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New batman Thread *Big Spoiler

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    gtrmpgtrmp Registered User regular
    gtrmp wrote:
    You forget that Identity Crisis is garbage

    Yeah, and it set the tone for every major event from DC since then.

    How would you say it set the tone for Final Crisis?

    Final Crisis was more of a reaction to the trend of pseudo-realistic violence than a continuation of it, but I don't think the premise of FC ("the underlying narrative of the universe has changed so that the bad guys really can win now") would have gone along quite the same lines, and wouldn't have been able to do so quite as plausibly, if it hadn't been preceded by 5+ years of grimdark nihilistic ultraviolence.

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    ToxTox I kill threads he/himRegistered User regular
    Look, let's not lose sight of what's important.
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    Dat

    ASS

    Twitter! | Dilige, et quod vis fac
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    Garlic BreadGarlic Bread i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a Registered User, Disagreeable regular
    Tox pose in a similar fashion for me

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    DichotomyDichotomy Registered User regular
    high heels are just the stupidest things

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    Garlic BreadGarlic Bread i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a Registered User, Disagreeable regular
    On superheroes, yes

    on fashion models, no

    on drag queens, hell no

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    KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    Keith wrote:
    On superheroes, yes

    on fashion models, no

    on drag queens, hell no

    KinkyBootsMoviePoster.jpg

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    OlivawOlivaw good name, isn't it? the foot of mt fujiRegistered User regular
    The Marvel Universe in which Thor and Asgard and Hercules exist is not entirely fantastical

    Right

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    PSN ID : DetectiveOlivaw | TWITTER | STEAM ID | NEVER FORGET
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    gtrmpgtrmp Registered User regular
    Keith wrote:
    On superheroes, yes

    on fashion models, no

    on drag queens, hell no

    To Julie Newmar, Thanks For Everything, Anne Hathaway

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    SolarSolar Registered User regular
    edited January 2012
    Olivaw wrote:
    The Marvel Universe in which Thor and Asgard and Hercules exist is not entirely fantastical

    Right

    No of course it is, but the existence of those characters is dealt with in a way that at least tries to be somewhat realistic. You get things like the SHRA out of the idea that superheroes should be registered because they are dangerous etc, which is born of trying to think about what the actual reaction to superheroes would be.

    Now superheroes are inherently fantastical, and their use is not entirely realistic even if you accept their premise, so it's pseudo-realistic, but it does try and make some connect there. Spider-Man, the Hulk, the X-Men and the Fantastic Four were all books that tried to take the idea of a superhero and say "okay so what if the people who had these powers acted like real people." Not entirely, they act like heroic real people, but not the extent that the paragons of DC. The split was much more pronounced in the Silver Age, but it still exists now.

    Solar on
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    DouglasDangerDouglasDanger PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    is anyone else interested in Gotham City Imposters?

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    Garlic BreadGarlic Bread i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a Registered User, Disagreeable regular
    I want to try out the beta but they haven't e-mailed me a code for it

    I'm on 360

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    SnorkSnork word Jamaica Plain, MARegistered User regular
    what the fuck is up with those glasses

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    i hit the max level (25) in the 360 beta of GCI. it's pretty fun but i'm glad they had the beta, some class builds are absolutely broken they are so good.

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    gtrmpgtrmp Registered User regular
    Solar wrote:
    Now superheroes are inherently fantastical, and their use is not entirely realistic even if you accept their premise, so it's pseudo-realistic, but it does try and make some connect there. Spider-Man, the Hulk, the X-Men and the Fantastic Four were all books that tried to take the idea of a superhero and say "okay so what if the people who had these powers acted like real people." Not entirely, they act like heroic real people, but not the extent that the paragons of DC. The split was much more pronounced in the Silver Age, but it still exists now.

    That split really isn't there any more, though, unless you're comparing apples to oranges and contrasting a more down-to-earth Marvel book like Ultimate Spider-Man with a more over-the-top DC book like All-Star Goddamn Batman. I mean, looking at the New 52 for example, the only books that don't give the characters space to act like actual people are the ones with big messy ensemble casts and the ones that are just badly written, and neither of those two traits is anything close to being DC-specific.

