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In all the cantinas in all the world, why'd [Star Wars] have to walk into mine?

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    Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    jdarksun wrote:
    They could have really amped up making Anakin look and feel evil if they had made him fight like Starkiller. Constantly tossing around Lightning, throwing things (people, droids, whatever), more frequent uses of Choke, etc, etc. Show him gaining strength as he embraces the Dark Side.

    Put him against the Jedi. A one-man Order 66. No need to do that off-screen younglings (/shudder) thing to tell how he's eeevil. Show us, dammit!

    What's especially annoying is that throughout the EU Vader is said to have hunted down the Jedi singlehandedly. That was pretty much the movie I expected in Revenge, honestly - the fight on Mustafar happens about halfway through, Anakin becomes Vader, and the rest of the movie is about getting Luke and Leia to safety while the rest of the Jedi cover for them, Vader brutally ripping through the Order like it's nothing.

    Instead, we got an Oedipal trope which almost worked but was cluttered as hell with stupid plot points all over.

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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited January 2012
    Honestly the younglings thing seems like something that Palpatine should have done and blamed on the jedi being reckless or incompetent in some manner. As an initial act of moving to the dark side it's fucking ridiculous, it's like in action movies where just because someone is a criminal in any capacity they must also be willing to attempt murder on the protagonist when caught.

    As it stands we have a lot of DERPITY DOO and very little subtle manipulation. Fuck we go from Anakin exposing Palpatine to the jedi to Anakin murdering children for Palpatine in five minutes. What the flying fuck Lucas

    Edit: Also, there seems to be very little strategic sense in Palps ordering the deaths of the children, wouldn't it make more sense to take them under your wing and tell them the jedi were the bad guys all along? The best way to remove the force using children without being retarded would be them being evacuated and the shuttle being destroyed or something. Heck, imagine the kids being evacuated by Palpatine and the Jedi shooting down the shuttle thinking it was a troop transport (post order 66), just spitballing here.

    override367 on
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    Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    Ceno wrote:
    He's a whole new character played by a whole new actor in AOTC, so they may as well have started there. We gained nothing about his character from the first film that couldn't be summed up in two lines of dialogue.

    "He's so naturally attuned to the Force it's a bit frightening."

    "I sense a great deal of resentment in him about leaving his mother behind."

    Also, this. Phantom Menace was just a waste of time; if you really needed to show how Anakin came under Obi-Wan's tutelage, and how Obi-Wan was really not ready to take that on, you could have pretty much done all the important parts of Phantom Menace as the first act of AotC instead.

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    HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited January 2012
    The actual large scale plot of the Clone Wars can work just fine. It's the execution and details that need to be fixed. The tv show has done a good job of that on many fronts. Basically:

    1) Anakin needs to actually be heroic before falling.
    2) The reason for his fall should be his already established totalitarian tendencies. He doesn't believe in the Republic as a system, and is more than willing to support a dictatorship if it brings "order".
    3) Make it more explicit as to what the Orders failings are.

    That's pretty much all you need besides actually making a competent movie/whatever.

    HamHamJ on
    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
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    Pi-r8Pi-r8 Registered User regular

    As it stands we have a lot of DERPITY DOO and very little subtle manipulation. Fuck we go from Anakin exposing Palpatine to the jedi to Anakin murdering children for Palpatine in five minutes. What the flying fuck Lucas
    Yeah, I feel like those 5 minutes should have been stretched out to make the entire PT. "Anakin's Fall" should have not have happened in 5 minutes.

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    AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    HamHamJ wrote:
    2) The reason for his fall should be his already established totalitarian tendencies. He doesn't believe in the Republic as a system, and is more than willing to support a dictatorship if it brings "order".

    Which I agree is probably the best way to play that angle, but it requires a lot of finesse and legitimate establishing motivation to make the guy who supports the God-King killing everyone who doesn't agree with The Rules into a relatable character deserving of empathy.

    Because otherwise those characters generally turn out somewhere on the Rick Santorum/Fred Phelps scale. And everyone thinks those guys are assholes.

