Actually light steroid usage is rumored to improve a pitchers endurance.
I don't know where these rumors have come from, but pitcher steroid usage was commonly believed to have happened in the late 90's... Well, just look at the league ERA in the late 90's/early 00's and you'll see the "benefits".
It is widely known that a pitcher doing steroids = reduced performance. Yeah, they'll be bigger, and their fastball might jump slightly, but their mobility will be hurt, their accuracy destroyed and their mental capacity diminished.
A lot of the "negative effects" of steroid usage are either unfounded or only apply to over-usage. I don't believe there are any published studies on light steroid usage in athletics and there probably never will be.
Second, I know this is just being cynical but I always see red flags when I see 35+ athletes playing better then ever.
I'm always suspicious when I see guys playing BETTER at 35, but I'm not suspicious when they're playing GOOD at 35. Clemens is not pitching better than he did in his hey-day by ANY means. In his hey-day, he threw 99-100 mph, struck out 10-14 per game, and won games like it was no ones business. Now, he's still very good, but he's more of a 91-94 mph thrower, with 4-8 K's per game. Still amazing, but no where near what he was.
And I truly believe that some guys are just gifted with an amazing athletic body.
Dude he had practically his best season ever in 2005! ERA of 1.87 and if he'd of played for a team with decent run support he'd have been undefeated.
ERA is meaningless to me. In 1986, he would have had an ERA around 0 if he pitched in the Astros current ballpark.
I'm talking about his raw stuff, which has declined. Not significantly, he can still bring it, but he's no longer blowing guys away with 99-100 mph fastballs, or throwing 9 inning complete games with 15+ strikeouts. He can't do that anymore.
Actually light steroid usage is rumored to improve a pitchers endurance.
I don't know where these rumors have come from, but pitcher steroid usage was commonly believed to have happened in the late 90's... Well, just look at the league ERA in the late 90's/early 00's and you'll see the "benefits".
It is widely known that a pitcher doing steroids = reduced performance. Yeah, they'll be bigger, and their fastball might jump slightly, but their mobility will be hurt, their accuracy destroyed and their mental capacity diminished.
A lot of the "negative effects" of steroid usage are either unfounded or only apply to over-usage. I don't believe there are any published studies on light steroid usage in athletics and there probably never will be.
Second, I know this is just being cynical but I always see red flags when I see 35+ athletes playing better then ever.
I'm always suspicious when I see guys playing BETTER at 35, but I'm not suspicious when they're playing GOOD at 35. Clemens is not pitching better than he did in his hey-day by ANY means. In his hey-day, he threw 99-100 mph, struck out 10-14 per game, and won games like it was no ones business. Now, he's still very good, but he's more of a 91-94 mph thrower, with 4-8 K's per game. Still amazing, but no where near what he was.
And I truly believe that some guys are just gifted with an amazing athletic body.
Dude he had practically his best season ever in 2005! ERA of 1.87 and if he'd of played for a team with decent run support he'd have been undefeated.
ERA is meaningless to me. In 1986, he would have had an ERA around 0 if he pitched in the Astros current ballpark.
I'm talking about his raw stuff, which has declined. Not significantly, he can still bring it, but he's no longer blowing guys away with 99-100 mph fastballs, or throwing 9 inning complete games with 15+ strikeouts. He can't do that anymore.
okay but era isn't meaningless to everyone else, so uh, yeah.
AWIY on
0
ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
edited March 2007
He pitched a couple 10 stikeout games and a few with 9 as well.
Actually light steroid usage is rumored to improve a pitchers endurance.
I don't know where these rumors have come from, but pitcher steroid usage was commonly believed to have happened in the late 90's... Well, just look at the league ERA in the late 90's/early 00's and you'll see the "benefits".
It is widely known that a pitcher doing steroids = reduced performance. Yeah, they'll be bigger, and their fastball might jump slightly, but their mobility will be hurt, their accuracy destroyed and their mental capacity diminished.
A lot of the "negative effects" of steroid usage are either unfounded or only apply to over-usage. I don't believe there are any published studies on light steroid usage in athletics and there probably never will be.
Second, I know this is just being cynical but I always see red flags when I see 35+ athletes playing better then ever.
I'm always suspicious when I see guys playing BETTER at 35, but I'm not suspicious when they're playing GOOD at 35. Clemens is not pitching better than he did in his hey-day by ANY means. In his hey-day, he threw 99-100 mph, struck out 10-14 per game, and won games like it was no ones business. Now, he's still very good, but he's more of a 91-94 mph thrower, with 4-8 K's per game. Still amazing, but no where near what he was.
