heroth i think you're slightly underestimating how stupid-good space marines are
like, they can kick the ass of anything short of a daemon prince without breaking a sweat
letting someone control one would be the equivalent of, say, letting a player control onyxia while everyone else was hogger
No, i know full well what marines are capable of.
I'd just like them to find a way to balance that, and i admit i can't exactly think of a way.
Limiting there numbers wouldn't exactly work i think, that way you'd have a group of people do whatever to become them, and then stay that way. depriving anyone else of even having a chance.
I'd just like a fair shot at playing them, just like everyone else will easily be able to play there Favorite Race because they aren't deemed 'over-powered'...
this is why i said they wont even bother; they'll just homogenise everything by forcing you to become and inquisitor and decide who you fight by getting you to pick an inquisitorial style
I have no idea how this could even work as an MMO. I love the setting, but MMO players won't think such a hardcore setting will be fun, and to do less would be to do the setting a disservice.
Verdict: Either this will be fun and not 40k, or it will suck balls.
I hate to say it, but I totally agree.
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UtsanomikoBros before DoesRollin' in the thlayRegistered Userregular
heroth i think you're slightly underestimating how stupid-good space marines are
like, they can kick the ass of anything short of a daemon prince without breaking a sweat
letting someone control one would be the equivalent of, say, letting a player control onyxia while everyone else was hogger
Not at all quite like that, but the tabletop game does make a compromise by balancing Marines to only half as costly as a veteran guardsmen. They're eight half feet of ceramic bones and extra redundant organs, they don't bleed, don't need to sleep, don't get poisoned, diseased, or fatigued, can gnaw through iron, punch a man's head off, and maintain 50-to-1 kill ratios.
And there's about one million of them for one million worlds in the Imperium. You have a game that involves obtaining induction into an Astartes Chapter you'll need to center half the game around it, because almost everyone will want to do it. Sony didn't realize that when they included Jedi in SW:G and thus the game became incoherent in focus, which made them revamp huge parts of the game and lose most of their player base. I don't see Space Marines bing inclusive with all the other things want to see in an online 40k world, like Rogue Traders and Eldar.
Maybe if the game involved controlling individual squads or small warbands, like a 30-man Guard platoon vs five Marines. But I think We'll get a WAR/WoW clone with Marines LFGing quests sooner than that.
I think what will happen is that the game will have a Order vs Disorder vs Tyranids sort of deal. Located on a planet with a very diverse ecosystem and cities doting the map.
I think what will happen is that the game will have a Order vs Disorder vs Tyranids sort of deal. Located on a planet with a very diverse ecosystem and cities doting the map.
Oh jesus christ, why an ecosystem?
Space Marines don't waste their time shooting animals.
heroth i think you're slightly underestimating how stupid-good space marines are
like, they can kick the ass of anything short of a daemon prince without breaking a sweat
letting someone control one would be the equivalent of, say, letting a player control onyxia while everyone else was hogger
Not at all quite like that, but the tabletop game does make a compromise by balancing Marines to only half as costly as a veteran guardsmen. They're eight half feet of ceramic bones and extra redundant organs, they don't bleed, don't need to sleep, don't get poisoned, diseased, or fatigued, can gnaw through iron, punch a man's head off, and maintain 50-to-1 kill ratios.
And there's about one million of them for one million worlds in the Imperium. You have a game that involves obtaining induction into an Astartes Chapter you'll need to center half the game around it, because almost everyone will want to do it. Sony didn't realize that when they included Jedi in SW:G and thus the game became incoherent in focus, which made them revamp huge parts of the game and lose most of their player base. I don't see Space Marines bing inclusive with all the other things want to see in an online 40k world, like Rogue Traders and Eldar.
Maybe if the game involved controlling individual squads or small warbands, like a 30-man Guard platoon vs five Marines. But I think We'll get a WAR/WoW clone with Marines LFGing quests sooner than that.
I'm hoping for something on the vein of Planetside's certification system.
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ZimmydoomAccept no substitutesRegistered Userregular
heroth i think you're slightly underestimating how stupid-good space marines are
like, they can kick the ass of anything short of a daemon prince without breaking a sweat
letting someone control one would be the equivalent of, say, letting a player control onyxia while everyone else was hogger
You know, I take objection to you saying that the way they are depicted in Inquisition is more canon than they way they are depicted in 40K. Inquisition is a part of the Specialist line, which is not even close to being canon in the way that the core game is. Now, 1st company? That's a different story. But even then, they aren't really any scarier than a mega armored 'Nob or an Exarch.