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    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    Yeah, the story of anakin's fall is really good and illustrative of the whole jedi dilemma; he has to choose between the jedi teaching/the greater good and the offer of safety for his wife/family. Emotion makes him easy for palpatine to manipulate, which is like the whole point of the jedi code in the first place. But lucas explores that with all the subtlety of a jackhammer.

    NREqxl5.jpg
    it was the smallest on the list but
    Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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    Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Yeah, the story of anakin's fall is really good and illustrative of the whole jedi dilemma; he has to choose between the jedi teaching/the greater good and the offer of safety for his wife/family. Emotion makes him easy for palpatine to manipulate, which is like the whole point of the jedi code in the first place. But lucas explores that with all the subtlety of a jackhammer.

    The Jedi way not being the greater good, in Anikin's mind anyway, could have succeeded had it been a grey area.

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    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    Yeah, the story of anakin's fall is really good and illustrative of the whole jedi dilemma; he has to choose between the jedi teaching/the greater good and the offer of safety for his wife/family. Emotion makes him easy for palpatine to manipulate, which is like the whole point of the jedi code in the first place. But lucas explores that with all the subtlety of a jackhammer.

    The Jedi way not being the greater good, in Anikin's mind anyway, could have succeeded had it been a grey area.

    he only doesn't think it's the greater good because he's become super-attached to amidala, though. This isn't a matter of relativism, he's just wrong.

    NREqxl5.jpg
    it was the smallest on the list but
    Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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    Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    he only doesn't think it's the greater good because he's become super-attached to amidala, though. This isn't a matter of relativism, he's just wrong.

    That's why it failed. The greater good conflicting with the Jedi needed to be more then dealing with his love life.

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    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    the greater good isn't in conflict with the jedi in the film! The jedi order (vis obi-wan/yoda) is right!

    NREqxl5.jpg
    it was the smallest on the list but
    Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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    Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    the greater good isn't in conflict with the jedi in the film! The jedi order (vis obi-wan/yoda) is right!

    I wasn't talking about the film. I was saying the greater good storyline could have been altered to be better had it been about Anikin rebelling against the Jedi's "greater good" methods in a different direction from what Lucas did.

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    nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    edited January 2012
    Which is a problem in its own right. The order is depicted as being old and decrepit. It's so weak in the force it can't sense their damn arch-enemy is living in the same building as them. The implication is that the Jedi have strayed from what they should be. Vader's return at the end of six due to his love for his son and Luke's ability to defeat both but not become the emotionless husks the old order was reinforces the idea in our heads that the Jedi were wrong.\

    This is then totally in conflict with the supposed reason for Anikin's fall.

    nightmarenny on
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    AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    Yeah, the story of anakin's fall is really good and illustrative of the whole jedi dilemma; he has to choose between the jedi teaching/the greater good and the offer of safety for his wife/family. Emotion makes him easy for palpatine to manipulate, which is like the whole point of the jedi code in the first place. But lucas explores that with all the subtlety of a jackhammer.

    That is indeed the conflict that the film decides is the leverage for Anakin's fall, but it just falls apart like a mealy turd.

    We don't really see that the Jedi are the greater good, but we do see that Palpatine is shady as fuck. Also, the only thing that Palpatine has to offer is a single issue (death-proofing?), which he offers with no promise.

    Palpatine's pitch, i.e. "Hey, I hear you're worried about your wife's safety, so I'll guarantee that safety if you'll just go a kill all your friends, starting with the defenseless children, m'kay? Oh, and I have nothing to offer you to prove my promise is genuine," has less legitimacy than the Nigerian Prince Scam.

    At least lotteries are real things, and Nigeria is a real place.

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    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    yes, the whole anakin acting like a complete idiot throughout the PT is also a problem

    NREqxl5.jpg
    it was the smallest on the list but
    Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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    zepherinzepherin Russian warship, go fuck yourself Registered User regular
    This is actually pretty awesome.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utGXF5orynk

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    Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    yes, the whole anakin acting like a complete idiot throughout the PT is also a problem

    He's better in the Star Wars cartoons.

