I think that in certain cases, like this, it's best to deceive a player to get them to play to the role.
Like, I'm not sure how, but I would basically tell the rac5s in this that they can't win if converted, because if they can then the best strategy is to contact the mafia ASAP and just swap over.
Hmm. Not sure about that first part.
Phalla can be such a confusing game just trying to figure out the host's mechanics, much less the roles & other craziness, like an RPG that has hidden rules, kind of.
Of course, that's what some players love.
Others don't.
I'm in the middle.
Secondly, I wish I knew a mafia player that would've converted me.
Sure, I could reveal in thread and then get voted out by the village, and who could blame them.
I just didn't see many opportunities to abuse the info.
Well ideally the game is designed so that it isn't broken if one side decides to aggressively play for conversions. I don't think this particular game was the case, though it didn't happen.
Yeah, I'm going to chime in that I thought all throughout the game that, if I was a RAC protein, I would be trying to get converted ASAP.
In the future, I might have more Rac1s, or make it so that Rac1s died normally like everyone else, but make the main mafia kill count as an attack/conversion, but make you declare if the extra, point-based kill was a kill or a conversion, which does nothing to the WBC. In addition, this method would make seering more desirable.
The mechanics felt like they'd be fun to play through a second/third/whatever time (with tweaks/minor changes to keep everyone frosty), so they're probably work for Mask. Otherwise, this was one of those that felt like a bit of a cluster the first time.
The only thing to keep in mind is that these type of mechanics scale. If I had 50 or 60 people, my plan actually gets much better and is just as easy, so the village would still have narrowed everything down 3-4 days in, but if the mafia couldn't win for 5-6 days, you'd be toast
What was the thing that MrT had "not be be cocky, but I thought of everything" was about anyway?
Also, it was nice to see an appearance of the hyperanalytical active phyphor, that's always a treat
What was the thing that MrT had "not be be cocky, but I thought of everything" was about anyway?
My point (that I couldn't state before the game) was that random assignment, along with proscribed rules after hitting, would not be enough to almost surely guarantee a village victory because of the previously unknown guard mechanic. People had to network and attempt to centralize information.
Yes, you could cross-reference who attacked who. Mafia claims would show up pretty quickly. Accounting for guards all you have to do is split the player list into two or three or whatever and attack segments, I was considering doing that to start with anyway
Yes, you could cross-reference who attacked who. Mafia claims would show up pretty quickly. Accounting for guards all you have to do is split the player list into two or three or whatever and attack segments, I was considering doing that to start with anyway
Wouldn't mafia claims be indistinguishable from RAC1 protein claims?
They couldn't ever claim to attack each other or they'd be caught out. You'd need a bit more data but you could isolate a group that never attacked each other, which is rather unlikely to occur randomly. Then you ask them to provide their key to generate their attack sequence. Then they need to look for a bunch of somethings that will generate an attack sequence that avoids all of them
With my rudimentary level of statistics intuition, im being told that you'd need atleast several days worth of attacks (if not tens) before any group emerges. Not to mention that people aren't generating data while dead. Im not convinced that that wins the game before all the proteins are gone. Especially since each protein has a ~20% of being converted each night (due to chance of claiming an attack on a mafia)
It's certainly not an optimal plan, but it has the advantage of making the mafia uncertain of what to do - they have no idea who is getting attacked, or how many times. It's not based on suspiciousness or anything, so even if they have oneuse guards, the best they could hope to do in the long run is block approximately (% of mafia guarded / average attacks)% of incoming kills
Well, you don't do it publically unless you have enough data to analyze to solve the entire thing in one night, you do need a more or less trusted person to collect it, which you can get by calling for a bunch of people to attack you
Once you get a trusted network head you probably don't need that much data. I haven't actually calculated the statistic but I'm guessing only about 1/2 to 2/3 of the white blood cell kill orders went in per night. But even with that Baidol and Phyphor were able to narrow it down to just a few suspects (so few that they were guaranteed victory in 2 days).
It's definitely very powerful with perfect trust, and I think I really underestimated the probability that that would happen. The % of players that have this ability (if it makes it to the main) will definitely be much much smaller than it was here (2/3).
0
Options
AssuranIs swinging on the SpiralRegistered Userregular
Man, only 1/3 to 2/3 of the WBC actually used their abilities? What the heck? It's the only thing we had to do all game.
AssuranIs swinging on the SpiralRegistered Userregular
Also, having fully awakened now and rereading the last 4 pages, I agree that their has to be some sort of disincentive for Rac1's not to all just publicly reveal and ask for mafia indoctrination. If that's the easiest way for them to win, the village couldn't possibly have stopped it.
Between this game and the ME game, I've learned conversions have to be handled with the utmost care if you include them in base phalla (a good thing to learn, given my Star Wars work in progress).
