1. I think you can take damage and then regenerate.
Not quite. You have to do so after blockers have been declared (and ordered, if necessary) but before the damage is actually dealt.
Regeneration is best thought of as a kind of shield (not unlike Protection from X); you have to put it up before you actually get hit or it doesn't work that well.
You could "take damage" and then regenerate when combat damage was on the stack, since Regeneration would be LIFO, but today you'd have to use it after blockers are declared but before damage is dealt
It's like a shield rather than a "bring back to life" mechanism.
Edit: Blah I didn't see the new page, beaten by Vyolynce >_>
so mana leak is too good? i dont like control but i dont think thats true
Mana Leak can shut down a player for the first few rounds until they can keep enough land free, and the threat of it is like a mini Trinisphere if you aren't running a cheap deck. Combine it with something like Snapcaster and it creates a situation where "Why bother playing" is a legitimate question. I think counterspells are important but the sheer power they have at any point in the game can be incredibly difficult to balance.
Do you guys think there is the slightest chance that a deck built around getting out Tyrant of Discord quickly and then flickering him like crazy would be good enough for FNMs and such? I'm thinking RU, but it might also need green for solid ramp. I guess I could use Solemn Simulacrum and Pristine Talisman for a while until the rotation.
If that doesn't work, I definitely want to do something with Tandem Lookout. Him and Invisible Stalker seems like it could work, at least.
EDIT: I would also be unopposed to finding a way to make Arcane Melee awesome in Standard, but that seems less likely.
Birthing Pod seems to me to be the best way to make use of him, R/G/W pod has been seeing some play recently and he's a nice (and considerably cheaper) alternative to Elesh Norn.
He's bad against control but good against honest decks like humans/vampires.
Sorin/Liliana's -6 is probably going to be better (and faster) most of the time though.
That's kind of what I was afraid of. I was hoping Tyrant flicker could be the deck to last me post-rotation, as I've already got a really awesome B-Pod deck. I guess I'll have to look elsewhere.
1. I think you can take damage and then regenerate.
Not quite. You have to do so after blockers have been declared (and ordered, if necessary) but before the damage is actually dealt.
Regeneration is best thought of as a kind of shield (not unlike Protection from X); you have to put it up before you actually get hit or it doesn't work that well.
Yeah that's my bad, I meant that you can put regenerate on the stack "after" (but really before) damage is dealt. I should probably not write rules posts at 3AM.
In competitive formats where you're trying to adhere to a tight mana curve, Mana Leak is effectively "1U: Counter target spell" most of the time.
The only time it's not is if you're casting a 1 CMC spell on turn 4 or similar scenarios (and you don't plan on using the extra mana for another spell), in which case, you're already way behind the curve.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
Besides B-Mikaeus, is there any way to give Vexing Devil Undying before your opponent responds to his ETB trigger?
I'm not sure on the order of operations, honestly. If you have priority to respond to the ETB trigger before your opponent does, then you can drop an Undying Evil on him for one black mana and give him Undying until EOT. At which point your opponent's options are to eat 8 damage or to let him on the field where he will proceed to beat face.
However the triggered effect involves a player choice, and choices like Vexing Devil are made when the trigger resolves.
So here's the order of play:
Vexing Devil enters the battlefield. ETB trigger goes on the stack saying "Any opponent may choose to have Vexing Devil deal 4 damage to him or her..."
Gandalf casts Undying Evil, which goes on the stack.
Resolve stack in reverse order. Undying Evil resolves. Devil now has Undying. Then ETB trigger resolves. Opponent will see that Devil has Undying and choose whether to take the 4 damage or sacrifice the Devil based on that information.
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
However the triggered effect involves a player choice, and choices like Vexing Devil are made when the trigger resolves.
So here's the order of play:
Vexing Devil enters the battlefield. ETB trigger goes on the stack saying "Any opponent may choose to have Vexing Devil deal 4 damage to him or her..."
Gandalf casts Undying Evil, which goes on the stack.
Resolve stack in reverse order. Undying Evil resolves. Devil now has Undying. Then ETB trigger resolves. Opponent will see that Devil has Undying and choose whether to take the 4 damage or sacrifice the Devil based on that information.
