Yeah I am not saying DC editorial is responsible for every single bad thing that has happened in the New 52, but being skeptical that there is any sort of issue backstage over there is just silly at this point. We have had several accounts from different creators all saying it is a shit show.
Her writing of her came off as schizophrenic, imo. Talking about how tough and smart she was then doing something stupid and acting like a victim in the next issue. Maybe arrogant is a better word.
I've read enough of her work to know Simone doesn't do anything inconsistently. Not if she can help it, at any rate. She's not arrogant, either.
I didn't say she was arrogant I said Babs was arrogant. As far as inconsistency, yes I would say she is inconsistent at times. By the time Secret Six ended the characters acted like caricatures of their former selves.
Until Simone just says "fuck it" and tells all of DC's secrets while jumping ship to marvel or image, I'm thinking there's a lot more to it than just editorial interference.
I'm not sure why you're giving editorial doubt over her.
I'm not saying DC's editorial is perfect or that they didn't have a hand in parts of the story but things like; bab's personality and dialogue read like simone's style, that's why I'm not sold on just blaming editorial.
I think Paul Cornell has committed the error of having a British attitude towards Unions in the US, there
not that he's wrong, everyone should be in Unions
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
Nope, sorry, not digging the union thing at all. And a few of those things Cornell is mentioning already happen in the industry, sans writers guild stuff.
It feels like this whole thing it taking a weird turn where it's about the rights of a writer versus the company and less about a creator being fired from a book which happens all the time. Yes it was selling well like many other books, but the book wasn't that good, and it's not like DC hasn't given Simone plenty of opportunities to write other things. I don't know how much of this is Simone's online presence blurring people's objectivity or what, but the company has the right to hire and fire at their discretion. Don't like it? Make it be known by not buying the book with the new writer.
I mean of all the entertainment mediums, comics are really, really good about letting individuals put out what they want because it has very little investment compared to film or even music (and even that's lowered with youtube and garage band).
See, this is why Cornell is foolish to bring up Unions in the US
some of you guys seem to go crazy at the mere mention of them
Unions are villified by pretty much every major corporation and Republican in the country.
Which is silly but people are dumb sometimes what are you gonna do.
In this situation a union would have helped because they would undoubtedly have a contract clauses in place should editorial choose to remove an author from a book. So at least Simone would have money while in-between jobs( I'm assuming she's not on other books based in the conversation)
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
Easy now Solar, don't strike or anything :rotate:
I just genuinely do not see how the creation of a comic union would benefit the industry as it stands today. Exclusive contracts give job security. Creators get credit/royalties for creations these days. Creator ownership comes down to the agreement for each company. If none of this appeals to you, creator owned is right there, and kickstarter and webcomics are always a click away.
Trying to kick creators off books in a union shop? Coupled with the inherent incestual nature of comics at the big 2? That would be a nightmare.
See, this is why Cornell is foolish to bring up Unions in the US
some of you guys seem to go crazy at the mere mention of them
Oh, Solar.
The free market solves everything.
The invisible hand of the free market removed Simone from a book that was clearly under-performing, while making sure that the writers of books that are meeting expectations, such as Demon Knights, Ravagers, All-Star Western, Firestorm, Legion of Superheroes, Stormwatch, Batwing, Deathstroke, and Hawkman got to keep their jobs.
I don't remember who said it, but I think it may've been BKV. Anyway, the difficulty with forming a comic book union is that it would be extremely easy to find scabs to replace striking writers. Fuck, I'm sure there're interns at DC who'd gladly skewer Simone and put her head on a pike for the chance to write Batgirl.
See, this is why Cornell is foolish to bring up Unions in the US
some of you guys seem to go crazy at the mere mention of them
Oh, Solar.
The free market solves everything.
The invisible hand of the free market removed Simone from a book that was clearly under-performing, while making sure that the writers of books that are meeting expectations, such as Demon Knights, Ravagers, All-Star Western, Firestorm, Legion of Superheroes, Stormwatch, Batwing, Deathstroke, and Hawkman got to keep their jobs.
