ArchonexNo hard feelings, right?Registered Userregular
edited March 2007
There's actually a pretty good way to implement marines. Give them perma death, but don't start them out as full fledged Assault Marines or Terminators. Instead, start them out as an aspirant or a newbie marine (Ala DOW's scouts.). Aspirants really aren't anything special, they're basically just humans who train a fucking lot. I can't imagine that the scouts would be too tough either, as alot of the Marines strength comes from their enhancements and their armor. Also, the fact that a scout probably wouldn't be wielding a bolter also would keep their offensive capabilities more in line with the rest of the game as well.
At a certain level scouts/aspirants/neophytes/whatever could opt to go through gene therapy/whatever chapters rites of passage (IE the Blood Ravens last man standing arena thing depicted in the books.) depending on where they are in terms of genetic growth (IE Space marine or not.). Obviously this test would have to be difficult and might require the assistance of other Space Marine characters as you wouldn't want every schmuck to be able to turn into a super-human slaughter machine. Depending on the actual mechanics of the game it might actually take skill and a bit of time. After all, if the game uses pseudo/full FPS mechanics then the players ability to aim at a target will at least partially determine whether they have to start over with a new character or not.
Trouble with that sort of thing is that whatever type of game this is - it is going to be a game set in the 40K universe, not the most realistic simulation of what the universe of the 41st millenium is like. These sort of perma-death ideas are just like the Dragon ideas in that other MMO that is never going to get made (one with Dragons starting as hatchlings that everyone needed to kill for magic ingredients - can't remember the name). 40K is going to be an expensive license, they will want people to actually play this game.
Starting as a Scout is the best you'll get, if you want progression (if it is even that sort of game) but chances are marines will be toned down a little and other races and classes will be a little better, or not starting at the same level with the Codex as the marine does.
Tastyfish on
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Zen VulgarityWhat a lovely day for teaSecret British ThreadRegistered Userregular
edited March 2007
For once, I agree with Goomba in a thread without wanting to cave his head in for beating me in the game(yet).
Your comment came right at the end of the Space Marine balance discussion. If I mistook it, then sorry.
But still, the fluff is 40k.
Oh, I agree. I'm just saying that is can't possibly be an exact take on it just as DoW isn't. That doesn't mean it can't be a good take on the fluff adapted to a MMO, though.
I'd rather see something like ok the server starts up and people log in
Group A is all the people that logged in as IG
Group B is Space Marine
Group C is Chaos
Group D is Eldar
Group E is Orks
Until people start spending experience points to advance their leadership ranking and available special equipment tree, leaders are volunteer based, so say I want to be a regimental commander I better volunteer quick, ad if I suck at it the rest of my race can kick me.
But say I log on IG and volunteer in a command role. All the other commanders & I lay out organization and resource allotment from our cruisers up in orbit over a contested world. The other races do similiar actions, and each race, depending on what world the server spawned that day, would present each race in different starting predicaments.
So say the server starts up and loads an Imperial world. The IG players start already on the planet in entrenched positions, with a bonus to defense. They have more artillery availble to them & such, but have limited ability to reinforce new vehicles and will rely on tech priests for repairs to existing equipment.
Space Marines start out all located in a single Battlebarge and throughout the day drop down in squads to assist the IG defense and run special actions behind enemy lines. On this map they focus more on foot operations with bikes, speeders & such as their light vehicle options. Also assault marines.
Orks start out already on the ground around the IG bases with vehicle facilities available, and aren't so much worried about maintaing their ground as they are overrunning the IG.
Chaos starts out with multiple battlebarges in orbit, which allows them more points on the map to drop at, and can drop in larger numbers than the Space Marines and with more heavy vehicle options with which to push through the orcs and siege the IG bases.
For the Eldar, I don't know they can have a hidden craft world nearby and warp in in small groups and disrupt whichever other faction they choose.
