The concern isn't that "the sucky players ruin our experience", it's that the long term viability of a game relies on it being able to make a casual player feel like a badass. WOW fixed this by making a majority of combat and content very simple, apparently until the last expansion.
My fear isn't that bad players ruin the experience, but that every bad player deserves the same chance to learn the mechanics through gameplay as the guys who read every article, tactica and strategy guide.
That sounds very much like he's saying that "casual players" are not badass, and that they have to "feel" that way through simple combat and content.
I respectfully disagree.
He is also equating "bad player" with "inexperienced".
You do realize that in GW2 you literally cannot stop someone from standing next to you and scaling the event you are doing, right? That's why it's such an issue.
Except it doesn't. Events scale with contribution, not presence. If someone just stands on your head doing nothing the event won't change.
The concern isn't that "the sucky players ruin our experience", it's that the long term viability of a game relies on it being able to make a casual player feel like a badass. WOW fixed this by making a majority of combat and content very simple, apparently until the last expansion.
My fear isn't that bad players ruin the experience, but that every bad player deserves the same chance to learn the mechanics through gameplay as the guys who read every article, tactica and strategy guide.
That sounds very much like he's saying that "casual players" are not badass, and that they have to "feel" that way through simple combat and content.
I respectfully disagree.
He is also equating "bad player" with "inexperienced".
Becoming experienced is usually what stops someone from being bad, hardcore or casual. Hardcore players typically aren't bad on account of the high amounts of experience implicit in their play time.
There's really no controversial statements being made here. You're simply inferring that "bad player" is being used to describe an inherent quality. Most of us here are going to be bad GW2 players, the only question is for how long.
I didn't mean standing still, I meant participating, and, say, not healing yourself.
Well firstly, one person doing this would not really affect much, and it seems unlikely that there would be multiple people doing this in a single event. Also, if they were playing very badly then they would die, effectively ending their 'participation'.
I think it'll be pretty difficult to effectively grief the events in GW2 the way they're set up. Anybody who tries is likely to quickly get bored when faced with a wall of nobody else caring. If somebody is still learning to play, screws up, and dies, whatever! Helping that person get back up even adds to your contribution to the event. If somebody is obviously being an ass, just don't bring them back up when they die.
I maintain that GW 2's design will keep the desire to grief at a minimum, anyway. There's no false hatred being built up in the PvE game via player factions, and PvP players shouldn't be spending too much time in queues being bored. It should be more fun for most player-killer types to run around in WvWvW than to make a futile effort at tweaking the "carebears" out in the zones. You can't steal anybody's loot or gank their resource nodes. You can go have bar brawls in which playing dirty tricks is expected and encouraged as part of the game. Really, the development team has done an impressive job minimizing conflict between players when it's not desired, and maximizing opportunities for players to expend that player-killing energy in non-destructive (to the player community, anyway) ways.
Want to find me on a gaming service? I'm SwashbucklerXX everywhere.
You were able to do everything with your career/experience that I'm not.
...
I have to go drown in a hot tub now, but I promise to bring a mic with a condom on it to record the sounds. My parting gift for you.
On a better note, STOP ARGUING ABOUT BAD PEOPLE, PEOPLE.
Your sig makes this quote so much better.
The Great DAMNED STEAM SALES AND WII/U Backlog Just Finished: Borderlands (waste of $7)/Mario Brothers U/The Last Story/Tropico 4 Currently Playing: NS2/ZombiU/PlanetSide 2/Ys/Dota2/Xenoblade Chronicles On Hold: Prince of Persia: Warrior Within/GW2/Scribblenauts Coming Next: Prince of Persia: The Two Thrones/X-Com Classic
Does anyone know if the contribution system is zero sum/relative in GW2, or is it absolute? As in, if you're there from the beginning of the event, will you always get gold (assuming reasonable play), or could you lose out if people come along that get higher "contribution"
Rift had a zero sum/relative contribution system, and it sucks. It would defeat the goals of GW2. Instead of being happy when you see another players, you would think "shit, they could take my gold rating." It also will inevitably enforce a certain play style, because people will just play to maximize the points they get from the contribution algorithm. Some skills, like line of warding which would be impossible to assign contribution for, would get you no rating, so players would never use them.
