Im pretty sure Metro isnt for me (Im not exactly sure who its for to be honest); I can see how it would be really nice on a tablet or something with a touch interface, but as a desktop OS Windows 8 seems pretty meh. So far it isnt enough to warrant upgrading from Windows 7.
Its not all bad though, I like the pause file transfers thing, I like the native ISO mounting, and I like the Up thing on folders. I think the ribbon thing a la Office 2007 can be useful, but I think its ugly.
Honestly, I think I could get excited about Windows 8 if it looked something like this and didnt have Metro.
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
After getting a chance to play with Win8 on a Samsung Slate, I have to say that Win8 is an amazing touchscreen UI. Astounding. Best in class.
As a desktop UI, it leaves something to be desired. I'm not a huge fan on the mouse travel distances and clicks, but I'm also not quite as dramatic as some of the people in this thread. Oh, by the way, arrow keys scroll the start menu.
I really like the way metro looks. I just wish the whole thing would be separated into 'this is the OS for desktop users, with metro styling' and 'this is the metro OS for touchscreen devices' rather than just lumped together.
KadokenGiving Ends to my Friends and it Feels StupendousRegistered Userregular
The metro looks ugly, irritating to use, and looks unsuited as a feature for an OS for a desktop. Please tell me I can just keep the normal look? This shit belongs on tablets and phones, not desktops.
Is it just me or is the only way to close a metro app from inside the app itself ctrl+f4? Because that seems kind of crazy.
(Assuming you meant Alt-F4?)
You can close Metro apps by moving your mouse to the very top of the screen, clicking, then dragging all the way down to the bottom - the mouse turns into a hand when you can "grab" the app to do this. At first I was in agreement that it felt very much like a tablet way of doing things shoe-horned in, but I've found it's actually really quick to do with the mouse: just flick up, click (and hold), and flick down.
Plus, it's almost like an extension of what Aero Snap already does.
That's a massive backslide from the classic UI though. With a mouse there are 5 places you can always reliably hit quickly and without effort. Running a fullscreen app, 3 of those are: window close, the app menu & the start menu. In win7 the 4th is show desktop. Top of screen -> click -> drag -> bottom of screen is much harder than top-right -> click. From what I've seen it's perfect for a touch interface, but things that are trivial with one input method (hitting specific points, dragging, swipes, multi-input) are often difficult with another input method, and vice versa (hitting all the corners instantly)
If you don't like the way Metro apps use the interface then... don't run Metro apps? I mean, the only Metro apps I intend to use on the desktop are ones with useful live tiles.
How do you switch between multiple mail accounts in the Windows 8 mail client? I've got the hotmail account from my Windows sign-in and also my Gmail account setup in the client but I can't figure out how to switch back and forth between the two within the client.
Thoughts?
Edit: Figured it out. You have to right-click in the mail window to bring up the mail menu bar at the bottom of the screen.
Is it just me or is the only way to close a metro app from inside the app itself ctrl+f4? Because that seems kind of crazy.
(Assuming you meant Alt-F4?)
You can close Metro apps by moving your mouse to the very top of the screen, clicking, then dragging all the way down to the bottom - the mouse turns into a hand when you can "grab" the app to do this. At first I was in agreement that it felt very much like a tablet way of doing things shoe-horned in, but I've found it's actually really quick to do with the mouse: just flick up, click (and hold), and flick down.
Plus, it's almost like an extension of what Aero Snap already does.
That's a massive backslide from the classic UI though. With a mouse there are 5 places you can always reliably hit quickly and without effort. Running a fullscreen app, 3 of those are: window close, the app menu & the start menu. In win7 the 4th is show desktop. Top of screen -> click -> drag -> bottom of screen is much harder than top-right -> click. From what I've seen it's perfect for a touch interface, but things that are trivial with one input method (hitting specific points, dragging, swipes, multi-input) are often difficult with another input method, and vice versa (hitting all the corners instantly)
I figured out the whole drag down to close thing by accident and I kind of liked it. Kind of. On my 15" laptop. I can't imagine doing that stuff on a regular basis on a 25" monitor. Or really anything but a touch screen.
Overall, I liked the metro interface and apps, and definitely see a market for that tablet that docks to a keyboard and becomes a laptop thing. But as for Microsofts user base (giant mega corps with 10k+ desktops), that metro crap won't fly. Get rid of the Start Button? It's been 5 years and people still bitch about the ribbon. I personally like it, I'm not a huge office document type of person, but I can say the ribbon definitely made things much easier for me. Don't see the point of it in explorer, I'm a fan of minimalism in the OS functions.
So yeah, I'm in the "fine for tablets and phones" camp.
PSN/Steam - Quantux
0
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
I think the classic Desktop UI will be fleshed out more by RC1. Apparently the improvements between the CP and developer release were enormous and far-reaching (Something along the line of 100,000 tweaks, fixes, and changes). I have no doubt that Microsoft will be listening to their customer base, as well as their biggest sector in business.