Anyway IMO a union is not supposed to help the industry it is supposed to help those who work in the industry
given how contentious the issue of creators right and royalties are these days I'd say a writer would be wise to protect themselves with Union membership
that kind of thing increases the ethical strength of an industry and, as a consumer, I like to be buying things made by people who are not knob-heads in general
Also a well-managed Union does not damage an industry. The whole point of Unions is to protect their members from illegal activities made by employers and so on. No law-abiding company has anything to fear from a strong but competent Union.
I don't remember who said it, but I think it may've been BKV. Anyway, the difficulty with forming a comic book union is that it would be extremely easy to find scabs to replace striking writers. Fuck, I'm sure there're interns at DC who'd gladly skewer Simone and put her head on a pike for the chance to write Batgirl.
Much like any other business, the history of comics proves if someone has to backstab another be it a friend or fellow worker they'll do it for their own good.
By that I mean the fact that you just assumed anyone on the side of Unions think they solve all employment problems
which is a ridiculous assumption to make
it's like someone saying "we should legalize pot" and someone else saying "oh yeah because that'll solve all of societies problems!"
obviously not, and nobody suggested that they would
shake your head at people who thinks Unions are a Panacea if you wish
you aren't looking at anyone in this discussion, or Paul Cornell either for that matter
No, I'm not assuming that, but it does seem to be a common mentality. Seriously, I don't know if you read Trenches or any of the discussion threads about it on the Hub forum, but "Unions lol!" gets thrown out any time there is a particularly egregious games industry tale posted, usually with little or no thought put into whether it would actually solve the problem. Employees are getting a bad deal, therefore there needs to be a union. Unions protect employees, that is what unions do, right? Well, sometimes yes, sometimes no. It depends on the industry and union.
One chief difficulty with the idea of unionization in both the games and comics industries, already alluded to above, is that there will never be a shortage of new people willing to "scab" for a chance to break into what they think is their dream career.
(Or you'd have the opposite problem, which is that if there were some sort of union for comic creators, it could just make it even harder for young creators and independents to break into the industry and get recognized, since in many heavily unionized fields the union only really benefits those with seniority to the detriment of the people on the low end of the food chain.)
In this case I'm not even sure what wrong has been done that a union is needed to correct. A creator people liked lost her gig on a book. OK. Happens all the time. Sounds like they dropped the ball in giving her fair notice, which stinks. But we really have no idea what the causes were, and the creator herself told people to cool their outrage and that nobody is to blame or deserves to be vilified. What exactly are we grinding our axes over? We don't even know what the problem is here or even if a "problem" exists but we have people saying there needs to be unionization to solve it.
Gaslight on
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited December 2012
Maybe someone can help point out where in modern comics, say since 2000, there has been any kind of issues with creator rights where someone got screwed over. Gaiman/McFarlane went through the legal process. There's that thing with Archie and the Sonic writer, but I think that's it, and even there it's more a creator taking his ball and going home.
Also a well-managed Union does not damage an industry. The whole point of Unions is to protect their members from illegal activities made by employers and so on. No law-abiding company has anything to fear from a strong but competent Union.
I'm truly not trying to be snarky with this, but do you really expect a well-managed comic creator union? And where was anything illegal done with how Simone was fired? It was no different than how Dixon got tossed out of DC years ago, only in this case Simone seemed to be more loved by other creators and fans. And I definitely remember people crapping on Dixon for planning ahead on his book when Morrison was being Morrison and not keeping others in the loop with RIP.
Maybe someone can help point out where in modern comics, say since 2000, there has been any kind of issues with creator rights where someone got screwed over. Gaiman/McFarlane went through the legal process. There's that thing with Archie and the Sonic writer, but I think that's it, and even there it's more a creator taking his ball and going home.
Also a well-managed Union does not damage an industry. The whole point of Unions is to protect their members from illegal activities made by employers and so on. No law-abiding company has anything to fear from a strong but competent Union.