It's my own fault for just searching for the answer (yay Bing Rewards, though, another 500 Xbox points).
Fair enough, I saw three or so different people arguing that since it's a triggered ability that priority goes to the opponent first to respond, but it makes more sense that the ETB ability goes on and then Undying Evil gets cast before the decision is made.
It's a nice, tough position to put them in though. They can take eight damage now or they can deal with a 4/3. I can't imagine any player taking the four damage and then not taking four more when it comes back with a +1.
Yeah, I'm sure your opponent will feel really bad about you giving them a dismember and allowing them to cast it without tapping any mana. It's good, but people go a little overboard about it.
Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if every red deck from now until the block is separated or the card is banned runs a 4-set of Vexing Devils; 1 mana for a 4/3 or 4 to the face is pretty nuts.
In the end, it's probably still worse than Goblin Guide -- and that nuisance was everywhere.
GG had to contend with Wall of Omens though, while devil smashes through Spellskite, Angelic Wall and the like. A 4/3 body is just massive in the first few turns. In any format.
That doesn't necessarily make it worth giving up your first turn in order to have your opponent start at 16 life. There will be a lot of things to consider.
Hell, it brings to mind Serra Avenger in some ways. A 3/3 flier (okay, evasion makes this all kinds of awesome) with Vigilence for WW, but can't be cast on the first, second or third turn.
Note: I'm not equating the two cards directly. Just saying it's interesting the evolution of the game, what was considered too powerful to have on the table too early, versus what we get now.
Edit: granted, it doesn't have as much use against creatures as Lightning Bolt, but even viewing it as "Sorcery: R deal 4 damage to your opponent" isn't too shabby.
Now, much like Browbeat and other such cards, they'll just pick the least bad option (why eat the 4 if they can just murder it with removal? Why murder it if they're sitting on some beefy lifelinkers that are about to come online, etc), but if you nail a pair of these early, that's a hell of a lead in the race, potentially.
Of course, I'll probably never own one, let alone four of them, let alone play in a standard tournament, so as usual, feel free to take this idle speculation for pure hatespeech if need be.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
That doesn't necessarily make it worth giving up your first turn in order to have your opponent start at 16 life. There will be a lot of things to consider.
Obviously, just like GG, the devil only fits in specific archetypes. Legacy burn and Modern R/B come to mind where t1 Lava Spike or Bump into the Night isn't uncommon. It certainly beats Spark Elemental which was actually played in Legacy and Extended.
I'm thinking this looks decent for GW. Only concern is that if we see Wolfrun returning due to Cavern Whipflares and Slagstorms would eat it alive.
Deranged Hermit does dirty, dirty things during combat steps though as well as turning your Avacyn's Pilgrims into, well, Soylent Green.
Creatures
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Avacyn’s Pilgrim
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
1 Mikaeus, the Lunarch
2 Deranged Outcast
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Mayor of Avabruck
2 Mentor of the Meek
2 Daybreak Ranger
2 Champion of Lambholt
3 Mirran Crusader
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Sigarda, Host of Herons
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Descendants' Path
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Sunpetal Grove
2 Gavony Township
2 Rootbound Crag
7 Forest
5 Plains
Sideboard:
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Beast Within
3 Timely Reinforcements
2 Witchbane Orb
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Eaten by Spiders
2 Corrosive Gale
I think I have a pretty awesome deck built, been doing some testing in solitaire simulation games... Question though.
If 2 "enter the battlefield" effects are triggering off of the same creature, can I choose which order to execute them in? Here's the example that raised the question.
I have Warstorm Surge in play. (Whenever a creature enters the battlefield under your control, it deals damage equal to its power to target creature or player.)
I have a few creatures in play, and I summon in a Craterhoof Behemoth. (When Craterhoof Behemoth enters the battlefield, creatures you control gain trample and get +X/+X until end of turn, where X is the number of creatures you control.)
Can I add the +X/+X to the Behemoth before I trigger Warstorm Surge with it?
