@Kambing when your doc says "Team League" do you mean a league for team games or a GSTL-esque format?
I asked him to put that in, and I meant a GSTL-esque format, though properly something close to a proleague format, like Trunkers suggested above, with each player having a particular opponent, not a winner's-league format, the king-of-the-hill setup that GSTL uses.
Generalísimo de Fuerzas Armadas de la República Argentina
How do we all feel about a more drawn out tournament (say a month or so) where you have time to prepare for your opponent (GSL style), but we split it up into a Code S (diamond+Masters) / Code A (Bronze through Plat) type thing?
How do we all feel about a more drawn out tournament (say a month or so) where you have time to prepare for your opponent (GSL style), but we split it up into a Code S (diamond+Masters) / Code A (Bronze through Plat) type thing?
I take it that's the question being asked in the spreadsheet about whether we prefer an MLG-style 'super tournament' or a GSL-style 'league/tournament.' Support seems to be for the GSL-style.
Generalísimo de Fuerzas Armadas de la República Argentina
That still doesn't do a terribly good job accommodating people who we don't hear from again for the rest of the league, which I bet will happen. It also doesn't allow for the backups to play as often as they'd like, when it might in fact be possible for them to play other backups.
It is, however, moving close to my preferred solution: at the beginning of each week, each team captain tells the person running the league how many players on that team can play that week, and which group of players those players are in (gm through diamond, gold/plat, or bronze/silver). For each set between two teams, the league coordinator looks at the availability report for each team and tells each team how many Bo3s their set will involve, based on how many good matchups can be made from the available players.
Complication: Only an even number of good matchups can be made. Solution: Have an ace match, if necessary. The ace match consists of a player from each team in the highest group that a matchup was played in that set.
Complication: A minimal number of good matchups are available, given the two availability reports. Solution: Matchups between people in different groups are optional, for the teams. If both teams decide that they'd like to have a match between two people who are in separate groups, they can. The league coordinator is responsible for putting out some plausible optional matchups.
Example follows, in spoiler.
Example: (example done entirely with variables, I know it's hard to read, just bear with me)
Team Alpha plays Team Beta.
Team Alpha has the following availability:
Player A, top group (GM)
Player B, top group (masters)
Player C, mid group, plat
Player D, mid group, gold
Player E, low group, bronze
Team Beta has the following availability.
Player 1, top group, GM
Player 2, mid group, gold
Player 3, low group, silver
Player 4, low group, bronze
Player 5, low group, bronze
League coordinator says, here are your matches for the week.
A v 1
C vs 2
E vs 4
optional: D vs 3
They play out the week, and as a matter of fact, A beats 1, C beats 2, 4 beats E, and after both teams agree to play the optional match, 3 takes the upset victory over that snotty goldy D. So they're tied at 2-2. They play an ace match. Since a top group matchup was played (A vs 1), the ace match is a matchup of two top group players. Unfortunately, A can't make it to the ace match, so B plays for him instead (still a top group player), but B falls to 1 in the ace match. Beta wins, 3-2.
Yes, this is a significant amount of work for the organizer, but this way, as many people as plausibly can play will be scheduled to play. Moreover, as people drop entirely out, it's not such a big deal because not everyone is scheduled to play each week anyway. I am offering to play the league coordinator role. I do think that I'd like a minimum of 5-7 players per team to make this work, though, which is one reason I wanted to see how much interest there was.
Invictus on
Generalísimo de Fuerzas Armadas de la República Argentina
That still doesn't do a terribly good job accommodating people who we don't hear from again for the rest of the league, which I bet will happen. It also doesn't allow for the backups to play as often as they'd like, when it might in fact be possible for them to play other backups.
I'm willing to accept the possibility of no-show's. Perhaps I'm naive, but I hope only people who can commit sign up. There can be regular CSL's etc happening, but all we need is say 12 dedicated people to get 4 teams of 3. Bigger team sizes and I feel less a part of my team. With just 2 teammates we can feel like a unit, watch each other's games live (or the replays), etc.
TannerMS "I'm confidence cause I'm zerg!"Registered Userregular
edited January 2012
I agree with Trunkers, I think we'll see fewer no-shows than people think. Even if you do have them, it's not an insurmountable disadvantage to be down a man and you could always switch teams to fill gaps.
EDIT: TB Apollo casting BO9 of the best two brits in the worldddddddd
the casters are good. not sure if i understand how good the players are. like I'm not even good enough to appreciate it. its also been a lot of feinting though.
That still doesn't do a terribly good job accommodating people who we don't hear from again for the rest of the league, which I bet will happen. It also doesn't allow for the backups to play as often as they'd like, when it might in fact be possible for them to play other backups.