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    AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    yes, the whole anakin acting like a complete idiot throughout the PT is also a problem

    Yes, the script does him no favors. Anakin's "fall" is little more than just a natural progression of his already maladjusted accountability issues and sociopathic narcissism.

    He leaves his mother for fortune and glory at age 10, gets pissed that other people don't fix those problems for him, and then spends the rest of the PT about how "everyone is holding [him] back."


    From what, Anakin? From what?

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    Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited January 2012
    yes, the whole anakin acting like a complete idiot throughout the PT is also a problem

    Yes, the script does him no favors. Anakin's "fall" is little more than just a natural progression of his already maladjusted accountability issues and sociopathic narcissism.

    He leaves his mother for fortune and glory at age 10, gets pissed that other people don't fix those problems for him, and then spends the rest of the PT about how "everyone is holding [him] back."


    From what, Anakin? From what?

    Anakin being irritated that his mother remaining a slave isn't wrong IMO. Of course a kid is going to psychologically messed up knowing his mother will remain a slave while he travels around the galaxy kicking heads in. The Jedi were in the wrong not to find a way to rescue his mother later on. They could have sent a strike team back to Tatooine to rescue her then put her on a Core world with some savings (they seemed to be wealthy or connected enough for this) to put him at ease. Or Anakin himself could do it on his own when he's old enough.

    You're right they weren't holding him back, though.

    Harry Dresden on
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    ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    I think it's kind of ridiculous to complain about the PT spoiling that Anakin is Vader. At this point the only people who don't already know that are the ones born after 2005, and do you really think you could get anyone to sit through 5 movies before they find out from somewhere else anyways?

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    nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    Scooter wrote:
    I think it's kind of ridiculous to complain about the PT spoiling that Anakin is Vader. At this point the only people who don't already know that are the ones born after 2005, and do you really think you could get anyone to sit through 5 movies before they find out from somewhere else anyways?
    You've pretty astoundingly missed the point there.

    Quire.jpg
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    AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    You're right they weren't holding him back, though.

    At least twice in the PT, in both AOTC and ROTS, Anakin laments how the Jedi are restricting him from something owed, but it never is embellished further than that.

    Considering that's literally THE ONLY THING MOTIVATING ANAKIN SKYWALKER, one would hope that the script would be slightly deeper than that.

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    nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    You're right they weren't holding him back, though.

    At least twice in the PT, in both AOTC and ROTS, Anakin laments how the Jedi are restricting him from something owed, but it never is embellished further than that.

    Considering that's literally THE ONLY THING MOTIVATING ANAKIN SKYWALKER, one would hope that the script would be slightly deeper than that.

    Well in AOTC it was pretty clearly being a Jedi Knight. Maybe he just switched right to thinking he deserved to be a Master after becoming a Knight?

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    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    yeah, and then he's mad that they don't make him a master after palpatine arranges for him to be on the council

    it's still not clear what he's actually being held back from, though. I guess he wants to put 'jedi master' on his business cards?

    NREqxl5.jpg
    it was the smallest on the list but
    Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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    nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    yeah, and then he's mad that they don't make him a master after palpatine arranges for him to be on the council

    it's still not clear what he's actually being held back from, though. I guess he wants to put 'jedi master' on his business cards?

    Yoda's super secret frog Lightsaber Style? Masters only dinning room?

    Quire.jpg
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    VeritasVRVeritasVR Registered User regular
    zepherin wrote:
    This is actually pretty awesome.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utGXF5orynk

    Oh my god. I would pay so much money for a full hour of this.

    CoH_infantry.jpg
    Let 'em eat fucking pineapples!
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    AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    yeah, and then he's mad that they don't make him a master after palpatine arranges for him to be on the council

    it's still not clear what he's actually being held back from, though. I guess he wants to put 'jedi master' on his business cards?

    See? That'd be a great conversation for Luke to have had with his ghost dad while they get to know each other.

