely well). Valkyria Chronicles was a great advert for how turn based strategy should be done in a modern game. Hell, if this game was sci-fi VC with base management then I'd lap it up and have it's babies.
Everything I've seen so far either sounds great or at least acceptable. The only thing I've got concerns over is moving to a turn/move system rather than the ability to manage your AP (come out from cover, shoot, decide whether to take one more shot or get behind cover etc). Removing management of AP is severe dumbing down in my book. It made sense in Shadow Wars because it's a pick-up-and-play 3DS game but I'd have loved to see proper AP management. Maybe it would be possible as an option/mod for the PC version but it's such a fundamental change in the gameplay mechanic that I can't see it happening.
I'm sure Firaxis has looked at the devestation done by trying to streamline and consoleify (?) the combat in Dragon Age 2 and, um, knows not to isolate it's core audience.
Also, it looks like the bars to the side of each soldier are definitely health bars, which you can also see that some soldiers have more than others. (In the screens they range from 5 to 11.)
EDIT: Also I just noticed on some soldiers (and aliens) there is a red down arrow icon that can show up by the action icons. Perhaps that's the overwatch indicator, or maybe that they're being suppressed?
Personally I always played the game with 4-6, otherwise missions took so long they were no longer fun.
I'm guessing the blue outline on the floor is how far you can move, which is awesome. Was always a pain in the ass to tell at a glance just how far you could move and still make a shot (and then you try and bring in backup and whoops, not enough TUs to shoot any more, too bad).
[edit] For me, the only way they could really fuck it up would be the removal of research and base building. I'm not that married to the original combat system, but it was the research and development that made the game for me. That's why I hated UFO: Aftermath, it took away the aspect I enjoyed the most (well, that and the aliens looked like papier mache).
Makes sense, 4 base damage with 1 extra for a critical.
Someone tell me awesome stories about it.
I didn't like the 1-base thing, but 4 guys per mission is a deal-breaker for me. That's dumbing it down far too much.
Four guys to start with. More to come later.
And I'm genuinely interested to know, what does a second base offer you gameplay wise? Going through the motions of making another carbon copy base and dealing with resource shuffling between sites were not really that compelling to me in the original games.
You didn't build carbon-copy bases. Not on Superhuman when you wanted to maximize efficiency, anyway. You built a few research bases, a manufacturing base and a handful of interception bases.
Managing that (keeping your cashflow positive while replacing recruits & equipment as well as paying upkeep, ensuring you had sufficient radar coverage in the right areas) was fun & cerebral. Now, parts of the base management were dumb & unnecessary (establishing a heavy laser economy, for example), but stripping all of it away in favour of 'Press Y to Scan for UFOs' is pretty clearly a concession to console gamers who, so goes the perception, don't like cerebral activities.