Space Marines are supposed to be dead 'ard. Like, as tough as an Ork 'Nob, or an Eldar Aspect Warrior. They should be available, but only as a reward for Imperial players who choose to go that route. One good way of handling it would be to have the campaign take place on the Marines' Chapter World, and as Imperial players gain experience they can choose to "class up" to either a Marine conscript or take a commission with IG command.
There are ways of including Marines that stay true to canon, as long as you're careful about it. This is more than I can say for a game where everyone is a member of the Inquisition, which is so fucking ludicrous I don't know where to begin.
Zimmydoom, Zimmydoom
Flew away in a balloon
Had sex with polar bears
While sitting in a reclining chair
Now there are Zim-Bear hybrids
Running around and clawing eyelids
Watch out, a Zim-Bear is about to have sex with yooooooou!
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UtsanomikoBros before DoesRollin' in the thlayRegistered Userregular
I think what will happen is that the game will have a Order vs Disorder vs Tyranids vs Craftworlds vs Greater Good vs Ork Empires vs Necrons vs sort of deal.
This game is either going to have to focus on a very select couple races and style of gaming or muddle everything by trying to appeal everyone, and thus be appealing to no one.
Maybe if the game involved controlling individual squads or small warbands, like a 30-man Guard platoon vs five Marines. But I think We'll get a WAR/WoW clone with Marines LFGing quests sooner than that.
that would be an absolute slaughter
i doubt the guardsmen would even see them
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UtsanomikoBros before DoesRollin' in the thlayRegistered Userregular
Maybe if the game involved controlling individual squads or small warbands, like a 30-man Guard platoon vs five Marines. But I think We'll get a WAR/WoW clone with Marines LFGing quests sooner than that.
that would be an absolute slaughter
i doubt the guardsmen would even see them
That's the problem, the game would never work with a whole collection of races that includes the extreme range of races like Marines and Guardsmen, let alone everything in between. They'd have to muddle them all into near-identical levels of power. I'd much rather see Space Hulk online or loyalist Marine Chapters vs Chaos Legions than an incoherent mess of people grinding their way up to the highest 20% of ranks just to become a Marine.
I could totally live with just a Chaos vs Space Marine game, at least it'll give them something narrow to focus on and balancing won't be as awful as having like 8 races.
Zimmydoom, Zimmydoom
Flew away in a balloon
Had sex with polar bears
While sitting in a reclining chair
Now there are Zim-Bear hybrids
Running around and clawing eyelids
Watch out, a Zim-Bear is about to have sex with yooooooou!
There are two ways to do 40k. You do a proper game, where;
- Space Marines are required to spend 90% of in-game time spamming "pray to gun", "pray to Emperor", and "contemplate killing Orks" emotes.
- Guardsman characters fight a Chaos mob, and are executed by the quest-giver for being exposed to the Dark Gods. Space Marine characters are mind-wiped and reset to their starting level or power.
- Eldar switch classes every ten levels, only one or two of which will be combat oriented. The rest of their career they'll be purely crafters, singers, poets, or gardeners. Also, they can be one-shotted by anything else in the game.
- Grey Knights can only be played in Chaos instances.
- Chaos characters must choose a god, and have their entire interface changed to allow only limited activities, like combat or cybering and taking in-game drugs.
- Inquisitors and Commissars are always PvP-enabled against allies, but cannot be attacked in return.
Or...
A Necromunda, Gorkamorka, or otherwise limited game where there are no Space Marines, everyone plays the same race, and your goddamn leader dies in the first room of any instance, every time.