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    SolarSolar Registered User regular
    gtrmp wrote:
    Solar wrote:
    Now superheroes are inherently fantastical, and their use is not entirely realistic even if you accept their premise, so it's pseudo-realistic, but it does try and make some connect there. Spider-Man, the Hulk, the X-Men and the Fantastic Four were all books that tried to take the idea of a superhero and say "okay so what if the people who had these powers acted like real people." Not entirely, they act like heroic real people, but not the extent that the paragons of DC. The split was much more pronounced in the Silver Age, but it still exists now.

    That split really isn't there any more, though, unless you're comparing apples to oranges and contrasting a more down-to-earth Marvel book like Ultimate Spider-Man with a more over-the-top DC book like All-Star Goddamn Batman. I mean, looking at the New 52 for example, the only books that don't give the characters space to act like actual people are the ones with big messy ensemble casts and the ones that are just badly written, and neither of those two traits is anything close to being DC-specific.

    I think it's still present in that the characters which are the most popular are also the oldest ones which hark from a time when the split was very clear, and it shows in both companies biggest characters. Superman couldn't exist in the Marvel Universe, because his perfection is practically universal and therefore impossible (which is the whole point of the Sentry). Nobody can really be Superman, we can just strive to be like him. In the DC Universe that's okay because in that Universe people can be practically perfect, and that's great, but in the Marvel Universe people can't because the core idea of the Marvel Universe is that it's superheroes are people, not paragons. Which is also great! Neither is better or worse, but they are different at their heart, which is seen in their characters.

    Like I said, I agree that the split has reduced over time, as DC characters have become less perfect. Some DC characters are very much in the Marvel style, like Booster Gold and Kyle Raynor. But the big classic ones haven't changed that much from back in the day, and so they keep that part of the DC universe running.

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    MeldingMelding Registered User regular
    Sars_Boy wrote:
    We talked about those Catwoman statues yet?

    tdkrstatue1-1327520464.jpg

    how bout that? sure looks inspired by the Cooke design like they said it would be.

    mm hmm.

    Everything about this is bad.

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    DichotomyDichotomy Registered User regular
    Solar wrote:
    Nobody can really be Superman

    I can, but I don't feel like it

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    Zen VulgarityZen Vulgarity What a lovely day for tea Secret British ThreadRegistered User regular
    Dat ass

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    gtrmpgtrmp Registered User regular
    Solar wrote:
    I think it's still present in that the characters which are the most popular are also the oldest ones which hark from a time when the split was very clear, and it shows in both companies biggest characters. Superman couldn't exist in the Marvel Universe, because his perfection is practically universal and therefore impossible (which is the whole point of the Sentry). Nobody can really be Superman, we can just strive to be like him. In the DC Universe that's okay because in that Universe people can be practically perfect, and that's great, but in the Marvel Universe people can't because the core idea of the Marvel Universe is that it's superheroes are people, not paragons. Which is also great! Neither is better or worse, but they are different at their heart, which is seen in their characters.

    Eh... How familiar are you with Captain America? Because everything you said about Superman here applies equally Cap.

    Also, the Sentry isn't really an effective answer to the premise "what if Superman was imperfect?" because the nature of the Sentry/Void gimmick completely changes the core concept of the character. If anything the premise behind the Sentry is closer to "what if Superman was the Hulk?"

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    KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    I liked the take on Superman in Powers - I think the character was called "Super Shock"?

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    edited January 2012
    i miss the nineties, where there were 18 different supermans and it started to look like a dr.suess book
    1 supes 2 supes red supes blue supes

    Local H Jay on
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    CorporateLogoCorporateLogo The toilet knows how I feelRegistered User regular
    It was just the 4 supermen at the time

    Then Clark came back and made it 5

    Then it was back to 1

    Then I don't know what happened with the electric supermen but there were 2, red and blue

    Do not have a cow, mortal.