I'm truly not trying to be snarky with this, but do you really expect a well-managed comic creator union? And where was anything illegal done with how Simone was fired? It was no different than how Dixon got tossed out of DC years ago, only in this case Simone seemed to be more loved by other creators and fans. And I definitely remember people crapping on Dixon for planning ahead on his book when Morrison was being Morrison and not keeping others in the loop with RIP.
There was that business with Jim Starlin and Thanos' appearance in The Avengers.
And what's the current status quo with regards to royalties for digital reprints of Marvel and DC books?
TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited December 2012
That's right, but I don't know how much of that was Starlin simply saying "how about a little thank you gift" (which I agree with) and actual legal creator control.
As for royalties, I thought Marvel pays for a set amount of time (and I think digital is based on everything from 2009 forward or whenever they really started the digital thing), and DC seems to pay royalties in perpetuity, as long as it keeps being reprinted.
edit: googled this beat article during the digital slap fight a few years back, DC seems to say their digital stuff pays the same as print royalties.
Seriously, I don't know if you read Trenches or any of the discussion threads about it on the Hub forum, but "Unions lol!" gets thrown out any time there is a particularly egregious games industry tale posted, usually with little or no thought put into whether it would actually solve the problem. Employees are getting a bad deal, therefore there needs to be a union. Unions protect employees, that is what unions do, right? Well, sometimes yes, sometimes no. It depends on the industry and union.
I don't read Trenches because it's by Sohmer and Sohmer is a piece of shit. I also don't go on the Hub forum. And since neither Sohmer and the Hub forum are in evidence then maybe you should have specified that is what you are talking about. And Unions do protect employees. That is the whole point of a Union. A Union that doesn't protect employees is not fulfilling it's primary purpose. If your argument is "Unions wouldn't work here though because bad Unions don't protect employees" then that is a ridiculous stance to take. Cornell obviously isn't proposing that a bad Union be put in place.
One chief difficulty with the idea of unionization in both the games and comics industries, already alluded to above, is that there will never be a shortage of new people willing to "scab" for a chance to break into what they think is their dream career.
(Or you'd have the opposite problem, which is that if there were some sort of union for comic creators, it could just make it even harder for young creators and independents to break into the industry and get recognized, since in many heavily unionized fields the union only really benefits those with seniority to the detriment of the people on the low end of the food chain.)
A difficulty that can be overcome and isn't made worse by Unions. You guys have got it entirely wrong if you think the primary purpose of a Union is to strike. Unions hate striking, it's their last resort. The primary purpose of a Union is to ensure that all Union members can get their legal representation payed for in the case that they want to take the employee to court. That is 90% of what Unions do.
In this case I'm not even sure what wrong has been done that a union is needed to correct. A creator people liked lost her gig on a book. OK. Happens all the time. Sounds like they dropped the ball in giving her fair notice, which stinks. But we really have no idea what the causes were, and the creator herself told people to cool their outrage and that nobody is to blame or deserves to be vilified. What exactly are we grinding our axes over? We don't even know what the problem is here or even if a "problem" exists but we have people saying there needs to be unionization to solve it.
Unions don't exist to solve specific problems. They exist to protect employees in the long term against various problems. I don't think that comic writers should necessarily found a Union because they have any specific problem to overcome. I think they should found a Union to protect themselves from future issues, and also because I support labour unions as a good thing, and a balance to corporate interests.
I'm truly not trying to be snarky with this, but do you really expect a well-managed comic creator union? And where was anything illegal done with how Simone was fired? It was no different than how Dixon got tossed out of DC years ago, only in this case Simone seemed to be more loved by other creators and fans. And I definitely remember people crapping on Dixon for planning ahead on his book when Morrison was being Morrison and not keeping others in the loop with RIP.
You are assuming the Union would be run on a day to day basis by creators and not employment law professionals employed by the fees paid by Union members, which is how most professional Unions operate. And if Simone wasn't given the correct notice by her employer then she has grounds for issue. But even if she was, a Union discourages that kind of behaviour because when all of your popular writing talent is Unionized you tend to want to not piss them off, because it causes more trouble than it's worth.
But at this point I was foolish enough to get involved in a Union debate online so made my point and that's it.
