I was referencing moreso the tendency to do a 4 gate +1 timing off of a FFE as opposed to Dhal's gateway forge opening. It seems like every FFE I've seen as of late goes -> 4 gate +1 zealot pressure (with or without a void ray) -> early third or all in, with most players choosing to go for some sort of collosus followup, pushing around 12:00.
I haven't really seen a good response to it yet, both on my end or in pro games.
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking of. With the void ray it seems pretty dangerous, but defending the gate pressure (even after a fast third) isn't difficult on most maps. Maybe if Zerg takes the low ground or far third on TDA it could be trouble. Maybe I'm not watching the right games, it just doesn't look that scary and I haven't had any problems with it
I don't know how much of MC you watched at homestory, but he basically used it all tournament long and didn't drop a single game to a Zerg. There was also another protoss who was doing the same thing against Dimaga, and he looked completely lost.
It's also the build that Naniwa used on every single zerg at MLG providence, beating Nestea and DRG with it pretty easily. Maybe I've been watching the wrong games too, but it feels like it stops the zerg from being able to saturate their third base before the game actually starts, and then you can follow it up with whatever you want (MC choosing DT's, other players going stargate, gateway, or even collosus timings).
Most games end up looking like this: FFE-> +1 zealot timing -> some sort of harass -> all-in from 2 base. Basically they deny saturation at the third, delay the other players mutalisk switch by harassing and then go kill them as they try to switch.
Some of the other tosses @ homestory were expanding after the harass, but from streams I've been watching, the all in is much more common.
I have one RL friend who I play this game with. I've noticed that when I play him, I play harder, and I've had some good comeback wins (he likes to play very aggressively early in the game). When I'm on the ladder, if I fall behind early I usually just gg and hit the orange button again.
So today, remembering that, I tried to play a little harder on the ladder. Lo and behold, had a good comeback win after a Toss wrecked my natural with an immortal push. I have to admit I actually fist-pumped when he gged out of a game that I would usually have quit myself several minutes earlier.
I really like the FFE into +1 zealot 4gate. It's just like a voidray opening, you hope and usually can do damage if executed properly but you are still fine if it gets shut down. It's just a way to pressure and force unit production, and meanwhile you can tech in any direction that you want.
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Seguerof the VoidSydney, AustraliaRegistered Userregular
In the last couple of weeks I have lost my drive to continue to improve. Combination of life events and the closure of the MLG writing department. Perhaps I will join the ranks of the forever platinum.
Noooo Trunkers! But you do so many funny interesting things when you play!
I should hit gold sometime by the end of this week, but when I get to platinum, I challenge you to a duel! I guess you could take a break, but it will make defeating you all that more easy once I catch up to your league.
You have been warned.
I will cast this showmatch.
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TannerMS "I'm confidence cause I'm zerg!"Registered Userregular
Also: you can download the entire MLG providence replay pack, Naniwa does the same thing in almost every game he has vs Zerg.
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
I won probably my first serious, long, macro game yesterday...like "45 minutes, nearly every base on the map taken" long. These are very rare beasts in the wilds of silver. I've been playing this game since it released, and this is probably my first one on the ladder.
I'm not sure I out-macroed the guy, per se, I just made a really good tech switch at the end. I quickly tech switched to Banshees late, and added them to my marine/tank army. Banelings and roaches aren't terribly good against Banshees, if you were curious. He had mutas, but never a huge mass. 10 here, 15 there, and I had fully upgraded marines which cut through those pretty quickly. He seemed to give up on it and go pure bane + roach.
I was pretty proud of myself though. With five functioning bases, I never floated more than ~900 minerals...which isn't yeah know, GOOD, but for a silver player I didn't think it was bad.
In the last couple of weeks I have lost my drive to continue to improve. Combination of life events and the closure of the MLG writing department. Perhaps I will join the ranks of the forever platinum.
Noooo Trunkers! But you do so many funny interesting things when you play!
I should hit gold sometime by the end of this week, but when I get to platinum, I challenge you to a duel! I guess you could take a break, but it will make defeating you all that more easy once I catch up to your league.
You have been warned.
I don't know how much of MC you watched at homestory, but he basically used it all tournament long and didn't drop a single game to a Zerg. There was also another protoss who was doing the same thing against Dimaga, and he looked completely lost.
It's also the build that Naniwa used on every single zerg at MLG providence, beating Nestea and DRG with it pretty easily. Maybe I've been watching the wrong games too, but it feels like it stops the zerg from being able to saturate their third base before the game actually starts, and then you can follow it up with whatever you want (MC choosing DT's, other players going stargate, gateway, or even collosus timings).
