Except that andro was a perfectly legal substance the season McGwire used it. Steroids and HGH have been banned for a long time.
Well if we're going to play semantics, Bonds has never been caught breaking a single rule, either. So just forget about it, right? McGwire didn't violate the rules in place at the time, neither has Bonds.
No -- the problem is that people are opposed to the way that steroids violate the spirit of fair competition, which andro does / did just as much, only in one instance one man was made a national hero and his andro was explained away, and in the other case a full-on fucking Congressional investigation was started to solve the "problem." I mean, I guess that could be because one guy had a nicer relationship with the media, but that seems like a pretty insignificant difference to result in such grossly different national reactions.
On January 11, 2007, the New York Daily News reported that Bonds had failed a test for amphetamines during the 2006 season. While Bonds was not suspended for any games under the MLB's new drug-testing policy, he was subjected to six further tests over the next six months, and a second positive test would have resulted in a 25-game suspension. Although media reports suggest that Bonds initially insisted that a substance taken from teammate Mark Sweeney's locker was to blame for the positive test.
On January 11, 2007, the New York Daily News reported that Bonds had failed a test for amphetamines during the 2006 season. While Bonds was not suspended for any games under the MLB's new drug-testing policy, he was subjected to six further tests over the next six months, and a second positive test would have resulted in a 25-game suspension. Although media reports suggest that Bonds initially insisted that a substance taken from teammate Mark Sweeney's locker was to blame for the positive test.
''I remember talking to [Hall of Famer] Willie Stargell and guys like that," said Arroyo, now aBoston Red Sox starting pitcher with a World Series ring. ''Those guys always used stuff, black beauties or whatever they heard was coming up from Mexico or wherever."
Seven years later, baseball continues to wrestle with a decades-long dependence on amphetamines, dangerous stimulants many major leaguers illicitly obtain and use to combat fatigue and tedium in their daily quest for a competitive edge.
While government and baseball officials remain focused on the steroid abuse that has roiled the $4 billion pastime, amphetamines continue to circulate unfettered in major league clubhouses, according to players, other baseball figures, and medical authorities close to the sport. Amphetamines, also known as ''greenies" or ''beans," remain nearly as common as chewing tobacco 35 years after Jim Bouton's book, "Ball Four," exposed their influence in baseball and the federal government banned their use without a prescription.
"Everybody's always looking for an edge," said Arroyo, who was interviewed about the general problem of amphetamine use in the league, and did not address behavior by any specific current players. "Whether it's greenies or caffeine or whatever, players want a little something to get them going. It's been around as long as the game has been around."
I mean yeah, Barry's denial was pathetic, but this is not the issue that started a Congressional inquiry, and this is really not the issue that have people up in arms over the man about. To top it off, MLB still has a good ol' boy policy where the first violation is supposed to remain private, but due to the on-going witch hunt after Barry Bonds, his "private" violation became headline news. How many other players you think have one strike for greenies on their record? I'd bet it's not a small number.
I forsee another season where I am ashamed to be an Orioles fan
I went to a game last year when I visited Baltimore
Camden Yards is a fantastic stadium
also there was a walk-off home run for the Orioles
which was nice
Yeah. I lived in baltimore as a kid so I went to games pretty frequently. The fans up there are pretty hardcore, which is why they still manage to bring in huge crowds every game despite major suckage. On the other hand, it doesn't really give them any motivation to improve the team if they're going to make boatloads of money regardless.
Raijin QuickfootI'm your Huckleberry YOU'RE NO DAISYRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited March 2007
It's a wasted discussion. Unless they can go back and find out exactly who was juicing and who wasn't it is all pretty meaningless. What they should do is say, "We fucked up. We're sorry." and work on cleaning up the game for the future. Bonds breaks the record, he deserves to be in the record book because he was facing juiced pitching. Not to mention the fact that regardless of how much steroids he was doing the guy is a fucking amazing hitter.
It's a wasted discussion. Unless they can go back and find out exactly who was juicing and who wasn't it is all pretty meaningless. What they should do is say, "We fucked up. We're sorry." and work on cleaning up the game for the future. Bonds breaks the record, he deserves to be in the record book because he was facing juiced pitching. Not to mention the fact that regardless of how much steroids he was doing the guy is a fucking amazing hitter.
That's how I feel about it, really, but I can't help myself when people vilify Bonds. He's not the problem, the prevailing culture in place during the Steroid Era is the problem.