Does anyone know if the contribution system is zero sum/relative in GW2, or is it absolute? As in, if you're there from the beginning of the event, will you always get gold (assuming reasonable play), or could you lose out if people come along that get higher "contribution"
Rift had a zero sum/relative contribution system, and it sucks. It would defeat the goals of GW2. Instead of being happy when you see another players, you would think "shit, they could take my gold rating." It also will inevitably enforce a certain play style, because people will just play to maximize the points they get from the contribution algorithm. Some skills, like line of warding which would be impossible to assign contribution for, would get you no rating, so players would never use them.
It's not zero sum as far as we know.
Because that would be stupid if nothing else and go against every single element of their design.
This is apparently one of those open world dungeons that opens up when a dynamic event chain is completed.
Also, it looks like it would totally suck to die in one of these. You would have to exit the dungeon, you wouldn't see all of it, and you wouldn't get contribution. I'm definitely sitting as far back as I can when I go through these.
Does anyone know if the contribution system is zero sum/relative in GW2, or is it absolute? As in, if you're there from the beginning of the event, will you always get gold (assuming reasonable play), or could you lose out if people come along that get higher "contribution"
Rift had a zero sum/relative contribution system, and it sucks. It would defeat the goals of GW2. Instead of being happy when you see another players, you would think "shit, they could take my gold rating." It also will inevitably enforce a certain play style, because people will just play to maximize the points they get from the contribution algorithm. Some skills, like line of warding which would be impossible to assign contribution for, would get you no rating, so players would never use them.
It's not zero sum as far as we know.
Because that would be stupid if nothing else and go against every single element of their design.
Plus Trion figured that out pretty early and switched to to an absolute system (and removed the contribution bar), so it'd be silly for ANet to repeat that mistake.
RE: Underwater video - I'm one of those few people who doesn't automatically hate underwater stuff, and I definitely like where they're going with theirs. RIFT had a few nice underwater bits (the puzzle in the one lake), but breath limits always ended up being more nuisance than excitement. Terraria has drowning but it works well with that game (maybe just 2d works better for breathing limits since you never really get disoriented). The bobbing-swim style of the Charr is a little blech, looks very weird....
steejee on
The Great DAMNED STEAM SALES AND WII/U Backlog Just Finished: Borderlands (waste of $7)/Mario Brothers U/The Last Story/Tropico 4 Currently Playing: NS2/ZombiU/PlanetSide 2/Ys/Dota2/Xenoblade Chronicles On Hold: Prince of Persia: Warrior Within/GW2/Scribblenauts Coming Next: Prince of Persia: The Two Thrones/X-Com Classic
This is apparently one of those open world dungeons that opens up when a dynamic event chain is completed.
Also, it looks like it would totally suck to die in one of these. You would have to exit the dungeon, you wouldn't see all of it, and you wouldn't get contribution. I'm definitely sitting as far back as I can when I go through these.
Yeah definitely best to be a ranged class in any game that has open contribution event things
Being Melee in rift bit me in the ass, I had to respec to be a ranged rogue because melee just gets killed by boss aoes and then you get nothing
Does anyone know if the contribution system is zero sum/relative in GW2, or is it absolute? As in, if you're there from the beginning of the event, will you always get gold (assuming reasonable play), or could you lose out if people come along that get higher "contribution"
Rift had a zero sum/relative contribution system, and it sucks. It would defeat the goals of GW2. Instead of being happy when you see another players, you would think "shit, they could take my gold rating." It also will inevitably enforce a certain play style, because people will just play to maximize the points they get from the contribution algorithm. Some skills, like line of warding which would be impossible to assign contribution for, would get you no rating, so players would never use them.
It's not zero sum as far as we know.
Because that would be stupid if nothing else and go against every single element of their design.
Plus Trion figured that out pretty early and switched to to an absolute system (and removed the contribution bar), so it'd be silly for ANet to repeat that mistake.
RE: Underwater video - I'm one of those few people who doesn't automatically hate underwater stuff, and I definitely like where they're going with theirs. RIFT had a few nice underwater bits (the puzzle in the one lake), but breath limits always ended up being more nuisance than excitement. Terraria has drowning but it works well with that game (maybe just 2d works better for breathing limits since you never really get disoriented). The bobbing-swim style of the Charr is a little blech, looks very weird....