Most games end up looking like this: FFE-> +1 zealot timing -> some sort of harass -> all-in from 2 base. Basically they deny saturation at the third, delay the other players mutalisk switch by harassing and then go kill them as they try to switch.
Some of the other tosses @ homestory were expanding after the harass, but from streams I've been watching, the all in is much more common.
Sorry but... were there any Korean-good zerg even there aside from Stephano?
I made a game! Hotline Maui. Requires mouse and keyboard.
I won probably my first serious, long, macro game yesterday...like "45 minutes, nearly every base on the map taken" long. These are very rare beasts in the wilds of silver. I've been playing this game since it released, and this is probably my first one on the ladder.
I'm not sure I out-macroed the guy, per se, I just made a really good tech switch at the end. I quickly tech switched to Banshees late, and added them to my marine/tank army. Banelings and roaches aren't terribly good against Banshees, if you were curious. He had mutas, but never a huge mass. 10 here, 15 there, and I had fully upgraded marines which cut through those pretty quickly. He seemed to give up on it and go pure bane + roach.
I was pretty proud of myself though. With five functioning bases, I never floated more than ~900 minerals...which isn't yeah know, GOOD, but for a silver player I didn't think it was bad.
Less then 900 minerals floated on 5 bases is very good, as long as at least 3-4 of them are actually still functioning.
I don't know how much of MC you watched at homestory, but he basically used it all tournament long and didn't drop a single game to a Zerg. There was also another protoss who was doing the same thing against Dimaga, and he looked completely lost.
It's also the build that Naniwa used on every single zerg at MLG providence, beating Nestea and DRG with it pretty easily. Maybe I've been watching the wrong games too, but it feels like it stops the zerg from being able to saturate their third base before the game actually starts, and then you can follow it up with whatever you want (MC choosing DT's, other players going stargate, gateway, or even collosus timings).
Most games end up looking like this: FFE-> +1 zealot timing -> some sort of harass -> all-in from 2 base. Basically they deny saturation at the third, delay the other players mutalisk switch by harassing and then go kill them as they try to switch.
Some of the other tosses @ homestory were expanding after the harass, but from streams I've been watching, the all in is much more common.
Sorry but... were there any Korean-good zerg even there aside from Stephano?
I won probably my first serious, long, macro game yesterday...like "45 minutes, nearly every base on the map taken" long. These are very rare beasts in the wilds of silver. I've been playing this game since it released, and this is probably my first one on the ladder.
I'm not sure I out-macroed the guy, per se, I just made a really good tech switch at the end. I quickly tech switched to Banshees late, and added them to my marine/tank army. Banelings and roaches aren't terribly good against Banshees, if you were curious. He had mutas, but never a huge mass. 10 here, 15 there, and I had fully upgraded marines which cut through those pretty quickly. He seemed to give up on it and go pure bane + roach.
I was pretty proud of myself though. With five functioning bases, I never floated more than ~900 minerals...which isn't yeah know, GOOD, but for a silver player I didn't think it was bad.
5 bases and not going over 900 mins is Code S play.
Unless, those 5 bases have no workers and your orbital energy is maxed.
Then you're at SEA GM play.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
I won probably my first serious, long, macro game yesterday...like "45 minutes, nearly every base on the map taken" long. These are very rare beasts in the wilds of silver. I've been playing this game since it released, and this is probably my first one on the ladder.
I'm not sure I out-macroed the guy, per se, I just made a really good tech switch at the end. I quickly tech switched to Banshees late, and added them to my marine/tank army. Banelings and roaches aren't terribly good against Banshees, if you were curious. He had mutas, but never a huge mass. 10 here, 15 there, and I had fully upgraded marines which cut through those pretty quickly. He seemed to give up on it and go pure bane + roach.
I was pretty proud of myself though. With five functioning bases, I never floated more than ~900 minerals...which isn't yeah know, GOOD, but for a silver player I didn't think it was bad.
5 bases and not going over 900 mins is Code S play.
Unless, those 5 bases have no workers and your orbital energy is maxed.
Then you're at SEA GM play.
They had workers and my orbital energy wasn't maxed, but also wasn't empty (I need to scan more late game).
Now if I could just get code S micro and control, while keeping five bases functioning, I would be golden. This was very much "five bases, macro your ass off, and just a-move the globs of units you are producing across the map and hope you overwhelm him".
I won probably my first serious, long, macro game yesterday...like "45 minutes, nearly every base on the map taken" long. These are very rare beasts in the wilds of silver. I've been playing this game since it released, and this is probably my first one on the ladder.