I still think W8's UI for tablets is second-to-none.
The Windows 8 Consumer Preview is available and has taken the Windows interface to a whole new level. Unfortunately, the preview did not come with a desktop feature that the world makes use of billions times a day, the “Start” menu. Luckily, we have a solution!
Start8 brings the “Start” menu back to Windows 8. This product is free and is available now! Enter your email address below to receive a download link.
Features
- Adds a “Start” menu to the Windows 8 taskbar
- Enables quick access and searching of your installed applications
- Adds Run... option via right-click menu
- Adds Shutdown... option via right-click menu
- Choose a custom Start button image
System requirements
- Windows 8 Consumer Preview
I wonder how many people are downloading this. By the numbers heavy Start menu users are a minority, I suspect it's a small (and vocal) minority. Still, twenty-something percent of Windows users may be a minority... but that's still millions of users, easily.
edit: compared to Pirillo's OS X video, I think this is a bit skewed. That doesn't overshadow the very real discovery issues in the beta.
Morskittar on
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syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Productsregular
When you start up a windows 8 computer for the first time, there better be tons of easily accessible tutorials for people that they are crafting right now, with voice, video, interaction, etc.
This is such a radical departure from the norm that they are going to have to educate.
SW-4158-3990-6116
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
0
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Having read through this thread, and watching that video, it certainly seems that this is a case of putting the cart before the horse.
That video shows what most people in that age group look like using a computer, period.
You're right. It's just those silly old people who don't know that throwing the mouse into an unmarked corner does something. All us young people don't need to see things to use them. In fact, I don't have a monitor because i'm so young. I just know where everything is.
yeah old people totally figured out Windows 98 by themselves
they were not told how anything worked at all
just poof, they dropped a 60 year old in a room with a Compaq Presario and he immediately knew how to get to Solitaire
sadly some idiot at Microsoft will see this and they'll hold a 17 hour meeting to figure out what went wrong, even though nothing went wrong, the internet is just loaded with petulance
that there is a hot corner to activate the menu screen is pretty low on microsofts list of things to improve, I offer
Just because the video is ridiculous doesn't mean there aren't real discoverability issues with the beta.
That's the beauty of it being a beta.
This video was done in a spiteful and sort of dickish manner.
But despite the tone, it highlights a real problem.
One my dad, my mom, and an ungodly number of people I support in my line of work is going to have unless Microsoft invests some serious effort into getting people educated by the Operating system as they use it.
I'm not asking for the return of Clippy here, but a little intro like the one OSX has when you boot up lion that explains that scrolling is now fundamentally different will suffice here. Just a quick little "you can't skip me and you need to pay attention to me for 45 seconds as I point out the big differences"
SW-4158-3990-6116
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
While the demographic represented by the gentleman in the video is hardly known for their technological savvy in general, it's true, the fact is that anybody could spend an indefinite amount of time using the preview as it's currently set up and never realize that hot corner was there. There is no clue of any kind that's there unless you happen to move your mouse pointer into an area you're unlikely to have a reason to move it to and notice that the pointer changes for a split-second if you happen to hit the sweet spot.
I used the preview for 2-3 hours without ever realizing that hot corner was there. I never did find it on my own, I read that it was there. And I am not a gray-haired retiree; I guess you guys are just going to have to trust me on that one, but it's the truth. I was using the windows start button on my keyboard to switch back to the Metro home screen whenever I wanted to (which, granted, was not often).
But despite the tone, it highlights a real problem.
One my dad, my mom, and an ungodly number of people I support in my line of work is going to have unless Microsoft invests some serious effort into getting people educated by the Operating system as they use it.
I'm not asking for the return of Clippy here, but a little intro like the one OSX has when you boot up lion that explains that scrolling is now fundamentally different will suffice here. Just a quick little "you can't skip me and you need to pay attention to me for 45 seconds as I point out the big differences"
It's also a problem that a washed-out/faded icon could fix, especially if it comes up when you scroll the mouse or move your finger across the screen.
On the other hand, it's also a problem that no user interface can overcome without someone showing you how it works. Not just hot corners, but computing in general. My friends grandmother would yell "INTERNET" into the webcam then click START because she thought that's how you made programs start. Despite most companies best efforts, computing is not an entirely intuitive experience. Sit a person unfamiliar with computers but a bit comfortable with Windows 7 down in front of OSX or Ubuntu and then not tell them shit and have them "figure it out for themselves" and I'm sure the results would be similar. Does that mean OSX and Ubuntu are also bad operating systems?
Also, take someone who is intimately familiar with computers and software, but only software from Microsoft. Have them try to use Linux command line prompts.