It's fine with the default swimming animation, though it doesn't seem like a style that'd do well to propel someone quickly underwater. Then again, neither would a fuckton of fur and armor, so if they wanna mix a pounce with a crawl kick, that's cool.
I don't see why it continues to bob when he has a weapon and is doing a breaststroke or frog kick, though. That'd just propel him forward, not up and down.
It may break my immersion at some point in the future! Someone tell a developer, quick!
Some people love griefing more then anything. It's got nothing to do with how fun the game is.
No, it's not. Maybe you can find that one magical unicorn that plays MMOs simply to ruin other people's experiences, but those individuals are so maligned and social ill-adjusted, they can hardly factor into any honest discussion on griefing.
The vast majority of griefers and griefing guilds are born and formed because people are simply bored with the game, or finding explointing the mechanics to ruin other people's experience more fun.
Hencefore, I stay firmly on my equation of Fun > Griefing.
And I think Anet understands this, leading me to believe that there's going to be little to no griefing simply because people would much rather play the game as intended.
Yeah, I'm optimistic, but maybe it's that optimism that wards off the clouds of hate, doom and gloom that see to attach themselves to other people in MMOs.
Some people love griefing more then anything. It's got nothing to do with how fun the game is.
No, it's not. Maybe you can find that one magical unicorn that plays MMOs simply to ruin other people's experiences, but those individuals are so maligned and social ill-adjusted, they can hardly factor into any honest discussion on griefing.
The vast majority of griefers and griefing guilds are born and formed because people are simply bored with the game, or finding explointing the mechanics to ruin other people's experience more fun.
Hencefore, I stay firmly on my equation of Fun > Griefing.
And I think Anet understands this, leading me to believe that there's going to be little to no griefing simply because people would much rather play the game as intended.
Yeah, I'm optimistic, but maybe it's that optimism that wards off the clouds of hate, doom and gloom that see to attach themselves to other people in MMOs.
I love your optimism, but I have to agree with Shryke. Plenty of people go out of their way to just troll people, in any medium. Message boards, general chat, inside the game, whatever. And it's not because they don't enjoy the game, it's because they're dickheads. Combined with the anonymity of playing a video game, their dickhead nature leads to them just finding ways to mess with other people.
I do honestly think that Guild Wars 2 has a high chance of attracting a generally more pleasant player base, because it's not an ip people are familiar with the way they are with say a Blizzard product, or Star Wars, but they'll still be there.
Does anyone know if the contribution system is zero sum/relative in GW2, or is it absolute? As in, if you're there from the beginning of the event, will you always get gold (assuming reasonable play), or could you lose out if people come along that get higher "contribution"
Rift had a zero sum/relative contribution system, and it sucks. It would defeat the goals of GW2. Instead of being happy when you see another players, you would think "shit, they could take my gold rating." It also will inevitably enforce a certain play style, because people will just play to maximize the points they get from the contribution algorithm. Some skills, like line of warding which would be impossible to assign contribution for, would get you no rating, so players would never use them.
It's not zero sum as far as we know.
Because that would be stupid if nothing else and go against every single element of their design.
Plus Trion figured that out pretty early and switched to to an absolute system (and removed the contribution bar), so it'd be silly for ANet to repeat that mistake.
RE: Underwater video - I'm one of those few people who doesn't automatically hate underwater stuff, and I definitely like where they're going with theirs. RIFT had a few nice underwater bits (the puzzle in the one lake), but breath limits always ended up being more nuisance than excitement. Terraria has drowning but it works well with that game (maybe just 2d works better for breathing limits since you never really get disoriented). The bobbing-swim style of the Charr is a little blech, looks very weird....
Oh wow, did they really change it? When I was playing it was just whoever can spam insta-cast spells the fastest.
Some people love griefing more then anything. It's got nothing to do with how fun the game is.
No, it's not. Maybe you can find that one magical unicorn that plays MMOs simply to ruin other people's experiences, but those individuals are so maligned and social ill-adjusted, they can hardly factor into any honest discussion on griefing.
The vast majority of griefers and griefing guilds are born and formed because people are simply bored with the game, or finding explointing the mechanics to ruin other people's experience more fun.
