The only thing that makes mutas work is that WALL of spines.
Then again, I haven't played against mutas in a while since I go all in with probes first every game the second I scout clear signs that he is going muta/ling.
Edit: I have also stopped going ffe, i've seen the pro players skipped it as well sometime. And it just works better for me.
Rofflor on
0
VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
I usually play better than the protoss, but they have forcefields, so that makes up for the talent gap. I wish zerg had a talent gap unit. Terran has marines, and toss has sentries for forcefields.
I'm not sure if this is what you're talking about, but unless the T is up on bases, I almost never leave a ZvT. One good bane hit or tank snipe can turn any loss into a win. Microing against Ling Bane Muta is haaard and microing with it... isn't
I almost never leave until I have zero army and nothing producing haha
surviving an entire Z army can turn a loss into a win.
it really is the best matchup. re: P since everyone is talking about it, I really sincerely hope they don't get any kind of buff unless it's on to directly help against mutas because they don't need help in pvt right now. pvt is starting to look like protoss' game to lose from the outset
they can 20 nexus on big enough maps or 1 gate fe and expand with little trouble holding almost any aggression (save 1/1/1, although that gets stopped most of the time now). if they scout a 1 rax fe (which is easy with how early protoss can scout) there are myriad of very strong pressures or all ins they can do. likewise if they expand as the T did, there are myriad all ins and aggressions they can do.
rarely will all those terran 2 base aggression timings get anything done
and if P skips their strong 1 base all ins and aggressions and skips their 2 base all ins and aggressions, they get to the 3 base archon/templar/colossus mixture that requires ... quite a lot of things to go correctly for T to win. including having an army to fight the instant warp in of 10+ zealots.
I usually play better than the protoss, but they have forcefields, so that makes up for the talent gap. I wish zerg had a talent gap unit. Terran has marines, and toss has sentries for forcefields.
I'm not sure if this is what you're talking about, but unless the T is up on bases, I almost never leave a ZvT. One good bane hit or tank snipe can turn any loss into a win. Microing against Ling Bane Muta is haaard and microing with it... isn't
I almost never leave until I have zero army and nothing producing haha
surviving an entire Z army can turn a loss into a win.
it really is the best matchup. re: P since everyone is talking about it, I really sincerely hope they don't get any kind of buff unless it's on to directly help against mutas because they don't need help in pvt right now. pvt is starting to look like protoss' game to lose from the outset
they can 20 nexus on big enough maps or 1 gate fe and expand with little trouble holding almost any aggression (save 1/1/1, although that gets stopped most of the time now). if they scout a 1 rax fe (which is easy with how early protoss can scout) there are myriad of very strong pressures or all ins they can do. likewise if they expand as the T did, there are myriad all ins and aggressions they can do.
rarely will all those terran 2 base aggression timings get anything done
and if P skips their strong 1 base all ins and aggressions and skips their 2 base all ins and aggressions, they get to the 3 base archon/templar/colossus mixture that requires ... quite a lot of things to go correctly for T to win. including having an army to fight the instant warp in of 10+ zealots.
I hate tvp.
TvP is broken because blizzard designed protoss counters to terran units when terran units were stupidly good against zerg. Hence, tank and BFH nerfs. These were perfect to do decently against protoss units before the nerf, but were absolutely broken against zerg. So they got nerfed. Now those things are useless in TvP except for early game all ins. And hellion drops. Hellion drops will never get old. But a late game tank ends up hurting more than it helps.
I was bored in History class today and did some math on TvP economies while considering openings other than 1Rax FE, figured I'd share it since you're all talking about TvP.
2Rax, 6:00 Expansion, 39 SCVs and 2 OCs at 10:00, effective 47 workers
1Rax FE, 3:20 Expansion, 49 SCVs and 2 OCs at 10:00, effective 57 workers
1Rax 3OC, 3:20 and 4:15 Expansions, 61 SCVs and 3 OCs at 10:00, effective 73 workers
1 Gate FE, 4:45 Expansion, 48 Probes w/o Chrono - 59 Probes w/ all Chrono at 10:00
Nexus First, 2:20 Expansion, 56 Probes w/o Chrono - 69 Probes w/ all Chrono at 10:00
Thorin: 'if aliens came to earth, and set up a starcraft match, and if you had to pick three players, one for each race, to play against them for the fate of humanity, who would they be?'