I'm not sure I out-macroed the guy, per se, I just made a really good tech switch at the end. I quickly tech switched to Banshees late, and added them to my marine/tank army. Banelings and roaches aren't terribly good against Banshees, if you were curious. He had mutas, but never a huge mass. 10 here, 15 there, and I had fully upgraded marines which cut through those pretty quickly. He seemed to give up on it and go pure bane + roach.
I was pretty proud of myself though. With five functioning bases, I never floated more than ~900 minerals...which isn't yeah know, GOOD, but for a silver player I didn't think it was bad.
5 bases and not going over 900 mins is Code S play.
Unless, those 5 bases have no workers and your orbital energy is maxed.
Then you're at SEA GM play.
Hey.
Shut up.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
jesus christ biosys your win streak in the last few days is insane.
Man. This game is reeeeaaaaalllllyyyyy unfun sometimes.
Edit: Replays from my night. Any guidance would be greatly appreciated. I have an idea in my head of a few things I need to be more mindful of, but I'd like to get some outside perspective.
I forgot to look at this last night so I quickly sped through the ZvP this morning
If you're going to 1gate expand, don't get your second gas until after the nexus and 2 gates.
overall your probe production was good pre-expand, and horrible post-expand. You had long stretches of 15+ seconds where neither Nexus was producing anything, and for every 15 seconds thats 1 lost probe per Nexus. This resulted in having a 4base economy with only 55 probes where you should have had 75-80, which meant your economy was horrible. His was too, but you could have steamrolled this game if you'd constantly made probes from your first 2 nexuses and been able to saturate all your bases.
What lost you this game was your engagements. Never blink your stalkers forward like that when you don't know whats behind them! In addition, you had only two sentries. Against roach hydra, you need at least six in your army at all times - if you lose them, replace them.
Aside from that it was pretty good, your timings for your expansions were good. I didn't like the poke that cost you a bunch of army. In addition, you didn't make any observers while your robotics bay was building - this meant that once he showed his burrow, you had to spend time that could have been used making Colossus, on making observers so that he couldnt burrow past you.
I'm giving this game a rest for a while. I have a major Steam related backlog and I don't want to play unless I can really sit there and ladder ladder ladder and GTFO of Bronze. I have one semester left and that takes priority over the backlog.
The question is, finishing Skyrim or Xenoblade. Killing Dragons with Nords or killing Jesus with huge titties.
Man. This game is reeeeaaaaalllllyyyyy unfun sometimes.
Edit: Replays from my night. Any guidance would be greatly appreciated. I have an idea in my head of a few things I need to be more mindful of, but I'd like to get some outside perspective.
I forgot to look at this last night so I quickly sped through the ZvP this morning
If you're going to 1gate expand, don't get your second gas until after the nexus and 2 gates.
overall your probe production was good pre-expand, and horrible post-expand. You had long stretches of 15+ seconds where neither Nexus was producing anything, and for every 15 seconds thats 1 lost probe per Nexus. This resulted in having a 4base economy with only 55 probes where you should have had 75-80, which meant your economy was horrible. His was too, but you could have steamrolled this game if you'd constantly made probes from your first 2 nexuses and been able to saturate all your bases.
What lost you this game was your engagements. Never blink your stalkers forward like that when you don't know whats behind them! In addition, you had only two sentries. Against roach hydra, you need at least six in your army at all times - if you lose them, replace them.
Aside from that it was pretty good, your timings for your expansions were good. I didn't like the poke that cost you a bunch of army. In addition, you didn't make any observers while your robotics bay was building - this meant that once he showed his burrow, you had to spend time that could have been used making Colossus, on making observers so that he couldnt burrow past you.
Yeah, I def. have trouble keeping probes at the forefront once I get to two bases. I haven't gotten used to thinking about expansion #3 and beyond so I tend to just let economy fall off. I feel like normally I do get obs out first, I just spotted the hydra den already making before my robo was down and I felt pressured to get something beefier out and completely forgot that burrow existed. I felt like the robo was super late that game anyways. I just started doing that build and I'm still really shaky on knowing when I can afford more production buildings.