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She was basically Leeroy Jenkins.
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Technically not everybody. The Image founders didn't like him very much. Larsen especially.
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I doubt it ever will honestly. It sold poorly and DC is horrible about collecting for trade.
http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Knight-Squire-Paul-Cornell/dp/1401230717
and I am not saying she isn't justified given how fucked up editorial policies are but at the same time
Greg Rucka did the same. Shouted his head off and then got kicked. Who was surprised? Only Rucka apparently.
Then again, I only follow her on twitter, not tumbler.
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Mike Nelson @themikecnelson
@GailSimone did you not put enough women in refrigerators or something?
GailSimone @GailSimone
@themikecnelson Funny you should say that.
So yeah, looks like Barbara is going to get refridgerated.
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Much more likely to be a supporting character
That's okay then. I mean, everyone's going to listen to her and not do that, right?
EVERYBODY WANTS TO SIT IN THE BIG CHAIR, MEG!
not that he's wrong, everyone should be in Unions
It feels like this whole thing it taking a weird turn where it's about the rights of a writer versus the company and less about a creator being fired from a book which happens all the time. Yes it was selling well like many other books, but the book wasn't that good, and it's not like DC hasn't given Simone plenty of opportunities to write other things. I don't know how much of this is Simone's online presence blurring people's objectivity or what, but the company has the right to hire and fire at their discretion. Don't like it? Make it be known by not buying the book with the new writer.
I mean of all the entertainment mediums, comics are really, really good about letting individuals put out what they want because it has very little investment compared to film or even music (and even that's lowered with youtube and garage band).
Though I'm not the biggest fan of hers, this is a pretty classy move.
Silly TexiKen, unions solve everything. Don't you read the Trenches comic discussion threads?
some of you guys seem to go crazy at the mere mention of them
Unions are villified by pretty much every major corporation and Republican in the country.
Which is silly but people are dumb sometimes what are you gonna do.
In this situation a union would have helped because they would undoubtedly have a contract clauses in place should editorial choose to remove an author from a book. So at least Simone would have money while in-between jobs( I'm assuming she's not on other books based in the conversation)
I just genuinely do not see how the creation of a comic union would benefit the industry as it stands today. Exclusive contracts give job security. Creators get credit/royalties for creations these days. Creator ownership comes down to the agreement for each company. If none of this appeals to you, creator owned is right there, and kickstarter and webcomics are always a click away.
Trying to kick creators off books in a union shop? Coupled with the inherent incestual nature of comics at the big 2? That would be a nightmare.
Oh, Solar.
The free market solves everything.
The invisible hand of the free market removed Simone from a book that was clearly under-performing, while making sure that the writers of books that are meeting expectations, such as Demon Knights, Ravagers, All-Star Western, Firestorm, Legion of Superheroes, Stormwatch, Batwing, Deathstroke, and Hawkman got to keep their jobs.
The system works!
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Also, it was just announced that Ray Fawkes is writing batgirl the month after Gail leaves but no word on whether or not he's staying.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
Glory be to Reagan etc
given how contentious the issue of creators right and royalties are these days I'd say a writer would be wise to protect themselves with Union membership
that kind of thing increases the ethical strength of an industry and, as a consumer, I like to be buying things made by people who are not knob-heads in general
Also a well-managed Union does not damage an industry. The whole point of Unions is to protect their members from illegal activities made by employers and so on. No law-abiding company has anything to fear from a strong but competent Union.
If by that you mean shake my head at the belief some people seem to have that they're a panacea, guilty I guess.
Much like any other business, the history of comics proves if someone has to backstab another be it a friend or fellow worker they'll do it for their own good.
By that I mean the fact that you just assumed anyone on the side of Unions think they solve all employment problems
which is a ridiculous assumption to make
it's like someone saying "we should legalize pot" and someone else saying "oh yeah because that'll solve all of societies problems!"
obviously not, and nobody suggested that they would
shake your head at people who thinks Unions are a Panacea if you wish
you aren't looking at anyone in this discussion, or Paul Cornell either for that matter
EVERYBODY WANTS TO SIT IN THE BIG CHAIR, MEG!