And I truly believe that some guys are just gifted with an amazing athletic body.
Dude he had practically his best season ever in 2005! ERA of 1.87 and if he'd of played for a team with decent run support he'd have been undefeated.
ERA is meaningless to me. In 1986, he would have had an ERA around 0 if he pitched in the Astros current ballpark.
I'm talking about his raw stuff, which has declined. Not significantly, he can still bring it, but he's no longer blowing guys away with 99-100 mph fastballs, or throwing 9 inning complete games with 15+ strikeouts. He can't do that anymore.
okay but era isn't meaningless to everyone else, so uh, yeah.
But it should be. Good pitchers can get high ERA's on bad defensive teams and in small ballparks, and average pitchers can get great ERA's on good defensive teams in big ballparks. This is not uncommon.
Same thing with wins. I was so pissed when Zito won the Cy Young with 24 wins over Pedro with 20, even though Pedro had more strikeouts, better hits per 9, much lower ERA in a smaller ballpark on a shitty defensive team, less homeruns allowed, less walks allowed, and a much better WHIP.
Anyway, whatever. lol
misbehavin on
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ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
edited March 2007
Dude, the Cy Young almost always goes to the pitcher with the most wins. Just like how league MVP in the NFL almost always goes to the guy with the most touchdowns. It's the most important category.
Dude, the Cy Young almost always goes to the pitcher with the most wins. Just like how league MVP in the NFL almost always goes to the guy with the most touchdowns. It's the most important category.
That's bullshit. This was, in fact, the first time in MLB history that the pitcher with the lowest ERA and most strikeouts did not win the Cy Young, but pitchers that do not lead in wins win the award all the time (even Pedro did in 1997).
Tom Seaver in 1973
Bruce Sutter (relief pitcher) in 1979
Fernando Valenzuela in 1981
Rick Sutcliff in 1984
Randy Johnson in 1999 AND 2000
I could go on, but you get my point.
Wins may be important for the TEAM, but they're meaningless for the Cy Young award, because they are largely outside of the pitchers control. If one guy loses a game 1-0, and another guy wins 10-9, the win may be more important for the team, but guy A clearly PITCHED better.
As a huge SF Giants fan I'm just gonna say this and I know a lot of people will disagree but...
Get off Bonds' jock already.
Yeah he can be surly but so what? He's not paid to be nice, he's paid to hit a ball over a fence with a stick. Having watched him in SF for about 15 years now I can tell you right now that half the shit that's said about him he doesn't deserve. Yeah maybe the other half is somewhat true but again, so f'in what?
Do you seriously think you would NOT be standoff-ish to the media if they had treated you as badly as they treat him? Publishing every sordid detail of his affair and divorce (what's that got to do with baseball again?? oh right, nothing)... Making his dad's alcoholism a daily subject in the papers... Making all kinds of wild accusations without ANY shred of proof (what happened to journalistic integrity??)
Feh, I'd be pissed off too.
Fact is, he's not a bad person. He gets along JUST FINE with his teammates, despite with the blowdried airheads on ESPN want you to think. The fact is, they have to sell papers / get ratings and bashing Bonds has become the trendy thing to do. They just need something to write about.... Yeah he can be pretty cocky sometimes, but he's also the best... he can back his shit up too. Know who else was always pretty cocky? WILLIE F'ing MAYS. Hell, he still speaks highly of himself, and why not, he was the BEST there ever was, he's got a right to be that way...
So, do I think Bonds is a cheater? Well... define "cheating". If it means, "broke the rules of baseball" ... the NO he fucking didn't, since there were no rules against steroids until 2003 - AND he's passed every test he's taken since then. Check his 2004 stats.. HMMM he broke his own records for HR per at-bat that year WHILE being tested at least twice that we know of (fact). Barry Bonds doesn't need steroids to hit a home run. Guys like Canseco might, but Barry f'in Bonds does not, and he's proven that.
Not to mention.. if he was doing 'roids back then (and I think its likely that he was, but again it wasn't against the rules...) how many other players were also? How many pitchers?? I mean shit, before we talk about taking away his HR records, maybe we should look at how many pitchers he faced during that "era" that were on the 'roids? Maybe we should be ADDING home runs to his total instead of subtracting?
Or, maybe we should just realize that he's the best hitter of our generation, maybe the best ever, and get off his f'n jock...