MMA: 'day[9]. i think he can talk really well with the aliens'
So, I pulled off that Mothership-Phoenix-Observer composition in a late game PvP. It was awesome.
fuuuuu!
Stay away from the eu ladder from now on.
But nice to hear mma talk about Master Jane that way. Even if koreans pick Thorzain for their favourite on a regular basis I never really understood why.
Vari kinda hit it on the head. A Terran absolutely has to dismantle the Protoss army, or engage far enough away from his own base that the instant reinforcements don't outright win the game for the Protoss following the engagement. Tanks aren't super viable against lategame Toss due to Blink+Charge. I think it was said earlier in the thread, but as the game stands right now, the tanks are to protect your Bio core. Against Toss, that role is/was reversed, and they don't really hold up in to that style anymore.
I was bored in History class today and did some math on TvP economies while considering openings other than 1Rax FE, figured I'd share it since you're all talking about TvP.
2Rax, 6:00 Expansion, 41 SCVs and 2 OCs at 10:00, effective 49 workers
1Rax FE, 3:20 Expansion, 50 SCVs and 2 OCs at 10:00, effective 58 workers
1Rax 3OC, 3:20 and 4:15 Expansions, 62 SCVs and 3 OCs at 10:00, effective 74 workers
1 Gate FE, 4:45 Expansion, 53 Probes w/o Chrono - 65 Probes w/ all Chrono at 10:00
Nexus First, 2:20 Expansion, 60 Probes w/o Chrono - 74 Probes w/ all Chrono at 10:00
Can you show your math a bit?
Interesting that chrono boosting probes can literally change a build's composition from probably fine to immensely greedy.
Really makes you wonder about the fact that even up to the pro level protoss start banking chrono boosts like mad beyond like their first 8-10. A little more efficient boosting on gateways could save enough minerals to take 4/5/6th gases earlier and completely change how builds look in general.
I was bored in History class today and did some math on TvP economies while considering openings other than 1Rax FE, figured I'd share it since you're all talking about TvP.
2Rax, 6:00 Expansion, 41 SCVs and 2 OCs at 10:00, effective 49 workers
1Rax FE, 3:20 Expansion, 50 SCVs and 2 OCs at 10:00, effective 58 workers
1Rax 3OC, 3:20 and 4:15 Expansions, 62 SCVs and 3 OCs at 10:00, effective 74 workers
1 Gate FE, 4:45 Expansion, 53 Probes w/o Chrono - 65 Probes w/ all Chrono at 10:00
Nexus First, 2:20 Expansion, 60 Probes w/o Chrono - 74 Probes w/ all Chrono at 10:00
Can you explain your math a bit?
Interesting that chrono boosting probes can literally change a build's composition from probably fine to immensely greedy.
Really makes you wonder about the fact that even up to the pro level protoss start banking chrono boosts like mad beyond like their first 8-10. A little more efficient boosting on gateways could save enough minerals to take 4/5/6th gases earlier and completely change how builds look in general.
Noticed some rounding mistakes, fixed them in the original post now.
I was bored in History class today and did some math on TvP economies while considering openings other than 1Rax FE, figured I'd share it since you're all talking about TvP.
2Rax, 6:00 Expansion, 39 SCVs and 2 OCs at 10:00, effective 47 workers
1Rax FE, 3:20 Expansion, 49 SCVs and 2 OCs at 10:00, effective 57 workers
1Rax 3OC, 3:20 and 4:15 Expansions, 61 SCVs and 3 OCs at 10:00, effective 73 workers
1 Gate FE, 4:45 Expansion, 48 Probes w/o Chrono - 59 Probes w/ all Chrono at 10:00
Nexus First, 2:20 Expansion, 56 Probes w/o Chrono - 69 Probes w/ all Chrono at 10:00
I took the time the initial base is up, added the time the expansions were up, then divided by 17 to find workers at 10 minutes. After that I accounted for racial bonuses.
So 2Rax is (600+(600-495))/17+8-2
600 seconds of worker production on main CC plus 105 seconds of production time on natural CC (600s - 360s from start of game - 100s build time - 35s OC morph), over 17 seconds per worker is 40 workers. Each OC regenerates enough energy to have one MULE up at a time, which mines at a rate of 4 workers. Then I subtracted 2 workers for the time spent morphing the main OC.