Hencefore, I stay firmly on my equation of Fun > Griefing.
And I think Anet understands this, leading me to believe that there's going to be little to no griefing simply because people would much rather play the game as intended.
Yeah, I'm optimistic, but maybe it's that optimism that wards off the clouds of hate, doom and gloom that see to attach themselves to other people in MMOs.
I love your optimism, but I have to agree with Shryke. Plenty of people go out of their way to just troll people, in any medium. Message boards, general chat, inside the game, whatever. And it's not because they don't enjoy the game, it's because they're dickheads. Combined with the anonymity of playing a video game, their dickhead nature leads to them just finding ways to mess with other people.
Exactly. People can both enjoy the game and enjoy fucking over other people in the game. At the same time even! Griefers in WoW don't just log in to grief people, they log in to play and have fun and grief people. They do all 3. People enjoy griefing in every medium there is.
GW2 will have little to no griefing because Arena.net understands the best way to prevent griefing is to not allow it to happen. The entire design of GW2 goes against your assumption Ironzerg because it's not designed to stop griefing by "being fun", it's designed to stop griefing by making it impossible to negatively effect another player on your team in every single aspect of the game.
I guess I just don't see the mechanical function of trolling and how it would work.
And if they make a guild/name for themselves as griefers in whatever way it is possible, it just makes it easier to identify the idiots you don't help. Don't feed the forum trolls people...
@steejee - It's not my fault Kay is 100% accurate in all things everywhere.
People can find any way to troll. If I'm playing my sage in TOR in a pvp warzone, I can rescue my own teammates into fires. That's just one example of how you can troll your own teammate. If it's somebody who isn't on your team, it generally becomes even easier.
In most MMOs, this is incredibly easy, though it usually involves things that they're designing GW2 to not facilitate, such as tagging other people's mobs before they can, stealing crafting nodes or quest objectives from them right as they get to them and have to fight something, etc.
Dynamic Event participation is counted individually, so your score is not dependent on others' score. Also, when the event completes you get rewards for whatever you contributed while in the area even if you leave the event area before it's finished.
As for griefing, the only way to "grief" a DE would be to participate but do so poorly. I am fairly certain it would take several people doing this at once to have an effect that is insurmountable to the other players. Even if the griefers manage to keep this sort-of-participating balance somehow, without dying, and the event fails... it will still lead to another event, and everyone who participated will still get rewards.
Overall it seems like a lot of time and effort for very little net effect, from the griefers' perspective.
Wait, don't breaststroke and frog kick bob up and down way more than freestroke and backstroke?
I used to be a swimmer back in the day and I definitely don't remember breaststroke being particularly smooth, vertically.
[edit] Never mind, I hadn't had the chance to look at that video yet. And yes, you're right.
Yeah, but when we do it we're usually concerned with things like breathing, hence the bobbing. I don't remember bobbing too much with a straight underwater stroke.
That's pretty neat though. Most games stick to a single swim animation, so seeing the charr swapping from a crawl to a frog kick was pretty awesome. Would be cool to see them doing a different set of strokes completely once they've surfaced. Likely a straight up crawl, but I could see charr faring better with the butterfly.
Dynamic Event participation is counted individually, so your score is not dependent on others' score. Also, when the event completes you get rewards for whatever you contributed while in the area even if you leave the event area before it's finished.
As for griefing, the only way to "grief" a DE would be to participate but do so poorly. I am fairly certain it would take several people doing this at once to have an effect that is insurmountable to the other players. Even if the griefers manage to keep this sort-of-participating balance somehow, without dying, and the event fails... it will still lead to another event, and everyone who participated will still get rewards.
Overall it seems like a lot of time and effort for very little net effect, from the griefers' perspective.
What I mean is if you die in one of those DE dungeons and have to release, then you're gonna miss it and get no contribution/reward. I think in one of the killtenrats writeups, the author says that very thing happened to him (he died with no one near to revive and missed the entire dungeon and its reward.
Posts
Human beings like to keep it simple I guess. Sometimes it gets to be a bad thing.
Hardcore/Casual can be quite a useful label so long as one doesn't associate how someone plays a game with how well someone plays a game.
Thankfully, no one seems to be doing that in this thread, which is why the continued posts against that behavior are mystifying.