0
Options
ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
Also, having fully awakened now and rereading the last 4 pages, I agree that their has to be some sort of disincentive for Rac1's not to all just publicly reveal and ask for mafia indoctrination. If that's the easiest way for them to win, the village couldn't possibly have stopped it.
Between this game and the ME game, I've learned conversions have to be handled with the utmost care if you include them in base phalla (a good thing to learn, given my Star Wars work in progress).
:shock: :shock: :shock:
WHAT?!?
Can I pre-sign up?
edit: oh man, please don't use this as a way to get back at me for this game...
edit2: if you need help with ideas, I would love to help, also.
They couldn't ever claim to attack each other or they'd be caught out. You'd need a bit more data but you could isolate a group that never attacked each other, which is rather unlikely to occur randomly.
I don't think this is true. With 30 people picking each other randomly, the probability that there exists a group of 4 that hasn't targeted each other after 6 days is nearly 1 (it may actually be 1, I haven't thought through it, just ran simulations and it happened in 5000 out of 5000 trials), even though the probability that any given group of 4 hasn't attacked each other is quite low (around 7%).
The whole thing with the rac1 proteins revealing to try to get converted is interesting; this actually happened en masse in Color Wheel Phalla, pretty much precluding any chance of a white victory.
One solution I've thought about for games like these is to use Major/Minor Victory conditions.
Basically every player in the game has a major victory condition, the standard village vs. mafia stuff or what have you.
The convertable roles have their default major victory condition, and are told if they are converted they have failed their major victory condition and will receive a minor victory condition.
I think the emotive distinction between receiving a "major victory" and "minor victory" would really help players play to their current win condition. Losing a bit of glory would be enough to stop players from playing against their win condition whilst unconverted, and if you do just randomly get converted you're not going to feel particularly bad about just getting a minor victory at the end of it; it's not really your fault. What do you think?
(It should be noted you wouldn't want to use this system in a game where a player doesn't know they can be converted and thus wouldn't have reason to seek out a conversion).
Rawkking Goodguy on
0
Options
AssuranIs swinging on the SpiralRegistered Userregular
edit: oh man, please don't use this as a way to get back at me for this game...
edit2: if you need help with ideas, I would love to help, also.
What kind of host would I be if I let grudges color my view of who got which roles in a phalla?. I'll let the almighty RNG handle things, with a little help from you guys (i.e. stealing Baidol's ME vote idea).
Though, you will be my next day 1, don't worry about that. ;p
I think that the fact that deaths were intended to be low and that we lost on day 4 says something about the balance but, it also seems the mafia got a bit lucky in their targeting.
Why did Obi not die on day 1, since that is who I attacked.
They couldn't ever claim to attack each other or they'd be caught out. You'd need a bit more data but you could isolate a group that never attacked each other, which is rather unlikely to occur randomly.
I don't think this is true. With 30 people picking each other randomly, the probability that there exists a group of 4 that hasn't targeted each other after 6 days is nearly 1 (it may actually be 1, I haven't thought through it, just ran simulations and it happened in 5000 out of 5000 trials), even though the probability that any given group of 4 hasn't attacked each other is quite low (around 7%).
True, I was thinking more of a main sized game that lasted longer, allows for better connectivity in the graph, though missing days from being dead would also cause this issue... It's not like we're analyzing in a vacuum though, if you want to do it properly you have to treat the game as a directed graph, with the attacks being the edges and manage a Bayesian probability that each vertex is telling the truth. I've been thinking of doing a simulator to account for strategy and partial information, this might make a good test game for that
I think that the fact that deaths were intended to be low and that we lost on day 4 says something about the balance but, it also seems the mafia got a bit lucky in their targeting.
Why did Obi not die on day 1, since that is who I attacked.
we guarded everyone but nirya. we would have needed two hits on any mafia target to go down.
I did attack Nirya, mwahaha. My phyphor algorithm keyword was "poop." Just a lucky keyword I guess.
I was actually more surprised that you weren't voted out the day after I came up dead as a WBC. In a very small pool of people (3 at the most, but 2 was more likely), that COULD have been mafia, you start the wagon on one that turns out to be village. Maybe it was my unique perspective, but I wanted to buy ad space on prime time television strongly suggesting to the village that Nirya and you enjoyed long walks on the beach and being mafia.
ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
edited March 2012
I think people ignored a lot of what I did because I was new. And I made sure to remind people of that a lot. And I acted like I didn't know the mechanics.
But, I thought for sure I was going down after it was revealed you were a villager. I was pleasantly surprised when Void Slayer took the fall AND ended up being a protein.
I think people ignored a lot of what I did because I was new. And I made sure to remind people of that a lot. And I acted like I didn't know the mechanics..