The Nexus First with max Chrono is (600+(600-240)+(432/2))/17
The time both Nexi are up (600+(600-240)), times the natural energy regen rate of .5625 per second, over 25 energy per Chrono, times 20 seconds of boost per Chrono, is 432 seconds of Chronoed Nexus. Chrono improves production by 50%, so the time a Nexus spends Chronoed is effectively 1.5 times greater, so I add one half of the Chronoed time to the total time that the Nexi are producing.
Well drawing conclusions, I'd say it means a Protoss seeing a Terran going for a greedy build can go for an even greedier build with little risk just be reallocating their chrono. 1 gate FE drops your Nexus a minute later, but still puts you at the same workers or massively ahead depending on how you allocate your chronoboost.
I was bored in History class today and did some math on TvP economies while considering openings other than 1Rax FE, figured I'd share it since you're all talking about TvP.
2Rax, 6:00 Expansion, 41 SCVs and 2 OCs at 10:00, effective 49 workers
1Rax FE, 3:20 Expansion, 50 SCVs and 2 OCs at 10:00, effective 58 workers
1Rax 3OC, 3:20 and 4:15 Expansions, 62 SCVs and 3 OCs at 10:00, effective 74 workers
1 Gate FE, 4:45 Expansion, 53 Probes w/o Chrono - 65 Probes w/ all Chrono at 10:00
Nexus First, 2:20 Expansion, 60 Probes w/o Chrono - 74 Probes w/ all Chrono at 10:00
Can you explain your math a bit?
Interesting that chrono boosting probes can literally change a build's composition from probably fine to immensely greedy.
Really makes you wonder about the fact that even up to the pro level protoss start banking chrono boosts like mad beyond like their first 8-10. A little more efficient boosting on gateways could save enough minerals to take 4/5/6th gases earlier and completely change how builds look in general.
Noticed some rounding mistakes, fixed them in the original post now.
I was bored in History class today and did some math on TvP economies while considering openings other than 1Rax FE, figured I'd share it since you're all talking about TvP.
2Rax, 6:00 Expansion, 38 SCVs and 2 OCs at 10:00, effective 46 workers
1Rax FE, 3:20 Expansion, 48 SCVs and 2 OCs at 10:00, effective 56 workers
1Rax 3OC, 3:20 and 4:15 Expansions, 60 SCVs and 3 OCs at 10:00, effective 72 workers
1 Gate FE, 4:45 Expansion, 47 Probes w/o Chrono - 58 Probes w/ all Chrono at 10:00
Nexus First, 2:20 Expansion, 55 Probes w/o Chrono - 68 Probes w/ all Chrono at 10:00
I took the time the initial base is up, added the time the expansions were up, then divided by 17 to find workers at 10 minutes. After that I accounted for racial bonuses.
So 2Rax is (600+(600-495))/17+8-2
600 seconds of worker production on main CC plus 105 seconds of production time on natural CC (600s - 360s from start of game - 100s build time - 35s OC morph), over 17 seconds per worker is 40 workers. Each OC regenerates enough energy to have one MULE up at a time, which mines at a rate of 4 workers. Then I subtracted 2 workers for the time spent morphing the main OC.
The Nexus First with max Chrono is (600+(600-240)+(432/2))/17
The time both Nexi are up (600+(600-240)), times the natural energy regen rate of .5625 per second, over 25 energy per Chrono, times 20 seconds of boost per Chrono, is 432 seconds of Chronoed Nexus. Chrono improves production by 50%, so the time a Nexus spends Chronoed is effectively 1.5 times greater, so I add one half of the Chronoed time to the total time that the Nexi are producing.
1Gate FE no Chrono=(600+(600-385))/17
Nexus First no Chrono=(600+(600-240))/17
1Gate FE all Chrono=(600+(600-385)+(367/2))/17
Nexus First all Chrono=(600+(600-240)+(432/2))/17
Nerd
"The only way to get rid of a temptation is to give into it." - Oscar Wilde
"We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
I don't watch a lot of pro streams, so maybe I'm misunderstanding this - are people saying that the "metagame" is just now, at the end of Season 5 starting to seriously incorporate mid-game aggression?