Exactly... mistakes were made, fine. We fucked up, we're sorry. There's even evidence to suggest that steroid use in MLB goes way back to the 60s and that Hank Aaron himself may have even been juicing. It's almost taken for granted that he and a lot of players then and since were on "greenies". But who knows really, unless someone invents a time machine and we can go back and test them, we'll never know the full story.
They have rules now, they are testing now, and anyone who gets caught has to face the penalties, 'nuff said.
In other words, I'm not here to talk about the past.
As for the present and future, I predict Bonds will break the record, and that he will put on a clinic entitled "how to dominate when you're 43". 8-)
There's even evidence to suggest that steroid use in MLB goes way back to the 60s and that Hank Aaron himself may have even been juicing. It's almost taken for granted that he and a lot of players then and since were on "greenies".
The greenies I have no problem with, but are there actually sources to go with this "Aaron was on 'roids" theory?
There's even evidence to suggest that steroid use in MLB goes way back to the 60s and that Hank Aaron himself may have even been juicing. It's almost taken for granted that he and a lot of players then and since were on "greenies".
The greenies I have no problem with, but are there actually sources to go with this "Aaron was on 'roids" theory?
Just this article I read a few weeks ago on the Giants board.
No clue if the guy is full of shit, but I guess the quotes could be traced back and verified.
Interesting stuff, at the least.
Yeah I might be a little biased. But I'm not blind. Ok Bonds probably did steroids. So what? Lotta players probably did. Unless you can prove it - and the Feds have spent $100 million taxpayer's dollars trying to prove it with Bonds and so far got nothin... then what's the point in all the jibba jabba?
I don't got time for no jibba jabba.
jwalk on
0
Raijin QuickfootI'm your Huckleberry YOU'RE NO DAISYRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited March 2007
I think it is pretty foolish to assume this shit wasn't going on in the old days. I'm not saying it definitely was, but you have to wonder.
I think it is pretty foolish to assume this shit wasn't going on in the old days. I'm not saying it definitely was, but you have to wonder.
but how far back are we assuming?
Like, Babe Ruth old?
The Bambino wasn't built like he was on steroids, that's for sure.
Just 'cause the guy had a penchant for overeating doesn't mean he wasn't as strong as an ox.
I really hate comparing old baseball to modern baseball. The parks are different, the players are different, the balls are different, the bats are different, everything is different.
In Babe Ruth's day, a ball that bounced over the outfield fence, what today would be a "ground rule double", was considered a "home run". It had to be a fair ball of course, and it had to travel a certain distance before bouncing, like 250 feet or something, but it's true. This rule wasn't in effect his entire career, but it was for a good portion... 5-10 years?
Now, people have gone back through the newspapers and accounts of the games/etc and not found any definite cases where this was known to actually happen on one of the Babe's homers, but it is possible.
So yeah, in addition to everything else.... better sports training and medicine, better conditioning and diet and.... it's a little silly to hold all these records as "sacred" or to think they could never be, or should never be broken. The human body is evolving, medicine and technology is getting better every day. There's no reason to think the records these guys are setting today won't be shattered in 20 years.. and shattered again in 30 years, and again....
In Babe Ruth's day, a ball that bounced over the outfield fence, what today would be a "ground rule double", was considered a "home run". It had to be a fair ball of course, and it had to travel a certain distance before bouncing, like 250 feet or something, but it's true. This rule wasn't in effect his entire career, but it was for a good portion... 5-10 years?
Now, people have gone back through the newspapers and accounts of the games/etc and not found any definite cases where this was known to actually happen on one of the Babe's homers, but it is possible.
So yeah, in addition to everything else.... better sports training and medicine, better conditioning and diet and.... it's a little silly to hold all these records as "sacred" or to think they could never be, or should never be broken. The human body is evolving, medicine and technology is getting better every day. There's no reason to think the records these guys are setting today won't be shattered in 20 years.. and shattered again in 30 years, and again....
Cyborgs.
Or is it Androids?
Scrumtrulescent on
0
Raijin QuickfootI'm your Huckleberry YOU'RE NO DAISYRegistered User, ClubPAregular
In Babe Ruth's day, a ball that bounced over the outfield fence, what today would be a "ground rule double", was considered a "home run". It had to be a fair ball of course, and it had to travel a certain distance before bouncing, like 250 feet or something, but it's true. This rule wasn't in effect his entire career, but it was for a good portion... 5-10 years?