I'm willing to accept the possibility of no-show's. Perhaps I'm naive, but I hope only people who can commit sign up. There can be regular CSL's etc happening, but all we need is say 12 dedicated people to get 4 teams of 3. Bigger team sizes and I feel less a part of my team. With just 2 teammates we can feel like a unit, watch each other's games live (or the replays), etc.
Well, sometimes only people who can commit sign up, but things go differently in their lives than they anticipated. Sometimes people falling out is a matter of the person getting bored and moving on to other things, but sometimes it's a matter of the lives in question changing in ways that were not reasonably predictable. Given that we'll have a dozen-plus people (at least), we ought to accommodate that possibility.
(also, my experience with Starcraft Arcadia is that more people will drop out than might be expected. I'd rather not lose the league because we lose too many people, as happened to Starcraft Arcadia.)
Generalísimo de Fuerzas Armadas de la República Argentina
In the last 10 minutes of that game, there was always a warp prism behind the terran army dropping templar for storms. Every single engagement was a surround.
What was really impressive that game was the way Bling controlled the map. He had probes/dt's and observers everywhere. He had full map control and awareness almost the entire game. He was never caught off guard and was only out of position once.
Generalísimo de Fuerzas Armadas de la República Argentina
0
TannerMS "I'm confidence cause I'm zerg!"Registered Userregular
I hate terran players...
StarLight: what do you think was my major flaw in that game?
You: hmmm
StarLight: out macro?
You: What was the tank push for?
StarLight: lol idk
i was gonna push 3rd
but your creep scared me
and i didnt wanted get caught unseigde
You: Well, on Shattered the third is behind rocks and getting into position to attack it requires leaving the middle wide open
StarLight: so on that map
i should macro up to 200/200
then attack?
You: Just make sure you're attacking for a reason
StarLight: ok
You: If you moved out there, cleared the creep and took your third
StarLight: whats a good time to attack a zerg
You: As long as you didn't lose anything you're in a great spot
When you have an advantage
StarLight: depends on when they take third?
You: Nobody really gets caught by those 3 tank timings any more though
It's all anyone did for months and months and now we've always got spire on the way and enough creep to hold unless it's super tightly timed
StarLight: Do you think get three quick CC and attack around 14 minutes would be good?
and doing drops in between?
You: It's just not that simple
You should attack when you're at an advantage
RIght when Hive starts or once your second thor is out against his largely muta based army
StarLight: but that could be at around the 17 min mark?
You: It could be around a lot of things, it just depends on the game
StarLight: i like to play really aggressive
should i get a new build that revolves around me playing aggressive
You: You should try to find holes in people's defenses and pressure them
That means reacting instead of saying "move out at 14 every game"
StarLight: i copied that build from slayer boxer and he didnt really pressure much with it
so say sombody gets a third at 7 min
what would be the best time to attack them
since i kno alot of zergs that do that
You: Do they have roaches? Bane speed? A spire or Infestors? Did they actually drone it up or are they just mining minerals?
StarLight: they are jst droning u[ hardcore
You: Is it really vulnerable to drops (Shakuras) or really hard to drop (Antiga)
StarLight: damn once you get to diamond and higher
you really have to think about your games
you cant jst out macro your opp anymore
Whenever I talk to people after games, I usually get really sad because they have no idea why what they did worked or why my plan failed. It's disheartening to know that my mechanics still aren't at a high enough level, so I have to play people like that.
i mean. terran was my bw race. terran is the bro race. but i want to get good at zerg. winning a game with a ling runby owns. zerg owns.
when i first got my sc2 beta key i was convinced that i could go in virgin and beat lemming. he cock slapped me with a marauder push or something. it sucked. anyone read anything about performance psychology? i was all, yeah its gunna be exactly the same as BW im in the zone and lemming sucks at BW thisll be easy. but no its not BW >:(
He needed the minerals to start another barracks and another bunker. He restarted stim once he hit 100 minerals again. I don't know if that was the right call, but that's why he did it.
On tournament structure, I really like the idea of splitting people into "Code S" and "Code A" groups, but why not work that into the individual tournament?
Pool play of 16 players, top 8 go to single elimination "S" bracket, bottom 8 go to single elimination "A" bracket. That way you don't have to deal with the double elim nonsense but everyone gets to play more games at a level where they can compete. I don't think any of our masters players are troll-y enough to end up in the "A" tourney intentionally.
With league play you can keep things interesting by having a point structure that isn't based solely on winning games. That can really encourage people to try their best even against an opponent in a much higher league. It can get kind of silly, but it also makes for fun games, something like:
Winning the game = 10 points
For the losing player:
Each command center built at a mineral line = + 1 pt (max 3)
Each 10 minutes of game time = +1 point (max 5)
Nydus Worms/ Motherships/ Nukes used = +1 pt (max 1)
Or other categories. The point is to reward people for solid/creative play rather than just crushing their bronze league opponent. It certainly encourages other people to watch the replays
Sceptre: Penny Arcade, where you get starcraft AND marriage advice.