It can't really be that most games are either an all-in, or "15min NR kk?" macro races, can it? I just assumed that better players than I were constantly poking and scrapping, looking for any tiny advantage all game long.
Also, I seek your advice - I feel pretty confident in my first ~7 minutes or so of play. My mechanics are no longer terrible and I can get to the point where I have two bases saturated and a third building with few to no mistakes pretty consistently. This is winning me games, but it won't win forever, so I want to challenge myself to improve. I want something to work toward after the 12-minute Big Engagement most games end in, something that will stretch my multitasking and force me to start going to 3-4 bases more reliably. Help me decide what to work on!
Should I:
1) Always Build Infestors - never commit to a major attack until I have a command group with 4-5 infestors in it to back up my lings/roaches
or 2) Baneling Bombs Ahoy - as soon as lair tech finishes, always get both OL speed (which I always do anyway) and transport (which I never do) and never commit to a major attack unless I'm also sending a flight of baneling bombers over the enemy mineral lines
ZvT is like that (constant aggression and poking) and has been for awhile. It is easily the most developed and dynamic match-up. Sometimes PvT is like that and sometimes you get passive macro games. PvZ has recently been moving more towards a dynamic mid-game but it still suffers from 'all-in or play passively' syndrome. The warp prism has done a lot to alleviate the problem though.
JUST woke up and fresh out of the shower
he has such a stunned look on his face
I had to laugh out loud
^_^
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
0
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Chronoboosting workers is somewhat akin to droning as a Zerg. Its why I have basically let go of the idea that I need to expand ahead of a terran to be okay. A safe 1gate nexus cc becomes unbelievably greedy if you allocate all chrono to probes.
Its funny because Cloud is totally ItalianoMarineKing and he always insults Goody online. But his style is just not appropriate for a huge well positioned tank count so has to change it up when they play and just consistently loses to the Iron Maiden Terran.
redraptor on
0
TannerMS "I'm confidence cause I'm zerg!"Registered Userregular
Posts
YAY
Then again, I haven't played against mutas in a while since I go all in with probes first every game the second I scout clear signs that he is going muta/ling.
Edit: I have also stopped going ffe, i've seen the pro players skipped it as well sometime. And it just works better for me.
I almost never leave until I have zero army and nothing producing haha
surviving an entire Z army can turn a loss into a win.
it really is the best matchup. re: P since everyone is talking about it, I really sincerely hope they don't get any kind of buff unless it's on to directly help against mutas because they don't need help in pvt right now. pvt is starting to look like protoss' game to lose from the outset
they can 20 nexus on big enough maps or 1 gate fe and expand with little trouble holding almost any aggression (save 1/1/1, although that gets stopped most of the time now). if they scout a 1 rax fe (which is easy with how early protoss can scout) there are myriad of very strong pressures or all ins they can do. likewise if they expand as the T did, there are myriad all ins and aggressions they can do.
rarely will all those terran 2 base aggression timings get anything done
and if P skips their strong 1 base all ins and aggressions and skips their 2 base all ins and aggressions, they get to the 3 base archon/templar/colossus mixture that requires ... quite a lot of things to go correctly for T to win. including having an army to fight the instant warp in of 10+ zealots.
I hate tvp.
as such, i will ignore it
TvP is broken because blizzard designed protoss counters to terran units when terran units were stupidly good against zerg. Hence, tank and BFH nerfs. These were perfect to do decently against protoss units before the nerf, but were absolutely broken against zerg. So they got nerfed. Now those things are useless in TvP except for early game all ins. And hellion drops. Hellion drops will never get old. But a late game tank ends up hurting more than it helps.
20 min interview with mma, about all kinds of things, his time in bw, korea terran, thorzain, etc etc.
it's subtitled instead of the usual very long interview translation method which is p. cool
edit: this is a really good interview you should all go watch it
edit2: talking about tvp and how terran has to be aggressive or they get rolled by 200/200 p now
mma secret pa forumer
2Rax, 6:00 Expansion, 39 SCVs and 2 OCs at 10:00, effective 47 workers
1Rax FE, 3:20 Expansion, 49 SCVs and 2 OCs at 10:00, effective 57 workers
1Rax 3OC, 3:20 and 4:15 Expansions, 61 SCVs and 3 OCs at 10:00, effective 73 workers
1 Gate FE, 4:45 Expansion, 48 Probes w/o Chrono - 59 Probes w/ all Chrono at 10:00
Nexus First, 2:20 Expansion, 56 Probes w/o Chrono - 69 Probes w/ all Chrono at 10:00
mma new favourite player
interview has made me like him a lot more
=(
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
fuuuuu!