Yes; active player chooses the order that simultaneous effects will go onto the stack. So you first trigger the Surge, then the Behemoth's ability. Each player gets a chance to play additional fast effects, then you start working your way back down the stack.
Yes; active player chooses the order that simultaneous effects will go onto the stack. So you first trigger the Surge, then the Behemoth's ability. Each player gets a chance to play additional fast effects, then you start working your way back down the stack.
If you're worried about getting blown out by Slagstorm/Whipflare you can always sideboard a few copies of Divine Deflection or whatever that new white X prevent+redirect spell is.
Friend code for Pokemon fiends everywhere: Arch 0447-6824-1112
In the end, it's probably still worse than Goblin Guide -- and that nuisance was everywhere.
GG had to contend with Wall of Omens though, while devil smashes through Spellskite, Angelic Wall and the like. A 4/3 body is just massive in the first few turns. In any format.
A 4/3 in the first few turns is better than 4 to the dome... which is why it will almost never happen. Likewise, 4 to the dome in the end game will win lots of games that a 4/3 wouldn't- and neither will Vexing Devil.
I think the best way to evaluate this card is to pretend it has all of it's drawbacks at once. Something like:
Vexing Scamp (R)
If Vexing Scamp would deal combat damage to an opponent, sacrifice it instead. If you do, Vexing Scamp deals 4 damage to that opponent.
Vexing Scamp can't block unless an opponent has 8 or less life.
4/3
(Full disclosure, I stole this idea from the mtgsalvation thread.)
I would argue that this card would be essentially identical in effect in the vast majority of cases.
Posts
Not quite. You have to do so after blockers have been declared (and ordered, if necessary) but before the damage is actually dealt.
Regeneration is best thought of as a kind of shield (not unlike Protection from X); you have to put it up before you actually get hit or it doesn't work that well.
It's like a shield rather than a "bring back to life" mechanism.
Edit: Blah I didn't see the new page, beaten by Vyolynce >_>
A list of things, should you be of the gifting persuasion
Mana Leak can shut down a player for the first few rounds until they can keep enough land free, and the threat of it is like a mini Trinisphere if you aren't running a cheap deck. Combine it with something like Snapcaster and it creates a situation where "Why bother playing" is a legitimate question. I think counterspells are important but the sheer power they have at any point in the game can be incredibly difficult to balance.
twitch.tv/Taramoor
@TaramoorPlays
Taramoor on Youtube
That's kind of what I was afraid of. I was hoping Tyrant flicker could be the deck to last me post-rotation, as I've already got a really awesome B-Pod deck. I guess I'll have to look elsewhere.
Yeah that's my bad, I meant that you can put regenerate on the stack "after" (but really before) damage is dealt. I should probably not write rules posts at 3AM.
The only time it's not is if you're casting a 1 CMC spell on turn 4 or similar scenarios (and you don't plan on using the extra mana for another spell), in which case, you're already way behind the curve.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
I'm not sure on the order of operations, honestly. If you have priority to respond to the ETB trigger before your opponent does, then you can drop an Undying Evil on him for one black mana and give him Undying until EOT. At which point your opponent's options are to eat 8 damage or to let him on the field where he will proceed to beat face.
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@TaramoorPlays
Taramoor on Youtube
Yes (Undying Evil), but that probably colors their decision, no?
People can't seem to agree if you can respond to the ETB trigger.
twitch.tv/Taramoor
@TaramoorPlays
Taramoor on Youtube
However the triggered effect involves a player choice, and choices like Vexing Devil are made when the trigger resolves.
So here's the order of play:
Vexing Devil enters the battlefield. ETB trigger goes on the stack saying "Any opponent may choose to have Vexing Devil deal 4 damage to him or her..."
Gandalf casts Undying Evil, which goes on the stack.
Resolve stack in reverse order. Undying Evil resolves. Devil now has Undying. Then ETB trigger resolves. Opponent will see that Devil has Undying and choose whether to take the 4 damage or sacrifice the Devil based on that information.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
It's my own fault for just searching for the answer (yay Bing Rewards, though, another 500 Xbox points).