I fully expect the actual release version of Windows 8 will become a bit more cohesive and a lot more user friendly, whether it be from prompts or the return of Clippy as your guide through this new OS. I'm also fully expecting Windows 7 to be the choice for non-touchscreen computers for quite a few years, or (worst case scenario) until Windows 9.
I personally find Win8 pretty slick, and find it much more keyboard useable (And as a consequence of this, fast as fuck) than Win7, but for the sake of the wife and kids I'm going to keep Win8 on the slate I'm picking up later this year and make the move as we acquire all touchscreen devices.
jungleroomx on
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Also, to those complaining about mouse travel distance in scrolling...
This is a beta. They're probably not focusing on pushing the tutorials to the beta build right now. Not before they have the interface locked down. Making tutorials that are going to be changed for release waste resources.
This is a beta. They're probably not focusing on pushing the tutorials to the beta build right now. Not before they have the interface locked down. Making tutorials that are going to be changed for release waste resources.
Absolutely - all this is showing is that some reeducation will most definitely be in order.
I fully expect Microsoft to do that, however, because they have been pretty good about explaining how to use Metro on their current Metro offerings (360, Phone).
It's just that Windows has a much, MUCH larger userbase that is far less tech savvy, and they are going to really hold their hand a bit either through visual cues or tutorials. The beta is clearly showcasing that.
SW-4158-3990-6116
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
I don't well understand the focus on the Win8 desktop experience.
Some statistics courtesy of Gartner/IDC.
2009
1 million tablets (presumably MS owned the market here as this is pre-iPad/android)
306 million PCs
0.3% of PC market
2010
19.4 million tablets
308 million PCs
6.3% of PC market
Gross PC sales increased 0.7%, removing tablets PC sales would've declined 5.7% to 288.6 million units.
2011
68.7 million tablets
351 million PCs
19.6% of PC market
Gross PC sales increased 14%, removing tablets PC sales would've declined another 2.2% to 282.3 million units.
2012 (proj)
106 million tablets
370 million PCs
28.6% of PC market
Gross PC sales increased 5.4%, removing tablets PC sales would've declined another 6.5% to 264 million units.
Assuming non-tablet PC sales stagnate or remain flat and tablet PCs continue its trend it's very possible that tablet PC sales will exceed non-tablet PC sales by 2015.
Non-tablet market share is irrelevant for the Windows 6.2 release; their objective is to become relevant in a space where they hardly exist right now. Does anyone really think the release of Win8 is to address this, and not this and maybe this?
I've been using an x64 tablet as a primary device for months. The same exact login on the same OS as a full desktop that I can pull off the dock and hand to someone easily on the other side of the office to look at a report. That's also the device I use for chatting and web surfing at home. Spectacular. Consoles and my phone have become my only other main devices.
Posts
Its not all bad though, I like the pause file transfers thing, I like the native ISO mounting, and I like the Up thing on folders. I think the ribbon thing a la Office 2007 can be useful, but I think its ugly.
Honestly, I think I could get excited about Windows 8 if it looked something like this and didnt have Metro.
As a desktop UI, it leaves something to be desired. I'm not a huge fan on the mouse travel distances and clicks, but I'm also not quite as dramatic as some of the people in this thread. Oh, by the way, arrow keys scroll the start menu.
That's a massive backslide from the classic UI though. With a mouse there are 5 places you can always reliably hit quickly and without effort. Running a fullscreen app, 3 of those are: window close, the app menu & the start menu. In win7 the 4th is show desktop. Top of screen -> click -> drag -> bottom of screen is much harder than top-right -> click. From what I've seen it's perfect for a touch interface, but things that are trivial with one input method (hitting specific points, dragging, swipes, multi-input) are often difficult with another input method, and vice versa (hitting all the corners instantly)
How do you switch between multiple mail accounts in the Windows 8 mail client? I've got the hotmail account from my Windows sign-in and also my Gmail account setup in the client but I can't figure out how to switch back and forth between the two within the client.
Thoughts?
Edit: Figured it out. You have to right-click in the mail window to bring up the mail menu bar at the bottom of the screen.
Here is a useful guide for those that really want to try it outside a VM, without blowing up your current installation.
I figured out the whole drag down to close thing by accident and I kind of liked it. Kind of. On my 15" laptop. I can't imagine doing that stuff on a regular basis on a 25" monitor. Or really anything but a touch screen.
Overall, I liked the metro interface and apps, and definitely see a market for that tablet that docks to a keyboard and becomes a laptop thing. But as for Microsofts user base (giant mega corps with 10k+ desktops), that metro crap won't fly. Get rid of the Start Button? It's been 5 years and people still bitch about the ribbon. I personally like it, I'm not a huge office document type of person, but I can say the ribbon definitely made things much easier for me. Don't see the point of it in explorer, I'm a fan of minimalism in the OS functions.