    Ghost!Anakin: ". . . and I was kind of an asshole for a long time, mostly about not being addressed as 'Jedi master'-"
    Luke: "Oh, really? I just called myself that and went on. It's not like anyone you meet asks for your credentials or anything. It's a big galaxy, you know."
    Anakin: "You know, you're right. I totally could have just done that. Would have saved a lot of headache."
    Luke: "I'll say. Just think of all that strange you could have picked up with that made-up hokum."
    Anakin: " . . . I have so many regrets . . . ."

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    Pi-r8Pi-r8 Registered User regular
    yes, the whole anakin acting like a complete idiot throughout the PT is also a problem

    Yes, the script does him no favors. Anakin's "fall" is little more than just a natural progression of his already maladjusted accountability issues and sociopathic narcissism.

    He leaves his mother for fortune and glory at age 10, gets pissed that other people don't fix those problems for him, and then spends the rest of the PT about how "everyone is holding [him] back."


    From what, Anakin? From what?

    Anakin being irritated that his mother remaining a slave isn't wrong IMO. Of course a kid is going to psychologically messed up knowing his mother will remain a slave while he travels around the galaxy kicking heads in. The Jedi were in the wrong not to find a way to rescue his mother later on. They could have sent a strike team back to Tatooine to rescue her then put her on a Core world with some savings (they seemed to be wealthy or connected enough for this) to put him at ease. Or Anakin himself could do it on his own when he's old enough.

    You're right they weren't holding him back, though.

    I never understood why Obi-Wan didn't just whip out his light saber and force the bug-guy to free all his slaves. It's hard to believe that the Jedi Council would willingly allow slave-owning when they have the power to stop it.

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    Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited January 2012
    Pi-r8 wrote:
    I never understood why Obi-Wan didn't just whip out his light saber and force the bug-guy to free all his slaves. It's hard to believe that the Jedi Council would willingly allow slave-owning when they have the power to stop it.

    There may have been political or logistical reasons not to interfere on a huge scale for the Jedi. Rescuing one slave shouldn't matter despite those limitations.

    Harry Dresden on
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    AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    Pi-r8 wrote:
    I never understood why Obi-Wan didn't just whip out his light saber and force the bug-guy to free all his slaves. It's hard to believe that the Jedi Council would willingly allow slave-owning when they have the power to stop it.

    There may have been political or logistical reasons not to interfere on a huge scale for the Jedi. Rescuing one slave shouldn't matter despite those limitations.

    The math of morality on that doesn't really add up, though. Qui-Gon had no problem rigging the odds to favor Anakin's release, and apparently within a few years of that Shmi was set free anyway.

    Also, fuck Shmi right in the face for not sending a letter to Anakin when that happened.

    "Hey hon,

    Watto let me go. Pretty soon after you left, actually. Almost could have taken the same flight to Coruscant. Funny, huh? Anyway, gotta run. Getting married to a crippled divorcee. See you never.

    Fuck off you whiny cunt,
    Love, your mom."

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    Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    The math of morality on that doesn't really add up, though. Qui-Gon had no problem rigging the odds to favor Anakin's release, and apparently within a few years of that Shmi was set free anyway.

    The Jedi had no idea she would be set free later on IIRC. That only happened when Watto sold her to a new owner who married her.

    I'm clearly making up fictional excuses for why the Jedi never rescued Anakin's mother, of course. That said, I'm sure writers in the EU have figured out logical reasons why this happened.
    Also, fuck Shmi right in the face for not sending a letter to Anakin when that happened.

    "Hey hon,

    Watto let me go. Pretty soon after you left, actually. Almost could have taken the same flight to Coruscant. Funny, huh? Anyway, gotta run. Getting married to a crippled divorcee. See you never.

    Fuck off you whiny cunt,
    Love, your mom."

    True.

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    AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    The Jedi had no idea she would be set free later on IIRC. That only happened when Watto sold her to a new owner who married her.

    Again, the math on that just doesn't add up. The Jedi are seen intervening in all kinds of matters, political or otherwise, on Republic systems or not.

    Shit, it's not like they even had to bust in and liberate the poor woman. Just show up with some petty cash, lay it on Watto's barrelhead and say, "The frumpy older one," and get back home before dinner.