In truth, I don't see how a 40k game can be done that both plays to the popular elements of the setting and doesn't rape the shit out of it. Also, 40k has been getting shittier for almost a decade now. It was better when things didn't make sense, madness was everywhere, and Dan Abnett wasn't turning it into a WWI drama in space.
like i said, inquisitor mmo would make the most sense;
- everyone is of roughly equivalent base power
- everyone has access to the same equipment
- the inquisitors hate each other enough that they'll gladly fight (pvp)
- the inquisitors hate everything else so much they'll gladly fight it (pve)
- they wouldn't have to bother trying to work squad mechanics in there
- you could have a number of different planets to explore, perhaps each against a different race (vs. eldar, chaos, necrons etc.)
there are a myriad of problems with playing different races
but the only ones who will know about the problems, or make a fuss when they completely ignore and revamp the world are the hardcore 40k fans..and unfortunatly the hardcore 40k fanbase who would buy an authentic 40k MMO will be far surpassed by the masses who will go "OMG, ITS LIKE WoW WITH SOME WEIRD UNDEAD RACE! AND ORCS! (yes, they will say orcs with a C!) AND GIANT HUMAN MARINE GUYS, IN SPACE! BUY BUY BUY"
and its all about what'll make you more money
The tabletop game doesn't stay consistent with the background either, so I don't see why its such a stretch for them to do the same with a video game.
because in tabletop terms it balances out because it takes ten space marines to kill thirty imperial guardsmen, whereas in game terms you're asking for one space marine to kill one guardsman, otherwise it becomes hideously unfair for the guard player
at which point there's basically point in playing a space marine at all; not to mention space marines spend like 15 hours a day training and the rest praying
i guess i could play world of 40k, but i'd even go for an inquisitor mmo with no races i want to play as long as the background was more fun
The tabletop game doesn't stay consistent with the background either, so I don't see why its such a stretch for them to do the same with a video game.
because in tabletop terms it balances out because it takes ten space marines to kill thirty imperial guardsmen, whereas in game terms you're asking for one space marine to kill one guardsman, otherwise it becomes hideously unfair for the guard player
at which point there's basically point in playing a space marine at all; not to mention space marines spend like 15 hours a day training and the rest praying
i guess i could play world of 40k, but i'd even go for an inquisitor mmo with no races i want to play as long as the background was more fun
Not to mention that even in basic 40k TT terms, a space marine, being the basic grunt trooper of a space marine army, will rape the shit out of any other basic grunt trooper on a one-to-one level, and in many cases, beyond.
With, of course, the exception of Chaos Marines, and those godawful blights on the ruleset, the Necron.
The thing is though, Space Marines take up a bulk of the army list. As basic grunts they are incredibly strong, but as you go through the higher tiers you still see marines, whereareas in other armies there are some very tough units.
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UtsanomikoBros before DoesRollin' in the thlayRegistered Userregular
edited March 2007
The amount of concessions the tabletop game makes is a red herring, since a multiplayer 1-on-1 character vs character game would only have far more of them.
For the record I do think GW needs to get some balls and revamp Space Marines next edition into something less 'generic armored military man that every kid wants to be' ala 1st Edition and more baroquely gothic warrior-monk with models that are 85mm tall, fits on a 40mm base, and is a minimum of 30 points. Guardsmen, Arbitrators and Battle Sisters versus heretics and Orks need more attention and focus.
But anyhow, I don't see why the game has to be faction vs faction anyway. Why? Because Wow and everyone else does? I mean really.
The thing is though, Space Marines take up a bulk of the army list. As basic grunts they are incredibly strong, but as you go through the higher tiers you still see marines, whereareas in other armies there are some very tough units.
Yeah, but those tend to be completely different races or strains than the main body of the army. IG stay at strength 3 no matter how high their rank is; they get mutant Ogryns to do the melee stuff. An Autarch will die as easily to a single assault-cannon shot as a Guardian, and if they want to do better they kinda need to actually be dead. Everyone usually uses technological or psychic methods to bring their units up to snuff.
There are exceptions, of course. CSM get stronger through chaos mutations and whatnot (usually at the cost of being sentient), Orks are always getting bigger. And, well, Tyranids.
For the record I do think GW needs to get some balls and revamp Space Marines next edition into something less 'generic armored military man that every kid wants to be' ala 1st Edition and more baroquely gothic warrior-monk with models that are 85mm tall, fits on a 40mm base, and is a minimum of 30 points. Guardsmen, Arbitrators and Battle Sisters versus heretics and Orks need more attention and focus.
As much as I would love this, it will never happen. Too many people playing Marines these days to go about making big changes. But I guess this isn't really on topic >>.
Everyone will probably be playing one of the "hero" type classes, or one of the upgraded unit types.
You wouldn't all just be base units. Except maybe at level 1.