Each race would have it's own victory conditions, as well as smaller goals in the battle throughout the day that if met will give bonus skillpoints to the whole race for that day. Skillpoints would be earned in battle according to things like following orders from your commanders, killing the enemy, repairing vehicles or reving fallen soldiers(Apothecaries anyone?) and such. SP would be spent to open up more advanced character options, optional equipment like power fist & such. Death on the battlefield would return you to your spawn point and cause a very small SP loss, so that people can't get access to the best unit types and equipment just by playing forever. They need to actually be good at the game and not die as much and be better at earning SP. Also not obeying commander orders would cause a very small SP loss, but like I said a bad commander can be voted out. Also, if say Chaos is totally dominating the map that day, the Space marines & Eldar might be presented with a temporary "Ally enemy" option that allows them to share channels, spawn points and form units to together to try to regain a foothold. Once they control enough of the map again the alliance options is removed and they return to enemy status.
At downtime, the dev team would look at which races have met their victory conditions, total kills, objectives met and determine if any one side seems to have truely won the fight. If so, that race gets bonus SP for the victory, and at server up a new map is loaded which puts each race in different positions. If they decide that there is no clear victor, then the fight continues on another day, with no fights lasting longer than two days before a new map is loaded.
I don't really understand why people are dismissing an Inquisitor MMO offhand to pursue crazy concepts for some kind of squad-based tactical MMO shooter. A game type which I think would be much better suited to - get this - a squad-based tactical shooter.
Rather than butcher two concepts to make a single one, why not just have them distinct? The deal extends beyond just MMO rights.
Your comment came right at the end of the Space Marine balance discussion. If I mistook it, then sorry.
But still, the fluff is 40k.
Oh, I agree. I'm just saying that is can't possibly be an exact take on it just as DoW isn't. That doesn't mean it can't be a good take on the fluff adapted to a MMO, though.
Oh I know. My pessemism is over the roughly %95 chance that it's going to be "Warcrafthammer 40k Online" just to appeal to the "ZOMG SPACE MARINES!" crowd because it's the easiest thing to do and the easiest thing to market.
And about a %5 chance they could do something that could be amazing.
I don't know about anyone else, but I want to be an Imperial Guard (preferably Cadian). First of all, those uniforms look totally bad ass. Second, I want to pew pew some greenskins and some of those pansy ass Eldar with my lasgun. And third, seriously, why would I want to be a steroid-amp'd Space Marine? Wearing a giant suit of armor all day? Not getting to copulate? That doesn't sound very cool at all.
MiSTieOtaku on
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Der Waffle MousBlame this on the misfortune of your birth.New Yark, New Yark.Registered Userregular
I still say NPC fodder. That way 1 IG/Ork/Chaos cultist has a couple of warm bodies around them to add firepower (and to a limited extent hitpoints against other NPCs) while the spacemarines can still kick a whole lot of ass.
Plus, what is more intense:
a) going 1on1 with a space marine as an imperial guard.
b) knowing that you and all your guard friends are toast because that CSM is level 60 and you are only level 10.
c) never actually seeing a CSM untill you hit level 60 and get acces to the next server
D) Standing in a trench trying to shoot as many things as possible while keeping your squad from breaking in the face of the xenos so that you can hold your position untill your friend in the Russ arrives.
I mean the player is still much better then the NPC fodder and in the center but it would balance things out and make the game different and actually worth playing as anything but a marine.
Also in my version you could switch races daily, it's just that any SP you earn as a member of one race doesn't transfer to any other races. So if you are a really badass Assault Marine but now you want to play as an Ork you start out as a regular old nub choppah
Weaver on
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Zen VulgarityWhat a lovely day for teaSecret British ThreadRegistered Userregular
UtsanomikoBros before DoesRollin' in the thlayRegistered Userregular
edited March 2007
I'm pretty much done discussing THQ's project itself until we know what's their planned direction. Right now everyone's throwing around 5 different desired genres, three different scopes of playable races (Imperium-only, Marines vs other big guys, everyone iconic), and two extreme opposite ends of vague interpretation of their limited knowledge and perception of 40k background (I'd suggest it's chiefly pulp novels, 3rd ed rulebooks, and the pretty-but-stupid DoW opening vid, but that's presumptuous.). It could be any one of those or something wholly different, but right now lots of WH40k games are being discussed but none of them are THQ's.
I'm still thinking either the game needs to focus on just Marines battling a few other types of 'other big guys' (Genestealers, Necrons, Tyranid Warriors, Orks, Eldar Aspects, and perhaps Battle Sisters could likely be reasonably tweaked) like some kind of Space Hulk, or combat needs to take a back seat compared to most MMOs, omitting the competitive functions and faction-centric overworld warfare that would make 90% Marine populace horribly glaring.