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    DichotomyDichotomy Registered User regular
    I can't help but admire the electric supermen thing

    like

    it's just such a completely insane idea on the face of it

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    "how do we update superboy so he's cool again?"
    "uh uh... GIVE HIM A LEATHER JACKET"

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    CorporateLogoCorporateLogo The toilet knows how I feelRegistered User regular
    edited January 2012
    There wasn't a superboy around at the time though

    CorporateLogo on
    Do not have a cow, mortal.

    c9PXgFo.jpg
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    CorporateLogoCorporateLogo The toilet knows how I feelRegistered User regular
    edited January 2012
    The original Superman-Red/Superman-Blue tale is an "Imaginary Story" that appears in Superman (vol. 1), #162 (July 1963). The script was written by Leo Dorfman, with art by Curt Swan. In the story, Superman has decided he wants to finish his list of unaccomplished goals, including the enlargement of the Bottle City of Kandor. In order to accomplish these goals, Superman invents a machine, powered by various types of Kryptonite, that will increase his intelligence. The machine works, increasing Superman's intelligence a hundredfold, but with the unexpected side effect of splitting Superman into two beings, Superman-Red and Superman-Blue.

    The twin Supermen successfully enlarged Kandor, freeing its citizens from their bottle prison. They then bring the remnants of Krypton together, creating a "New Krypton" (and eliminating all existing Kryptonite in the process). The two Supermen go on to create an "anti-evil" ray, which can cure criminal tendencies in anyone. They place the ray into satellites in orbit around the Earth, curing not only villains such as Lex Luthor and Mr. Mxyzptlk, but Communists such as Fidel Castro. The reformed Luthor goes on to invent a serum that cures all known diseases, which he puts into the water supply.

    With nearly all of the world's problems solved, the two Supermen have time to deal with personal matters. The split allows them to resolve the love triangle between Superman, Lois Lane, and Lana Lang. Each woman claims her own Superman, and they have a triple wedding: Superman-Blue marries Lana, Superman-Red marries Lois, and Lucy Lane marries Jimmy Olsen. Red decides to live on New Krypton, sacrificing his powers, while Blue remains on Earth, starting a Super-family.

    Man the Silver Age was a wacky time for comics

    CorporateLogo on
    Do not have a cow, mortal.

    c9PXgFo.jpg
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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    haha the bit with fidel castro is the best
    like the ray hits him and he starts frolicking and dancing in a field of flowers

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    DichotomyDichotomy Registered User regular
    zapping people with brainwashing lasers from orbit? now that those supermen were fascists

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    CorporateLogoCorporateLogo The toilet knows how I feelRegistered User regular
    But Lex made that panacea serum and put it into the water supply as a result of the two supermen

    Of course, they didn't say WHICH water supply, but it was a water supply all the same

    Do not have a cow, mortal.

    c9PXgFo.jpg
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    SolarSolar Registered User regular
    gtrmp wrote:
    Solar wrote:
    I think it's still present in that the characters which are the most popular are also the oldest ones which hark from a time when the split was very clear, and it shows in both companies biggest characters. Superman couldn't exist in the Marvel Universe, because his perfection is practically universal and therefore impossible (which is the whole point of the Sentry). Nobody can really be Superman, we can just strive to be like him. In the DC Universe that's okay because in that Universe people can be practically perfect, and that's great, but in the Marvel Universe people can't because the core idea of the Marvel Universe is that it's superheroes are people, not paragons. Which is also great! Neither is better or worse, but they are different at their heart, which is seen in their characters.

    Eh... How familiar are you with Captain America? Because everything you said about Superman here applies equally Cap.

    Also, the Sentry isn't really an effective answer to the premise "what if Superman was imperfect?" because the nature of the Sentry/Void gimmick completely changes the core concept of the character. If anything the premise behind the Sentry is closer to "what if Superman was the Hulk?"

    The Sentry was explicitly a Marvelised Superman and Paul Jenkins said so on a few occasions in interviews and the like. Now how well that was done is personal taste but the point of the character was that to say how in the Marvel Universe Superman wouldn't, even couldn't be who he was in the DC Universe, because that level of moral perfection just doesn't exist there.

    Cap is about as close as you get, and he's an interesting case because he's from before the Marvel age of characters in the 60's when the thematic split between the big two came into being, and so he is very similar to a lot of DC characters because he has that Golden Age "perfect hero" vibe that he shares with Superman and Batman and so on. Although the whole thing with Nomad around Watergate is very Marvel, I think. DC characters don't tend to lose their sense of identity to such a huge extent as Cap did then. But I do think Captain America is the exception just as DC has exceptions like Booster Gold and Kyle Raynor, like I said.