How many more hundreds of millions of taxpayers dollars are we going to allow Jeff Novitsky - himself a failed athlete who once worked out at the same gym as Bonds, and Giambi, and is just jealous of them. ... to waste before we say ENOUGH ALREADY!
t jwalk: Did Bonds need roids to hit HRs? No. Did he need them after 1998 to hit enough to break records? Yes. You think he didn't need roids to hit home runs. Then why the fuck is he on them? Why is he twice the size he was 10 years ago. Why did his head grow 3 hat sizes? Why is there such a dramatic inverse correlation between homeruns and stolen bases on this stats? Why were his batting average and slugging percentages between 2000 and 2004 higher than they ever were in his previous 15 seasons?
If you want to talk about numbers you better fucking look at them first.
FFS.... his head is the same size it's always been. See it's shit like that, someone says it, everyone believes it....
As for the rest, he got bigger, so what? Lots of people get bigger as they get older. If you want to compare stats like that... check out Hank Aaron's... or Roger Maris...
FFS.... his head is the same size it's always been. See it's shit like that, someone says it, everyone believes it....
As for the rest, he got bigger, so what? Lots of people get bigger as they get older. If you want to compare stats like that... check out Hank Aaron's... or Roger Maris...
Bigger? He doubled in size! His feet grew! Also I did check out Hank Aaron's stats and his BA and HR count was very consistent throughout his career and then trailed off as he got older. Unlike Bonds who went from well-balanced player to super slugger overnight.
As for Maris his career as a hitter was no where near as impressive as Aaron's or Ruth's. He only had two seasons as a top home run hitter and in '61 he was actually chasing the record alongside Micky Mantle (who hit 54 that year). And the fan favorite Mantle was the one everyone thought would do it. Maris was an unexpected and somewhat unwanted surprise that year.
Yeah, I don't see how you can say Bonds' huge growth at his age was.. normal. I suppose it could happen normally, but for the most part that just doesn't happen.
ShimSham on
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DynagripBreak me a million heartsHoustonRegistered User, ClubPAregular
The Bond's thing wouldn't bother me so much if there was someone else more legit to root for. I mean I don't think there's any denying that Bonds was pretty good even before he got all big and such but yeah. If he breaks it, and they really get ahold of the HGH problem, then it might be that no one ever breaks that record again.
Who gives a fuck about Bonds? How many other players do you think have juiced? You know a shitload of pitchers have, but they're untouchable for some reason, probably because they're white. I mean look at Clemens. Fuck that guy. His "amazing workout regime" probably consists of just as many creams, clears, needles and pills as Bonds'...but Roger will never be the focus of a congressional witch hunt.
Are you honestly trying to imply that Bonds is being targeted by the feds because he's black?
That would be correct. It must be nice wearing ivory tinted glasses.
Now his feet grew too? :roll: Seriously, I'm not saying he's a saint, but show me the proof of these things, otherwise I'm just tired of hearing all the speculation and wild accusations without an ounce of proof.
If they can prove he did steroids, then do it. Otherwise get off his jock. That goes for all players and this whole mess too... I mean this country has a lot bigger issues facing it than what a consenting adult put in his own body so that he could hit a ball over a fence with a stick...
By the way, Albert Pujols was on-pace to break the 73 HR record last year, before he got hurt. So is he on roids too?
jwalk on
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Metzger MeisterIt Gets Worsebefore it gets any better.Registered Userregular
edited March 2007
So... the A's. I fucking love the A's. They take the lowest payed team in the major leagues and they fucking ROCK with them.
Also, I'm not that into baseball.
Edit: jwalk, you're forgetting dude, 'roids may not be against the rules, but they are against the fucking law. And last I checked, federal law trumps major league baseball's rules quite soundly.
I love baseball, but I always have a hard time getting excited about spring training 'cause basketball is still going on and the rockets are actually doing well this year
Whippy on
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Metzger MeisterIt Gets Worsebefore it gets any better.Registered Userregular
edited March 2007
I used to really look up to Barry Bonds when I was little and played baseball myself. Now I'm just like because this whole scandal, whether or not he actually used steroids, has killed his career in the sense that he will never be considered GREAT.
Also, Look at his face in the second pic. He's just so happy.
So what, so is speeding. So now we're gonna throw every player out of baseball who gets a speeding ticket?
Anyway the designer stuff like Balco was making isn't illegal technically, until it's scheduled. That's the whole point of designer drugs really. Though, now they have laws against steroids "precursors" trying to address that situation...
I just think its much ado about nothing. Yeah ok steriods are bad if abused (they have incredibly good properties too if used right, and are legal with a precription... let's not forget) but like I said these are consenting adults putting stuff in their own damn bodies that they want..