:winky:
Mr. Winky is here to save the day! :bz :bz
That sounds very much like he's saying that "casual players" are not badass, and that they have to "feel" that way through simple combat and content.
I respectfully disagree.
He is also equating "bad player" with "inexperienced".
:winky:
http://digital.copcomm.com/i/57245/47
They sure are passionate about their work over there that's for sure.
Except it doesn't. Events scale with contribution, not presence. If someone just stands on your head doing nothing the event won't change.
LoL: failboattootoot
Becoming experienced is usually what stops someone from being bad, hardcore or casual. Hardcore players typically aren't bad on account of the high amounts of experience implicit in their play time.
There's really no controversial statements being made here. You're simply inferring that "bad player" is being used to describe an inherent quality. Most of us here are going to be bad GW2 players, the only question is for how long.
White FC: 0819 3350 1787
Well firstly, one person doing this would not really affect much, and it seems unlikely that there would be multiple people doing this in a single event. Also, if they were playing very badly then they would die, effectively ending their 'participation'.
Steam (Ansatz) || GW2 officer (Ansatz.6498)
I maintain that GW 2's design will keep the desire to grief at a minimum, anyway. There's no false hatred being built up in the PvE game via player factions, and PvP players shouldn't be spending too much time in queues being bored. It should be more fun for most player-killer types to run around in WvWvW than to make a futile effort at tweaking the "carebears" out in the zones. You can't steal anybody's loot or gank their resource nodes. You can go have bar brawls in which playing dirty tricks is expected and encouraged as part of the game. Really, the development team has done an impressive job minimizing conflict between players when it's not desired, and maximizing opportunities for players to expend that player-killing energy in non-destructive (to the player community, anyway) ways.
The solution that I whole heartedly endorse has been implemented by Anet...that being, make your game FUN to play.
Yeah, fun > griefing...rocket science.
You were able to do everything with your career/experience that I'm not.
...
I have to go drown in a hot tub now, but I promise to bring a mic with a condom on it to record the sounds. My parting gift for you.
On a better note, STOP ARGUING ABOUT BAD PEOPLE, PEOPLE.
Your sig makes this quote so much better.
Just Finished: Borderlands (waste of $7)/Mario Brothers U/The Last Story/Tropico 4
Currently Playing: NS2/ZombiU/PlanetSide 2/Ys/Dota2/Xenoblade Chronicles
On Hold: Prince of Persia: Warrior Within/GW2/Scribblenauts
Coming Next: Prince of Persia: The Two Thrones/X-Com Classic
Rift had a zero sum/relative contribution system, and it sucks. It would defeat the goals of GW2. Instead of being happy when you see another players, you would think "shit, they could take my gold rating." It also will inevitably enforce a certain play style, because people will just play to maximize the points they get from the contribution algorithm. Some skills, like line of warding which would be impossible to assign contribution for, would get you no rating, so players would never use them.
Can't watch the video though due to being at work.
This is just blatantly false.
Some people love griefing more then anything. It's got nothing to do with how fun the game is.
It's not zero sum as far as we know.
Because that would be stupid if nothing else and go against every single element of their design.
This is apparently one of those open world dungeons that opens up when a dynamic event chain is completed.
Also, it looks like it would totally suck to die in one of these. You would have to exit the dungeon, you wouldn't see all of it, and you wouldn't get contribution. I'm definitely sitting as far back as I can when I go through these.
Plus Trion figured that out pretty early and switched to to an absolute system (and removed the contribution bar), so it'd be silly for ANet to repeat that mistake.
RE: Underwater video - I'm one of those few people who doesn't automatically hate underwater stuff, and I definitely like where they're going with theirs. RIFT had a few nice underwater bits (the puzzle in the one lake), but breath limits always ended up being more nuisance than excitement. Terraria has drowning but it works well with that game (maybe just 2d works better for breathing limits since you never really get disoriented). The bobbing-swim style of the Charr is a little blech, looks very weird....