I'm thinking in terms like it would be limited to instanced theaters of warfare with population caps and NPCs thrown in for good measure, where each faction/army type has their own goals and scale of combat; A Tau player (whether he's a basic grunt or a veteran with his own Crisis Suit) joins and is ordered to help a bunch of Firewarrior PCs and NPCs attack a frontline, a Guardsmen player group defend the line or man the artillery (vets might have bigger jobs, an officer might command a tank), A marine blitzes a bunker, Eldar Fire Dragons takes on the vehicles, Howling Banshees gang up on Marines, etc.
At the end of the battle, everyone tallies up their kills and achievements according to their roles. A Marine kills 10 Guardsmen and it's not much for his record, a Tau kills that many and he gets mad xp or honors. A Dark Reaper kills 10 and he should have been focusing on their damn Leman Russ tanks.
Now I'm going to say some mean things about people's knowledge of background. It is not constructive and you probably shouldn't read it.
But honestly, the 'background' talk here is absurd, I'm glad 1000-1 kill ratios and 'fluff=propaganda' aren't touted down in ODAM. A Marine is by all purposes a 10-year old boy transformed into a monster with a head full of zealotry and tactical scripture. It's not a soldier, it's not Superman, it's not a just an armored muscle man to support the Guard like a Stormtrooper, it doesn't hold ground or capture whole war theaters with 100-man Companies. Don't trivialize 40k into some relateable 'Gothic Star Wars' adventure; not to suggest that's a lame or sub-par thing, it simply doesn't function that way.
Tribes + Planetside + Battlefield 2 - all the broken shit that didn't work + non-grindable experience system with penalties for failure = awesome 40K MMO
oh god you know no matter how the game ends up there is going to be some flaming idiot who is going to ask for player homes so he can go play Imperial home decorator
Load me up on some liquors, I go straight to Chaos laughing the whole way through burning the map
I'm an IG player myself, since I like having "normal" grunts facing off against the worst that the WH40k universe has to offer. As soon as I get shitfaced though I turn into an Ork player for some reason.
Whenever I play this, I'm going play as a Space Marine, but roleplay like I'm a Eldar Deathjester who earned his place in the Marines. Also, I'll have a pet squigg named Khorny, and a gretchin sidekick.
Whenever I play this, I'm going play as a Space Marine, but roleplay like I'm a Eldar Deathjester who earned his place in the Marines. Also, I'll have a pet squigg named Khorny, and a gretchin sidekick.
Whenever I play this, I'm going play as a Space Marine, but roleplay like I'm a Eldar Deathjester who earned his place in the Marines. Also, I'll have a pet squigg named Khorny, and a gretchin sidekick.
Just to piss all you nerds off.
Big words to post on a gaming forum.
Here is a completely random post I found of Hambones from another thread.
Re: [EVE ON] EVE: Down with Dev-Swarm
Seems like Amarr would be more susceptible to E-War, too, relying so much on turrets.
Caldari and Minmatar can spam missiles if their turrets get disrupted, or FoF missiles if they get jammed....
One of the nice things about Marines is that every chapter has its own rules about how and when initiates are chosen to undergo the trials to have their geneseed implanted. Many chapters adhere strictly to the Codex Astartes, but many do not. If you allow the game to take place on a Chapter world, then it wouldn't be unreasonable for distinguished members of the IG to be offered the chance to undergo these trials once they are experienced enough. The game just needs to have prestige classes.
Ah, now that's a very good point. As petty-minded as it sounds, I wouldn't oppose Marines as long as they actually stuck to something that at least resembles their training procedure.
One thing that occurs: you get a Space Marine character? He can die permanently, as suggested, because he's actually a secondary character that you've unlocked through your primary character's prowess: it's just that be bears a striking statistical resemblance to the character you used to win him.
I'm a Level 68 Inquisitor? Holy fuck I can now play with this SM. People run when they see me. They fake modem death.
Except that asshat with the mastercrafted heavy bolter and Terminator armour. I mean, WTF. We're meant to be on the same side!