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UtsanomikoBros before DoesRollin' in the thlayRegistered Userregular
edited March 2007
Gigilo: Nonsense, they'll all just buy new models, just like they upgraded from all the dumpy sculpts to late-90s models that actually look like bare-bones version of the units in the artwork. Especially if they're Space Marines, who let's be honest half of all models sold are Marines despite not getting an actual resculpt since 1999.
Whoa, I just remembered what this thread reminds me of: the 'new Blizzard MMORPG rumor' thread, namely suggestions of Starcraft ans an MMO.
A StarCraft MMO entirely different from WoW would in my mind be a complete blend of RTS and MMO, where the player controls their own military force, moves into a region, battles for resources and territory, and packs things up to return to their permanent bases when they either take over the region and its resources or are forced to retreat by the opposition.
Much like the design for Sovereign.
I can see WAR working the way they've demonstrated it, with characters building up in battle skill by doing work for the 'war effort', but 40k has been a different sort of bird for a while, with recent stuff focusing on a larger, more detached scope of the galaxy than the lives of individual groups of adventurers and traders. And I'm positive a 40k MMO will focus on the later, capitalizing on the popularity of Marines and other elite armies, which means a high-end combat-intense gameplay style (from beginning to end, little upgrades from 'leveling') for it to be coherent or notably successful.
That makes we also wonder why it even needs factions *or* leveling like everyone else. Why start as weakling humans or grotz when everyone's just grinding towards Space Marine for their 'actual' gameplay?
The thought makes me wish they'd combine elements of Inquisitor, Necromunda, and Rogue Trader into a new & refined, background-intense, team-based tabletop skirmish game, sticking to 28mm for conversion possibilities. Hrmm...
Edit: because I typed too fast to catch bad typos.
This needs to be quoted for truth, emphasis, and also limed and made into a large font.
Man...
MAN!
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Just_Bri_ThanksSeething with ragefrom a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPAregular
edited March 2007
I was refering to the concept that in that setting, and individual is worse than expendable. An individual has no value at all other than what they can do for the imperium, as an example. Whole planatary populations can be wiped at the whim of an Inquisitor.
Space Marines have no life other than training for war and then fighting those wars. Independant thought is a crime punishable by execution. To be on the safe side, they might just kill everyone you have talked to for the last six months.
I would have a hard time envisioning a more wretched existance.
Just_Bri_Thanks on
...and when you are done with that; take a folding
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
I was refering to the concept that in that setting, and individual is worse than expendable. An individual has no value at all other than what they can do for the imperium, as an example. Whole planatary populations can be wiped at the whim of an Inquisitor.
Space Marines have no life other than training for war and then fighting those wars. Independant thought is a crime punishable by execution. To be on the safe side, they might just kill everyone you have talked to for the last six months.
I would have a hard time envisioning a more wretched existance.
40k is the opposite of escapist fantasy. It makes even the shittiest modern life seem golden.
I was refering to the concept that in that setting, and individual is worse than expendable. An individual has no value at all other than what they can do for the imperium, as an example. Whole planatary populations can be wiped at the whim of an Inquisitor.
Space Marines have no life other than training for war and then fighting those wars. Independant thought is a crime punishable by execution. To be on the safe side, they might just kill everyone you have talked to for the last six months.
I would have a hard time envisioning a more wretched existance.
40k is the opposite of escapist fantasy. It makes even the shittiest modern life seem golden.
Personally I think it's hands down probably one of the bleakest fictional settings in existence...
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Der Waffle MousBlame this on the misfortune of your birth.New Yark, New Yark.Registered Userregular
I was refering to the concept that in that setting, and individual is worse than expendable. An individual has no value at all other than what they can do for the imperium, as an example. Whole planatary populations can be wiped at the whim of an Inquisitor.
Space Marines have no life other than training for war and then fighting those wars. Independant thought is a crime punishable by execution. To be on the safe side, they might just kill everyone you have talked to for the last six months.
I would have a hard time envisioning a more wretched existance.
40k is the opposite of escapist fantasy. It makes even the shittiest modern life seem golden.
Personally I think it's hands down probably one of the bleakest fictional settings in existence...
DoW is also an RTS, though. A lot closer to a tabletop war game than an MMORPG would be.
What I meant was 6 space marines can beat 10 guardsmen or whatever, but something something the races are all basically equal on all grounds without people bitching.