No, I'm not assuming that, but it does seem to be a common mentality. Seriously, I don't know if you read Trenches or any of the discussion threads about it on the Hub forum, but "Unions lol!" gets thrown out any time there is a particularly egregious games industry tale posted, usually with little or no thought put into whether it would actually solve the problem. Employees are getting a bad deal, therefore there needs to be a union. Unions protect employees, that is what unions do, right? Well, sometimes yes, sometimes no. It depends on the industry and union.
One chief difficulty with the idea of unionization in both the games and comics industries, already alluded to above, is that there will never be a shortage of new people willing to "scab" for a chance to break into what they think is their dream career.
(Or you'd have the opposite problem, which is that if there were some sort of union for comic creators, it could just make it even harder for young creators and independents to break into the industry and get recognized, since in many heavily unionized fields the union only really benefits those with seniority to the detriment of the people on the low end of the food chain.)
In this case I'm not even sure what wrong has been done that a union is needed to correct. A creator people liked lost her gig on a book. OK. Happens all the time. Sounds like they dropped the ball in giving her fair notice, which stinks. But we really have no idea what the causes were, and the creator herself told people to cool their outrage and that nobody is to blame or deserves to be vilified. What exactly are we grinding our axes over? We don't even know what the problem is here or even if a "problem" exists but we have people saying there needs to be unionization to solve it.
I'm truly not trying to be snarky with this, but do you really expect a well-managed comic creator union? And where was anything illegal done with how Simone was fired? It was no different than how Dixon got tossed out of DC years ago, only in this case Simone seemed to be more loved by other creators and fans. And I definitely remember people crapping on Dixon for planning ahead on his book when Morrison was being Morrison and not keeping others in the loop with RIP.
There was that business with Jim Starlin and Thanos' appearance in The Avengers.
And what's the current status quo with regards to royalties for digital reprints of Marvel and DC books?
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
As for royalties, I thought Marvel pays for a set amount of time (and I think digital is based on everything from 2009 forward or whenever they really started the digital thing), and DC seems to pay royalties in perpetuity, as long as it keeps being reprinted.
edit: googled this beat article during the digital slap fight a few years back, DC seems to say their digital stuff pays the same as print royalties.
Yes, you are. You did it right there, half the page up.
I don't read Trenches because it's by Sohmer and Sohmer is a piece of shit. I also don't go on the Hub forum. And since neither Sohmer and the Hub forum are in evidence then maybe you should have specified that is what you are talking about. And Unions do protect employees. That is the whole point of a Union. A Union that doesn't protect employees is not fulfilling it's primary purpose. If your argument is "Unions wouldn't work here though because bad Unions don't protect employees" then that is a ridiculous stance to take. Cornell obviously isn't proposing that a bad Union be put in place.
A difficulty that can be overcome and isn't made worse by Unions. You guys have got it entirely wrong if you think the primary purpose of a Union is to strike. Unions hate striking, it's their last resort. The primary purpose of a Union is to ensure that all Union members can get their legal representation payed for in the case that they want to take the employee to court. That is 90% of what Unions do.
Unions don't exist to solve specific problems. They exist to protect employees in the long term against various problems. I don't think that comic writers should necessarily found a Union because they have any specific problem to overcome. I think they should found a Union to protect themselves from future issues, and also because I support labour unions as a good thing, and a balance to corporate interests.
You are assuming the Union would be run on a day to day basis by creators and not employment law professionals employed by the fees paid by Union members, which is how most professional Unions operate. And if Simone wasn't given the correct notice by her employer then she has grounds for issue. But even if she was, a Union discourages that kind of behaviour because when all of your popular writing talent is Unionized you tend to want to not piss them off, because it causes more trouble than it's worth.
But at this point I was foolish enough to get involved in a Union debate online so made my point and that's it.
Trenches is by Mike, Jerry, and Scott Kurtz, you silly silly goose. What in the world do you think we're talking about?
http://trenchescomic.com/