Now, people have gone back through the newspapers and accounts of the games/etc and not found any definite cases where this was known to actually happen on one of the Babe's homers, but it is possible.
So yeah, in addition to everything else.... better sports training and medicine, better conditioning and diet and.... it's a little silly to hold all these records as "sacred" or to think they could never be, or should never be broken. The human body is evolving, medicine and technology is getting better every day. There's no reason to think the records these guys are setting today won't be shattered in 20 years.. and shattered again in 30 years, and again....
In Babe Ruth's day, a ball that bounced over the outfield fence, what today would be a "ground rule double", was considered a "home run". It had to be a fair ball of course, and it had to travel a certain distance before bouncing, like 250 feet or something, but it's true. This rule wasn't in effect his entire career, but it was for a good portion... 5-10 years?
Now, people have gone back through the newspapers and accounts of the games/etc and not found any definite cases where this was known to actually happen on one of the Babe's homers, but it is possible.
So yeah, in addition to everything else.... better sports training and medicine, better conditioning and diet and.... it's a little silly to hold all these records as "sacred" or to think they could never be, or should never be broken. The human body is evolving, medicine and technology is getting better every day. There's no reason to think the records these guys are setting today won't be shattered in 20 years.. and shattered again in 30 years, and again....
Or what about the 31 of 68 minor leaguers busted being pitchers? There's 8 other position players on the field, and only 1 pitcher, yet the pitchers comprise nearly 50% of all transgressions?
If you seriously believe that juicing is for batters only, and if you even for a moment don't think that Clemens is juiced out just as much, if not more than Barry, then you are being a little daft. Yet still, it's Barry that makes the headlines ... hmmmm ... hmmmm.
And really, what about when McGwire was openly on Andro chasing the record? Oh yeah, that's right he was applauded as a hero for his "brave" denial of the drug*. So yes, Barry is an asshole. That is fairly undeniable. But you can't deny that there has been an absolutely unreasonable amount of attention paid to him and solely him, that is somehow absent when other (white) players are also chasing records, and are just as obviously juicing (I mean it was public fucking knowledge with McGwire!). So spin it how you want, but the whole Barry case is just pretty fucking dumb.
*after he had broken the record, much to America's adulation, and cemented his place in the hearts and minds of baseball fans
Use doesn't necessarily mean results. Pitchers do a LOT of stupid things that they think will increase their performance (like long toss, for instance).
However, if it is discovered that the 'roids DO increase pitching performance, I gotta get me some of those! My 82 mph fastball in high school could be 90, and I could be getting paid stacks of cash! </joke>
There's even evidence to suggest that steroid use in MLB goes way back to the 60s and that Hank Aaron himself may have even been juicing. It's almost taken for granted that he and a lot of players then and since were on "greenies".
The greenies I have no problem with, but are there actually sources to go with this "Aaron was on 'roids" theory?
Just this article I read a few weeks ago on the Giants board.
No clue if the guy is full of shit, but I guess the quotes could be traced back and verified.
Interesting stuff, at the least.
Yeah I might be a little biased. But I'm not blind. Ok Bonds probably did steroids. So what? Lotta players probably did. Unless you can prove it - and the Feds have spent $100 million taxpayer's dollars trying to prove it with Bonds and so far got nothin... then what's the point in all the jibba jabba?
I don't got time for no jibba jabba.
I wouldn't say "so what", but rather say something along the lines of "Bond's is no more guilty than everyone else." To say "so what" implies that it's okay that he and a bunch of other players are doing steroids, when it is definitely not.
I just hope testing becomes more rigorous and we can just stop hearing about 'roids everytime someone is approaching some record or anything special. It's just irritating.
I'm pretty sick of this. He's not struggling. Lord, put him on any other team and he's their star player.
Anyways, he's .360 with 5 homers after 6 games.
In my defense I made this thread back in early March, if not before and I meant (though it's not really apparent) more about his struggles with the fans and whatnot. Plus there was that very bad rough patch he went through in the middle of last season that is still pretty fresh on peoples' minds, though with his very recent performances he's starting to make people forget.
