BS charge in bank account

mr_mich

So, I'm mostly posting this to vent and because my Credit Union is closed until tomorrow morning. Any help is really appreciated though.

I use a local credit union because my main checking/savings bank doesn't have any physical branches nearby. I basically dump a bit of money out of every paycheck in there with direct deposit to keep it open, and to have some less accessible money sitting somewhere. I never really check it, as I don't have checks or a debit card for the account, and I figure one day when I need a few G's it'll be sitting there.

So today I'm checking the year's statements, and notice that in late November there was a $220 fine listed as "VERIZON - PAYMENTONE / DEBIT ACH." This is weird, because I have nothing with Verizon. What the fuck?

My plan is to go in tomorrow to a physical branch and cry fraud, and also bullshit. The whole reason I didn't even get a card/checks is to avoid situations like this. I know they're smaller than other banks, and probably don't have the fraud prevention of a BoA or USAA or something, but there's 0 reason for me to park a bit of cash there if I have to deal with this stuff. I'm worried because I hope it's not too late to get my money back, but also because I have no idea how this happened. A quick Googling shows that PaymentOne does scam a ton of people, but how'd they get my savings account number? One which has no cards/checks/bill payments linked to it? When I have absolutely NO Verizon account?!

see317

Definitely go in and talk to them, but maintain your calm. If the first person you talk to can't help speak with their manager and so on until you find someone that can. Don't get loud, don't get pissy. Nobody likes to help that guy, and in a bank or credit union it may get the cops called.

Keep in mind though, due to the time that's passed, there may be nothing they can do for you, being that the charge to your account was made so long ago. Had you caught the charge in November or December of last year it may have been easier to fix. But after 2 and a half months, who knows?

As for getting your account number, I'd guess somebody mistyped their account number when entering information for an online payment or something. After that it's pretty much automated. The account number was valid, the funds were there, beyond that an automated system doesn't care.

Druhim

Yeah, your credit union has limited responsibility for catching fraud and you should really keep a closer eye on the account balance so you catch stuff like this in a more timely manner. It's possible it was a bank error and not fraud, but even then you may have a very difficult time getting someone to spend more than a couple of minutes looking into it this far after the fact. Good luck! I disagree with what see317 says though. It's not as simple as just entering the wrong account number. You can't just log accidentally into someone else's account and make an electronic payment without having that person's password. Most likely this was either fraud or a bank error.

Gabriel_Pitt

If you can't get a resolution from your bank, get as much information as you can on the transaction and speak with Verizon, see if you can resolve it from that end.

Druhim

Verizon won't be able to help him if he doesn't have an account with them.

Aioua

Druhim wrote:

Yeah, your credit union has limited responsibility for catching fraud and you should really keep a closer eye on the account balance so you catch stuff like this in a more timely manner. It's possible it was a bank error and not fraud, but even then you may have a very difficult time getting someone to spend more than a couple of minutes looking into it this far after the fact. Good luck! I disagree with what see317 says though. It's not as simple as just entering the wrong account number. You can't just log accidentally into someone else's account and make an electronic payment without having that person's password. Most likely this was either fraud or a bank error.

I worked for a credit union for several years, and I'd say this is almost certianly a case of a mis-entered account number. Joe schmo can't just randomly charge stuff to random account numbers, but an ACH vendor sure can. Say Joe has an account at your Credit Union, and his account number is close to yours. He either enters it wrong or paymentone mistypes it. Either way they send the payment with the OP's number. Now ACHs are supposed to have names attached, and they're supposed to not go through if the name doesn't match the account number. This doesn't always happen, and (surprise, surprise) the scummier vendors are usually the ones to fiangle their payments through, even if they're wrong.

However, you probably still have a fairly good chance of getting this reversed. At my CU we'd fix this stuff years after the fact, especially if the transactions has mismatching names and were obviously in error.

Druhim

Yeah, I could see a vendor entering the wrong account number. But for someone making an online payment they're not going to log into their own account and then charge it to your account by accident, which is what it appeared see was talking about.