PvE could work, but I wouldn't mind PvP as long as it wasn't really dumb. Oh, and no alliances that bypassed rivalries. I mean, they could happen. But some things, like a party/squad consisting of Chaos allying with a couple of Eldar and some Grey Knights would just cause various nerds to rupture. Violently.
Never said I wasn't, but you gotta admit, the hand-wringing nerd rage in this thread is astounding.
But the fluff is all 40k has for it. Take away the fluff and it is literally Warhammer in space. What's the point in that with WHO coming out very soon and a similar game already dominating the market (WoW)
If they abandon the fluff, the game has nothing going for it. Keep the fluff and stay true to the fluff and it should be great.
Posts
At a certain level scouts/aspirants/neophytes/whatever could opt to go through gene therapy/whatever chapters rites of passage (IE the Blood Ravens last man standing arena thing depicted in the books.) depending on where they are in terms of genetic growth (IE Space marine or not.). Obviously this test would have to be difficult and might require the assistance of other Space Marine characters as you wouldn't want every schmuck to be able to turn into a super-human slaughter machine. Depending on the actual mechanics of the game it might actually take skill and a bit of time. After all, if the game uses pseudo/full FPS mechanics then the players ability to aim at a target will at least partially determine whether they have to start over with a new character or not.
Starting as a Scout is the best you'll get, if you want progression (if it is even that sort of game) but chances are marines will be toned down a little and other races and classes will be a little better, or not starting at the same level with the Codex as the marine does.
Group A is all the people that logged in as IG
Group B is Space Marine
Group C is Chaos
Group D is Eldar
Group E is Orks
Until people start spending experience points to advance their leadership ranking and available special equipment tree, leaders are volunteer based, so say I want to be a regimental commander I better volunteer quick, ad if I suck at it the rest of my race can kick me.
But say I log on IG and volunteer in a command role. All the other commanders & I lay out organization and resource allotment from our cruisers up in orbit over a contested world. The other races do similiar actions, and each race, depending on what world the server spawned that day, would present each race in different starting predicaments.
So say the server starts up and loads an Imperial world. The IG players start already on the planet in entrenched positions, with a bonus to defense. They have more artillery availble to them & such, but have limited ability to reinforce new vehicles and will rely on tech priests for repairs to existing equipment.
Space Marines start out all located in a single Battlebarge and throughout the day drop down in squads to assist the IG defense and run special actions behind enemy lines. On this map they focus more on foot operations with bikes, speeders & such as their light vehicle options. Also assault marines.
Orks start out already on the ground around the IG bases with vehicle facilities available, and aren't so much worried about maintaing their ground as they are overrunning the IG.
Chaos starts out with multiple battlebarges in orbit, which allows them more points on the map to drop at, and can drop in larger numbers than the Space Marines and with more heavy vehicle options with which to push through the orcs and siege the IG bases.
For the Eldar, I don't know they can have a hidden craft world nearby and warp in in small groups and disrupt whichever other faction they choose.
Each race would have it's own victory conditions, as well as smaller goals in the battle throughout the day that if met will give bonus skillpoints to the whole race for that day. Skillpoints would be earned in battle according to things like following orders from your commanders, killing the enemy, repairing vehicles or reving fallen soldiers(Apothecaries anyone?) and such. SP would be spent to open up more advanced character options, optional equipment like power fist & such. Death on the battlefield would return you to your spawn point and cause a very small SP loss, so that people can't get access to the best unit types and equipment just by playing forever. They need to actually be good at the game and not die as much and be better at earning SP. Also not obeying commander orders would cause a very small SP loss, but like I said a bad commander can be voted out. Also, if say Chaos is totally dominating the map that day, the Space marines & Eldar might be presented with a temporary "Ally enemy" option that allows them to share channels, spawn points and form units to together to try to regain a foothold. Once they control enough of the map again the alliance options is removed and they return to enemy status.
At downtime, the dev team would look at which races have met their victory conditions, total kills, objectives met and determine if any one side seems to have truely won the fight. If so, that race gets bonus SP for the victory, and at server up a new map is loaded which puts each race in different positions. If they decide that there is no clear victor, then the fight continues on another day, with no fights lasting longer than two days before a new map is loaded.
Rather than butcher two concepts to make a single one, why not just have them distinct? The deal extends beyond just MMO rights.