I don't see people complaining that Ms. American Idol's tits aren't real so we should take back her crown and shit...
jwalk on
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Metzger MeisterIt Gets Worsebefore it gets any better.Registered Userregular
edited March 2007
... Ms. America.
Not Miss American Idol...
Miss America.
Also, steroids are a controlled substance, which makes it a federal crime, which speeding is not!
Guys, it's ok. Bonds just tested positive for steroids but he never knowingly took them. He just rubbed this mysterious cream all over himself and took drops of some liquid. It's all ok because he didn't know it was steroids, im sure you would all put the same things in your body without question if a friend gave them to you.
why are you guys talking about baseball like it's an actual event
Kuribo's Shoe on
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Metzger MeisterIt Gets Worsebefore it gets any better.Registered Userregular
edited March 2007
A-HA! MM - 1 SS - 0
Now allow me to trot around the bases at a leisurely pace, waving my cap jauntily at the crowd.
Story time: I used to go to this school for kids who were too unbalanced or defiant for regular school. They took everyone from 7-12th grades, and I was in 7th at the time. About the beginning of second semester, the word "gay", as being used to describe something lame or retarded was officially banned. So, thinking quickly, one of the older students looked up a word that described something being "gay", usually in the traditional way. And so, we began using the word jaunty. Example: "Man, this story by Emily Dickinson is jaunty as fuck."
I don't even dislike Bonds really, I do think that at some points in his career he took some iffy substances to increase his performance knowingly or not. I think other players did too, it happened. But him taking it is the most notable since he has a strong possibility of breaking THE record in baseball and possibly making it nearly unattainable.
Posts
ERA is meaningless to me. In 1986, he would have had an ERA around 0 if he pitched in the Astros current ballpark.
I'm talking about his raw stuff, which has declined. Not significantly, he can still bring it, but he's no longer blowing guys away with 99-100 mph fastballs, or throwing 9 inning complete games with 15+ strikeouts. He can't do that anymore.
okay but era isn't meaningless to everyone else, so uh, yeah.
But it should be. Good pitchers can get high ERA's on bad defensive teams and in small ballparks, and average pitchers can get great ERA's on good defensive teams in big ballparks. This is not uncommon.
Same thing with wins. I was so pissed when Zito won the Cy Young with 24 wins over Pedro with 20, even though Pedro had more strikeouts, better hits per 9, much lower ERA in a smaller ballpark on a shitty defensive team, less homeruns allowed, less walks allowed, and a much better WHIP.
Anyway, whatever. lol
That's bullshit. This was, in fact, the first time in MLB history that the pitcher with the lowest ERA and most strikeouts did not win the Cy Young, but pitchers that do not lead in wins win the award all the time (even Pedro did in 1997).
Tom Seaver in 1973
Bruce Sutter (relief pitcher) in 1979
Fernando Valenzuela in 1981
Rick Sutcliff in 1984
Randy Johnson in 1999 AND 2000
I could go on, but you get my point.
Wins may be important for the TEAM, but they're meaningless for the Cy Young award, because they are largely outside of the pitchers control. If one guy loses a game 1-0, and another guy wins 10-9, the win may be more important for the team, but guy A clearly PITCHED better.
Get off Bonds' jock already.
Yeah he can be surly but so what? He's not paid to be nice, he's paid to hit a ball over a fence with a stick. Having watched him in SF for about 15 years now I can tell you right now that half the shit that's said about him he doesn't deserve. Yeah maybe the other half is somewhat true but again, so f'in what?
Do you seriously think you would NOT be standoff-ish to the media if they had treated you as badly as they treat him? Publishing every sordid detail of his affair and divorce (what's that got to do with baseball again?? oh right, nothing)... Making his dad's alcoholism a daily subject in the papers... Making all kinds of wild accusations without ANY shred of proof (what happened to journalistic integrity??)
Feh, I'd be pissed off too.
Fact is, he's not a bad person. He gets along JUST FINE with his teammates, despite with the blowdried airheads on ESPN want you to think. The fact is, they have to sell papers / get ratings and bashing Bonds has become the trendy thing to do. They just need something to write about.... Yeah he can be pretty cocky sometimes, but he's also the best... he can back his shit up too. Know who else was always pretty cocky? WILLIE F'ing MAYS. Hell, he still speaks highly of himself, and why not, he was the BEST there ever was, he's got a right to be that way...
So, do I think Bonds is a cheater? Well... define "cheating". If it means, "broke the rules of baseball" ... the NO he fucking didn't, since there were no rules against steroids until 2003 - AND he's passed every test he's taken since then. Check his 2004 stats.. HMMM he broke his own records for HR per at-bat that year WHILE being tested at least twice that we know of (fact). Barry Bonds doesn't need steroids to hit a home run. Guys like Canseco might, but Barry f'in Bonds does not, and he's proven that.