Engagements going poorly was the theme of last night. I was probably pushing too hard to be aggressive because normally I am wayyyyy turtle-y in all matchups. Also I lack discipline and patience.
oh look, cloaked banshee 3 games in a row. So gosu.
also: Exploiting the fact that protoss has no early game scouting against terran - mega gosu.
and MC, the best protoss in the world, gets KOed in the Ro32.
this is such a funny post because MC didn't get KO'd at all, could have easily made an observer instead of trying to pressure in that game, AND ended up surviving thanks to some strong cheese himself against both forgg and leenock
part of me thinks I should never read the pages of posts for tourney games when I watch them after the fact, especially if a terran wins plays at all, but it's actually worth it so I know the stupidity flying out of people's mouths.
get over your severe hatred of terran maybe you'll win more against them.
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Vari fighting!
For what its worth Vari I totally agree with you. MC and Supernova both played very well in their series.
I do feel like Supernova stole an easy victory with his banshees, but at the same time MC is a goddamn Code S Protoss, he should know the timings on when cloak banshees can be at your base and have something prepared for them if he can't rule them out based on what he scouts.
I didn't actually get to watch any of ForGG's games, what were they like? Typical 1 and 2base stuff right outta 2010, or proper Terran play?
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Man. This game is reeeeaaaaalllllyyyyy unfun sometimes.
Edit: Replays from my night. Any guidance would be greatly appreciated. I have an idea in my head of a few things I need to be more mindful of, but I'd like to get some outside perspective.
I forgot to look at this last night so I quickly sped through the ZvP this morning
If you're going to 1gate expand, don't get your second gas until after the nexus and 2 gates.
overall your probe production was good pre-expand, and horrible post-expand. You had long stretches of 15+ seconds where neither Nexus was producing anything, and for every 15 seconds thats 1 lost probe per Nexus. This resulted in having a 4base economy with only 55 probes where you should have had 75-80, which meant your economy was horrible. His was too, but you could have steamrolled this game if you'd constantly made probes from your first 2 nexuses and been able to saturate all your bases.
What lost you this game was your engagements. Never blink your stalkers forward like that when you don't know whats behind them! In addition, you had only two sentries. Against roach hydra, you need at least six in your army at all times - if you lose them, replace them.
Aside from that it was pretty good, your timings for your expansions were good. I didn't like the poke that cost you a bunch of army. In addition, you didn't make any observers while your robotics bay was building - this meant that once he showed his burrow, you had to spend time that could have been used making Colossus, on making observers so that he couldnt burrow past you.
Yeah, I def. have trouble keeping probes at the forefront once I get to two bases. I haven't gotten used to thinking about expansion #3 and beyond so I tend to just let economy fall off. I feel like normally I do get obs out first, I just spotted the hydra den already making before my robo was down and I felt pressured to get something beefier out and completely forgot that burrow existed. I felt like the robo was super late that game anyways. I just started doing that build and I'm still really shaky on knowing when I can afford more production buildings.
Engagements going poorly was the theme of last night. I was probably pushing too hard to be aggressive because normally I am wayyyyy turtle-y in all matchups. Also I lack discipline and patience.
Thanks for taking the time to look at the game.
For what its worth, you can be happy with the decision to 1gate expand - its the best opener you can do if you've already put down a gate and a core and you scout a hatch first.
Posts
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking of. With the void ray it seems pretty dangerous, but defending the gate pressure (even after a fast third) isn't difficult on most maps. Maybe if Zerg takes the low ground or far third on TDA it could be trouble. Maybe I'm not watching the right games, it just doesn't look that scary and I haven't had any problems with it
It's also the build that Naniwa used on every single zerg at MLG providence, beating Nestea and DRG with it pretty easily. Maybe I've been watching the wrong games too, but it feels like it stops the zerg from being able to saturate their third base before the game actually starts, and then you can follow it up with whatever you want (MC choosing DT's, other players going stargate, gateway, or even collosus timings).
Most games end up looking like this: FFE-> +1 zealot timing -> some sort of harass -> all-in from 2 base. Basically they deny saturation at the third, delay the other players mutalisk switch by harassing and then go kill them as they try to switch.
Some of the other tosses @ homestory were expanding after the harass, but from streams I've been watching, the all in is much more common.
Can I watch it
I will cast this showmatch.
Seems like a carapace upgrade first is super common against a FFE too.
Several weeks ago? I'm like, top 8 silver right now
Also: you can download the entire MLG providence replay pack, Naniwa does the same thing in almost every game he has vs Zerg.
I'm not sure I out-macroed the guy, per se, I just made a really good tech switch at the end. I quickly tech switched to Banshees late, and added them to my marine/tank army. Banelings and roaches aren't terribly good against Banshees, if you were curious. He had mutas, but never a huge mass. 10 here, 15 there, and I had fully upgraded marines which cut through those pretty quickly. He seemed to give up on it and go pure bane + roach.