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    ZonugalZonugal (He/Him) The Holiday Armadillo I'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered User regular
    I don't think I'd put Captain America so close to the paragons of DC. He is still a paragon of virtue and morality bit he's got flaws and such.

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    ZonugalZonugal (He/Him) The Holiday Armadillo I'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered User regular
    But Solar, I understand and agree with what you have been saying.

    Expect that we still can't see realistic aspects in a character's actions. A setting universe may dilute or nullify, but it doesn't excuse.

    Ross-Geller-Prime-Sig-A.jpg
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    BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    I think DC's characters are a little more set in stone than Marvel's. The biggest change that has been done to any of the major Justice League players is the whole Batman Inc. deal, which has been some of the best Batman comics in the past decade.

    Marvel plays a little more fast and loose with characters. They keep the same basic core values(Spider-Man will always be the quippy nerd, Captain America will always be a moral paragon, etc.) but aren't afraid to shake things up. Spider-Man, the perpetual broke loner, is now a wealthy scientist and a member of both the Avengers and the Fantastic Four. Captain America gave up the mantle and because NotNick Fury for a while. Asgard is now a part of Earth and Odin has left, leaving Thor no longer a prince nor noble in the new Republic of Asgardia.

    I don't think either approach is inherently bad or good, but DC is often faced with the problem of their heroes and stories becoming stagnant and boring. The New 52 helped with this in some ways(Action Comics, Swamp Thing and Animal Man in particular) but it didn't go nearly far enough.

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    The GeekThe Geek Oh-Two Crew, Omeganaut Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Heisenberg wrote:
    hey guys

    the-dark-knight-rises-bane.jpg

    Is that Leo Laporte?

    BLM - ACAB
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    UrielUriel Registered User regular
    He's calling for help alright.

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    OlivawOlivaw good name, isn't it? the foot of mt fujiRegistered User regular
    Blankzilla wrote:
    I think DC's characters are a little more set in stone than Marvel's. The biggest change that has been done to any of the major Justice League players is the whole Batman Inc. deal, which has been some of the best Batman comics in the past decade.

    Marvel plays a little more fast and loose with characters. They keep the same basic core values(Spider-Man will always be the quippy nerd, Captain America will always be a moral paragon, etc.) but aren't afraid to shake things up. Spider-Man, the perpetual broke loner, is now a wealthy scientist and a member of both the Avengers and the Fantastic Four. Captain America gave up the mantle and because NotNick Fury for a while. Asgard is now a part of Earth and Odin has left, leaving Thor no longer a prince nor noble in the new Republic of Asgardia.

    I don't think either approach is inherently bad or good, but DC is often faced with the problem of their heroes and stories becoming stagnant and boring. The New 52 helped with this in some ways(Action Comics, Swamp Thing and Animal Man in particular) but it didn't go nearly far enough.

    The New 52 feels more desperate to me. It feels like a corporate mandate, like sales were in a slump and they were all "FUCK IT MAKE EVERYTHING #1 AGAIN"

    Whereas Marvel's stuff feels more like it's changing as a result of the authors, and not as a result of a whole bunch of suits getting together and going "we need to change shit to boost sales"

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    PSN ID : DetectiveOlivaw | TWITTER | STEAM ID | NEVER FORGET
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    OlivawOlivaw good name, isn't it? the foot of mt fujiRegistered User regular
    Uriel wrote:
    He's calling for help alright.

    :^:

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    PSN ID : DetectiveOlivaw | TWITTER | STEAM ID | NEVER FORGET
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    ZonugalZonugal (He/Him) The Holiday Armadillo I'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered User regular
    Re-watching some scenes from the Dark Knight I still think this my quintessential Batman scene.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xE7CpyraqA

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    AntimatterAntimatter Devo Was Right Gates of SteelRegistered User regular
    there were some great titles that came from the reboot though, which i'm grateful for

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    ArangArang HUEY LEWISRegistered User regular
    having no prior relationship with any of the characters, I really like bane's look and concept (he's sort of anti-batman, right?)

    catwoman seems kind of forced in, though

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