Fair enough, I saw three or so different people arguing that since it's a triggered ability that priority goes to the opponent first to respond, but it makes more sense that the ETB ability goes on and then Undying Evil gets cast before the decision is made.
It's a nice, tough position to put them in though. They can take eight damage now or they can deal with a 4/3. I can't imagine any player taking the four damage and then not taking four more when it comes back with a +1.
twitch.tv/Taramoor
@TaramoorPlays
Taramoor on Youtube
There are a lot of different ways to make people HATE Vexing Devil.
The more I think about it it really is just plain gross. It's RDW condensed to a single card.
twitch.tv/Taramoor
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Taramoor on Youtube
Turn 2: Mountain, Devil.
Then second Devil.
A list of things, should you be of the gifting persuasion
Yes, this is actually what I was thinking.
RDW + Phyrexian-G is gonna be horrifying.
GG had to contend with Wall of Omens though, while devil smashes through Spellskite, Angelic Wall and the like. A 4/3 body is just massive in the first few turns. In any format.
Note: I'm not equating the two cards directly. Just saying it's interesting the evolution of the game, what was considered too powerful to have on the table too early, versus what we get now.
Edit: granted, it doesn't have as much use against creatures as Lightning Bolt, but even viewing it as "Sorcery: R deal 4 damage to your opponent" isn't too shabby.
Now, much like Browbeat and other such cards, they'll just pick the least bad option (why eat the 4 if they can just murder it with removal? Why murder it if they're sitting on some beefy lifelinkers that are about to come online, etc), but if you nail a pair of these early, that's a hell of a lead in the race, potentially.
Of course, I'll probably never own one, let alone four of them, let alone play in a standard tournament, so as usual, feel free to take this idle speculation for pure hatespeech if need be.
Let's not forget that Mental Misstep is in Standard for a while yet.
Obviously, just like GG, the devil only fits in specific archetypes. Legacy burn and Modern R/B come to mind where t1 Lava Spike or Bump into the Night isn't uncommon. It certainly beats Spark Elemental which was actually played in Legacy and Extended.
Holy shit this is amazing. And it's the best Zelda game ever. Yesss
Deranged Hermit does dirty, dirty things during combat steps though as well as turning your Avacyn's Pilgrims into, well, Soylent Green.
Creatures
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Avacyn’s Pilgrim
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
1 Mikaeus, the Lunarch
2 Deranged Outcast
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Mayor of Avabruck
2 Mentor of the Meek
2 Daybreak Ranger
2 Champion of Lambholt
3 Mirran Crusader
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Sigarda, Host of Herons
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Descendants' Path
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Sunpetal Grove
2 Gavony Township
2 Rootbound Crag
7 Forest
5 Plains
Sideboard:
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Beast Within
3 Timely Reinforcements
2 Witchbane Orb
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Eaten by Spiders
2 Corrosive Gale
If 2 "enter the battlefield" effects are triggering off of the same creature, can I choose which order to execute them in? Here's the example that raised the question.
I have Warstorm Surge in play. (Whenever a creature enters the battlefield under your control, it deals damage equal to its power to target creature or player.)
I have a few creatures in play, and I summon in a Craterhoof Behemoth. (When Craterhoof Behemoth enters the battlefield, creatures you control gain trample and get +X/+X until end of turn, where X is the number of creatures you control.)
Can I add the +X/+X to the Behemoth before I trigger Warstorm Surge with it?
In other Avacyn Restored news, guys, I have lived the dream.
A 4/3 in the first few turns is better than 4 to the dome... which is why it will almost never happen. Likewise, 4 to the dome in the end game will win lots of games that a 4/3 wouldn't- and neither will Vexing Devil.
I think the best way to evaluate this card is to pretend it has all of it's drawbacks at once. Something like:
Vexing Scamp (R)
If Vexing Scamp would deal combat damage to an opponent, sacrifice it instead. If you do, Vexing Scamp deals 4 damage to that opponent.
Vexing Scamp can't block unless an opponent has 8 or less life.
4/3
(Full disclosure, I stole this idea from the mtgsalvation thread.)
I would argue that this card would be essentially identical in effect in the vast majority of cases.
Would you play that card?