Not to mention.. if he was doing 'roids back then (and I think its likely that he was, but again it wasn't against the rules...) how many other players were also? How many pitchers?? I mean shit, before we talk about taking away his HR records, maybe we should look at how many pitchers he faced during that "era" that were on the 'roids? Maybe we should be ADDING home runs to his total instead of subtracting?
Or, maybe we should just realize that he's the best hitter of our generation, maybe the best ever, and get off his f'n jock...
How many more hundreds of millions of taxpayers dollars are we going to allow Jeff Novitsky - himself a failed athlete who once worked out at the same gym as Bonds, and Giambi, and is just jealous of them. ... to waste before we say ENOUGH ALREADY!
Wow.
Just wow.
Stats don't lie chief.
Hey Marathon
did you
did you see the game yesterday
did you
Hey. Hey.
No.
Frank Thomas was the dude I looked up to when I was a kid. If only he'd retired instead of going to the A's...
I still love the White Sox, though. I'm wearing a Sox jersey right now!
The AL Central is gonna be tough as fuck this season.
In time it'll be Pujols. He's a batting genius.
t jwalk: Did Bonds need roids to hit HRs? No. Did he need them after 1998 to hit enough to break records? Yes. You think he didn't need roids to hit home runs. Then why the fuck is he on them? Why is he twice the size he was 10 years ago. Why did his head grow 3 hat sizes? Why is there such a dramatic inverse correlation between homeruns and stolen bases on this stats? Why were his batting average and slugging percentages between 2000 and 2004 higher than they ever were in his previous 15 seasons?
If you want to talk about numbers you better fucking look at them first.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bondsba01.shtml
Just don't mention the Joe Nathan for A.J. Perzinski trade... O_o
As for the rest, he got bigger, so what? Lots of people get bigger as they get older. If you want to compare stats like that... check out Hank Aaron's... or Roger Maris...
Bigger? He doubled in size! His feet grew! Also I did check out Hank Aaron's stats and his BA and HR count was very consistent throughout his career and then trailed off as he got older. Unlike Bonds who went from well-balanced player to super slugger overnight.
As for Maris his career as a hitter was no where near as impressive as Aaron's or Ruth's. He only had two seasons as a top home run hitter and in '61 he was actually chasing the record alongside Micky Mantle (who hit 54 that year). And the fan favorite Mantle was the one everyone thought would do it. Maris was an unexpected and somewhat unwanted surprise that year.
If they can prove he did steroids, then do it. Otherwise get off his jock. That goes for all players and this whole mess too... I mean this country has a lot bigger issues facing it than what a consenting adult put in his own body so that he could hit a ball over a fence with a stick...
Also, I'm not that into baseball.
Edit: jwalk, you're forgetting dude, 'roids may not be against the rules, but they are against the fucking law. And last I checked, federal law trumps major league baseball's rules quite soundly.
Also, Look at his face in the second pic. He's just so happy.
Anyway the designer stuff like Balco was making isn't illegal technically, until it's scheduled. That's the whole point of designer drugs really. Though, now they have laws against steroids "precursors" trying to address that situation...
I just think its much ado about nothing. Yeah ok steriods are bad if abused (they have incredibly good properties too if used right, and are legal with a precription... let's not forget) but like I said these are consenting adults putting stuff in their own damn bodies that they want..
I don't see people complaining that Ms. American Idol's tits aren't real so we should take back her crown and shit...
Not Miss American Idol...
Miss America.
Also, steroids are a controlled substance, which makes it a federal crime, which speeding is not!
Roids would be against the rules of the game, and the law, and it gives an unfair advantage.
Speeding is just breaking the law, and it's a very, very flexible law and in no way gives an advantage to a baseball player.
Now allow me to trot around the bases at a leisurely pace, waving my cap jauntily at the crowd.
Story time: I used to go to this school for kids who were too unbalanced or defiant for regular school. They took everyone from 7-12th grades, and I was in 7th at the time. About the beginning of second semester, the word "gay", as being used to describe something lame or retarded was officially banned. So, thinking quickly, one of the older students looked up a word that described something being "gay", usually in the traditional way. And so, we began using the word jaunty. Example: "Man, this story by Emily Dickinson is jaunty as fuck."
Also, that story was terrible and I apologize.
Records are made to be broken.
They're moving the team to Albuquerque
see
lol spider-man 8-bit bugs pop references cartoons anger lol
everyone love me because i don't love myself