Posts
Yup, being proactive means you get to be on the winning team!
Hmm. Not sure about that first part.
Phalla can be such a confusing game just trying to figure out the host's mechanics, much less the roles & other craziness, like an RPG that has hidden rules, kind of.
Of course, that's what some players love.
Others don't.
I'm in the middle.
Secondly, I wish I knew a mafia player that would've converted me.
Sure, I could reveal in thread and then get voted out by the village, and who could blame them.
I just didn't see many opportunities to abuse the info.
The Black Hole of Cygnus X-1
In the future, I might have more Rac1s, or make it so that Rac1s died normally like everyone else, but make the main mafia kill count as an attack/conversion, but make you declare if the extra, point-based kill was a kill or a conversion, which does nothing to the WBC. In addition, this method would make seering more desirable.
Twitch Stream
Also, it was nice to see an appearance of the hyperanalytical active phyphor, that's always a treat
My point (that I couldn't state before the game) was that random assignment, along with proscribed rules after hitting, would not be enough to almost surely guarantee a village victory because of the previously unknown guard mechanic. People had to network and attempt to centralize information.
It's definitely very powerful with perfect trust, and I think I really underestimated the probability that that would happen. The % of players that have this ability (if it makes it to the main) will definitely be much much smaller than it was here (2/3).
Between this game and the ME game, I've learned conversions have to be handled with the utmost care if you include them in base phalla (a good thing to learn, given my Star Wars work in progress).
:shock: :shock: :shock:
WHAT?!?
Can I pre-sign up?
edit: oh man, please don't use this as a way to get back at me for this game...
edit2: if you need help with ideas, I would love to help, also.
I don't think this is true. With 30 people picking each other randomly, the probability that there exists a group of 4 that hasn't targeted each other after 6 days is nearly 1 (it may actually be 1, I haven't thought through it, just ran simulations and it happened in 5000 out of 5000 trials), even though the probability that any given group of 4 hasn't attacked each other is quite low (around 7%).
One solution I've thought about for games like these is to use Major/Minor Victory conditions.
Basically every player in the game has a major victory condition, the standard village vs. mafia stuff or what have you.
The convertable roles have their default major victory condition, and are told if they are converted they have failed their major victory condition and will receive a minor victory condition.
I think the emotive distinction between receiving a "major victory" and "minor victory" would really help players play to their current win condition. Losing a bit of glory would be enough to stop players from playing against their win condition whilst unconverted, and if you do just randomly get converted you're not going to feel particularly bad about just getting a minor victory at the end of it; it's not really your fault. What do you think?
(It should be noted you wouldn't want to use this system in a game where a player doesn't know they can be converted and thus wouldn't have reason to seek out a conversion).
What kind of host would I be if I let grudges color my view of who got which roles in a phalla?. I'll let the almighty RNG handle things, with a little help from you guys (i.e. stealing Baidol's ME vote idea).
Though, you will be my next day 1, don't worry about that. ;p
I was disturbingly inactive this game, unfortunately. Kind of embarrassing
3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
Steam profile
I think that the fact that deaths were intended to be low and that we lost on day 4 says something about the balance but, it also seems the mafia got a bit lucky in their targeting.
Why did Obi not die on day 1, since that is who I attacked.
True, I was thinking more of a main sized game that lasted longer, allows for better connectivity in the graph, though missing days from being dead would also cause this issue... It's not like we're analyzing in a vacuum though, if you want to do it properly you have to treat the game as a directed graph, with the attacks being the edges and manage a Bayesian probability that each vertex is telling the truth. I've been thinking of doing a simulator to account for strategy and partial information, this might make a good test game for that
we guarded everyone but nirya. we would have needed two hits on any mafia target to go down.
More like a build order win than anything.
_____________________________________________
HoTS: Schmutz#1686
If it makes you feel any better, I thought you had attacked Nirya. I thought I was protecting him.
I was actually more surprised that you weren't voted out the day after I came up dead as a WBC. In a very small pool of people (3 at the most, but 2 was more likely), that COULD have been mafia, you start the wagon on one that turns out to be village. Maybe it was my unique perspective, but I wanted to buy ad space on prime time television strongly suggesting to the village that Nirya and you enjoyed long walks on the beach and being mafia.
_____________________________________________
HoTS: Schmutz#1686
But, I thought for sure I was going down after it was revealed you were a villager. I was pleasantly surprised when Void Slayer took the fall AND ended up being a protein.
yeah, not gonna let that pass again haha
3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
Steam profile
And then changed my attack to Capfalcon thinking you were just being silly and new! Your strategy worked perfectly haha
3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
Steam profile
Its despicable.
But I was the one that decided to vote for the dead first, and I put up smoove's name as well.