Stay away from the eu ladder from now on.
But nice to hear mma talk about Master Jane that way. Even if koreans pick Thorzain for their favourite on a regular basis I never really understood why.
Wow... really?
Yeah everything I read so far says so... nice!
I also didn't realize that Tunneling claws DOUBLES the health regeneration rate from 5 hp / sec to 10 / sec.
Now I can adjust my argument:
QQ
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
Can you show your math a bit?
Interesting that chrono boosting probes can literally change a build's composition from probably fine to immensely greedy.
Really makes you wonder about the fact that even up to the pro level protoss start banking chrono boosts like mad beyond like their first 8-10. A little more efficient boosting on gateways could save enough minerals to take 4/5/6th gases earlier and completely change how builds look in general.
Noticed some rounding mistakes, fixed them in the original post now.
I took the time the initial base is up, added the time the expansions were up, then divided by 17 to find workers at 10 minutes. After that I accounted for racial bonuses.
So 2Rax is (600+(600-495))/17+8-2
600 seconds of worker production on main CC plus 105 seconds of production time on natural CC (600s - 360s from start of game - 100s build time - 35s OC morph), over 17 seconds per worker is 40 workers. Each OC regenerates enough energy to have one MULE up at a time, which mines at a rate of 4 workers. Then I subtracted 2 workers for the time spent morphing the main OC.
The Nexus First with max Chrono is (600+(600-240)+(432/2))/17
The time both Nexi are up (600+(600-240)), times the natural energy regen rate of .5625 per second, over 25 energy per Chrono, times 20 seconds of boost per Chrono, is 432 seconds of Chronoed Nexus. Chrono improves production by 50%, so the time a Nexus spends Chronoed is effectively 1.5 times greater, so I add one half of the Chronoed time to the total time that the Nexi are producing.
Here's all the equations:
1Rax FE=(600+(600-335))/17+8-2
1Rax 3OC=(600+(600-335)+(600-390))/17+12-2
1Gate FE no Chrono=(600+(600-385))/17
Nexus First no Chrono=(600+(600-240))/17
1Gate FE all Chrono=(600+(600-385)+(367/2))/17
Nexus First all Chrono=(600+(600-240)+(432/2))/17
How does this relate to the current TvP metagame?
Edit: I suppose you could use it to see how much damage you'd need to do with a 2Rax to come out even.
Nerd
"We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
It can't really be that most games are either an all-in, or "15min NR kk?" macro races, can it? I just assumed that better players than I were constantly poking and scrapping, looking for any tiny advantage all game long.
Also, I seek your advice - I feel pretty confident in my first ~7 minutes or so of play. My mechanics are no longer terrible and I can get to the point where I have two bases saturated and a third building with few to no mistakes pretty consistently. This is winning me games, but it won't win forever, so I want to challenge myself to improve. I want something to work toward after the 12-minute Big Engagement most games end in, something that will stretch my multitasking and force me to start going to 3-4 bases more reliably. Help me decide what to work on!
Should I:
1) Always Build Infestors - never commit to a major attack until I have a command group with 4-5 infestors in it to back up my lings/roaches
or
2) Baneling Bombs Ahoy - as soon as lair tech finishes, always get both OL speed (which I always do anyway) and transport (which I never do) and never commit to a major attack unless I'm also sending a flight of baneling bombers over the enemy mineral lines
Your Ad Here! Reasonable Rates!
You see Apollo
JUST woke up and fresh out of the shower
he has such a stunned look on his face
I had to laugh out loud
^_^
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
B.net: Kusanku
what the fuck was that
Looks fine for me.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
B.net: Kusanku
Edit: To Clafiry -
Cloud has 15 or so Vikings, 6 BC's, and about 8 tanks.
He is going against 2 tanks sieged up, a pair of Thors, and 18 or so Vikings.
Answer: Unsiege, roll in, and win the goddamned game. Instead he dances his vikings and BC's back and forth for 2 minutes losing them all.
Duh.
Watching him win is hilarious