Eat it You Nasty Pig.

paymentone is not exactly known for their brilliant quality control. Still, if this is data entry error there should be a paper trail that the credit union can follow.

mr_mich

I stopped into the CU today. They were really helpful, and made me sign an affidavit refusing the charge.

The woman told me that it's not too late, and that she'd forward the affidavit to the fraud department. She said it should take 3-5 business days, at the most. She said that it should be pretty open-and-shut, I guess they petition PaymentONE for the details and if they can't prove it was me then they write it up as a fraud. Since it's not me...I should be fine.

I'll let you know how it works out; thanks for weighing in and letting me vent everyone

Druhim

Good news!

WildEEP

Actually if you call Verizon billing services and give them the account number the charge was sent to, they can pull up the charge and the account it was posted to.

mr_mich

I'll let the CU's fraud department do that; frankly I'm reluctant to just start handing out account numbers over the phone to companies I don't have charges with.

Hopefully I'll hear from the CU soon.

mr_mich

So I got a letter from the CU, stating that they can't refund the debit because it's been more than 60 days. This is sort of what I was afraid of, although I'm unsure of why neither the phone rep nor the account service manager I worked with in person were aware of that problem. I told them I was worried about the time lapse, and both assured me that this form would take care of it.

I'm going to go back in on Monday and talk to the service manager to see if there's anything else they can do. The letter from the CU told me to contact the ACH myself, but the outlook seems bleak. What's my recourse if Verizon lives up to their reputation of being incompetent? Can I go to small claims or something?

Draygo

You can always go to small claims, but is 220$ worth that amount of effort from you? Follow this down proper channels first before you think about small claims.

Considering the bank rep told you that form should have fixed it, I would start there. Find out why it didn't go as planned. Talk to her again, and again dont get pissy just follow their system.
Also at this point dont even bring up the word lawyer or lawsuit, thats the fastest way to get anyone to clam up and not help you anymore - then you are pretty much stuck and have to go to claims.

Druhim

Well, I don't see how this has anything to do with whether or not Verizon is incompetent. I'm pretty sure they don't have to release any info about someone else's cellphone account unless they're subpoenaed. It's probably illegal for them to release that info without a subpoena.

Aioua

mr_mich wrote:

So I got a letter from the CU, stating that they can't refund the debit because it's been more than 60 days. This is sort of what I was afraid of, although I'm unsure of why neither the phone rep nor the account service manager I worked with in person were aware of that problem. I told them I was worried about the time lapse, and both assured me that this form would take care of it.

I'm going to go back in on Monday and talk to the service manager to see if there's anything else they can do. The letter from the CU told me to contact the ACH myself, but the outlook seems bleak. What's my recourse if Verizon lives up to their reputation of being incompetent? Can I go to small claims or something?

Yeah this doesn't sound right to me. Tthose time limits are generally 60 days from when you received the statement on which the charge appeared. So charge was late november, if you have month end statments you get your statment early Dec, so unless it was the 1st or 2nd, you should be in the clear. I'm researching regs at the moment.

Also was the ACH in your name?

mr_mich

When I say Verizon's incompetence, I mean their notorious customer service. What am I supposed to tell them? "I got charged 3 months ago and have no account number or bill to reference. Here's my account number, please try and see if this was charged recently, and then give it back, assuming that my name isn't the one on the bill."

My only real option I think, besides small claims, is to go through the bank. If they have my back, then they can probably say "hey you charged _______'s account, prove it was him or we're calling it fraud." It sounds like they're probably not willing to do that post 60 days though.

Maybe there's some 60-day statue of limitations on stealing shit that I don't know about.

mr_mich

Aioua wrote:

Yeah this doesn't sound right to me. Tthose time limits are generally 60 days from when you received the statement on which the charge appeared. So charge was late november, if you have month end statments you get your statment early Dec, so unless it was the 1st or 2nd, you should be in the clear. I'm researching regs at the moment.

Also was the ACH in your name?

