The new forums will be named Coin Return (based on the most recent
vote)! You can check on the status and timeline of the transition to the new forums
here.
We now return to our regularly scheduled PA Forums. Please let me (Hahnsoo1) know if something isn't working. The Holiday Forum will remain up until January 10, 2025.
Posts
I think I know what parts of a Zelda game cannot change for it to remain a Zelda game: safety and discoverability.
Safety is important for a game that encourages you to screw around. Link is extremely 'safe' in the game, except for the whole dying and respawning part. You will lose a life sometimes, but you will never lose an item you can't beat the game without. You will never (Youtube-documented game bugs notwithstanding) trigger a change in the world state such that you can never win the game. You will never discover that you can't enter dungeon 6 and must start the game completely over because you forgot to retrieve the mail from your mailbox at the beginning of the game (before your village was destroyed to make way for an interstellar space bypass.)
I believe physics-based puzzles can be very interesting and rewarding, but are difficult to do safely. Many times when people are playing with physics they are interested in kinematics, so you have things suspended from a height (or balanced and ready to fall) and you're dropping them to get a specific result. If you screw up, you've spent the kinetic energy and you must start over.
Discoverability is also important. A discoverable puzzle is designed by people who understand how humans think and learn. Humans work best when there's feedback showing them the general direction of a correct solution.
To illustrate the concept: A classic undiscoverable problem is a box with a combination lock. You don't know if there's anything in the box you want. You don't even know if the lock can be unlocked. Only the correct combination unlocks the box -- all other combinations result in no feedback at all. That's an extreme example, which obviously nobody would find fun.
If you look how the objects and actions are designed in a Zelda game, you can see discoverability everywhere. Puzzles which are half solved show meaningful clues about what work remains to be done. You see a door slam shut in your face, or you see something attempt to move but get stuck. Mysterious interactive objects entice you to play with them by showing SOME reaction when you active them incorrectly. Remember those bouncy stone-like things from Ocarina of Time? Remember how they behaved when you struck them with a sword for the first time? That behavior invited you to investigate further.
If you agree with me, I invite you to consider new themes or gameplay modes for a future Zelda game which still respect these principles of safety and discoverability. If you don't agree, I'll still respect you.
XBL Michael Spencer || Wii 6007 6812 1605 7315 || PSN MichaelSpencerJr || Steam Michael_Spencer || Ham NOØK
QRZ || My last known GPS coordinates: FindU or APRS.fi (Car antenna feed line busted -- no ham radio for me X__X )
Isn't that one of the more common complaints with Majora's Mask, though? I don't think the problem is the there are too many dungeons, just that the ones that we're given are (usually) rather straightforward and too damn short. Perhaps if the dungeons themselves were a bit more developed, or required that you traverse through more than one at once, there wouldn't need to be so many. Look at the Stone Tower temple for a good example of this; it was basically two dungeons in one.
This is new, to me at least. So people were upset over the fact that you couldn't accomplish everything in the span of a single 3-day cycle? Wow, that's a whole other level of completionist.
I mean, I'm pretty terrible myself, but I actually prefer MM to OoT because you can actually complete the game fully without fucking yourself over halfway through.
also I'd rather an only dungeon game than more overworld. I'm in it for the awesomely crafted dungeons.
Also, I think the only way to "play as Ganon" would work, would be a Zelda MMO. I hate MMOs, but that would fit it perfectly (one side is Ganon's army (subfactions: gerudo, moblins, Stalfos), the other side is not (subfactions: sheikah, "resistance", knights) )
make it so that once each year, one person is randomly chosen to be able to create a "Male Gerudo" slot, and another person is able to create "Chosen Hero" slot. They would then get an objective (ie, for Ganon, obtain triforce, for Link, obtain Master Sword). They have a certain time limit in which to obtain their objective.
The only hard part about this is the human element. Ideally, nobody would know who the Link was (as it always seems to be in Zelda games), but obviously everyone would know who was Ganondorf because they would be the only male Gerudo. Unfortunately as soon as either got the slot, they would tell everyone about it and/or try to eBay it away. And people would be trying to constantly gank either of these two players on purpose. I'm also not sure how the whole "race" would work out, would Ganondorf have to recruit people and try to storm Hyrule Castle and the Temple of Time? would Link have to beat every single dungeon by himself somehow? or would how fast they complete their objective determine the final battle between the two (ie, if Ganon gets the Triforce early, he levels up faster. If Link gets the Master Sword faster, he also levels up faster)
So I guess, just have those two played by Nintendo employees.