And about a %5 chance they could do something that could be amazing.
at least weaver has his Jean Reno avatar going for him.
you're this guy.
"In the 41st millenia, there is only war."
not hanging around town chatting with people or grinding skills
war
WAR
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!
Plus, what is more intense:
a) going 1on1 with a space marine as an imperial guard.
b) knowing that you and all your guard friends are toast because that CSM is level 60 and you are only level 10.
c) never actually seeing a CSM untill you hit level 60 and get acces to the next server
D) Standing in a trench trying to shoot as many things as possible while keeping your squad from breaking in the face of the xenos so that you can hold your position untill your friend in the Russ arrives.
I mean the player is still much better then the NPC fodder and in the center but it would balance things out and make the game different and actually worth playing as anything but a marine.
all i know is that i really want to know what the game is going to be like
dats orky
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. "
I'm still thinking either the game needs to focus on just Marines battling a few other types of 'other big guys' (Genestealers, Necrons, Tyranid Warriors, Orks, Eldar Aspects, and perhaps Battle Sisters could likely be reasonably tweaked) like some kind of Space Hulk, or combat needs to take a back seat compared to most MMOs, omitting the competitive functions and faction-centric overworld warfare that would make 90% Marine populace horribly glaring.
I'm thinking in terms like it would be limited to instanced theaters of warfare with population caps and NPCs thrown in for good measure, where each faction/army type has their own goals and scale of combat; A Tau player (whether he's a basic grunt or a veteran with his own Crisis Suit) joins and is ordered to help a bunch of Firewarrior PCs and NPCs attack a frontline, a Guardsmen player group defend the line or man the artillery (vets might have bigger jobs, an officer might command a tank), A marine blitzes a bunker, Eldar Fire Dragons takes on the vehicles, Howling Banshees gang up on Marines, etc.
At the end of the battle, everyone tallies up their kills and achievements according to their roles. A Marine kills 10 Guardsmen and it's not much for his record, a Tau kills that many and he gets mad xp or honors. A Dark Reaper kills 10 and he should have been focusing on their damn Leman Russ tanks.
Now I'm going to say some mean things about people's knowledge of background. It is not constructive and you probably shouldn't read it.
It's stuck in my head now
When sober, I play IG or space marines
Load me up on some liquors, I go straight to Chaos laughing the whole way through burning the map
Just to piss all you nerds off.
Here is a completely random post I found of Hambones from another thread.
Re: [EVE ON] EVE: Down with Dev-Swarm
Seems like Amarr would be more susceptible to E-War, too, relying so much on turrets.
Caldari and Minmatar can spam missiles if their turrets get disrupted, or FoF missiles if they get jammed....
Yeah, he's totally not a nerd either.
Gold, and very accurately sums up my feelings about this game
Never said I wasn't, but you gotta admit, the hand-wringing nerd rage in this thread is astounding.
The fluff for the 40k universe is very rich and the dedication an average player has is far greater than any normal video game.
So, really, I understand it. I think people are being a little bit too DOOOOOOMish though.
Ah, now that's a very good point. As petty-minded as it sounds, I wouldn't oppose Marines as long as they actually stuck to something that at least resembles their training procedure.
One thing that occurs: you get a Space Marine character? He can die permanently, as suggested, because he's actually a secondary character that you've unlocked through your primary character's prowess: it's just that be bears a striking statistical resemblance to the character you used to win him.
I'm a Level 68 Inquisitor? Holy fuck I can now play with this SM. People run when they see me. They fake modem death.
Except that asshat with the mastercrafted heavy bolter and Terminator armour. I mean, WTF. We're meant to be on the same side!
PvE could work, but I wouldn't mind PvP as long as it wasn't really dumb. Oh, and no alliances that bypassed rivalries. I mean, they could happen. But some things, like a party/squad consisting of Chaos allying with a couple of Eldar and some Grey Knights would just cause various nerds to rupture. Violently.
But the fluff is all 40k has for it. Take away the fluff and it is literally Warhammer in space. What's the point in that with WHO coming out very soon and a similar game already dominating the market (WoW)
If they abandon the fluff, the game has nothing going for it. Keep the fluff and stay true to the fluff and it should be great.