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    Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited January 2012
    Again, the math on that just doesn't add up. The Jedi are seen intervening in all kinds of matters, political or otherwise, on Republic systems or not.

    Shit, it's not like they even had to bust in and liberate the poor woman. Just show up with some petty cash, lay it on Watto's barrelhead and say, "The frumpy older one," and get back home before dinner.

    I agree.

    With Shmi being bought up the Skywalker's were the best living slaves in fiction I've seen. They had their own house, treated fairly by Watto, Anakin had the time & education to build his own droids. Hardly a bad life. I'd buy it as a form of indentured servitude, not slavery.

    Harry Dresden on
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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    If you wanted to still use the stupid "meet Anakin as a child" crap, you could even use that.

    Anakin's authoritarian tendencies are nursed by the Jedi, who tend to wander into new planets and just throw their weight around and do what they want. "I wanna be just like Qui-Gon, who was totally like 'Fuck you, I'm taking your slave. You wanna bitch about it? Here, argue with my lightsaber.'"

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    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited January 2012
    This the same jedi order that regularly takes kids away from their parents for training, though. The way he got ahold of anakin was probably more or less SOP.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    NREqxl5.jpg
    it was the smallest on the list but
    Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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    GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    This the same jedi order that regularly takes kids away from their parents for training, though. The way he got ahold of anakin was probably more or less SOP.

    Shmi would have actually deported anakin as an infant if that had been the case.

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    HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited January 2012
    HamHamJ wrote:
    2) The reason for his fall should be his already established totalitarian tendencies. He doesn't believe in the Republic as a system, and is more than willing to support a dictatorship if it brings "order".

    Which I agree is probably the best way to play that angle, but it requires a lot of finesse and legitimate establishing motivation to make the guy who supports the God-King killing everyone who doesn't agree with The Rules into a relatable character deserving of empathy.

    Because otherwise those characters generally turn out somewhere on the Rick Santorum/Fred Phelps scale. And everyone thinks those guys are assholes.

    Not really. Just show how the corruption and political paralysis of the Republic Senate is allowing the CIS to rampage throughout the galaxy. Act 2 of the middle movie they get sent to some planet to stop the CIS and interference from a corrupt Senator ends up getting a village slaughtered by the CIS. Takes less than an hour and you will easily convince most of the audience that Anakin is justified in supporting Palpatine's grab for power so he can end the war without needing the Senate's approval. Obviously he doesn't find out about the whole Sith Lord thing until after, because otherwise that would just be dumb.

    EDIT:

    Fuck, I just had a great idea: Anakin gets arrested for heroically disobeying orders and Palpatine convinces him to help him use the trial as a front for a coup.

    HamHamJ on
    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
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    KingofMadCowsKingofMadCows Registered User regular
    It's funny how no one ever suspected Kamino of orchestrating the whole conflict. They would have benefited from the assassination of Padme since she opposed the military creation act. They benefited from the tensions with the Separatists since they just happened to have an army of clones the Republic could buy to counter the Separatist's droid army. They benefited from the war since they were the Republic's biggest arms supplier.

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    DetharinDetharin Registered User regular
    On the subject of mines and cluster bombs I have a theory that the Jedi order for thousands of years has used its political clout to prevent the military from researching anti-jedi weapons. By spreading the myth that no non force user could ever stand up to a force user, that all jedi are awesome, and burying all evidence of the Sith it becomes pretty apparent that they do not want anyone actually asking the question "what if we needed to kill a Jedi."

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    NocrenNocren Lt Futz, Back in Action North CarolinaRegistered User regular
    It's funny how no one ever suspected Kamino of orchestrating the whole conflict. They would have benefited from the assassination of Padme since she opposed the military creation act. They benefited from the tensions with the Separatists since they just happened to have an army of clones the Republic could buy to counter the Separatist's droid army. They benefited from the war since they were the Republic's biggest arms supplier.

    To be fair they have a paper trail pointing back to the jedi.

    Which still doesn't make any sense...

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