Unfortunately these games always sound better in your head and are never executed well, so forget this entire post.
Hell, imagine some of the possibilities, storyline-wise; a look into Gerudo life, where there's only one male every however many years, or perhaps interaction with characters that wil eventually have some connection with other figures from OoT (since the game would be set relatively close to OoT, which we should take as the starting point in the Zelda chronology).
And, gameplay wise...c'mon, we all know how amazing it'd be. Highly developed magic system that expands as you go on, intense melee fighting due to Ganon's strength and size, etc.
As for the ending? Well, if the game's, say, something like Gannondorf defending the Gerudo homeland from some invader or something, one who seeks the Triforce, the ending could be Ganon killing him, but no longer for his homeland...but because he sees a rival in attaining the Golden Power. He's been corrupted. Maybe the full ending is the birth of a young boy who's given the name Link, thus ending on a bit of a hopeful note.
Frankly, I almost feel more interested in a Zelda/Sheik game. The whole two character dynamic could be very well done, and the feeling of hopelessness as Ganon's domination becomes stronger would give a great atmosphere to the game. Plus, l33t ninja sheik skills.
Here's a thought, though: running with this idea of an expanded Zelda universe, with spinoff titles like this, which kind of games/characters do you think would require more dungeon-based gameplay, and which would require a more overworld-based style? Like, I think part of the fun of a Zelda/Sheik title would be the fact that she'd have to move about Hyrule Field without full-on detection by Ganon's forces (otherwise, the big green guy will encase her in that crystal again), which would cut back on the need for temples/dungeons. Other games, though, could require an INTENSE dungeon focus, which could be fun, as well.
And like I said, I feel like the beauty of it would be that you could take the Zelda mythos in any direction, without it having a direct impact on the "normal" games of the series. And more time spent playing around in Hyrule = more time well spent.
Wii Code: 5700 4466 3616 6981 (PM if y'all add me)
Unfortunately for you;
1) it was possible in Ocarina of time to lock yourself up under certain circumstances in the forest temple as an adult.
and
2) Your MMO idea basically sucks balls. Having 1 person in each faction get special powers, missions, quests, advantages, etc at random? please.
The role of Link and Ganondorf would be OBVIOUSLY allocated to an NPC in a Zelda MMO.
I think it would be especially powerful if Ganondorf was established as a sympathic character, and you were given a decent reason for him to be such an asshole. I love villains that are established as full characters, instead of having "MWAHAHAH I WILL RULE THE WORLD" as a motivation. Maybe show Ganondorf trying to control the realm and right all the wrongs he perceives with an iron fist, and being forced to make compromises to keep control, getting worse and worse and slowly turning into the giant pig beast that we know and love.
I'd buy two.
I'd buy it.
I usually don't care about online etiquette, but your reply was a bit ridiculous in its tone, unless you were being funny or something (in which case, try harder next time). How is it "OBVIOUS" that the slot would be allocated to an NPC? I don't like the idea either, but this is a thread in which people are spewing out crazy ideas for the fun of it (1920s Hyrule? OBVIOUSLY it would never work mirite). I mean, come on, guy. Common decency isn't hard.
And to contribute to the thread, I'd love to see a Zelda RTS game or something. Or maybe a game in which one person can be controlling the game via a RTS interface as Ganon, setting up armies to fight off a second player who could be controlling Link in a traditional manner. Maybe with DS-Wii connectivity or something. That'd be awesome.
He was kind of given motivation in Wind Waker as he talked about coming from a barren life-less desert and being envious of Hyrule. It's not much but I could imagine how he'd grow up frustrated with their lot.
I'm not really feeling a Ganon based game. It just doesn't seem right.