I was pretty proud of myself though. With five functioning bases, I never floated more than ~900 minerals...which isn't yeah know, GOOD, but for a silver player I didn't think it was bad.
Sorry but... were there any Korean-good zerg even there aside from Stephano?
Less then 900 minerals floated on 5 bases is very good, as long as at least 3-4 of them are actually still functioning.
Flamma inferno
Igne cutis
Flamma inferno
Igne cutis
nerchio and dimaga?
also top 8 diamond *flex*
5 bases and not going over 900 mins is Code S play.
Unless, those 5 bases have no workers and your orbital energy is maxed.
Then you're at SEA GM play.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
They had workers and my orbital energy wasn't maxed, but also wasn't empty (I need to scan more late game).
Now if I could just get code S micro and control, while keeping five bases functioning, I would be golden. This was very much "five bases, macro your ass off, and just a-move the globs of units you are producing across the map and hope you overwhelm him".
Hey.
Shut up.
Now I want custom base decals.
Reaper in the old mudflap Yosemite Sam "BACK OFF" posture
"Insured by Roach and Warren"
"Nothing in this power field is worth your life"
Your Ad Here! Reasonable Rates!
Seguer Seal of Approval
All of it.
I would pay for your sign just so I could save the replay of my mutas destroying it.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=302039
Vindication.
I forgot to look at this last night so I quickly sped through the ZvP this morning
If you're going to 1gate expand, don't get your second gas until after the nexus and 2 gates.
overall your probe production was good pre-expand, and horrible post-expand. You had long stretches of 15+ seconds where neither Nexus was producing anything, and for every 15 seconds thats 1 lost probe per Nexus. This resulted in having a 4base economy with only 55 probes where you should have had 75-80, which meant your economy was horrible. His was too, but you could have steamrolled this game if you'd constantly made probes from your first 2 nexuses and been able to saturate all your bases.
What lost you this game was your engagements. Never blink your stalkers forward like that when you don't know whats behind them! In addition, you had only two sentries. Against roach hydra, you need at least six in your army at all times - if you lose them, replace them.
Aside from that it was pretty good, your timings for your expansions were good. I didn't like the poke that cost you a bunch of army. In addition, you didn't make any observers while your robotics bay was building - this meant that once he showed his burrow, you had to spend time that could have been used making Colossus, on making observers so that he couldnt burrow past you.
http://www.justin.tv/thewoodleagueallstars
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
I would extend this to the vast majority of terrans.
This is a toxic and completely incorrect line of thought.
The question is, finishing Skyrim or Xenoblade. Killing Dragons with Nords or killing Jesus with huge titties.
Yeah, I def. have trouble keeping probes at the forefront once I get to two bases. I haven't gotten used to thinking about expansion #3 and beyond so I tend to just let economy fall off. I feel like normally I do get obs out first, I just spotted the hydra den already making before my robo was down and I felt pressured to get something beefier out and completely forgot that burrow existed. I felt like the robo was super late that game anyways. I just started doing that build and I'm still really shaky on knowing when I can afford more production buildings.
Engagements going poorly was the theme of last night. I was probably pushing too hard to be aggressive because normally I am wayyyyy turtle-y in all matchups. Also I lack discipline and patience.
Thanks for taking the time to look at the game.
not true at all
this is such a funny post because MC didn't get KO'd at all, could have easily made an observer instead of trying to pressure in that game, AND ended up surviving thanks to some strong cheese himself against both forgg and leenock
part of me thinks I should never read the pages of posts for tourney games when I watch them after the fact, especially if a terran wins plays at all, but it's actually worth it so I know the stupidity flying out of people's mouths.
get over your severe hatred of terran maybe you'll win more against them.
also Supernova isn't a bad terran you psycho.
For what its worth Vari I totally agree with you. MC and Supernova both played very well in their series.
I do feel like Supernova stole an easy victory with his banshees, but at the same time MC is a goddamn Code S Protoss, he should know the timings on when cloak banshees can be at your base and have something prepared for them if he can't rule them out based on what he scouts.
I didn't actually get to watch any of ForGG's games, what were they like? Typical 1 and 2base stuff right outta 2010, or proper Terran play?
For what its worth, you can be happy with the decision to 1gate expand - its the best opener you can do if you've already put down a gate and a core and you scout a hatch first.
I would be completely shocked if it were not even a little true.
He says goofy over the top nostalgic wrong stuff virtually as a standard caster build order, as it were.
He went 3OC against against MC on Belshir off of 1rax fe. Real ballsy, but it payed off.