Just Finished: Borderlands (waste of $7)/Mario Brothers U/The Last Story/Tropico 4
Currently Playing: NS2/ZombiU/PlanetSide 2/Ys/Dota2/Xenoblade Chronicles
On Hold: Prince of Persia: Warrior Within/GW2/Scribblenauts
Coming Next: Prince of Persia: The Two Thrones/X-Com Classic
Yeah definitely best to be a ranged class in any game that has open contribution event things
Being Melee in rift bit me in the ass, I had to respec to be a ranged rogue because melee just gets killed by boss aoes and then you get nothing
It's fine with the default swimming animation, though it doesn't seem like a style that'd do well to propel someone quickly underwater. Then again, neither would a fuckton of fur and armor, so if they wanna mix a pounce with a crawl kick, that's cool.
I don't see why it continues to bob when he has a weapon and is doing a breaststroke or frog kick, though. That'd just propel him forward, not up and down.
It may break my immersion at some point in the future! Someone tell a developer, quick!
I used to be a swimmer back in the day and I definitely don't remember breaststroke being particularly smooth, vertically.
[edit] Never mind, I hadn't had the chance to look at that video yet. And yes, you're right.
No, it's not. Maybe you can find that one magical unicorn that plays MMOs simply to ruin other people's experiences, but those individuals are so maligned and social ill-adjusted, they can hardly factor into any honest discussion on griefing.
The vast majority of griefers and griefing guilds are born and formed because people are simply bored with the game, or finding explointing the mechanics to ruin other people's experience more fun.
Hencefore, I stay firmly on my equation of Fun > Griefing.
And I think Anet understands this, leading me to believe that there's going to be little to no griefing simply because people would much rather play the game as intended.
Yeah, I'm optimistic, but maybe it's that optimism that wards off the clouds of hate, doom and gloom that see to attach themselves to other people in MMOs.
Like, reading your post genuinely gave me joy. Thank you.
I love your optimism, but I have to agree with Shryke. Plenty of people go out of their way to just troll people, in any medium. Message boards, general chat, inside the game, whatever. And it's not because they don't enjoy the game, it's because they're dickheads. Combined with the anonymity of playing a video game, their dickhead nature leads to them just finding ways to mess with other people.
I do honestly think that Guild Wars 2 has a high chance of attracting a generally more pleasant player base, because it's not an ip people are familiar with the way they are with say a Blizzard product, or Star Wars, but they'll still be there.
Oh wow, did they really change it? When I was playing it was just whoever can spam insta-cast spells the fastest.
Exactly. People can both enjoy the game and enjoy fucking over other people in the game. At the same time even! Griefers in WoW don't just log in to grief people, they log in to play and have fun and grief people. They do all 3. People enjoy griefing in every medium there is.
GW2 will have little to no griefing because Arena.net understands the best way to prevent griefing is to not allow it to happen. The entire design of GW2 goes against your assumption Ironzerg because it's not designed to stop griefing by "being fun", it's designed to stop griefing by making it impossible to negatively effect another player on your team in every single aspect of the game.
And if they make a guild/name for themselves as griefers in whatever way it is possible, it just makes it easier to identify the idiots you don't help. Don't feed the forum trolls people...
@steejee - It's not my fault Kay is 100% accurate in all things everywhere.
In most MMOs, this is incredibly easy, though it usually involves things that they're designing GW2 to not facilitate, such as tagging other people's mobs before they can, stealing crafting nodes or quest objectives from them right as they get to them and have to fight something, etc.
As for griefing, the only way to "grief" a DE would be to participate but do so poorly. I am fairly certain it would take several people doing this at once to have an effect that is insurmountable to the other players. Even if the griefers manage to keep this sort-of-participating balance somehow, without dying, and the event fails... it will still lead to another event, and everyone who participated will still get rewards.
Overall it seems like a lot of time and effort for very little net effect, from the griefers' perspective.
Steam (Ansatz) || GW2 officer (Ansatz.6498)
That's pretty neat though. Most games stick to a single swim animation, so seeing the charr swapping from a crawl to a frog kick was pretty awesome. Would be cool to see them doing a different set of strokes completely once they've surfaced. Likely a straight up crawl, but I could see charr faring better with the butterfly.
EDIT: yes phone, that is pretty best, isn't it
What I mean is if you die in one of those DE dungeons and have to release, then you're gonna miss it and get no contribution/reward. I think in one of the killtenrats writeups, the author says that very thing happened to him (he died with no one near to revive and missed the entire dungeon and its reward.