I was thinking some more about a physics based game and how you'd interact with it. If Link had a new item that would take the place of the Ocarina in a staff of some kind. This would be your equivalent of the Wiimote in the game and any action you perform is copied by Link. The staff then summons a hand from the sky that you use to interact with items. At first it is weak and can only pick up rocks and the like but as you progress it gets stronger and you can move boulders and big structures. You'd also learn new techniques like clenching it into a fist and smashing holes in caves and even using it on enemies eventually needing it maxed out on the final boss. The real new item wouldn't be the staff but the new physics engine in the game with the staff just being a convient natural way to interact with it. You could pick up a large rock by point the cursor at it, pressing A to grip it moving it all around with your arm and throwing it by pulling your arm back and letting go of A as you hurl it forwards. Or turn the wiimote around so the hand is upside down and throw the rock in the air and catch it on the way down. And when you learn the punch move and come across a blocked off cave perhaps, you would pull the Wiimote back and actually punch with it like Wii Sports Boxing, smashing a hole in the wall.
It would be an item of the God's called Din's Hand or something like that. It would mean that you could interact with all of the physics based puzzles in a naturalistic and no-frustrating way. It could also replace the need for a lot of old items as you learn a few new skills with it like using it in place of a hookshot. Of course the old Sword and Shield would still be Link's primary weapons, this would be used mostly as a tool. Hopefully giving you a great degree of freedom too.
I was about to say 'after you beat the game you unlock it' but then it's not like you can ever save beating the game lol
Tragic heros? It'll never catch on!
My personal thought went something like this:
Gannondorf, a young Gerudo prince, sets out to save the Gerudo from an attacking foreign power. His quest leads him on a search for the Triforce of Power, which Gannondorf believes will grant him the strength to turn back the invaders.
Gannondorf succeeds in his quest and gains the Triforce of Power, but too late. When he returns, the invaders have siezed the throne and murdered the Gerudo King. He has a final showdown with the invading emperor and reclaims the Gerudo throne.
The ending could then take on a tragic bend. Having saved the Gerudo, Gannondorf claims the throne previously occupied by his late father. He comes to the conclusion that his father was too weak and strengthens his grip on the Gerudo. His rule becomes harsh and imperialistic until finally he decides to pre-empt any future threats against his power.
Naturally, his sights are then set on the neighboring nation of Hyrule.
You see where this is going? Eh?
Minor details. I'm still trying to figure out where Gerudo babies come from...
IMO I'd like to see another celda. I don't know if I'm such a huge fan of having an actual sequel to a Zelda game, but I think they left WW open as a great opportunity to do so. Could you imagine fighting up various mountains to get to the dungeons or even towns at the top? This could accommodate for the overland/free roam style play and still have a good amount of dungeon content. I also think the WW baton would work great with the waggle action.
i believe it's mentioned by a gossip stone near the Temple of Time that the Gerudo women sometimes come by Hyrule Castle Town to pick up guys.
So they simply interbreed with Hylians.
Make a side adventure, a la Resident Evil, that unlocks after completing the main game. The PC would be a side character from the main game, but would self-narrate and just be generally talky.
Or, and this is a little more out there: put a mic on the wiimote, and while Link doesn't talk, you do. Maybe you're the voice of link, but I was thinking you would be the voice of a faerie. This does bring all the problems of voice recognition though.
According to one of those stones in OoT, I think they apparently regularly stop by Hyrule to find "boyfriends." Given that none of said boyfriends are in their headquarters, I assume the Gerudo work something between the Amazons and a horde of spring breakers.
I like to think that there is not such thing as a "bad idea" but... I don't know...
IMHO: I liked what this thread was about "how to keep Zelda from getting stale" but most ideas mentionned (most not all) were how to transform Zelda into an already existing game. We should make Zelda like God of War, Shadow of the Colossi, Resident Evil, an MMO (for the love of all that is holy!), a generic RPG, etc. I'm not saying that all these ideas are *bad* but they would only bring Zelda from being Zelda-stale to a different kind of stale.
The one idea that kind of sticks out is the spinoff. I like the idea because it could allow us to learn more about the environment/history of Hyrule. A Ganondof spinoff would show us how he comes to power, show us his real motivations, and tell us why he keeps trying with the same strategy (after failing, what, like 15 times now?). Even a Knights of Hyrule spinoff could show us how the golden power was originally sealed by the seven wise men (some sort of prequel to LTTP).