Posts
No -- the problem is that people are opposed to the way that steroids violate the spirit of fair competition, which andro does / did just as much, only in one instance one man was made a national hero and his andro was explained away, and in the other case a full-on fucking Congressional investigation was started to solve the "problem." I mean, I guess that could be because one guy had a nicer relationship with the media, but that seems like a pretty insignificant difference to result in such grossly different national reactions.
also go blue jays!
or war
we're pretty good at that
I went to a game last year when I visited Baltimore
Camden Yards is a fantastic stadium
also there was a walk-off home run for the Orioles
which was nice
I mean yeah, Barry's denial was pathetic, but this is not the issue that started a Congressional inquiry, and this is really not the issue that have people up in arms over the man about. To top it off, MLB still has a good ol' boy policy where the first violation is supposed to remain private, but due to the on-going witch hunt after Barry Bonds, his "private" violation became headline news. How many other players you think have one strike for greenies on their record? I'd bet it's not a small number.
Yeah. I lived in baltimore as a kid so I went to games pretty frequently. The fans up there are pretty hardcore, which is why they still manage to bring in huge crowds every game despite major suckage. On the other hand, it doesn't really give them any motivation to improve the team if they're going to make boatloads of money regardless.
Head over to the D&D fantasy baseball thread for details if you are interested. We'd love to have you.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/registry/wishlist/1JI9WWSRW1YJI
aaaaand none left now. Woot!
https://www.amazon.com/gp/registry/wishlist/1JI9WWSRW1YJI
Fix'd
And I think that may make him the best hitter of his generation.
They have rules now, they are testing now, and anyone who gets caught has to face the penalties, 'nuff said.
In other words, I'm not here to talk about the past.
As for the present and future, I predict Bonds will break the record, and that he will put on a clinic entitled "how to dominate when you're 43". 8-)
or
"How I learned to stop worrying and love steroids"
The greenies I have no problem with, but are there actually sources to go with this "Aaron was on 'roids" theory?
not really
I just wanted to spoof How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Atomic Bomb.
Pretty sure there's no Atomic in there.
I was thinking this but I already typed Atomic and was much too lazy to go back
also, jwalk, don't you think there's a tiny bit of bias here what with you being a Giants fan?
No clue if the guy is full of shit, but I guess the quotes could be traced back and verified.
Interesting stuff, at the least.
Yeah I might be a little biased. But I'm not blind. Ok Bonds probably did steroids. So what? Lotta players probably did. Unless you can prove it - and the Feds have spent $100 million taxpayer's dollars trying to prove it with Bonds and so far got nothin... then what's the point in all the jibba jabba?
I don't got time for no jibba jabba.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/registry/wishlist/1JI9WWSRW1YJI
but how far back are we assuming?
Like, Babe Ruth old?
The Bambino wasn't built like he was on steroids, that's for sure.
Just 'cause the guy had a penchant for overeating doesn't mean he wasn't as strong as an ox.
I really hate comparing old baseball to modern baseball. The parks are different, the players are different, the balls are different, the bats are different, everything is different.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/registry/wishlist/1JI9WWSRW1YJI
Now, people have gone back through the newspapers and accounts of the games/etc and not found any definite cases where this was known to actually happen on one of the Babe's homers, but it is possible.
So yeah, in addition to everything else.... better sports training and medicine, better conditioning and diet and.... it's a little silly to hold all these records as "sacred" or to think they could never be, or should never be broken. The human body is evolving, medicine and technology is getting better every day. There's no reason to think the records these guys are setting today won't be shattered in 20 years.. and shattered again in 30 years, and again....
Cyborgs.
Or is it Androids?
Close...
https://www.amazon.com/gp/registry/wishlist/1JI9WWSRW1YJI
Beat'd
Use doesn't necessarily mean results. Pitchers do a LOT of stupid things that they think will increase their performance (like long toss, for instance).
However, if it is discovered that the 'roids DO increase pitching performance, I gotta get me some of those! My 82 mph fastball in high school could be 90, and I could be getting paid stacks of cash! </joke>
I wouldn't say "so what", but rather say something along the lines of "Bond's is no more guilty than everyone else." To say "so what" implies that it's okay that he and a bunch of other players are doing steroids, when it is definitely not.
I just hope testing becomes more rigorous and we can just stop hearing about 'roids everytime someone is approaching some record or anything special. It's just irritating.
So last I heard, the Mets and Phil's were in the bottom of the 8th with the Phils leading by one run.
Then I check the score just now and the final score was 11-5 Mets.
Damn Mets. But, the Braves won the series with them so... that's great.
I'm pretty sick of this. He's not struggling. Lord, put him on any other team and he's their star player.
Anyways, he's .360 with 5 homers after 6 games.