Posts
this is why i said they wont even bother; they'll just homogenise everything by forcing you to become and inquisitor and decide who you fight by getting you to pick an inquisitorial style
there are too many races for it to work as a game
I hate to say it, but I totally agree.
Not at all quite like that, but the tabletop game does make a compromise by balancing Marines to only half as costly as a veteran guardsmen. They're eight half feet of ceramic bones and extra redundant organs, they don't bleed, don't need to sleep, don't get poisoned, diseased, or fatigued, can gnaw through iron, punch a man's head off, and maintain 50-to-1 kill ratios.
And there's about one million of them for one million worlds in the Imperium. You have a game that involves obtaining induction into an Astartes Chapter you'll need to center half the game around it, because almost everyone will want to do it. Sony didn't realize that when they included Jedi in SW:G and thus the game became incoherent in focus, which made them revamp huge parts of the game and lose most of their player base. I don't see Space Marines bing inclusive with all the other things want to see in an online 40k world, like Rogue Traders and Eldar.
Maybe if the game involved controlling individual squads or small warbands, like a 30-man Guard platoon vs five Marines. But I think We'll get a WAR/WoW clone with Marines LFGing quests sooner than that.
Yes.
Im just glad to know that I will be playing at least 2 more MMOs in my life.
Oh jesus christ, why an ecosystem?
Space Marines don't waste their time shooting animals.
Catachans on the other hand...
I'm hoping for something on the vein of Planetside's certification system.
You know, I take objection to you saying that the way they are depicted in Inquisition is more canon than they way they are depicted in 40K. Inquisition is a part of the Specialist line, which is not even close to being canon in the way that the core game is. Now, 1st company? That's a different story. But even then, they aren't really any scarier than a mega armored 'Nob or an Exarch.
Space Marines are supposed to be dead 'ard. Like, as tough as an Ork 'Nob, or an Eldar Aspect Warrior. They should be available, but only as a reward for Imperial players who choose to go that route. One good way of handling it would be to have the campaign take place on the Marines' Chapter World, and as Imperial players gain experience they can choose to "class up" to either a Marine conscript or take a commission with IG command.
There are ways of including Marines that stay true to canon, as long as you're careful about it. This is more than I can say for a game where everyone is a member of the Inquisition, which is so fucking ludicrous I don't know where to begin.
This game is either going to have to focus on a very select couple races and style of gaming or muddle everything by trying to appeal everyone, and thus be appealing to no one.
that would be an absolute slaughter
i doubt the guardsmen would even see them
That's the problem, the game would never work with a whole collection of races that includes the extreme range of races like Marines and Guardsmen, let alone everything in between. They'd have to muddle them all into near-identical levels of power. I'd much rather see Space Hulk online or loyalist Marine Chapters vs Chaos Legions than an incoherent mess of people grinding their way up to the highest 20% of ranks just to become a Marine.
to keep to the fluff the most accurately the only way i can see this working is an inquisitor mmo
Then I would suggest you stop trying, because it's getting old.
By your retarded definitions, Warhammer 40,000 itself isn't true to the canon.
- Space Marines are required to spend 90% of in-game time spamming "pray to gun", "pray to Emperor", and "contemplate killing Orks" emotes.
- Guardsman characters fight a Chaos mob, and are executed by the quest-giver for being exposed to the Dark Gods. Space Marine characters are mind-wiped and reset to their starting level or power.
- Eldar switch classes every ten levels, only one or two of which will be combat oriented. The rest of their career they'll be purely crafters, singers, poets, or gardeners. Also, they can be one-shotted by anything else in the game.
- Grey Knights can only be played in Chaos instances.
- Chaos characters must choose a god, and have their entire interface changed to allow only limited activities, like combat or cybering and taking in-game drugs.
- Inquisitors and Commissars are always PvP-enabled against allies, but cannot be attacked in return.
Or...
A Necromunda, Gorkamorka, or otherwise limited game where there are no Space Marines, everyone plays the same race, and your goddamn leader dies in the first room of any instance, every time.