To whoever said OoT was the biggest innovation in Zelda, I disagree. Sure it was the first in 3d but that's where we were at on a technology level. The storyline, in my opinion, was just a rehash of LTTP and a lot of the same tools come back. They both follow the exact same formula (storyline wise):
Link dreams that something horrible has happened. He gets a generic sword and goes on a quest to get 3 items to unlock the Master Sword. At this point the world goes through a drastic change but it still has Hyrule's outline. You then have to free 7 maidens/sages to gain enough power to defeat Ganon. You go to where Hyrule's Castle was in the Light World and defeat ganon in his pig form with the light arrows.
(Sorry if this post was long but I've been keeping notes of what's been bugging me since I started reading the thread. These are all my opinions and I don't think I have THE RIGHT one so critique away
If only they'd ease up on the eyeshadow...
I'm so tempted to start OoT all over again. I loved the fights with the Gerudo prison guards. In fact, any enemy you had to block and strafe to beat... So much fun.
The next LoZ needs more of those encounters. Smart enemies that you can't just pummel to death and go on.
Twilight Princess?
Cheers, DragonKhan
Wii: 2430 4969 0764 8525
Did it have more of those situations? I am sadly without a 'cube. (Much less a Wii.)
I'm beginning to pine for new Zelda. If I could find a Gamecube for supercheap, I may have to go find Wind Waker. Also, Twilight Princess, when it is $20. (I'm incredibly cheap... It's the only way I can build a decent collection of games.)
It does very much!
Cheers, DragonKhan
Wii: 2430 4969 0764 8525
I really feel the need to point out what a good post this is. You really understand fundamentals of game design, and approach the idea of a new Zelda from the right perspective.
To me, the story of a Zelda game is irrelevant, as are the characters. The point of Zelda is not to tell a story (like Final Fantasy) but rather to experience an imaginary world in a tactile, immersive way. Playing as Ganon or making a "darker" plot would add nothing to this experience, which has indeed grown stale since the 3-D revolution that Ocarina of Time brought on. And OoT was a revolution not because of its story or its setting, or even its puzzles—but rather because of the radical new way it controlled.
Here is where I think Zelda should go, and I am so confident that this is where it will go that you can sig me on it:
Gesture based controls for everything.
Swordfighting with the Wiimote, much like Wii Sports Tennis or Baseball is controlled. As close to 1-on-1 control as possible. You will have to stand up and get a workout during swordfights.
Items also will be controlled with gestures. To throw the boomerang, you don't just point and click, you whip around the wiimote (imagine an overhand Wii Sports Bowling). In archery, you draw back the Wiimote to pull the string taught, THEN release. Magic wands? Wave the wiimote around.
Also: ditch the camera controls. Completely. Don't even make it free-roaming like Mario 64 and almost every 3-D game to date. Make it control like Resident Evil 4. If you think about it, RE4 is EASIER to control, for a beginner, than games like Wind Waker and Mario 64, where you are forced to deal with a camera in addition to your motion. The next Zelda game should simplify Link's movement and move the focus towards gestures.
Now, some of you are going to cry "I don't know how to swordfight!" or "I don't want to stand up and get a workout every five minutes battling through hordes of easy enemies!"
To answer the first objection: I don't know how to play Guitar, but I quickly became awesome at Guitar Hero. I don't know how to play Baseball or Tennis but I'm awesome at Wii Sports. I imagine gesture-based swordfighting will work the same.
As to the second objection: it WILL be harder to dispatch your enemies. Swordfights will be harder not only because the wider range of moves available, but also because it will be physically tiring. Archery and ranged attacks will be harder too. But that's a GOOD thing. Battles SHOULD be more intense in videogames. (I think Miyamoto even said archery should be harder in TP, like in real life.) You should not be able to mindlessly mow your way through a dungeon crawling with enemies. What will need to happen is a reduction in the number of trivial encounters. Make every battle worthwhile and intense, but spread them out and pace them so that gamers do not wear themselves out.
As to where the next Zelda should take place or who should star in it, I don't give a shit. Ocarina of Time had one of the stupidest stories and some of the blandest, most generic settings in the history of storytelling and it is still the greatest game ever—because it revolutionized the way we play games. I expect Miyamoto's next Zelda game will do the same thing, and if it doesn't, I'm going to be very disappointed.