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
i just really like the excitement and fun when there's just one tournament that happens all in one day
if we did a finals day or something for whatever league we're doing that'd be cool, but i think doing semi-regular league matches misses out on the entire point why i even care about pa tourneys
I agree with you Bio, I think the league and the tourney should address different needs, but I think that happens naturally because of the structure. The only concern would be if people don't sign up for tourneys because they are in the league.
Edit: Strategy question! Is a late game transition out of vikings into Banshees viable against Protoss? Banshees just do so much more than vikings, though they build much slower, are more supply, and take more gas. It seems like the same principle as getting out of marines to add in ghosts.
Dropping Loads on
Sceptre: Penny Arcade, where you get starcraft AND marriage advice.
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
yeah. bling looked really good. also, I was waiting for those DT's for a long time. I think my DT clock kicks in sooner than most protoss, but they just win so many games! Sure Terran has detection wherever whenever, but they don't have units wherever whenever
i mean. terran was my bw race. terran is the bro race. but i want to get good at zerg. winning a game with a ling runby owns. zerg owns.
when i first got my sc2 beta key i was convinced that i could go in virgin and beat lemming. he cock slapped me with a marauder push or something. it sucked. anyone read anything about performance psychology? i was all, yeah its gunna be exactly the same as BW im in the zone and lemming sucks at BW thisll be easy. but no its not BW >:(
im gunna ladder as zerg i think.
go zerg, all our units are super fast and you can win with any unit combination you can imagine.
Winning the game = 10 points
For the losing player:
Each command center built at a mineral line = + 1 pt (max 3)
Each 10 minutes of game time = +1 point (max 5)
Nydus Worms/ Motherships/ Nukes used = +1 pt (max 1)
Or other categories. The point is to reward people for solid/creative play rather than just crushing their bronze league opponent. It certainly encourages other people to watch the replays
A million thumbs up for this suggestion, I'm basically guaranteed 5 points a game!
i mean. terran was my bw race. terran is the bro race. but i want to get good at zerg. winning a game with a ling runby owns. zerg owns.
when i first got my sc2 beta key i was convinced that i could go in virgin and beat lemming. he cock slapped me with a marauder push or something. it sucked. anyone read anything about performance psychology? i was all, yeah its gunna be exactly the same as BW im in the zone and lemming sucks at BW thisll be easy. but no its not BW >:(
im gunna ladder as zerg i think.
go zerg, all our units are super fast and you can lose with any unit combination you can imagine.
Posts
I asked him to put that in, and I meant a GSTL-esque format, though properly something close to a proleague format, like Trunkers suggested above, with each player having a particular opponent, not a winner's-league format, the king-of-the-hill setup that GSTL uses.
Keep my format, but have a dedicated pool of subs for each pot. If you can't play some week, let us know in the forums and someone else will sub in.
Either that or the subs can come from lower members of your team. So I could replace Dhalphir, but not vice-versa.
casted by tb and apollo 8->
http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/TotalBiscuit
That still doesn't do a terribly good job accommodating people who we don't hear from again for the rest of the league, which I bet will happen. It also doesn't allow for the backups to play as often as they'd like, when it might in fact be possible for them to play other backups.
It is, however, moving close to my preferred solution: at the beginning of each week, each team captain tells the person running the league how many players on that team can play that week, and which group of players those players are in (gm through diamond, gold/plat, or bronze/silver). For each set between two teams, the league coordinator looks at the availability report for each team and tells each team how many Bo3s their set will involve, based on how many good matchups can be made from the available players.
Complication: Only an even number of good matchups can be made. Solution: Have an ace match, if necessary. The ace match consists of a player from each team in the highest group that a matchup was played in that set.
Complication: A minimal number of good matchups are available, given the two availability reports. Solution: Matchups between people in different groups are optional, for the teams. If both teams decide that they'd like to have a match between two people who are in separate groups, they can. The league coordinator is responsible for putting out some plausible optional matchups.
Example follows, in spoiler.
Team Alpha plays Team Beta.
Team Alpha has the following availability:
Player A, top group (GM)
Player B, top group (masters)
Player C, mid group, plat
Player D, mid group, gold
Player E, low group, bronze
Team Beta has the following availability.
Player 1, top group, GM
Player 2, mid group, gold
Player 3, low group, silver
Player 4, low group, bronze
Player 5, low group, bronze
League coordinator says, here are your matches for the week.