The form letter I got back from the CU says:

The rules governing ACH transactions specify that a disputed transaction must be returned within 60 days from the date the transaction posts on a member's account. The time limit has expired on the transactions in question. You will need to contact the company directly.

The transaction posted on 11/23/11. I'm not sure what you mean when you ask whether the ACH was in my name, literally all I have is my bank statement with a debit of $226.13 saying "VERIZON - PAYMENTONE ACH" and nothing else to go off of.

Aioua

K, that's not right. It's close, but not right. Putting together a post on Reg E as we speak.

Aioua

FDIC Regulation E

Relevant sections.

Sec 205.6, paragraph b, subparagraphs 3 and 4 wrote:

(3) Periodic statement; timely notice not given. A consumer must report an unauthorized electronic fund transfer that appears on a periodic statement within 60 days of the financial institution's transmittal of the statement to avoid liability for subsequent transfers. If the consumer fails to do so, the consumer's liability shall not exceed the amount of the unauthorized transfers that occur after the close of the 60 days and before notice to the institution, and that the institution establishes would not have occurred had the consumer notified the institution within the 60-day period. When an access device is involved in the unauthorized transfer, the consumer may be liable for other amounts set forth in paragraphs (b)(1) or (b)(2) of this section, as applicable.

(4) Extension of time limits. If the consumer's delay in notifying the financial institution was due to extenuating circumstances, the institution shall extend the times specified above to a reasonable period.

Sec 205.11, paragraph b, subparagraph 1, subparagraph i wrote:

(b) Notice of error from consumer--
(1) Timing; contents. A financial institution shall comply with the requirements of this section with respect to any oral or written notice of error from the consumer that:

(i) Is received by the institution no later than 60 days after the institution sends the periodic statement or provides the passbook documentation, required by § 205.9, on which the alleged error is first reflected;

(Man they formatted their paragraphs poorly)

So you have 60 days from when they send your statement. If you only get online statements it's the day your statement is viewable. So it comes down to that. that statement was from 12/01 ir 12/02 you're out of luck there.

Aioua

The transaction posted on 11/23/11. I'm not sure what you mean when you ask whether the ACH was in my name, literally all I have is my bank statement with a debit of $226.13 saying "VERIZON - PAYMENTONE ACH" and nothing else to go off of.

In the ACH logs it will have more info, including the name on the account it's sending to. Ask to see those. If it's it some random name other than yours they'll probably backpedal, since that's not even fraud, it's an error on their part for a transaction they should have rejected as "no such account".

mr_mich

Ugh, that's so hard to read. L2punctuate, FDIC.

That's very helpful though, thanks. I don't have eStatements...let me check the postmark date on their stuff. Could they argue that since the transaction was posted/available online, it's within 60 days of that? The wording does explicitly say "periodic statement" and "transmittal of that statement."

I signed the affidavit on 1/31/2012. 60 days before that is 12/2/2011, not including weekends or holidays (which isn't called out in the above regs, so I assume they don't matter). Regardless of whether they claim I use eStatements or paper ones, the electronic ones don't get mailed out until the 2nd (at least that's what this month's email is) and the paper ones surely can't be faster than that.

So what's my gameplan? I don't want to come off as a prick at the bank on Monday, but I basically need to cite that reg and state that it's 60 days from when the statement goes out and see if they can help?

Thanks so much for the help so far!

Edit: What do you mean the ACH logs? Is that something that my CU keeps? Or are you saying I should ask PaymentONE to see those?

DeShadowC

mr_mich wrote:

Edit: What do you mean the ACH logs? Is that something that my CU keeps?

Yes it'll be in their warehouse.

Aioua

mr_mich wrote:

Ugh, that's so hard to read. L2punctuate, FDIC.

That's very helpful though, thanks. I don't have eStatements...let me check the postmark date on their stuff. Could they argue that since the transaction was posted/available online, it's within 60 days of that? The wording does explicitly say "periodic statement" and "transmittal of that statement."