Which makes me wonder exactly why all those workers were imprisoned...
Ohhh I remember the magnetic gloves used in one of the LoZ for GBA. Those could have great use with the Wii controls too!
At first I missed the "timing to press A special attack" from Wind Waker but happy to see that, Nintendo being Nintendo, they incorporated a more sophisticated version later in the game.
Hello Sebbie and welcome. You're quite right about the similarities and I never quite realised how close they are until you just described it even though it's obvious. I have really warmed up to the Ganon game, mostly because I think it will help create more of a hunger for a new Zelda game. Especially if the Ganon spinoff somehow is linked to the next Zelda storyline.
In simple story terms I keep thinking that a more modern Hyrule would be quite cool. A steam powered industrial revolutionised Hyrule, where you could even write it into the plot as the Hyruians have forgotten about their heritage and no longer believe in the Goddesses or magic. This would of course be a long time plan by Ganon or some other mystical enemy to make the Hyrulians depend less on magics so when he attacks they will be defenceless. It would make Link running around in a green tunic with a sword and shield even weirder.
There have been a few suggestions of the like here. I suggested earlier that you could use the Wiimote to control a hand of one of the Goddesses left behind to interact with the world. It would start off small with a time limit each time you use it and as the game progresses it gets stronger and you can use it longer and learn new abilities like turning it into a fist to smash i a blocked cave entrance or using it in a hookshot capacity. Also a javalin was suggested a few pages back too.
Obviously a much more gesture based control would be needed, and I think Wii SPorts baseball is the best comparison. Like that but with variety in the strikes.
However, I think you'd agree that 3-D Zeldas have pretty much exhausted the possibilities as far as puzzles go. There was some new stuff in Twilight Princess, and some puzzles were pretty tricky (dungeon 7's doozy before the endgame for example). However, the nature of the puzzles has remained exactly the same since Ocarina of Time. Push a block into place. Or, look around the environment for a switch to trigger. Or, clear a pathway in the environment.
Now, compare Ocarina of Time's puzzles to Link to the Past's. Many of the puzzles appeared very similar (dropping blocks down floors, pushing blocks into place) but the fact that the puzzles were now in 3-D added an entirely new dimension. The best parts of OoT were those that capitalized on the new gameplay dimension. Remember how cool that twisted hallway puzzle was in the Forest Temple? That felt like a classic Zelda puzzle, but at the same time it could NEVER have been done in a 2-D game. However, most, if not all, of TP's puzzles could have been done in Ocarina of Time.
So I think the next Zelda game needs to retain that "classic" feel to their puzzles—complete with the safety and encouraged experimentation that you described. But at the same time, it needs to add a new way to control Link to the mix, comparable to the 3-D revolution. Gesture-based gameplay would give us that new dimension.
What I had in mind was a complete overhaul of the entire way Zelda controls. Every single weapon and item would be controlled by detailed gestures, well beyond just pointing and clicking to shoot an arrow or throw the boomerang in TP. You would be physically active while playing the game, especially during fights.
There are definitely some good points in here, especially in reducing the number of pointless encounters and increasing the complexity of fighting. I do, however, think you may be over-estimating the wii-motes abilities. The idea of whipping your hand to throw a boomerang, for example, sounds fucking awesome, but I can't think of a way in which you could incorporate both throwing and aiming in the same motion. (Unless of course you used the nunchuck to throw and the wii-mote to aim...shit, maybe it could work...)
I think the key to a Zelda game for the Wii is to make the Wii-mote a natural extension of the player's hand(s), and not a button substitute. That is, don't have motion Y trigger a bomb throw and motion Z trigger jumping, rather, create an environment where the players movements make sense. If it's in your hands in the game, then you should be handling it with the wii-mote. Riding a horse? Wii-mote becomes your hands on the reigns. Paddling a canoe? Assume the canoe position and get moving. Programming is an entirely foreign subject to me, so what I'm asking for may simply be too difficult/costly to implement at this point, but there's always the Wii 2...
Shouldn't we all be banking on the DS effort as a change of pace? I mean, the touch controls should make things quite different. As for the "controlling an entity controlling Link" idea, I believe PH has a fairy which you direct, guiding Link around.