In truth, I don't see how a 40k game can be done that both plays to the popular elements of the setting and doesn't rape the shit out of it. Also, 40k has been getting shittier for almost a decade now. It was better when things didn't make sense, madness was everywhere, and Dan Abnett wasn't turning it into a WWI drama in space.
but the only ones who will know about the problems, or make a fuss when they completely ignore and revamp the world are the hardcore 40k fans..and unfortunatly the hardcore 40k fanbase who would buy an authentic 40k MMO will be far surpassed by the masses who will go "OMG, ITS LIKE WoW WITH SOME WEIRD UNDEAD RACE! AND ORCS! (yes, they will say orcs with a C!) AND GIANT HUMAN MARINE GUYS, IN SPACE! BUY BUY BUY"
and its all about what'll make you more money
because in tabletop terms it balances out because it takes ten space marines to kill thirty imperial guardsmen, whereas in game terms you're asking for one space marine to kill one guardsman, otherwise it becomes hideously unfair for the guard player
at which point there's basically point in playing a space marine at all; not to mention space marines spend like 15 hours a day training and the rest praying
i guess i could play world of 40k, but i'd even go for an inquisitor mmo with no races i want to play as long as the background was more fun
Not to mention that even in basic 40k TT terms, a space marine, being the basic grunt trooper of a space marine army, will rape the shit out of any other basic grunt trooper on a one-to-one level, and in many cases, beyond.
With, of course, the exception of Chaos Marines, and those godawful blights on the ruleset, the Necron.
For the record I do think GW needs to get some balls and revamp Space Marines next edition into something less 'generic armored military man that every kid wants to be' ala 1st Edition and more baroquely gothic warrior-monk with models that are 85mm tall, fits on a 40mm base, and is a minimum of 30 points. Guardsmen, Arbitrators and Battle Sisters versus heretics and Orks need more attention and focus.
But anyhow, I don't see why the game has to be faction vs faction anyway. Why? Because Wow and everyone else does? I mean really.
Because I can't afford both.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
Yeah, but those tend to be completely different races or strains than the main body of the army. IG stay at strength 3 no matter how high their rank is; they get mutant Ogryns to do the melee stuff. An Autarch will die as easily to a single assault-cannon shot as a Guardian, and if they want to do better they kinda need to actually be dead. Everyone usually uses technological or psychic methods to bring their units up to snuff.
There are exceptions, of course. CSM get stronger through chaos mutations and whatnot (usually at the cost of being sentient), Orks are always getting bigger. And, well, Tyranids.
As much as I would love this, it will never happen. Too many people playing Marines these days to go about making big changes. But I guess this isn't really on topic >>.
Everyone will probably be playing one of the "hero" type classes, or one of the upgraded unit types.
You wouldn't all just be base units. Except maybe at level 1.
Whoa, I just remembered what this thread reminds me of: the 'new Blizzard MMORPG rumor' thread, namely suggestions of Starcraft ans an MMO.
I can see WAR working the way they've demonstrated it, with characters building up in battle skill by doing work for the 'war effort', but 40k has been a different sort of bird for a while, with recent stuff focusing on a larger, more detached scope of the galaxy than the lives of individual groups of adventurers and traders. And I'm positive a 40k MMO will focus on the later, capitalizing on the popularity of Marines and other elite armies, which means a high-end combat-intense gameplay style (from beginning to end, little upgrades from 'leveling') for it to be coherent or notably successful.
That makes we also wonder why it even needs factions *or* leveling like everyone else. Why start as weakling humans or grotz when everyone's just grinding towards Space Marine for their 'actual' gameplay?
The thought makes me wish they'd combine elements of Inquisitor, Necromunda, and Rogue Trader into a new & refined, background-intense, team-based tabletop skirmish game, sticking to 28mm for conversion possibilities. Hrmm...
Edit: because I typed too fast to catch bad typos.
This needs to be quoted for truth, emphasis, and also limed and made into a large font.
Man...
MAN!
Space Marines have no life other than training for war and then fighting those wars. Independant thought is a crime punishable by execution. To be on the safe side, they might just kill everyone you have talked to for the last six months.
I would have a hard time envisioning a more wretched existance.
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
40k is the opposite of escapist fantasy. It makes even the shittiest modern life seem golden.
how could you possibly represent something like a farseer in game terms though?
"i can see thousands of years into the future, kill armies with a stare and create a psychic storm to melt tanks
lf2m abaddon pst"
Hell, DoW balanced six races pretty well, forgiving bugs and whatnot.
We'd need something that involves either squads like DoW or only certain races pitted against ones on a similar scale.
Personally I think it's hands down probably one of the bleakest fictional settings in existence...
YES!
And for whatever reason, I love both.
Old 40k, at least.