I signed the affidavit on 1/31/2012. 60 days before that is 12/2/2011, not including weekends or holidays (which isn't called out in the above regs, so I assume they don't matter). Regardless of whether they claim I use eStatements or paper ones, the electronic ones don't get mailed out until the 2nd (at least that's what this month's email is) and the paper ones surely can't be faster than that.

So what's my gameplan? I don't want to come off as a prick at the bank on Monday, but I basically need to cite that reg and state that it's 60 days from when the statement goes out and see if they can help?

Thanks so much for the help so far!

Edit: What do you mean the ACH logs? Is that something that my CU keeps? Or are you saying I should ask PaymentONE to see those?

Yeah online banking transaction history doesn't count as a statement. If you're getting email notices saying "your montly statement is ready!" that's your date. And 01/31 is the 61st day. You could still try playing ignorant.

When your CU gets an ACH payment request it comes with a whole bunch of info, not just your account number and who it's from. One of the things it should have in the request is the name on the payee's account.

mr_mich

Thanks for the help guys.

I'll go in on Monday and inform the woman who helped me that they sent me back this letter, which is incorrect. I know my affidavit is dated 1/31, but technically I tried calling the night before and spoke to someone who said I'd have to wait until morning. I doubt that helps, but I'll try and charm her into at least trying to pull some strings, or at least let me see that ACH log.

Do I have a right to see the ACH log as a member? Or is that something they can refuse to show me? Thanks, you guys are already helping a ton.

Aioua

mr_mich wrote:

Thanks for the help guys.

I'll go in on Monday and inform the woman who helped me that they sent me back this letter, which is incorrect. I know my affidavit is dated 1/31, but technically I tried calling the night before and spoke to someone who said I'd have to wait until morning. I doubt that helps, but I'll try and charm her into at least trying to pull some strings, or at least let me see that ACH log.

Do I have a right to see the ACH log as a member? Or is that something they can refuse to show me? Thanks, you guys are already helping a ton.

Ha! You calling the night before should be good enough.

(1) Timing; contents. A financial institution shall comply with the requirements of this section with respect to any oral or written notice of error from the consumer that:

I'm... pretty sure you're allowed to see those logs. We would send that info to members when they asked for it, so it's probably not illegal for you to see it at any rate. I'm not sure if you have a specific right to see them... I'm not sure where to look for that.

mr_mich

See, the second part of the reg you quoted that my complaint has to be received by the institution no more than 60 days afterwards, so I figured they wouldn't count it (since they have no record of just a phone call).

In any case, the people I was dealing with seemed helpful/friendly enough that I don't think they'd be the ones to pick nits. I'll go in Monday and see what I can dig up and report back.

You guys rule.

Aioua

mr_mich wrote:

See, the second part of the reg you quoted that my complaint has to be received by the institution no more than 60 days afterwards, so I figured they wouldn't count it (since they have no record of just a phone call).

In any case, the people I was dealing with seemed helpful/friendly enough that I don't think they'd be the ones to pick nits. I'll go in Monday and see what I can dig up and report back.

You guys rule.

Oh they have records of their phone calls. It may not have been recorded, and they may not have put any call notes into your file, but at the very least they could go back and see that they took a call from your phone number.

mr_mich

Ok, now I'm mad.

I went in and the woman helped as much as she could. She called the ACH desk, who told me I was SOL on the 60-day thing. She said that a) they're not FDIC, they're NCUA. Also that b) they're part of the Mid-Atlantic Clearinghouse Association and that the MACHA rule is 60-days from the transaction posting.

I should also mention that the book the woman at the desk handed me has a section which explicitly states 60 days from when the statement is released. The woman at the ACH desk said MACHA overrides that, and told me to google it.