So yeah, I'm in the "fine for tablets and phones" camp.
I still think W8's UI for tablets is second-to-none.
There is a third party program to disable metro and bring back the start menu.
Start8
Also: you can right-click to get Run already:
That video is amazing.
Having read through this thread, and watching that video, it certainly seems that this is a case of putting the cart before the horse.
This is such a radical departure from the norm that they are going to have to educate.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
That video shows what most people in that age group look like using a computer, period.
You're right. It's just those silly old people who don't know that throwing the mouse into an unmarked corner does something. All us young people don't need to see things to use them. In fact, I don't have a monitor because i'm so young. I just know where everything is.
yeah old people totally figured out Windows 98 by themselves
they were not told how anything worked at all
just poof, they dropped a 60 year old in a room with a Compaq Presario and he immediately knew how to get to Solitaire
sadly some idiot at Microsoft will see this and they'll hold a 17 hour meeting to figure out what went wrong, even though nothing went wrong, the internet is just loaded with petulance
that there is a hot corner to activate the menu screen is pretty low on microsofts list of things to improve, I offer
That's the beauty of it being a beta.
This video was done in a spiteful and sort of dickish manner.
But despite the tone, it highlights a real problem.
One my dad, my mom, and an ungodly number of people I support in my line of work is going to have unless Microsoft invests some serious effort into getting people educated by the Operating system as they use it.
I'm not asking for the return of Clippy here, but a little intro like the one OSX has when you boot up lion that explains that scrolling is now fundamentally different will suffice here. Just a quick little "you can't skip me and you need to pay attention to me for 45 seconds as I point out the big differences"
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
I used the preview for 2-3 hours without ever realizing that hot corner was there. I never did find it on my own, I read that it was there. And I am not a gray-haired retiree; I guess you guys are just going to have to trust me on that one, but it's the truth. I was using the windows start button on my keyboard to switch back to the Metro home screen whenever I wanted to (which, granted, was not often).
It's also a problem that a washed-out/faded icon could fix, especially if it comes up when you scroll the mouse or move your finger across the screen.
On the other hand, it's also a problem that no user interface can overcome without someone showing you how it works. Not just hot corners, but computing in general. My friends grandmother would yell "INTERNET" into the webcam then click START because she thought that's how you made programs start. Despite most companies best efforts, computing is not an entirely intuitive experience. Sit a person unfamiliar with computers but a bit comfortable with Windows 7 down in front of OSX or Ubuntu and then not tell them shit and have them "figure it out for themselves" and I'm sure the results would be similar. Does that mean OSX and Ubuntu are also bad operating systems?
Also, take someone who is intimately familiar with computers and software, but only software from Microsoft. Have them try to use Linux command line prompts.
I fully expect the actual release version of Windows 8 will become a bit more cohesive and a lot more user friendly, whether it be from prompts or the return of Clippy as your guide through this new OS. I'm also fully expecting Windows 7 to be the choice for non-touchscreen computers for quite a few years, or (worst case scenario) until Windows 9.
I personally find Win8 pretty slick, and find it much more keyboard useable (And as a consequence of this, fast as fuck) than Win7, but for the sake of the wife and kids I'm going to keep Win8 on the slate I'm picking up later this year and make the move as we acquire all touchscreen devices.
Ctrl+Arrow Key.
RTFM.
I fully expect Microsoft to do that, however, because they have been pretty good about explaining how to use Metro on their current Metro offerings (360, Phone).
It's just that Windows has a much, MUCH larger userbase that is far less tech savvy, and they are going to really hold their hand a bit either through visual cues or tutorials. The beta is clearly showcasing that.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
Some statistics courtesy of Gartner/IDC.
1 million tablets (presumably MS owned the market here as this is pre-iPad/android)
306 million PCs
0.3% of PC market
2010
19.4 million tablets
308 million PCs
6.3% of PC market
Gross PC sales increased 0.7%, removing tablets PC sales would've declined 5.7% to 288.6 million units.
2011
68.7 million tablets
351 million PCs
19.6% of PC market
Gross PC sales increased 14%, removing tablets PC sales would've declined another 2.2% to 282.3 million units.
2012 (proj)
106 million tablets
370 million PCs
28.6% of PC market
Gross PC sales increased 5.4%, removing tablets PC sales would've declined another 6.5% to 264 million units.
Assuming non-tablet PC sales stagnate or remain flat and tablet PCs continue its trend it's very possible that tablet PC sales will exceed non-tablet PC sales by 2015.
Non-tablet market share is irrelevant for the Windows 6.2 release; their objective is to become relevant in a space where they hardly exist right now. Does anyone really think the release of Win8 is to address this, and not this and maybe this?
Along with cybernetic arms?
If so I'll take 10 copies of Windows 8 then.
That's why the same OS.