A v 1
C vs 2
E vs 4
optional: D vs 3
They play out the week, and as a matter of fact, A beats 1, C beats 2, 4 beats E, and after both teams agree to play the optional match, 3 takes the upset victory over that snotty goldy D. So they're tied at 2-2. They play an ace match. Since a top group matchup was played (A vs 1), the ace match is a matchup of two top group players. Unfortunately, A can't make it to the ace match, so B plays for him instead (still a top group player), but B falls to 1 in the ace match. Beta wins, 3-2.
Yes, this is a significant amount of work for the organizer, but this way, as many people as plausibly can play will be scheduled to play. Moreover, as people drop entirely out, it's not such a big deal because not everyone is scheduled to play each week anyway. I am offering to play the league coordinator role. I do think that I'd like a minimum of 5-7 players per team to make this work, though, which is one reason I wanted to see how much interest there was.
I'm willing to accept the possibility of no-show's. Perhaps I'm naive, but I hope only people who can commit sign up. There can be regular CSL's etc happening, but all we need is say 12 dedicated people to get 4 teams of 3. Bigger team sizes and I feel less a part of my team. With just 2 teammates we can feel like a unit, watch each other's games live (or the replays), etc.
EDIT: TB Apollo casting BO9 of the best two brits in the worldddddddd
the casters are good. not sure if i understand how good the players are. like I'm not even good enough to appreciate it. its also been a lot of feinting though.
Made PAXEast reservations at the completely wrong Westin hotel
*queue facepalm*
Potential $1,200 lost?
*queue epic facepalm*
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
Well, sometimes only people who can commit sign up, but things go differently in their lives than they anticipated. Sometimes people falling out is a matter of the person getting bored and moving on to other things, but sometimes it's a matter of the lives in question changing in ways that were not reasonably predictable. Given that we'll have a dozen-plus people (at least), we ought to accommodate that possibility.
(also, my experience with Starcraft Arcadia is that more people will drop out than might be expected. I'd rather not lose the league because we lose too many people, as happened to Starcraft Arcadia.)
Bling just pulled off one of the most beautiful engagements I've ever seen.
These templar drops are INSANE! Every single engagement, that warp prism is behind the terran army dropping templar. It brings tears to my eyes.
That was some of the best PvT I've ever seen.
Sooo useful when i remember it.
that stim cancel must've been a mistake
Heh. Well, it was definitely a mistake....
I have a conundrum - zerg or terran
i mean. terran was my bw race. terran is the bro race. but i want to get good at zerg. winning a game with a ling runby owns. zerg owns.
when i first got my sc2 beta key i was convinced that i could go in virgin and beat lemming. he cock slapped me with a marauder push or something. it sucked. anyone read anything about performance psychology? i was all, yeah its gunna be exactly the same as BW im in the zone and lemming sucks at BW thisll be easy. but no its not BW >:(
im gunna ladder as zerg i think.
He needed the minerals to start another barracks and another bunker. He restarted stim once he hit 100 minerals again. I don't know if that was the right call, but that's why he did it.
On tournament structure, I really like the idea of splitting people into "Code S" and "Code A" groups, but why not work that into the individual tournament?
Pool play of 16 players, top 8 go to single elimination "S" bracket, bottom 8 go to single elimination "A" bracket. That way you don't have to deal with the double elim nonsense but everyone gets to play more games at a level where they can compete. I don't think any of our masters players are troll-y enough to end up in the "A" tourney intentionally.
With league play you can keep things interesting by having a point structure that isn't based solely on winning games. That can really encourage people to try their best even against an opponent in a much higher league. It can get kind of silly, but it also makes for fun games, something like:
Winning the game = 10 points
For the losing player:
Each command center built at a mineral line = + 1 pt (max 3)
Each 10 minutes of game time = +1 point (max 5)
Nydus Worms/ Motherships/ Nukes used = +1 pt (max 1)
Or other categories. The point is to reward people for solid/creative play rather than just crushing their bronze league opponent. It certainly encourages other people to watch the replays
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
i just really like the excitement and fun when there's just one tournament that happens all in one day
if we did a finals day or something for whatever league we're doing that'd be cool, but i think doing semi-regular league matches misses out on the entire point why i even care about pa tourneys
Edit: Strategy question! Is a late game transition out of vikings into Banshees viable against Protoss? Banshees just do so much more than vikings, though they build much slower, are more supply, and take more gas. It seems like the same principle as getting out of marines to add in ghosts.
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
these have been pretty much the best pvt games i've seen
and there's still more
please note: i avoid pvt as much as possible
those storms
go zerg, all our units are super fast and you can win with any unit combination you can imagine.
B.net: Kusanku
(1 base, 1 minutes, 3+ crazy play)
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
fixed
Now we just need him to post some results.