Then they gave me the ACH logs, which contain nothing of use. It names Verizon as the company, PaymentONE as the description, and some random status codes. She said my only move now is to call Verizon and give them stuff from there, hoping to get my $220 back.

pacbowl

I would ask the CU if there is some sort of lock or protection you can put on the account to prevent this from happening again. I mean, if you have no credit/debit cards or checks associated with the account, how did this happen? If you can lose this much money because of a mis-key and nobody caught it, then you can lose much more.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Druhim

That's not really how banks work. If you close your account with $500 in it, they're not losing $500. They're just losing the opportunity to earn on that $500, which for that amount of money is not that significant. So no, that's not really going to scare them. If you have tens of thousands of dollars in the account, then that tactic might have some traction but considering that he just tosses some money in their occasionally, I'm betting his balance is under $5k which really isn't going to have much pull with them.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Druhim

And I said I doubt he has the kind of money in that account that it would take to offset that $220. Glad we agree!

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Gnomercy

Ya it takes a lot of business with a bank to offset $220 coming right out of their pocket. It's not like fee income that you would normally get charged to your account for overdrafts. In that case its you paying them $220 for fees and them just giving it right back to you in the form of a fee reversal. In this case it's some other company taking $220 out of your account and you wanting the bank to basically give you $220 that the other company is currently enjoying.

Unfortunately I think you will have to struggle for the $220 from Verizon because of the lapse of the 60 day due diligence period where you are supposed to periodically go over your account to avoid fraudulent charges like this.

I hope you do get your money back though!

Aioua

mr_mich wrote:

Ok, now I'm mad.

I went in and the woman helped as much as she could. She called the ACH desk, who told me I was SOL on the 60-day thing. She said that a) they're not FDIC, they're NCUA. Also that b) they're part of the Mid-Atlantic Clearinghouse Association and that the MACHA rule is 60-days from the transaction posting.

I should also mention that the book the woman at the desk handed me has a section which explicitly states 60 days from when the statement is released. The woman at the ACH desk said MACHA overrides that, and told me to google it.

Then they gave me the ACH logs, which contain nothing of use. It names Verizon as the company, PaymentONE as the description, and some random status codes. She said my only move now is to call Verizon and give them stuff from there, hoping to get my $220 back.

Bleh. Sorry man. Welcome to the banking system, where there's 30 different sets of regulations, and you can pick and choose which ones you want to follow.

Figgy

I would still go in there and talk to the manager, closing my account if they don't help further.

It's not about "sticking it to the credit union." It's more about not storing your money in an institution where this can happen and where they wash their hands if you don't catch it in time. Seems like a great way to make some extra dough off people who have an account they don't often access.

DeShadowC

Figgy wrote:

I would still go in there and talk to the manager, closing my account if they don't help further.

It's not about "sticking it to the credit union." It's more about not storing your money in an institution where this can happen and where they wash their hands if you don't catch it in time. Seems like a great way to make some extra dough off people who have an account they don't often access.

Please tell me how they're making money off of another company processing an ACH on his account lowering the balance and therefore the money they can use to make more money.

Figgy

DeShadowC wrote:

Figgy wrote:

I would still go in there and talk to the manager, closing my account if they don't help further.

It's not about "sticking it to the credit union." It's more about not storing your money in an institution where this can happen and where they wash their hands if you don't catch it in time. Seems like a great way to make some extra dough off people who have an account they don't often access.

Please tell me how they're making money off of another company processing an ACH on his account lowering the balance and therefore the money they can use to make more money.

Well, an employee could issue a fraudulent withdrawal to an account. If the account holder didn't catch it in 60 days, they won't do anything about it. I'm not saying it's happening, but this credit union seems pretty lousy.

DeShadowC

Figgy wrote:

DeShadowC wrote:

Figgy wrote:

I would still go in there and talk to the manager, closing my account if they don't help further.

It's not about "sticking it to the credit union." It's more about not storing your money in an institution where this can happen and where they wash their hands if you don't catch it in time. Seems like a great way to make some extra dough off people who have an account they don't often access.

Please tell me how they're making money off of another company processing an ACH on his account lowering the balance and therefore the money they can use to make more money.

Well, an employee could issue a fraudulent withdrawal to an account. If the account holder didn't catch it in 60 days, they won't do anything about it. I'm not saying it's happening, but this credit union seems pretty lousy.

That would be a massively different situation. 60 days from the post date is what I've always heard for credit unions.